Nicolas Roche Tour Diary in the independent

alibabba · 21-07-2010 11:03PM

el tonto wrote: »

"Top ten finisher" in the Tour de France sounds just as good, if not better, as "stage winner" to me.

Then again, different people are impressed by different things.

Like someone said here back a few posts... Winning a stage is a lottery, a top ten finish is sheer guts determination and class. Especially this year. The climbs and descents :-*

davyjose · 21-07-2010 11:17PM

alibabba wrote: »

Like someone said here back a few posts... Winning a stage is a lottery, a top ten finish is sheer guts determination and class. Especially this year. The climbs and descents :-*

Disagree completely. Anyone who says that, is talking out their ass. Winning a stage is never a fluke. Look at lance yesterday - for the last 2 weeks his goal has been to breakaway up the tourmalet and try to win the stage from their, and he still couldn't do it. Calling it a lottery is a joke. it takes an incredible amount of guile, effort, talent, and yeah ... luck. Just like the GC is dependant on luck too - like Contador had a few days ago, or Armstrong had in '03, or God forbid, the perfect storm of luck Sastre had two years ago.

Anyone who thinks winning a stage is a case of someone being in the right place at the right time -- happening to be ten minutes ahead of the peloton over maybe some Category 1 and 2 climbs, by pure chance -- is delusional!

TinyExplosions · 21-07-2010 11:24PM

davyjose wrote: »

Anyone who thinks winning a stage is a case of someone being in the right place at the right time -- happening to be ten minutes ahead of the peloton over maybe some Category 1 and 2 climbs, by pure chance -- is delusional!

This is true, but it's also true that a lot of stage winners are very far down the GC, which is why the breakaways are allowed go on to win a stage... if Vino had got into the Armstrong group yesterday for example, they wouldn't have allowed it get so far up the road. You really have to choose to either try and go for breakaways to get a stage win, or go for a decent GC position, and this year Roche was going for GC as road captain. Now, all this talk about if he deserves it is a bit moot, because maybe he was told by his DS that he was to be leader, and who would turn that down!

I think he's doing really well, and yes maybe he won't go down in history as a great, but he's still the best Irish rider out there at the moment!

DirkVoodoo · 21-07-2010 11:25PM

Not luck, but certainly being in the right place at the right time.

I reckon the odds of successfully being in the right place at the right time over varying terrain for 19 stages, to stay in touch with the top riders around whilst also not being impressive enough in a time trial to finish in a top 10 are much, much longer than those for a single stage win.

It doesn't mean it's any less impressive, but one relies more on chance. Think cup versus league competition.

EDIT: And then there is just plain bad awful luck, I'm looking at you Frank Schleck, Lance and Liverpool.

Pisco Sour · 21-07-2010 11:28PM

I personally would hold Sean Kelly's GC 4th place, 5th place, 7th place, 9th place and 13th place in much higher esteem than his 5 stage wins.

Some stage wins can be a joke. 6-7 riders break away from the Peleton the day after a gruelling day in the mountains. All 6-7 riders are not even ranking in the top 100. The rest of the peleton dont give a toss about them and just want to take it easy that day to recover. So essentially that stage becomes a race between 6-7 nobodys.

Now how on earth is winning that type of stage more important than being in the top 10-20 of a 3 week Grand Tour, in which all of the World's best are competing?

alibabba · 21-07-2010 11:30PM

davyjose wrote: »

Disagree completely. Anyone who says that, is talking out their ass. Winning a stage is never a fluke. Look at lance yesterday - for the last 2 weeks his goal has been to breakaway up the tourmalet and try to win the stage from their, and he still couldn't do it. Calling it a lottery is a joke. it takes an incredible amount of guile, effort, talent, and yeah ... luck. Just like the GC is dependant on luck too - like Contador had a few days ago, or Armstrong had in '03, or God forbid, the perfect storm of luck Sastre had two years ago.

Anyone who thinks winning a stage is a case of someone being in the right place at the right time -- happening to be ten minutes ahead of the peloton over maybe some Category 1 and 2 climbs, by pure chance -- is delusional!

I don't question the fact that you need to be a serious biker to win a stage but you really need a hell amount of luck on your side to have everything click together for you to cross the line first. Ignoring this is 'delusional' in itself. A cyclist could put in one day of hard work, win a stage, then sit behind for the rest of the tour. But anyone who wants to get a top ten needs to be up there every single day. Fact

DirkVoodoo · 21-07-2010 11:31PM

04072511 wrote: »

So essentially that stage becomes a race between 6-7 nobodys.

