The 'punishment' of Jews

gbee · 28-07-2010 10:52AM

Bduffman wrote: »

This is the difficulty I often have when trying to understand why people remain in certain denominations. A person who has those views about Jews surely shouldn't call themselves a christian, never mind a catholic. Likewise, I have always been amazed at the amount of 'catholics' who don't believe in transubstantiation. But thats another topic. It just seems that some people don't understand their own religion & why they subscribe to it.

Well, put me here. I am a firm believer in it being child abuse to indoctrinate your own children into ANY religion.

I've recounted some of my experiences already, I decided at age 14 that there was no God ~ but I never did anything officially about it ~ and I aslo soon found that once another religion though you were 'free' they though it their mission in life to convert you to theirs. Ergo, I don't tend to reveal any more, 'tis just easier to say Catlick!

wolfsbane · 01-08-2010 05:34PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

It requires a nuanced answer. The forced dispersion of the Jewish nation from their homeland and their subsequent troubles down the ages has both a Divine and a human aspect.

Their national apostasy, cumulating in the murder of their Messiah and the persecution of His Church, brought God's wrath upon them. The nation was expelled from the land and kept out of it until recently, by God's command. He delivered them into the hands of their enemies.

However, the evil things done to them in their exile - supremely the Holocaust - are down to the evil in Gentile hearts. Men are commanded to be kind to the alien, not to afflict him. Christians especially are to love and care for them in their need. God administers His justice, but calls us to be part of His ministry of mercy.

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Bduffman · 01-08-2010 10:22PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

It requires a nuanced answer. The forced dispersion of the Jewish nation from their homeland and their subsequent troubles down the ages has both a Divine and a human aspect.

Their national apostasy, cumulating in the murder of their Messiah and the persecution of His Church, brought God's wrath upon them. The nation was expelled from the land and kept out of it until recently, by God's command. He delivered them into the hands of their enemies.

However, the evil things done to them in their exile - supremely the Holocaust - are down to the evil in Gentile hearts. Men are commanded to be kind to the alien, not to afflict him. Christians especially are to love and care for them in their need. God administers His justice, but calls us to be part of His ministry of mercy.

And just when I thought there might be some consensus on a subject by christians.
So Gods wrath was brought upon them. Yet the evil things done to them was due to the evil in mens hearts? But for god to bring his wrath upon them he would surely have to manipulate gentiles to make them carry out those evils things - no? What happened to free will?
And why didn't he just continue bringing his wrath a la the old testament instead of relying on evil gentiles? What happened to good old flooding & pestilence?

I'm sorry but how can any christian have such an opposing view to other christians? Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.

Fanny Cradock · 02-08-2010 12:36AM

Bduffman wrote: »

And just when I thought there might be some consensus on a subject by christians.

You show me one issue that 2 billion people are in total agreement on and then you may have a point.

JimiTime · 02-08-2010 12:16PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.

If you took that from Wolfbanes post, I would suggest you were just waiting for an excuse to play that card.

The Smurf · 03-08-2010 03:22AM

gbee wrote: »

We know now that Pork is a very unhealthy food and very hard to keep, ie, it goes off quickly and does not refrigerate or cure very well [in relation to other meats that is].

Bacon?

wolfsbane · 03-08-2010 06:48PM

Bduffman said:

So Gods wrath was brought upon them. Yet the evil things done to them was due to the evil in mens hearts? But for god to bring his wrath upon them he would surely have to manipulate gentiles to make them carry out those evils things - no?

Hatred, conquest, pillage, etc. is always in the sinner's heart. God unleashed a nation of sinners on that sinful generation of Jews.

What happened to free will?

Men freely did as they desired. That's free-will.

And why didn't he just continue bringing his wrath a la the old testament instead of relying on evil gentiles? What happened to good old flooding & pestilence?

Slaughter, enslavement and exile was God's ultimate punishment for the unfaithful nation - in both the OT and NT.

I'm sorry but how can any christian have such an opposing view to other christians? Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.

Many Christians agree with me on this, both historically and today. The texts I gave from the NT were written by Jewish Christians. And one of the books I have before me is written by a Jewish believer today, The Holocaust: Where Was God by A. Katz. In that he argues it was part of the judgement of God:
In summary, one has either to recognize the Holocaust as part of a continuum of covenantal discipline and judgement, not essentially unlike former catastrophes, or else one is obliged to reject the very category of judgement altogether.p89.

We love the Jewish people and seek their conversion. Many of us also support their national right to a State of their own in their historic land. Hardly a racist agenda.
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

Bduffman · 04-08-2010 10:50PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You show me one issue that 2 billion people are in total agreement on and then you may have a point.

