If stopped by a guard can you ask them for ID?

cushtac wrote: »

I said that the instances of people impersonating uniformed Gardaí are rare enough not to make an obligation to produce id a necessity. I did not say that criminals using such an obligation is a reason for not introducing it, I said that they would be using it to frustrate Gardaí.

So what? Just because criminals would use it to frustrate AGS does not mean that the public should not be entitled to ask for ID. That argument is as ridiculous as my example of the cars

It would hardly be 'giving in' to criminals, it would simply be common sense.

No it wouldn't be common sense. Just because crims would use it to frustrate you does not mean ordinary members of the public should suffer.

Your argument about cars is ridiculous & bares no relation to what we're talking about. Cars are a necessity for the public and depriving them of such would cause unnecessary hardship, a requirement for uniformed Gardaí to produce id is most definitely not a necessity and 'depriving' the public of it won't make any difference to their lives.

Agreed

1. It happens very, very rarely.
2. If people don't know what it looks like then how would the production of an ID be an extra layer of security? You could produce any sort of official-looking card with 'Garda' written on it, along with your counterfeit uniform, and it would be accepted.

So what if it happens rarely? It only needs to happen once on a dark road at night and for someone to get hurt for it to matter.

I've no problem with point 2 either but again at least with an ID, if the ID number matches the garda epaulette numbers and the name on the ID is visible then a member of the public can phone the station and ask:

'Do you have a Garda Joe Bloggs, number D724 working at your station?'
Hey presto, problem solved, now I can cooperate fully with this strange man who stopped me on a dark lonely road in the middle of the night claiming to be a Garda.

By making sure that the number matches to a name on an ID it's less likely that someone can get away with faking being a Garda. Not impossible but less likely.

It would lead to numerous spas resisting arrest by uniformed Gardaí because 'they wouldn't show me their ID'.

So why not just show the ID? Right now hey can claim that they weren't satisfied as to identity because of what is outlined below

DublinWriter wrote: »

Considering the recent extra-curricular activities of a member working out of Pearse St. in selling official uniforms to a theatrical outfitter (it hit the national papers before you consider the lock), I'd ask anybody claiming to be an attested member of AGS to produce 'the flash' when stopped.

This is why an ID with the name of the Garda printed on it should be shown, that way it's verifiable.


By the way, despite all of my arguments, I have never had any reason to ask a Garda for his/her ID not do I think I'd bother but it IS an interesting debate and I feel that on balance a Garda should have to show ID when requested.

First things first, I have seen a Garda ID, many times, I know what they look like and what to look for but I agree and have stated that most people won't know what it looks like

Again, were back to how you could verify an id you've never seen.

That's no argument for not being obliged to show ID when asked. Most people have never seen an ESB ID so why does the law require an 'ESB' man to show his ID? Anyone can make up an ESB or Charity ID ffs, even more simply than a fake Garda ID. People can't verify that but the law still says they must show it...

cushtac wrote: »

Again, I never made that argument.

So why mention it if you aren't using it as an argument? What is it if it's not your argument? It's a statement of fact that you seem to be using as an reason why Gardaí should not have to show ID. That's an argument.

How is it suffering? How much better do you think your life is going to be by having the right to ask uniformed Gardaí for an ID badge you've never seen before?

Easing my mind. If a simple ESB man with no authority invested by the state has to show ID then surely a figure of authority should have to show it, after all any clown can get hold of a uniform (so it seems).

If you agree it won't make a difference to the lives of the public why look for it?

Why not? Why so resistant? What are you afraid of?

And if it happened on a dark road at night how exactly would the production of an ID make a difference?

Shoulder numbers are already visible on uniforms, so there's nothing stopping you ringing the station and asking about the Garda as it is.

Ah but if the ID has the Garda name on it then I have TWO pieces of information to work with. Then I can ask the station 'Do you have Garda Joe Bloggs with number 123 working at your station? If I just have a number then so what, this impersonator could easily have seen a Garda with those numbers walking around town and copied them. Then I ring the station, ask about Garda 123 only to be told that yes Garda 123 is a legitimate number, and then obey the 'Garda' when he asks me to step out of my car, only to be beaten, raped, murdered, set alight, chopped into little pieces and eaten...all because I couldn't associate a name with the number.

Now I could ring the station and ask for the name associated with Garda 123 but how would I match that with this 'Garda' if he refused to give me his name? Am I entitled to ask a Garda for his name?

How is it less likely if you don't know what the ID looks like?

Again, if the name does not match the number then I would get worried and again, we're back to the ESB man, how do I verify the legitimacy of that?

Why should I have to? I'm a uniformed Garda carrying out my duties in accordance with law, I should not have to impede the execution of my duties any further by having to produce id while in uniform. It is not done in any other police force that I am aware of and there's no need for it here.

Hey, in some developing countries the police don't even need real evidence of suspicion to detain someone, does that mean that you should be allowed to do that here? Nope, so why use other countries as an example here?

What are you afraid of? Why the fear of showing ID? You should be accountable BOTH as a public servant and someone in a position of authority.


/Oh and I've no beef with AGS whatsoever, this is simply an interesting argument for me that I'd like to tease out. I'm not a fight the powah type...if I was I probably wouldn't be an Admin on this site

k_mac wrote: »

I was not aware the law required ESB men to show ID. Which law is this?

Sorry, I misread something posted earlier but apparently we are all urged by safety groups and AGS to question the identity of people claiming to represent an organisation but that doesn't appear to extend to a person that happens to wear a uniform that looks almost identical to a Garda uniform.