You still have to out-sprint them. And I wouldn't call too many pro cyclists "nobodies", they have been picked for the tour for a reason.

There is no less glory or respect in the win because it is a bunch of nobodies, they still have to outride a much stronger peloton for the day in the biggest race of the year.

davyjose · 21-07-2010 11:41PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Not luck, but certainly being in the right place at the right time.

I reckon the odds of successfully being in the right place at the right time over varying terrain for 19 stages, to stay in touch with the top riders around whilst also not being impressive enough in a time trial to finish in a top 10 are much, much longer than those for a single stage win.

It doesn't mean it's any less impressive, but one relies more on chance. Think cup versus league competition.

EDIT: And then there is just plain bad awful luck, I'm looking at you Frank Schleck, Lance and Liverpool.

yeah I see what you're saying, and I agree. I was arguing against the blanket dismissal, by some posters, of winning stages.

ultimately, it comes down to playing to your strengths. Nowi personally think that is the route Roche needs to go down, because he might pull off a top ten place some year, but he'll never win it. What he can do is be a Sylvain Chavanel, and be a big player in the breakaway stages.

Look, Chavanel has more wins than Cadel evans, or Andreas Kloden, or even Riis. He's a breakaway specialist, and he plays to those strengths. Roche does not play to his strengths. He could pat himself on the back for coming 15th in the GC, but he's so far behind the real contenders as to be meaningless. What he could do is wind up with maybe 2 tour Wins, a few Vuelta wins and a Giro win, and that would be one hell of a career. He doesn't have the strengths his dad had, and he needs to accept that, IMO.

greendom · 21-07-2010 11:49PM

04072511 wrote: »

I personally would hold Sean Kelly's GC 4th place, 5th place, 7th place, 9th place and 13th place in much higher esteem than his 5 stage wins.

Some stage wins can be a joke. 6-7 riders break away from the Peleton the day after a gruelling day in the mountains. All 6-7 riders are not even ranking in the top 100. The rest of the peleton dont give a toss about them and just want to take it easy that day to recover. So essentially that stage becomes a race between 6-7 nobodys.

Now how on earth is winning that type of stage more important than being in the top 10-20 of a 3 week Grand Tour, in which all of the World's best are competing?

You have to bear in mind too though that those 6 - 7 who broke away had spent the rest of the tour being "domestiques", supporting their no 1 cyclist or the specialist climber or sprinter perhaps, and this is their one chance of glory in the race. The guys at the top of the GC wouldn't be there without these guys

davyjose · 22-07-2010 12:04AM

greendom wrote: »

You have to bear in mind too though that those 6 - 7 who broke away had spent the rest of the tour being "domestiques", supporting their no 1 cyclist or the specialist climber or sprinter perhaps, and this is their one chance of glory in the race. The guys at the top of the GC wouldn't be there without these guys

This is exactly what makes Gadret a liability to any team with serious aspirations.

Edit: Or maybe he was this year's 2009 Armstrong :P

greendom · 22-07-2010 12:27AM

davyjose wrote: »

This is exactly what makes Gadret a liability to any team with serious aspirations.

Edit: Or maybe he was this year's 2009 Armstrong :P

Really don't know what was going through his head. I'm sure though if Roche had been seriously challenging for the tour he would have handed over his bike.

Gadret may struggle to find another team when his contract ends though.

Junior · 22-07-2010 12:04PM

davyjose wrote: »

Or perhaps, he went for stage wins in the past, didn't get them so is now, on name reputation some completely unknown reason, team leader. Once again, he proves not up to the task ... maybe that's the complaint. That he's not actually an elite rider????

It's his second tour, last year the team found themselves with the yellow jersey, he did an awful lot of domestique duties, he got left off the leash for one attempt at a stage victory where he came in 2nd. I think he did very well last year and showed he was capable of being a Team Leader for Ag2r in a stage race this year, I didn't think it would be the Tour, however fate has lent him a hand with that. To say he's not up to the task is certainly putting him down, and being small minded as well. His Goal was a top ten this year at the TdF, if not for Gadret-gate he'd be there or there abouts now. For anyone to say a rider that has a top ten finish in GC at the TdF isn't an elite rider is very disingenuous.

