If stopped by a guard can you ask them for ID?

Bosco boy · 23-07-2010 04:10PM

CraftWork wrote: »

fair play to you there

I forgot, that also applies to abnoxious protestors as well!:D

CraftWork · 23-07-2010 04:15PM

Bosco boy wrote: »

I forgot, that also applies to abnoxious protestors as well!:D

what do you mean by this?

Butch Cassidy · 23-07-2010 07:35PM

The Highwayman wrote: »

Just a question.
What a guard must show me as a form of identification other than the numbers on uniform?
Name? Business card? Warrent card?
Thanks

They carry and ID card that's about the size of a credit card.

r3nu4l wrote: »

I'm not being funny and I'm going to try and find a link but there has been at least one case in Ireland where an unmarked 'Garda' car with blue strobes have pulled over truck drivers and a 'uniformed' Garda then produced a weapon and the truck contents stolen (I think it may have been an Intel truck).

The majority of the public would not be able to identify slight flaws in the 'Garda' uniform that a serving or former AGS member would.

Why is a Garda not obliged to show ID?* Wouldn't that make at least some sense.

*I recognise too that most members of the public also wouldn't recognise a Garda ID but that's no reason not to make it obligatory for a Garda to show ID when asked (imo). A uniform does not guarantee anything.

I've encountered the flashing blue lights car driving behind you down a rural road late at night in the dark. Upon ringing the local Garda station to ask if they'd a car in the area they said no they didn't.

pirelli · 23-07-2010 07:42PM

cushtac wrote: »

What are the right circumstances and where are you getting this obligation from?

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/...__station..jpg

Section 2.

Obligation: In response to an earlier post from another poster.

Keep up the good work.

MagicSean · 23-07-2010 08:14PM

CraftWork wrote: »

why not indymedia? he quotes the law.I do not know him and am not for or against indymedia Are you afraid someone might find their rights and stand up to bully garda. You are right the letter link does say not in all circumstances but the article makes it plain. Unless you can quote law that contradicts that?

if you ask a garda who stops you their name they have to tell you. simple as

never heard of freeman till now but if anything there stops people being abused by cops i will read it

He hasn't quoted any law that obliges production of ID. He has quoted Garda practice which is mentioned in the letter. The only law that obliges gardaí to produce ID on demand that I am aware of is the Road Traffic Act and that is only for plain clothes gardaí when they stop a vehicle. The rest of the article is useless and will only result in someone who follows it ending up before the courts.

Thoie wrote: »

Serious question - two strange men approach you at night when you're on your own, or they knock on your door, or they wave your car down. You agree that the uniforms certainly look like Garda uniforms from where you're standing/sitting, but would it really be unreasonable to ask for some ID to be sure? If a guy wearing a Bord Gais, or an ESB uniform knocked on your door when you weren't expecting them would you open the door to them without ID?

If they can replicate a uniform to fool you what makes you think you can authenticate an id you know nothing about?

Butch Cassidy · 23-07-2010 08:24PM

nice guy always wrote: »

Members in plain clothes must, on request, produce their ID cards (most off duty members will carry their ID with them).

In regards uniform members, you are obliged by law to consider them members of AGS. You can request to see their ID......but there is no obligation on them to show you it.

In regards the ID card its self. You wont get a photo of it anywhere.....but when its produced you'll know it.....

What of instances where uniformed members of AGS have removed or hidden their ID numbers on their shoulder and/or removed part of their uniform so that they're only wearing the trousers, blue shirt and tie and wielding a truncheon? Are they considering "uniformed" or plain clothes for they have no Garda identification showing.

Thoie · 23-07-2010 11:49PM

k_mac wrote: »

If they can replicate a uniform to fool you what makes you think you can authenticate an id you know nothing about?

Because you can then ring their station before letting them in and say "Is k_mac 7'10 with arms like hams and baby blue eyes?" Then if the station has never heard of k_mac, or he doesn't fit that description, you're already on the phone to the gardaí, and if they say that's him, you can thank the station for their time, and then open the door to k_mac and thank him for waiting.

Hooch · 25-07-2010 03:45PM

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

What of instances where uniformed members of AGS have removed or hidden their ID numbers on their shoulder and/or removed part of their uniform so that they're only wearing the trousers, blue shirt and tie and wielding a truncheon? Are they considering "uniformed" or plain clothes for they have no Garda identification showing.

