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The 'punishment' of Jews

  • 27-07-2010 12:07PM
    #1
    Bduffman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭


    Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
    I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
    And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

    What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.


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Comments

  • #2
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Bduffman wrote: »
    why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

    What do you mean "more rigorously"?

    Most Christians live in democracies where free speech is permitted. They are not in a position to censor such claims, even if they wanted to.


  • #3
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Bduffman wrote: »
    Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
    I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
    And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

    What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

    No doubt it exists but I've never encountered such opinions. I would have a chat with them if I did. Still, I'm not sure the drunken ramblings of someone at a party is the a good basis for me to start quizzing Christians about the Holocaust and denouncing them if they have messed up opinions.

    I would be surprised if the vast majority of denominations (OK, there are probably some nasty KKK churches in the deep South or some such) didn't see the death and resurrection as necessary and ultimately a glorious thing.


  • #4
    Bduffman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Bduffman


    Wicknight wrote: »
    What do you mean "more rigorously"?

    Most Christians live in democracies where free speech is permitted. They are not in a position to censor such claims, even if they wanted to.

    I wasn't suggesting they should censor such claims. Only that they clarify their position on the matter - seeing as some members of their flock seem to have the wrong end of the stick.


  • #5
    Bduffman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Bduffman


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    No doubt it exists but I've never encountered such opinions. I would have a chat with them if I did.
    As I've said, I have encountered such opinions but never from someone who I thought was reasonably 'normal'. Thats why I was taken aback at the time.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Still, I'm not sure the drunken ramblings of someone at a party is the a good basis for me to start quizzing Christians about the Holocaust and denouncing them if they have messed up opinions.
    I'll pass on your comments to the relevant person who brought it up. But as I already stated, there was no denouncing of opinion - just awkward silence & a quick change of subject. Personally I'm never quite sure how to react to such outlandish opinions.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I would be surprised if the vast majority of denominations (OK, there are probably some nasty KKK churches in the deep South or some such) didn't see the death and resurrection as necessary and ultimately a glorious thing.
    Thats what I thought - I was just curious if (a) it is an official line (which I presume from your answer it isn't) and (b) how widespread that opinion is. Of course it could just simply be good old-fashioned racism. (Incidentally the person is RC).


  • #6
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    Bduffman wrote: »
    Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this..

    Well, it is fairly well known, as is why the Jews won't eat meat.

    As a boy in a typical Irish Catholic Education since starting school in 1959/60 I was TOLD by the women in black that 'God' had imposed a curse on the Jews and this is the reason they've been hunted and persecuted everywhere they went.

    Mind you, I was also told of Adam & Eve, later only to be LAUGHED at when they suddenly dropped this story altogether. [Started my questioning of my beliefs, but that's going OT].

    I was also told that the Jews would not eat pork because Christ cast the devil into the pig during one of his miracles ~ or something like that. We know now that Pork is a very unhealthy food and very hard to keep, ie, it goes off quickly and does not refrigerate or cure very well [in relation to other meats that is].


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  • #7
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Bduffman wrote: »
    I wasn't suggesting they should censor such claims. Only that they clarify their position on the matter - seeing as some members of their flock seem to have the wrong end of the stick.

    What is to clarify?

    I'm not a Christian, but I think the mistake would be to assume this is some how the Christian position in the first place, considering that the vast majority of the Christian position is based on the Bible which was written 2000 years before the holocaust.

    You aren't going to find a passage in the Bible saying God ordered the destruction of the Jews by the Germans because of the death of Jesus because it hadn't happened yet.

    So the question becomes why would someone think this is the Christian position in the first place?

    Is it just because some Christians believe this? If that is the case the question is why do those Christians believe this and what are they basing that on, cause it ain't the Bible.


  • #8
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Bduffman wrote: »
    Thats what I thought - I was just curious if (a) it is an official line (which I presume from your answer it isn't) and (b) how widespread that opinion is. Of course it could just simply be good old-fashioned racism. (Incidentally the person is RC).

    (a) It isn't (b) have heard that reasoning before but only in the satirical sense, never seriously being put forward as an actual serious point. I am sure there probably are some who hold it, somewhere, probably as Fanny mentioned, areas in the southern US.

    The next time they say it mention the fact that often the Jews were victimised because of other people's stupidity. Let the awkward silence hang.


  • #9
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Bduffman wrote: »

    Thats what I thought - I was just curious if (a) it is an official line (which I presume from your answer it isn't) and (b) how widespread that opinion is. Of course it could just simply be good old-fashioned racism. (Incidentally the person is RC).

    I'm sure there is an official line amongst denominations. For example, I seem to recall the RCC has said addressed the Jew's part in Jesus' death which amounted to them saying, "Stop the Jew hatin', folks." But as a non-denominational Christian, perhaps I'm not the best to be asking. Of course, official doctrine aside, one simply has to point out to your party buddy that Jesus, Peter, Paul, James etc., etc., were all Jews.