The only exception I'd make to that rule is that if some rider got a massive 20 minute break and the peleton rode piano and he still didn't slip back that far.

However to say Roche isn't an elite rider is piss poor on your behalf.

Lumen · 22-07-2010 12:22PM

Just to be absolutely clear, there is to be NO discussion of todays stage on this thread until after midnight.

Thanks.

ednwireland · 26-07-2010 09:47AM

last edition

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling-im-proud-to-be-irish-and-proud-of-the-support-ive-received-i-hope-i-have-been-a-good-ambassador-2272456.html

As a souvenir of this year's Tour, I bought the riders and my manager Vincent a Festina Tour edition watch and when we had a quiet minute on the bus after the stage, I gave them one each.

wonder if gadret got one ?????????????????????????

RobFowl · 26-07-2010 09:54AM

davyjose wrote: »

Disagree completely. Anyone who says that, is talking out their ass. Winning a stage is never a fluke. Look at lance yesterday - for the last 2 weeks his goal has been to breakaway up the tourmalet and try to win the stage from their, and he still couldn't do it. Calling it a lottery is a joke. it takes an incredible amount of guile, effort, talent, and yeah ... luck. Just like the GC is dependant on luck too - like Contador had a few days ago, or Armstrong had in '03, or God forbid, the perfect storm of luck Sastre had two years ago.

Anyone who thinks winning a stage is a case of someone being in the right place at the right time -- happening to be ten minutes ahead of the peloton over maybe some Category 1 and 2 climbs, by pure chance -- is delusional!

Bruyneel's stage win when he sat on Indurain in the TDF in 1995 (stage 7) was largely getting lucky in getting on the right wheel at the right time. He didn't do a tap until the final sprint when he came around to take the stage.

Erik Dekker did the same to win Amstel gold from Armstrong as well. Sat on didn't to a turn the sprinted fro the win.

BostonB · 26-07-2010 10:15AM

ednwireland wrote: »

...
wonder if gadret got one ?????????????????????????

I wonder too!

FrankGrimes · 26-07-2010 11:57AM

BostonB wrote: »

I wonder too!

From my reading of it, it sounds like he did give one to Gadret, which is the right thing to do. Just another example of Roche being a class act - I really like his honesty and his determination. He most definitely is the excellent amabssador for Ireland that he indicates in the article he aspires to be.

On the 'is he Irish or French' conversation earlier in this thread - the man clearly says he is proud to be Irish and I don't think anyone has the right to question that.

He makes all the right noises that suggest he has the mentality to progress to the next level: he's realistic in his assessment of his own performances and always strives for more; he doesn't seem to panic when he gets dropped on climbs, just rides at his own pace (which has seen him consistently in the Top 20 climbers in almost every mountain stage this year). I hadn't realised that there was such a big difference in the wind between when Cancellera went out and the GC contenders went out in the TT on Saturday. Roche doesn't go easy on himself, so if he says there was a big wind difference, I believe him, and if he reckons that on balance it was his best ever TT performance, that's more cause for optimism for the future.

Have to say though, I was shocked that he only gets €2,000 for finishing 15th out of >200 and that Riblon only got €8,000 for his mountain stage win. Pennies really, particularl when divided across the full 28 man squad.

It's made the past couple of tours much more enjoyable to have an Irish interest to follow and to see him do so well is fantastic - all the best to Roche for the future.

Lumen · 26-07-2010 12:09PM

FrankGrimes wrote: »

On the 'is he Irish or French' conversation earlier in this thread - the man clearly says he is proud to be Irish and I don't think anyone has the right to question that.

I guess it depends whether by "right to question" you mean "right to deny" or "right to discuss".

AFAIK he was born in France, has dual citizenship and only spent a couple of years in Ireland, so it seems a perfectly reasonable point of discussion.

Someone who considers themself both Irish and French is arguably "less Irish" than some bogdonkey who has never left the country. That's a completely different issue to whether he has the right to ride for Ireland, which he clearly does.

Bluefoam · 26-07-2010 12:26PM

I believe his mother is French. He did mention in his article that the French riders were going to meet Sarkozy & he wasn't included in that. So he obviously rides for Ireland. I have no problem if he wants to be French/Irish - besides I have supported Irish football teams that barely had an Irish player on them...

