Bereavement and children

checkyabadself · 03-08-2010 12:31PM #1

I was wondering what peoples views were on dealing with children who have lost a family member, with regard to the "heaven question" ?

I don't have children but I was wondering as to what I'd say to a child that asked where their loved one had gone?
I'm all for letting children believing in Santa as it is a harmless fantasy, but I am at a loss to think how I'd explain death to a child.
The heaven concept seems like one a child could comprehend and gain solace from, but I'd find it hard to consider that option as a white lie explanation. Id be interested to hear other opinions.

MagicMarker · 03-08-2010 12:39PM

I think saying to a child that someone has passed on is better than saying they're not in the ground rotting or they were burned to ashes.

God doesn't have to come into the equation, you don't have to use terms like heaven, but it doesn't really matter, the child will figure it all out on their own as they get older.

robindch · 03-08-2010 12:49PM

checkyabadself wrote: »

I was wondering as to what I'd say to a child that asked where their loved one had gone?

Probably a good idea to tell the truth -- that their bodies have returned to the ground from which they came, and that the star-stuff that made them up, will, sometime in the future, almost certainly be alive again in another person, plant, animal etc.

I don't think it's useful to pretend that the dead person's personality lives on in anything other than the memories (and words, pictures, videos, etc) left behind with the people who knew him or her.

Ickle Magoo · 03-08-2010 12:54PM

When I lost my first close relative, a grandparent, when I was 9 or 10 my dad explained that everything is made of the same material that was first created in the big bang. We are all made of the same stuff as stars and comets and planets and when we die, the materials that made us will go on and make lots of other things but us, as thinking people, cease to be.

I thought that faaaar cooler than the thought of ghosts congregating on a cloud. :cool:

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 12:55PM

robindch wrote: »

Probably a good idea to tell the truth -- that their bodies have returned to the ground from which they came, and that the star-stuff that made them up, will, sometime in the future, almost certainly be alive again in another person, plant, animal etc.

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

MagicMarker · 03-08-2010 01:01PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

We're only matter.

MagicMarker · 03-08-2010 01:02PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

When I lost my first close relative, a grandparent, when I was 9 or 10 my dad explained that everything is made of the same material that was first created in the big bang. We are all made of the same stuff as stars and comets and planets and when we die, the materials that made us will go on and make lots of other things but us, as thinking people, cease to be.

I thought that faaaar cooler than the thought of ghosts congregating on a cloud. :cool:

This is much cooler.

*makes note for future reference*

Just ignore my previous post.

Pygmalion · 03-08-2010 01:03PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

Well I for one have strong faith in the existence of nuclear fusion reactions in stars.
I also believe strongly that decaying organic matter can help the growth of plant-life.

magicbastarder · 03-08-2010 01:08PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

worth posting again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk

robindch · 03-08-2010 01:14PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

Er, no. Do you believe that we're not made from star-stuff and that memory of us won't live on in what we leave behind?

axer · 03-08-2010 01:19PM

It depends on the age of the child but there are some great books out there that get children who have suffered a bereavement to think about things for themselves. Often it is a good idea to ask the child what they think.

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 01:20PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

We're only matter.

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

MagicMarker · 03-08-2010 01:22PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

Erm, no, it's fact based.

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 01:26PM

robindch wrote: »

Er, no. Do you believe that we're not made from star-stuff and that memory of us won't live on in what we leave behind?

I'm not quite sure what "star-stuff" is to believe that we're not made from it.

I don't believe that what makes me up will become the raw material used in assembling someone else, if that's any help

If you do believe that then that's fine - it was the faith-based nature of the claim that struck me. Usually atheists here are so busy dismantling other faith systems they don't get around to making faith-based statements themselves.

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 01:29PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Erm, no, it's fact based.

Is there anything like a neutral body of repute who would back you up on that?

Dades · 03-08-2010 01:30PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't this all rather faith-based?

What are you made of then?

In the absence of any conflicting evidence you don't require faith to assume humans, like every other organic life form on the planet will decompose and cease to have a consciousness after death.

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 01:32PM

Pygmalion wrote: »

Well I for one have strong faith in the existence of nuclear fusion reactions in stars.