Show me where it was proven that Gardaí removed their numbers??? The member you are referring to had CCTV and civilian witness who confirmed he was on meal break in a restaurant and left without his florescent jacket which had his numbers on. When I hear a call for urgent assistance I dont think "do I have my numbers on...."

Keeping in mind also that during the mayday riots the Gardaí with no numbers were country Gardaí who had no numbers.......

okioffice84 · 25-07-2010 09:49PM

nice guy always wrote: »

Keeping in mind also that during the mayday riots the Gardaí with no numbers were country Gardaí who had no numbers.......

I seem to recall they were from Pearse St.

okioffice84 · 25-07-2010 09:53PM

k_mac wrote: »

If they can replicate a uniform to fool you what makes you think you can authenticate an id you know nothing about?

This is a genuine issue. Around 5 years ago there was a spate of robberies of business premises in Dublin carried out by people in fake Garda uniforms. I would have no problem in spotting a suspect Garda ID.

The Highwayman · 26-07-2010 12:14AM

nice guy always wrote: »

Show me where it was proven that Gardaí removed their numbers??? The member you are referring to had CCTV and civilian witness who confirmed he was on meal break in a restaurant and left without his florescent jacket which had his numbers on. When I hear a call for urgent assistance I dont think "do I have my numbers on...."

Keeping in mind also that during the mayday riots the Gardaí with no numbers were country Gardaí who had no numbers.......

The 3 who were charged were
Gardai Ronan Judge and Thomas Victory of Store Street Station, and Garda Paul Daly from Pearse Street Station

Although the fans favorite Garda Donal Corcoran, he of the robocop and gay icon status(you know the 6'4 guard with NO numbers on his shirt just loving cracking a few crusties heads) was from Mounjoy Garda Station. Which I believe is not a country station.

'When I hear a call for urgent assistance I dont think "do I have my numbers on....'

maybe you should...

D.McC · 26-07-2010 12:43AM

I don’t think AGS members should be any different from any other public or civil servant. As a pervious poster said, ‘you’d ask the gas man, ESB meter reader, council worker to ID themselves, so why should the Gardaí be any different.

In many European and Middle Eastern countries, police officers, even in uniform would routinely display their credentials.

Bosco boy · 26-07-2010 01:54AM

The Highwayman wrote: »

The 3 who were charged were
Gardai Ronan Judge and Thomas Victory of Store Street Station, and Garda Paul Daly from Pearse Street Station

Although the fans favorite Garda Donal Corcoran, he of the robocop and gay icon status(you know the 6'4 guard with NO numbers on his shirt just loving cracking a few crusties heads) was from Mounjoy Garda Station. Which I believe is not a country station.

'When I hear a call for urgent assistance I dont think "do I have my numbers on....'

maybe you should...

You'll get just as hard a lash down the country if you deserve it, no apoligies, see you soon!!!!

murrayp4 · 26-07-2010 02:09AM

Bosco boy wrote: »

You'll get just as hard a lash down the country if you deserve it, no apoligies, see you soon!!!!

If you're a member of AGS I'd be a little bit more careful about what you post on a public forum like this.

The Highwayman · 26-07-2010 02:26AM

Bosco boy wrote: »

You'll get just as hard a lash down the country if you deserve it, no apoligies, see you soon!!!!

Is that a threat?

Bosco boy · 26-07-2010 12:12PM

The Highwayman wrote: »

Is that a threat?

absolutely not, poor attempt at humour, no offence meant

cushtac · 26-07-2010 12:23PM

D.McC wrote: »

I don’t think AGS members should be any different from any other public or civil servant. As a pervious poster said, ‘you’d ask the gas man, ESB meter reader, council worker to ID themselves, so why should the Gardaí be any different.

They're not, it's already been said that plain clothes Gardaí must identify themselves upon request. The gas man, ESB meter reader or council worker don't have uniforms, so are not comparable to uniformed Gardaí.

r3nu4l · 26-07-2010 01:01PM

cushtac wrote: »

They're not, it's already been said that plain clothes Gardaí must identify themselves upon request. The gas man, ESB meter reader or council worker don't have uniforms, so are not comparable to uniformed Gardaí.