    Actually, just came across this after typing the above. The article doesn't directly address official reactions to the reasons for the Holocaust (I would assume the concise response would be "it happened because of sin") but perhaps one can take the core message - that Jews weren't at fault, people were - and apply this to any suggestion that the Holocaust was payment for Jesus' death. The Holocaust happened because a angry, power hungry little Austrian ****head with bad facial hair was able to stoke the fires of anti-Semitism.


  • #10
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    The story more or less as I was told: God sent Moses in a basket to free the enslaved Jews.

    Said Jews escaped, but despite miracles of seas parting and burning bushes, they were an impatient peoples and some of their 'cities' were destroyed by the wrath of God. The cities refers to Sodom and Ghomerra. This was taught in Catholic Primary Schools in Ireland.

    The Jews more or less found their 'promised lands' and survived there despite what could be described as world wars between the major world powers, even invasion from Egypt [their former capturers to build the Pyramids ** we now know this to be incorrect] and other invasions in this very strategic area, right up to Roman times where the Jews were privileged to govern themselves, provided it did not contravene Roman Law, and they paid their taxes to Rome.

    Under Roman Law, Christ, at least one of them vying for the title of Messiah, was committing no offence, but the Jews persevered and even paid off one or more of Christ's supported to betray him to Rome and force his execution.

    Since then until 1948 the Jews had been [once again] scattered to the four corners of the earth and persecuted everywhere they went.

    Thus endeth my lessons.


  • #11
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    The Holocaust happened because a angry, power hungry little Austrian ****head with bad facial hair was able to stoke the fires of anti-Semitism.

    Under new findings, Hitler had not ordered the Holocaust. But he, nonetheless, set the stage whereby it occurred.


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  • #12
    losthorizon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    So what offence had the Armenians commited? (The picture is of the Armenian Genocide memorial in Yerevan which I took two years ago on my holidays).

    As Hitler said "who remembers the Armenians now".

    Or indeed why did so many irish people die during the Famine.

    Stalin killed over a million Ukrainian farmers - were they all evil and deserving of death?


  • #13
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    losthorizon wrote: »
    Or indeed why did so many irish people die during the Famine.

    Many reasons.

    Too large families, twenty, twenty five children was not uncommon, a typical family would be 12/14 children.

    Too small a holding for survival.

    Too limited a diet.

    There was PLENTY of food in Ireland but it was sent to England in taxes and rents.

    The Catholic Church banned sex, except for the purpose of procreation and banned contraception outright.

    The Church ordered the child to be saved, resulting in many families having only a father.


  • #14
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    gbee wrote: »
    The story more or less as I was told: God sent Moses in a basket to free the enslaved Jews.

    Said Jews escaped, but despite miracles of seas parting and burning bushes, they were an impatient peoples and some of their 'cities' were destroyed by the wrath of God. The cities refers to Sodom and Ghomerra. This was taught in Catholic Primary Schools in Ireland.

    I very much doubt you were taught the above. Seeing how Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed before there was any such thing as 'Jews'. I'm no fan of the RCC, but I don't think they're that stupid.


  • #15
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I very much doubt you were taught the above. Seeing how Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed before there was any such thing as 'Jews'. I'm no fan of the RCC, but I don't think they're that stupid.

    Roman numerials?! They didn't even try to teach us that at school
    Bart Simpson

    Obscure The Simpsons reference :P


  • #16
    losthorizon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    gbee wrote: »
    Many reasons.

    Too large families, twenty, twenty five children was not uncommon, a typical family would be 12/14 children.

    Too small a holding for survival.

    Too limited a diet.

    There was PLENTY of food in Ireland but it was sent to England in taxes and rents.

    The Catholic Church banned sex, except for the purpose of procreation and banned contraception outright.

    The Church ordered the child to be saved, resulting in many families having only a father.

    I know the factual reasons why so many Irish people died during the famine. I'm was just pointing out that the deathrate of so many Irish people at that time was no more A PUNISHMENT from god than than the genocide of the Jews.

    BTW I doubt if god exists at all.


  • #17
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I very much doubt you were taught the above. Seeing how Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed before there was any such thing as 'Jews'. I'm no fan of the RCC, but I don't think they're that stupid.

    Maybe it is me that was stupid.

    Don't forget that this was my education in 1959 onwards. These were the peoples that Moses had saved from the Egyptians. Disillusioned with Moses's disappearance up the mountain to the burning bush, they turned to craven images and false Gods and engaged in debauchery.

    This would have been spewed from the pulpit during Missions too, as a young boy I'd have to attend men only missions. By the time you were finished with these guys and their gestures, just like you'd see in film actually, you'd believe anything.

    It was also a time when we'd kneel down in the road as the Angelus Rang out at mid-day. I have a few very vivid memories of those times.


  • #18
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    losthorizon wrote: »
    I know the factual reasons why so many Irish people died during the famine. I'm was just pointing out that the deathrate of so many Irish people at that time was no more A PUNISHMENT from god than than the genocide of the Jews.