I would have thought a religion that professes love could possibly agree on this one.

Bduffman · 04-08-2010 10:51PM

JimiTime wrote: »

If you took that from Wolfbanes post, I would suggest you were just waiting for an excuse to play that card.

No I wasn't "waiting for an excuse to play that card". But don't you agree?

Bduffman · 04-08-2010 11:02PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Bduffman said:

Hatred, conquest, pillage, etc. is always in the sinner's heart. God unleashed a nation of sinners on that sinful generation of Jews.

What about the 1940s generation of Jews. Were they sinful too?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Men freely did as they desired. That's free-will.

But for god to punish men by using other men, wouldn't he have to manipulate them to carry out those acts? And if he didn't manipulate them, then it wasn't him that was doing the punishing.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Slaughter, enslavement and exile was God's ultimate punishment for the unfaithful nation - in both the OT and NT.

But again, other men did the slaughtering & enslavement. Did god manipulate them to do so or did he not? Because either way destroys your argument.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Many Christians agree with me on this, both historically and today. The texts I gave from the NT were written by Jewish Christians. And one of the books I have before me is written by a Jewish believer today, The Holocaust: Where Was God by A. Katz.

Any other christian here want to agree with Wolfsbane? Can no one move yourselves enough to agree with an atheist against a fellow christian?

wolfsbane wrote: »

We love the Jewish people and seek their conversion. Many of us also support their national right to a State of their own in their historic land. Hardly a racist agenda.

Try telling a Jewish person that you llove them after you've to;d them that they are sinners in the eyes of gad & then come back to me & share their reply with us.

Fanny Cradock · 04-08-2010 11:36PM

Bduffman wrote: »

I would have thought a religion that professes love could possibly agree on this one.

You wont get 2 billion people to agree that black is black. We aren't some hive-mind working in unison.

Are you genuinely surprised that all professing Christians aren't in agreement? You will meet people who say and do all manner of outrageous stuff in the face of what they say they believe. It's all part of the human condition.

The Smurf · 04-08-2010 11:54PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You wont get 2 billion people to agree that black is black. We aren't some hive-mind working in unison.

Are you genuinely surprised that all professing Christians aren't in agreement? You will meet people who say and do all manner of outrageous stuff in the face of what they say they believe. It's all part of the human condition.

Division, heresy, and schism is a result of sins. Our Lord prayed that they all be one. He gave us a supreme shepherd on earth (the Pope, successor of St Peter) and He promised to guide us in ALL truth, not just some, or part of it, or most of it.... ALL of it. Wherever there is division or separation, sin is the cause. The Pope is the sign and servant of unity and our guarantee that we are following the right path of Our Blessed Lord, and the Magisterium teaches the faith and morals without error.

Fanny Cradock · 04-08-2010 11:57PM

I'm afraid I neither accept that nor see the relevance to this thread. Perhaps it is better suited to the mega-thread.

Cú Giobach · 05-08-2010 11:57AM

I was going to open a new thread with this point but saw this one and thought it might be appropriate here (if not please excuse me).

Christians believe Jesus came to earth in order to die for us, so by killing him the Jews were carrying out gods plan.
The Jewish people have been vilified for centuries as "christ killers" , This I have never been able to understand.
Why persecute someone for carrying out your own gods wishes????

gbee · 05-08-2010 12:13PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why persecute someone for carrying out your own gods wishes????

It's usually because of interpretation, it may suit some bishop or body to promote a twist in teachings for their own end.

The Judas story and Mary Magdalene are two other examples where emotional responses were elicited through emphatic teachings ~ ie, we MUST hate Judas [as we know, Judas was doing Christ's will].

We MUST outcast that prostitute Mary, [Mary Magdalene may in fact be the first Pope of Christ's church ~ note not the Roman Catholic Church].

As they say about some modern-day tabloids, 'the truth never got in the way of a good story'.

Bduffman · 05-08-2010 05:39PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You wont get 2 billion people to agree that black is black. We aren't some hive-mind working in unison.

Are you genuinely surprised that all professing Christians aren't in agreement? You will meet people who say and do all manner of outrageous stuff in the face of what they say they believe. It's all part of the human condition.

I would expect people to disagree on certain aspects of belief - as you say that is the human condition. But I don't see how two individuals can have completely polarising views (in this case on gods 'punishment' of Jews) and still both call themselves christian. They may both be human but christian...?