And* as I pointed out but was ignored, we have had cases in the past where 'uniformed Gardaí' turned out not to be Gardaí at all. So again, why should a 'Garda' calling to your door not be obliged to show ID when requested?

I'll point out again that I understand that most members of the public wouldn't know a real Garda ID if they saw one but that's no reason why a requirement shouldn't be there.

*starting a sentence with 'And'. Tsk, there should be a law against it

26-07-2010 01:13PM

murrayp4 wrote: »

If you're a member of AGS I'd be a little bit more careful about what you post on a public forum like this.

The Highwayman wrote: »

Is that a threat?

In all fairness, it's an internet forum. If ye have such a huge issue with Gardai f off down to your local Garda station and annoy them in real life. Is that a threat, ffs :rolleyes:

MagicSean · 26-07-2010 01:21PM

r3nu4l wrote: »

And* as I pointed out but was ignored, we have had cases in the past where 'uniformed Gardaí' turned out not to be Gardaí at all. So again, why should a 'Garda' calling to your door not be obliged to show ID when requested?

I'll point out again that I understand that most members of the public wouldn't know a real Garda ID if they saw one but that's no reason why a requirement shouldn't be there.

*starting a sentence with 'And'. Tsk, there should be a law against it

Its a criminal offence to dress up like a garda or posess items of uniform. There is no offence to dress up like a gasman. If uniformed Gardaí had to show ID to everyone they spoke to what would be the point in wearing the uniform. A lot of Gardaí don't take their badge out on patrol because it's all too easy to lose something from your pocket when your at an incident.

r3nu4l · 26-07-2010 01:33PM

k_mac wrote: »

Its a criminal offence to dress up like a garda or posess items of uniform. There is no offence to dress up like a gasman. If uniformed Gardaí had to show ID to everyone they spoke to what would be the point in wearing the uniform.

That has no bearing on the presentation of ID though. Just because it's less likely to happen (posing as a Garda) does not mean it doesn't happen.

A lot of Gardaí don't take their badge out on patrol because it's all too easy to lose something from your pocket when your at an incident.

This I can understand and it makes some sense. Are Gardaí required to carry their ID at all times on duty?*

*I know that what is required may not always be what happens in daily practice and I'm not going to hang anybody for that, I'm just curious

cushtac · 26-07-2010 01:38PM

r3nu4l wrote: »

And* as I pointed out but was ignored, we have had cases in the past where 'uniformed Gardaí' turned out not to be Gardaí at all. So again, why should a 'Garda' calling to your door not be obliged to show ID when requested?

These instances are extremely rare and not enough in themselves to warrant the obligation on uniformed members to produce id. More likely such an obligation would used by criminals in an attempt to frustrate Gardaí in the execution of their duties.

I'd be more worried about criminals impersonating gas, esb or council workers to be honest. Instances of criminals impersonating such workers occur on a weekly basis.

r3nu4l wrote: »

I'll point out again that I understand that most members of the public wouldn't know a real Garda ID if they saw one but that's no reason why a requirement shouldn't be there.

If you're that afraid of criminals impersonating uniformed Gardaí that you'd like them to produce id on demand, what makes you think they wouldn't also fake an id badge?

r3nu4l · 26-07-2010 02:05PM

cushtac wrote: »

These instances are extremely rare and not enough in themselves to warrant the obligation on uniformed members to produce id. More likely such an obligation would used by criminals in an attempt to frustrate Gardaí in the execution of their duties.

Ah so the public shouldn't have the right to ask for ID because criminals will use that to frustrate the Gardaí? So we're giving in to criminals now? Criminals use stolen cars to get away from a crime scene everyday thus frustrating Gardaí in the execution of their duties, does that mean the public shouldn't be allowed to buy cars?

I'd be more worried about criminals impersonating gas, esb or council workers to be honest. Instances of criminals impersonating such workers occur on a weekly basis.

I am more worried about that.

If you're that afraid of criminals impersonating uniformed Gardaí that you'd like them to produce id on demand, what makes you think they wouldn't also fake an id badge?

1. I'm not afraid of criminals impersonating uniformed Gardaí, but I am aware that it does happen.
2. They might produce a fake ID card and most people wouldn't know the difference but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a requirement. An extra layer of security if you like.

Criminals have tools to get into locked cars, doesn't stop me from locking my car anytime I park it. Similarly I feel that whether a crim has a fake ID or not, a Garda should still be required to show ID when asked by a member of the public.