BryanL · 26-07-2010 12:51PM

I know plenty of people born and bred in Ireland, who aren't proud to be Irish.

If he's bouyed on by Irish support , seeing tri colours on the roadside etc. etc I'm more than happy to support the guy.

he didn't have the luckiest tour but showed some class, on the cobbles, the Tourmalet and holding his nerve with vino chasing him in the TT.
Bryan

TinyExplosions · 26-07-2010 12:57PM

This sort of thing is nonsense, and it unfortunately all to typical of the culture round here. If Nico had won the Tour, there'd be no mention of his nationality, just of the fact that it was fantastic that another Irish rider had won the tour -once things slip a little, or he underperforms in someones eyes, then he's a Cheese Eating Surrender monkey pretending to be Irish cos he's not good enough to be French etc etc etc.

The guy's Dad is Irish, he has an Irish passport, and has declared for Ireland (and is a former Irish champion). I think it's fairly obvious where his loyalties lie, and if it's good enough for him, then there's no questions to be answered at all, regardless of where he lives/works/whatever.

This sort of begrudgery is one of the main things that make me glad I'm not from here tbh

Lumen · 26-07-2010 01:06PM

TinyExplosions wrote: »

This sort of begrudgery is one of the main things that make me glad I'm not from here tbh

Who is begrudging?

TinyExplosions · 26-07-2010 01:08PM

Lumen wrote: »

Who is begrudging?

In that it's the usual They're Irish when doing well, they're French (or whatever nationality) when they aren't doing so well

Lumen · 26-07-2010 01:17PM

TinyExplosions wrote: »

In that it's the usual They're Irish when doing well, they're French (or whatever nationality) when they aren't doing so well

"Scottish tennis player Andy Murray has just been knocked out of Wimbledon"?

TinyExplosions · 26-07-2010 01:25PM

Lumen wrote: »

"Scottish tennis player Andy Murray has just been knocked out of Wimbledon"?

Yup, that annoys me too, and makes me glad I'm not English!

ROK ON · 26-07-2010 01:28PM

TinyExplosions wrote: »

In that it's the usual They're Irish when doing well, they're French (or whatever nationality) when they aren't doing so well

Hoy, if you don't like it here maybe think about where you should live. AFAIK you are not being forcibly detained here;-)

The lad is of French and Irish origin. Clearly he represents this country with vigour grace and humility.
That is good enough for me.

TinyExplosions · 26-07-2010 01:32PM

ROK ON wrote: »

Hoy, if you don't like it here maybe think about where you should live. AFAIK you are not being forcibly detained here;-)

The lad is of French and Irish origin. Clearly he represents this country with vigour grace and humility.
That is good enough for me.

You are absolutely right Rok On, I'm not detained here, but it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion

It's more than good enough for me as well, I was making a generalization here! Maybe I'm just too cranky today...

Lumen · 26-07-2010 01:46PM

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Yup, that annoys me too, and makes me glad I'm not English!

Really? The British tennis player Andy Murray always does really well.

Anyway, I think you're reacting to a view that hasn't been expressed on this thread (unless I missed it).

Discussion of someone's nationality does not amount to begrudging.

Captain Havoc · 26-07-2010 01:47PM

I do believe he originally declared for France.

Anyway, I actually wouldn't question his nationality for a second. I have cousins in Coventry who play hurling etc... and call themselves Irish, I worked with a guy in Paris called Paddy who spoke sod all English because his parents were from the gaeltacht so he grew up speaking Irish. I think these people are as much Irish as I am.

Hail 2 Da Thief · 26-07-2010 01:51PM

TinyExplosions wrote: »

In that it's the usual They're Irish when doing well, they're French (or whatever nationality) when they aren't doing so well

Some people on here (including myself) wouldn't be that knowledgeable on pro cycling or Nicolas Roche & only really watch cycling when the TDF is taking place. Much like people who dont follow tennis but will watch Wimbledon every year etc.

I too am interested to know more about Roche & see nothing wrong with people asking questions about his background. It's interesting to learn more about the guy!

It made the TDF even more interesting having an Irish athlete to cheer on this year.
IMO Irish sports fans are fantastic supporters of athletes who represent their country whether they win, lose or draw!

Nicolas Roche Tour Diary in the independent

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