Incidently, if you strongly disagree with wolfsbane why don't you let him know? Wouldn't it help to let the more extremist amongst you know that they are in the minority?

wolfsbane · 05-08-2010 10:00PM

Bduffman said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Hatred, conquest, pillage, etc. is always in the sinner's heart. God unleashed a nation of sinners on that sinful generation of Jews.
What about the 1940s generation of Jews. Were they sinful too?

They were still in unbelief in their Messiah, so they were indeed sinners. And they were the same nation that violated the covenant God gave to Moses - therefore the inherited curses continue with them.

But you seem to think this view of God's dealing with the Jews is a medieval or modern invention by a lot of racists. Why have you not commented on the Biblical passages I posted? They are the plainest statements of the same teaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Men freely did as they desired. That's free-will.
But for god to punish men by using other men, wouldn't he have to manipulate them to carry out those acts? And if he didn't manipulate them, then it wasn't him that was doing the punishing.

Depends what you mean by manipulate. Did God make gentle souls think evil thoughts and put them in motion? No. Did God allow the evil in their hearts to settle on the idea of mass-murder of the Jews? Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Slaughter, enslavement and exile was God's ultimate punishment for the unfaithful nation - in both the OT and NT.
But again, other men did the slaughtering & enslavement. Did god manipulate them to do so or did he not? Because either way destroys your argument.

As above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
We love the Jewish people and seek their conversion. Many of us also support their national right to a State of their own in their historic land. Hardly a racist agenda.
Try telling a Jewish person that you llove them after you've to;d them that they are sinners in the eyes of gad & then come back to me & share their reply with us.

No need for me to give personal examples, the great examples are written down for us:
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

The religious establishment had a much different response:
Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
_________________________________________________________________
Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

wolfsbane · 05-08-2010 10:19PM

gbee wrote: »

It's usually because of interpretation, it may suit some bishop or body to promote a twist in teachings for their own end.

The Judas story and Mary Magdalene are two other examples where emotional responses were elicited through emphatic teachings ~ ie, we MUST hate Judas [as we know, Judas was doing Christ's will].

We MUST outcast that prostitute Mary, [Mary Magdalene may in fact be the first Pope of Christ's church ~ note not the Roman Catholic Church].

As they say about some modern-day tabloids, 'the truth never got in the way of a good story'.

I'm afraid you have imbibed the tabloid mentality. The Biblical teaching on Judas is plain:
Matthew 26:23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Where does the Bible tell us to reject Mary Magdalene? Or that she was a ruler in the church?
_________________________________________________________________
John 12:3 Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil.
4 But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, 5 “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

Bduffman · 05-08-2010 10:29PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

They were still in unbelief in their Messiah, so they were indeed sinners. And they were the same nation that violated the covenant God gave to Moses - therefore the inherited curses continue with them.

I don't believe your messiah. I haven't been punished (at least in this life

)

wolfsbane wrote: »

But you seem to think this view of God's dealing with the Jews is a medieval or modern invention by a lot of racists. Why have you not commented on the Biblical passages I posted? They are the plainest statements of the same teaching.

You expect an atheist to comment on unverified words from an ancient book that they don't believe in as if it were evidence backing your argument? How would that work exactly?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Depends what you mean by manipulate. Did God make gentle souls think evil thoughts and put them in motion? No. Did God allow the evil in their hearts to settle on the idea of mass-murder of the Jews? Yes.

So it was going to happen anyway because of the evil in their hearts? God just simply did nothing & allowed it to happen? But surelly he couldn't have stopped it as he would then be interfering in free will. See?

Look - in fairness at least you are being honest in your opinions. But why do you think no other christian here has backed you up? Their silence is deafening. Do you maybe think you an in a tiny minority?

CIE · 07-08-2010 07:51PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

That's certainly not a Christian doctrine; all humanity is guilty of the death of Christ.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Where does the Bible tell us to reject Mary Magdalene? Or that she was a ruler in the church?

Nowhere. Nor does the Bible say she was a prostitute or adultress; the only extraordinary thing mentioned about her is that Jesus cast seven demons out of her (Mark 16:9).

wolfsbane · 07-08-2010 08:31PM

Bduffman said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
They were still in unbelief in their Messiah, so they were indeed sinners. And they were the same nation that violated the covenant God gave to Moses - therefore the inherited curses continue with them.
I don't believe your messiah. I haven't been punished (at least in this life )

Are you the nation under the Mosaic covenant, and hence its curses? No, you are an individual. If you are a Jew, you might personally suffer national consequences, but the curse of the Law never fell on every individual, then or now.