Butch Cassidy · 26-07-2010 02:20PM

k_mac wrote: »

A lot of Gardaí don't take their badge out on patrol because it's all too easy to lose something from your pocket when your at an incident.

Well, I mean that just says it all then.

No bother carrying mobile phone and wallet with credit cards etc. though

cushtac · 26-07-2010 02:43PM

r3nu4l wrote: »

Ah so the public shouldn't have the right to ask for ID because criminals will use that to frustrate the Gardaí? So we're giving in to criminals now? Criminals use stolen cars to get away from a crime scene everyday thus frustrating Gardaí in the execution of their duties, does that mean the public shouldn't be allowed to buy cars?

I said that the instances of people impersonating uniformed Gardaí are rare enough not to make an obligation to produce id a necessity. I did not say that criminals using such an obligation is a reason for not introducing it, I said that they would be using it to frustrate Gardaí.

It would hardly be 'giving in' to criminals, it would simply be common sense. Your argument about cars is ridiculous & bares no relation to what we're talking about. Cars are a necessity for the public and depriving them of such would cause unnecessary hardship, a requirement for uniformed Gardaí to produce id is most definitely not a necessity and 'depriving' the public of it won't make any difference to their lives.

r3nu4l wrote: »

1. I'm not afraid of criminals impersonating uniformed Gardaí, but I am aware that it does happen.
2. They might produce a fake ID card and most people wouldn't know the difference but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a requirement. An extra layer of security if you like.

1. It happens very, very rarely.
2. If people don't know what it looks like then how would the production of an ID be an extra layer of security? You could produce any sort of official-looking card with 'Garda' written on it, along with your counterfeit uniform, and it would be accepted.

r3nu4l wrote: »

Criminals have tools to get into locked cars, doesn't stop me from locking my car anytime I park it. Similarly I feel that whether a crim has a fake ID or not, a Garda should still be required to show ID when asked by a member of the public.

It would lead to numerous spas resisting arrest by uniformed Gardaí because 'they wouldn't show me their ID'.

The Highwayman · 26-07-2010 05:11PM

Maybe it would be a good idea to protect us from people like this

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-impersonator-convicted-on-firearms-child-porn-charges-463540.html

He was into child porn and had 3 guns!!!

Thoie · 26-07-2010 06:18PM

cushtac wrote: »

I said that the instances of people impersonating uniformed Gardaí are rare enough not to make an obligation to produce id a necessity.

This isn't aimed at you specifically cushtac, but the thread has been going around in circles a bit. Are we definitely saying that there is currently no legal requirement for a uniformed garda to identify himself to a member of the public on request? Is the only legal "proof" required an actual uniform?

cushtac wrote: »

2. If people don't know what it looks like then how would the production of an ID be an extra layer of security? You could produce any sort of official-looking card with 'Garda' written on it, along with your counterfeit uniform, and it would be accepted.

As I had pointed out earlier, if strange men are knocking on my door in the middle of the night, of have asked me to step out of my locked car they could show me their ID card and then I can ring the station for verification.

If I meet a garda face to face on the street in a public place I'm not likely to want any ID, unless they're trying to lure me down an alley with offers of sweeties.

Bosco boy · 26-07-2010 06:59PM

The Highwayman wrote: »

Maybe it would be a good idea to protect us from people like this

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-impersonator-convicted-on-firearms-child-porn-charges-463540.html

He was into child porn and had 3 guns!!!

Who do you think brought him to court, the ESB man!

The Highwayman · 26-07-2010 11:45PM

Bosco boy wrote: »

Who do you think brought him to court, the ESB man!

No, but I would take a guess on someone who probably wasn't able to get enough points to get a UCD arts course. Would I be right?

You say on your profile your in between a horse and a donkey....... a mule
(which is code for a member of AGS)
but I would guess your closer to an ass

Keep trying for those sargents exams with your attitude I expect you'll doing them for a while

DublinWriter · 26-07-2010 11:52PM

Considering the recent extra-curricular activities of a member working out of Pearse St. in selling official uniforms to a theatrical outfitter (it hit the national papers before you consider the lock), I'd ask anybody claiming to be an attested member of AGS to produce 'the flash' when stopped.

If stopped by a guard can you ask them for ID?

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