    BTW I doubt if god exists at all.

    Gotcha. Good point too actually. :)


  • #19
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    gbee wrote: »
    It was also a time when we'd kneel down in the road as the Angelus Rang out at mid-day. I have a few very vivid memories of those times.

    I'm sure you do, gbee. But this thread is about something else.


  • #20
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I'm sure you do, gbee. But this thread is about something else.

    Yes, and I hope it points out what was taught, 50 years ago, and it sounds like the OP is a much younger person, and one of his friends, who would not have been taught this in school, still has a similar viewpoint.

    If that's going OT, I apologise. Thanks.


  • #21
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    gbee wrote: »


    Don't forget that this was my education in 1959 onwards. These were the peoples that Moses had saved from the Egyptians. Disillusioned with Moses's disappearance up the mountain to the burning bush, they turned to craven images and false Gods and engaged in debauchery.

    That was still nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah. Sodom and Gomorrah was before there was any such thing as 'Jews' as there was NO tribes of Israel yet. Jacob (The father of the 12 tribes of Israel, which included Judah whose decendents are called Jews ) had not been born at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    There was indeed a purging of those who turned from God after the Golden Calf incident, but nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah.


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  • #22
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    gbee wrote: »
    I was also told that the Jews would not eat pork because Christ cast the devil into the pig during one of his miracles ~ or something like that.

    Either you weren't paying attention in class or else you went to a very 'special' school.


  • #23
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    PDN wrote: »
    Either you weren't paying attention in class or else you went to a very 'special' school.

    Which means?


  • #24
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    That the dietary laws existed long before Jesus. This goes back right to the time of Moses.


  • #25
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    gbee wrote: »
    Which means?

    That what you are saying you were taught is about as close to Christianity as The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is. Which means you picked it up wrong, or who ever was teaching your Christianity was making it up as they went along


  • #26
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    OP: I find the reasoning flawed, as I believe that Jesus had to die in order for our sins to be forgiven. If it had to happen anyway, it seems a bit gratuitous to say that the blame extends to generations far beyond Jesus'


  • #27
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Which means you picked it up wrong, or who ever was teaching your Christianity was making it up as they went along

    I'd hazard a guess at the second. The inevitable result of having teachers, particularly in primary teaching a religion many no little about. I too remember hearing something similar concerning Jesus, the herd of swine and Jews eating pork (must have been in primary school) and it wasn't as long ago as the 1950's/1960's :eek:

    Which is why religion should be taken out of primary schools altogether.


  • #28
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    prinz wrote: »
    I'd hazard a guess at the second. The inevitable result of having teachers, particularly in primary teaching a religion many no little about. I too remember hearing something similar concerning Jesus, the herd of swine and Jews eating pork (must have been in primary school) and it wasn't as long ago as the 1950's/1960's :eek:

    Which is why religion should be taken out of primary schools altogether.

    Bloody hell, thats attrocious. Was it a nun or brother that taught you that, or was it just a regular teacher? It seems obvious that it was a regular teacher, but I'm just making sure.


  • #29
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Bloody hell, thats attrocious. Was it a nun or brother that taught you that, or was it just a regular teacher? It seems obvious that it was a regular teacher, but I'm just making sure.

    Must have been a regular teacher. No religious in my primary. I'm 90% sure it must have been in school, may have heard it somewhere else but I have no idea where else I would have heard something like that.


  • #30
    Slav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Slav


    This is actually one of the favourite jokes of Israeli tour guides. When talking about lake Kinneret being a strategic resource for the region as a source of fresh water they like to say something in the lines of "thanks God our rabbis don't read the New Testament and don't know that Jesus cast a herd of swine there; otherwise they would immediately ban our tap water as non-kosher".


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  • #31
    Bduffman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Bduffman


    Wicknight wrote: »
    What is to clarify?

    I'm not a Christian, but I think the mistake would be to assume this is some how the Christian position in the first place, considering that the vast majority of the Christian position is based on the Bible which was written 2000 years before the holocaust.
    I didn't assume anything - I just asked a question. I thought this would be a good place to get an answer.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    You aren't going to find a passage in the Bible saying God ordered the destruction of the Jews by the Germans because of the death of Jesus because it hadn't happened yet.
    No, but you possibly will find something there that racists can use to demonise Jews.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    So the question becomes why would someone think this is the Christian position in the first place?
    Because a christian said it so I thought it was possible that it could be an official line. I personally didn't think it was & the replies on this thread confirms that.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Is it just because some Christians believe this? If that is the case the question is why do those Christians believe this and what are they basing that on, cause it ain't the Bible.
    This is the difficulty I often have when trying to understand why people remain in certain denominations. A person who has those views about Jews surely shouldn't call themselves a christian, never mind a catholic. Likewise, I have always been amazed at the amount of 'catholics' who don't believe in transubstantiation. But thats another topic. It just seems that some people don't understand their own religion & why they subscribe to it.


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