It was also my understanding that an ESB worker can enter any property in order to perform maintenance on ESB equipment. This is a power vested in them which the Gardaí do not have.

Fair enough, hence the advice to ask for ID. However, again, most people wouldn't know an ESB ID if they saw one so anyone can produce a laminated card with a logo on it, don a high-vis jacket and enter a property. If that's the case, why advise to ask for ID?

Its as simple as this. If a garda in uniform makes a demand on you under any lawful authority to provide your name, be it the Road Traffic Act or Public Order Act, he will not wait around for 20 minutes while you ring around checking his credentials.

Why? Do you suggest then that if you have a suspicion that someone is pretending to be a Garda that you should just follow their instructions just because they are wearing a uniform that has power invested in it?

There is a power vested in the uniform as well as the person that is why there are laws against copying it or impersonating him.

So if the person isn't a Garda, their uniform gives them power?? Ridiculous imo. That doesn't seem right.

I have no problem giving my name and station to a person and they can see my uniform and my shoulder numbers all the time. That is plenty of identification.

Well that makes you a good, decent Garda so but not all Gardaí are like you. I know Gardaí (friends of mine) who tell me that they refuse to give details and when asked, enjoy making life difficult for the person who asked. A law making it a requirement to provide such info when requested would go a long way towards changing that behaviour.

I find it laughable that you think a person who wants to kill you will got through the effort of getting a uniform and allow you to foil there plan by asking for I.D. Do you really think it would make any difference whatsoever?

Not really It's a ridiculous scenario BUT as has been said several times in this thread, there HAVE been incidences of people wearing official Garda uniforms (apparently having some sort of power vested in it...) who were not Gardaí but apparently those incidences aren't enough to convince AGS members that it might be wise to have a law requiring them to show ID.

When will it be enough? How many incidences does there need to be? Do we need to have someone killed? Maybe severely beaten? Perhaps if a Garda gets fooled by it and killed then you might consider it.

I ask again, what are AGS members so afraid of? Why is this idea such a problem? What is the issue with such accountability?

k_mac wrote: »

And I ask again what difference do you think it will make?

r3nu4l wrote: »

I ask again, what are AGS members so afraid of? Why is this idea such a problem? What is the issue with such accountability?

Stalemate?

Bosco boy wrote: »

Maybe everyone should wear Id, judges, barristors, priests, Esb men, doctors, gaurds, milkmen, prostitutes etc - would that make you feel better?

Only if they're going to turn up at my door unexpectedly.

murrayp4 wrote: »

If you're a member of AGS I'd be a little bit more careful about what you post on a public forum like this.

Is that a threat?

skelliser wrote: »

Christ, People will try and bash the gaurds at any opportunity!!

i think every single person in ireland should have an ID card and a surgicaly implanted chip with gps information so i can log on and see where some of the twits on this thread are and avoid any contact with them.

Just join the Garda instead and save the cost of 6 million GPS implants.

cushtac wrote: »

No, they have a legal obligation to do so. There is no such legal obligation on uniformed Gardaí.

Is this debate about defining A or B :

A:
Uniformed Gardai are employed workers. They are required to show ID in the correct cirumstances to the appropiate person.

or

B:
Uniformed Gardai are not obliged to show their ID just to any random person who happens to ask out of curiosity or as a nuisance or when it is not required in that particular circumstance.

Thoie wrote: »

The only caveat is that if I'm actively in labour and a baby is crowning, I reserve the right to be less polite.

Fine have your baby, i'm not stopping you.

Thoie wrote: »

Which law requires me to give all my personal details to a garda during a routine stop? If he can explain the grounds on which he has found my behaviour suspicious, and under which act I'm required to provide this information, then yes, I will, as is my duty, give him my personal details.

Just personal details required by law, i don't want to know your shoe size or favorite colour. I just said personal details required by law, lets say, name address even date of birth? Gardai have numerous instances where they can legally demand name and address from someone from searches to public order to fishing & firearms. How about a 'routine traffic stop' Section 109 of the Road Traffic Act allows Gardai to stop vehicles and they could then say "I am now lawfully demanding production of ummm... your driving licence under section 40 of the road traffic act 1961 as amended." Thats fairly run of the mill and theres your major personal details legally obtained on a routine stop right there.

Thoie wrote: »

whether he's found my behaviour suspicious, I will happily answer generic questions (such as "Have you been drinking?") politely and honestly.

Thats great.

Thoie wrote: »

a few question in return. As a law abiding garda, who is not required to produce ID, if you were knocking on someone's door at an unusual time, for a reason other than to arrest them, would you be willing to show some ID, or provide the person with some other means of verifying that you're a Garda? This would be as a courtesy, not because you are legally required to, obviously.

I regularly knock on folks doors between 12md and 6am week in, week out, about various incidents (emergencies and mundane) and have never produced an ID card, nor have been asked to. The word GARDA on the front of my uniform, along with the rest of my gear and equipment, patrol car etc.... along with what i'm there for seems to suffice. I suppose if i were to carry the ID along with all the other equipment and gear uniform members are supposed to carry i would politely produce it if someone asked me, if i didn't i wouldn't be too bothered as i'm not obliged to and would continue to do my job regardless. I'm unaware of any police service in the world that has its uniform members must produce ID if in uniform when dealing with people.

Thoie wrote: »

, what is the purpose of Garda ID if it's not to be shown to any member of the public?

Garda ID is to be produced if working plain clothes duties or off duty. If i'm not wearing a uniform and engage with someone i will all too happily produce identification.