I also believe strongly that decaying organic matter can help the growth of plant-life.

Me too.

Presumably you go a step further in believing that personhoods consist solely of same?

MagicMarker · 03-08-2010 01:32PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is there anything like a neutral body of repute who would back you up on that?

Yes, it's called Science.

Just to clarify, you're asking for proof that we are all matter?

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 01:35PM

Dades wrote: »

What are you made of then?

No idea. For want of a way of determining that

In the absence of any conflicting evidence you don't require faith to assume humans, like every other organic life form on the planet will decompose and cease to have a consciousness after death.

We don't know anything about what occurs after death for any creature and so can't base our assumptions on that lack of knowledge. (blind) Faith is what you insert when you don't have evidence.

magicbastarder · 03-08-2010 01:37PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

We don't know anything about what occurs after death for any creature

am i missing something here? they rot, or are burned.

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 01:38PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Yes, it's called Science. Just to clarify, you're asking for proof that we are all matter?

Only matter would be more precise.

I suspect your first obstacles will be to arrive at a suitably objective location of the personhood itself (not the body) without tying yourself up in philosophical knots.

Somehow I doubt science would be foolhardy enough to pronounce on such a thing.

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 01:39PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

am i missing something here? they rot.

Do they or is that just their body? And how would you tell?

ColmDawson · 03-08-2010 01:39PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

No idea. For want of a way of determining that

We don't know anything about what occurs after death for any creature and so can't base our assumptions on that lack of knowledge. (blind) Faith is what you insert when you don't have evidence.

No, in this case we're speaking based on evidence (i.e. that we are matter) and then stopping just at the point (i.e. death) where Christians take up the baton and fill the evidence void with comforting fluff.

robindch · 03-08-2010 01:42PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what "star-stuff" is to believe that we're not made from it.

Here's a description of star-stuff, and why it makes us up:

http://365daysofastronomy.org/2009/02/10/february-10-we-are-all-star-stuff/

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't believe that what makes me up will become the raw material used in assembling someone else, if that's any help.

Ever been to London? (see question 9).

3DataModem · 03-08-2010 01:43PM

I suggest you take a look at the Sesame Street episode that dealt with the death of Mr Hooper.

The CTW refused to patronise children and had Maria simply tell Big Bird that he was dead and wasn't coming back.

Worth checking out on YouTube.

Dades · 03-08-2010 01:45PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

We don't know anything about what occurs after death for any creature and so can't base our assumptions on that lack of knowledge. (blind) Faith is what you insert when you don't have evidence.

Faith is what you insert when you make something up with no facts.

You don't have faith that the chicken you ate for lunch is not living in chicken heaven.

mehfesto · 03-08-2010 02:04PM

3DataModem wrote: »

I suggest you take a look at the Sesame Street episode that dealt with the death of Mr Hooper.

The CTW refused to patronise children and had Maria simply tell Big Bird that he was dead and wasn't coming back.

Worth checking out on YouTube.

Good luck trying to find it on YouTube. This clips says that Lionsgate own that clip and refuse for it to be shown on YouTube. Sesame Street Studios own everything else - except that clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkmr8lrzGuU

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 02:08PM

robindch wrote: »

Here's a description of star-stuff, and why it makes us up:

Thanks. But isn't that just kicking the faith statement up the pitch - it takes faith to believe that 'us' is merely the totality of atoms contained within the boundary of our skin.

Ever been to London?

I suppose the contents of our stomach could be held to be (temporaritly) part of us

antiskeptic · 03-08-2010 02:10PM

Dades wrote: »

Faith is what you insert when you make something up with no facts.

Like after death there is ... nothing?

ColmDawson · 03-08-2010 02:13PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Thanks. But isn't that just kicking the faith statement up the pitch - it takes faith to believe that 'us' is merely the totality of atoms contained within the boundary of our skin.

What? No. It takes nothing to stop short of faith. We're saying "We know this much from evidence-based study, and are not prepared to venture into the realm of making things up".

magicbastarder · 03-08-2010 02:14PM

i've seen no evidence within an ass's roar of being convincing to say there is life after death, so i just regard it as an assumption.

Bereavement and children

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