You, like all mankind, Jew and Gentile, have an appointment with God after death. That's when you will give account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
But you seem to think this view of God's dealing with the Jews is a medieval or modern invention by a lot of racists. Why have you not commented on the Biblical passages I posted? They are the plainest statements of the same teaching.
You expect an atheist to comment on unverified words from an ancient book that they don't believe in as if it were evidence backing your argument? How would that work exactly?

I expect nothing of the sort. All I expect is you to accept this is Biblical teaching, not the aberration of some racist. You don't have to agree with the Bible's teaching to acknowledge what it actually teaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Depends what you mean by manipulate. Did God make gentle souls think evil thoughts and put them in motion? No. Did God allow the evil in their hearts to settle on the idea of mass-murder of the Jews? Yes.
So it was going to happen anyway because of the evil in their hearts? God just simply did nothing & allowed it to happen? But surelly he couldn't have stopped it as he would then be interfering in free will. See?

God frequently interferes with our 'free-will'. What He doesn't do is make innocent men think evil thoughts, much less carry them out. He decides what evil they will be permitted to do.

Look - in fairness at least you are being honest in your opinions. But why do you think no other christian here has backed you up? Their silence is deafening. Do you maybe think you an in a tiny minority?

I can't speak for anyone else here. Maybe they haven'y thought about it before.

From my reading of historic and contemporary Reformed Christianity, my view is the orthodox one.

It is also plainly the Biblical one, which is the important thing.

BTW, in case anyone thinks that judicial punishment on the Jews implies the Gentiles were not also guilty of murdering the Messiah, that is just as plainly stated in the Bible:
Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

The exemplary punishment on the Jews comes from their privileged position in God's dealings with mankind. They violated His covenant in the most wicked manner, killing the Son whom He had sent to them.
_________________________________________________________________
1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Bduffman · 08-08-2010 10:22PM

Does any other christian on this forum agree with Wolfsbane?

If other christians do not agree, how can any two christians have such completely opposite views? This is not just simply a difference in interpretation surely? Can it be as Wolfsbane says - that all of you just haven't thought about it before?

PDN · 08-08-2010 11:01PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Does any other christian on this forum agree with Wolfsbane?

If other christians do not agree, how can any two christians have such completely opposite views? This is not just simply a difference in interpretation surely? Can it be as Wolfsbane says - that all of you just haven't thought about it before?

I don't agree with Wolfsbane. I reject the idea that the Jews are under a curse (except, of course, the curse that all come under because of our own individual sins). My reasoning is that Jesus, on the Cross, prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I think it probable that God the Father would have answered the dying prayer of God the Son! Of course Wolfsbane maybe hasn't thought about this before.

Christians can hold opposite views on many subjects. We leave the groupthink stuff to others.

wolfsbane · 11-08-2010 09:37PM

PDN wrote: »

I don't agree with Wolfsbane. I reject the idea that the Jews are under a curse (except, of course, the curse that all come under because of our own individual sins). My reasoning is that Jesus, on the Cross, prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I think it probable that God the Father would have answered the dying prayer of God the Son! Of course Wolfsbane maybe hasn't thought about this before.

Christians can hold opposite views on many subjects. We leave the groupthink stuff to others.

The forgiveness may have been meant for the executioners rather than the rulers. Or maybe it did indeed cover all the individuals. But it is evident it did not cover the nation. Christ Himself and His apostles warned of the coming wrath and exile, as the passages I quoted show. Here's one more:The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers

Matthew 21:33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

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Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

CIE · 11-08-2010 10:12PM

But it is evident it did not cover the nation. Christ Himself and His apostles warned of the coming wrath and exile, as the passages I quoted show

No such thing is "evident". Claiming that Christ cursed the nation by contrast to his executioners is a false claim. His death would have been in vain if it weren't to save all nations. Does that make Paul's prayer in Romans 10:1 void?

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved."

Certainly not void.

wolfsbane · 12-08-2010 05:01PM

CIE said:

Quote:
But it is evident it did not cover the nation. Christ Himself and His apostles warned of the coming wrath and exile, as the passages I quoted show
No such thing is "evident". Claiming that Christ cursed the nation by contrast to his executioners is a false claim. His death would have been in vain if it weren't to save all nations. Does that make Paul's prayer in Romans 10:1 void?
Quote:
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved."
Certainly not void.

Indeed, certainly not void. But you go beyond what I said, for the curse does not end it all. Israel is to be redeemed from the curse, to be brought to repentance and faith. That is Paul's point.

NOW they are cut off, blinded, under God's wrath for their unbelief.

THEN they will be received again:
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Note too that it is the nation as a nation that is cut-off, not every individual in it. The elect Jews are a remnant of the nation. They are saved.

One day all of the nation as a whole will be the elect, and of course they will be saved.

BTW, the curse to which I refer is the one spoken of by Moses in the Law:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+28&version=NKJV

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Matthew 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”

drifting · 12-08-2010 11:30PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

One day all of the nation as a whole will be the elect, and of course they will be saved.

Unfortunately this is not true. The passage to which you refer has to be read in conjunction with:

Rom 9:6 "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Rom 9:7 "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Israel stands for those with faith. It is only those with faith that will be saved. Paul is not saying that all those Jews without faith will attain to faith.

Basically the reason that the Jews died in such large numbers in the holocaust was because they were extremely exposed politically and also intensely disliked, due to their lack of God centred religion and love of wealth, especially in Germany but also in Poland. Much Jewish religion became based in Kabbalistic mysticism, and much of it was just plain satanic, having regard to its explicit denunciation of Christ.

The European Jews were out on a limb, and woefully unprepared to defend themselves. Because of their inability to distinguish truth from falsehood and read the signs of the times, they became victims of Nazi deceit, and surrendered themselves to the endless Nazi lies and false promises. Basically Judaism became effectively a sucide cult in the context of Nazi Europe, just like the Jonestowntemple members, who never intended sucide when they went to Jonestown, became a suicide cult when faced with the orders of their murderous leaders.

They became unable to resist the murderers after years of swallowing false religion and disinformation.

SonOfAdam · 13-08-2010 01:14PM

drifting wrote:

Basically Judaism became effectively a sucide cult in the context of Nazi Europe, just like the Jonestowntemple members, who never intended sucide when they went to Jonestown, became a suicide cult when faced with the orders of their murderous leaders

Whether you think the holocaust is a result of a covenental curse as some do here or it has been used as a reason to inflict all sorts of misery on the jews the above statement cannot be let stand. You are not only blaming the jews for their fate at the hands of the nazi's but actually take it a step further by stating the holocaust was merely a self inflicted mass suicide akin to Jonestown. Thus, in a few strokes of a key pad vindicate the perpetrators of genocide and lay the blame squarely at the victims feet.

PDN · 13-08-2010 01:20PM

If this thread cannot be conducted without descending into anti-semitism then the thread will be locked and the offending posters banned.

Please take note that comparing Jews in Germany to a suicide cult, or implying that they were responsible in some way for the monstrosities inflicted on them, is considered highly offensive in most civilised company, and certainly so on this forum.

wolfsbane · 15-08-2010 05:48PM

drifting wrote: »

Unfortunately this is not true. The passage to which you refer has to be read in conjunction with:

Rom 9:6 "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Rom 9:7 "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Israel stands for those with faith. It is only those with faith that will be saved. Paul is not saying that all those Jews without faith will attain to faith.

Basically the reason that the Jews died in such large numbers in the holocaust was because they were extremely exposed politically and also intensely disliked, due to their lack of God centred religion and love of wealth, especially in Germany but also in Poland. Much Jewish religion became based in Kabbalistic mysticism, and much of it was just plain satanic, having regard to its explicit denunciation of Christ.

The European Jews were out on a limb, and woefully unprepared to defend themselves. Because of their inability to distinguish truth from falsehood and read the signs of the times, they became victims of Nazi deceit, and surrendered themselves to the endless Nazi lies and false promises. Basically Judaism became effectively a sucide cult in the context of Nazi Europe, just like the Jonestowntemple members, who never intended sucide when they went to Jonestown, became a suicide cult when faced with the orders of their murderous leaders.

They became unable to resist the murderers after years of swallowing false religion and disinformation.

You totally ignore that Paul specifically made the distinction between the believing remnant and the unbelieving majority, yet went on to say that that would change - one day all Israel would be saved, not just a remnant. He emphasises that the present case is temporary.

Some times Israel is indeed used of all the faithful, Jew and Gentile believers. But in Romans 11 it is used of the nation of the Jews alone.

I take what you say about Israel's moral and intellectual disabilities in the face of the Nazis.
B]I'm sure you agree that does not make the Nazis any the less culpable for the mass-murder of the Jewish people.[/B
Such a spiritual condition is to be expected in their unbelieving state. But Paul's point is that their contrariness, etc. is only temporary. One day God is going to visit them:
Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

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Isaiah 59:9 Therefore justice is far from us,
Nor does righteousness overtake us;
We look for light, but there is darkness!
For brightness, but we walk in blackness!
10 We grope for the wall like the blind,
And we grope as if we had no eyes;
We stumble at noonday as at twilight;
We are as dead men in desolate places.

The 'punishment' of Jews

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