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Nicolas Roche Tour Diary in the independent

135

Comments

  • #62
    Beached
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭Beached


    Does anyone think that it would have been more worthwhile if Nico targeted the Green Jersey for this years TdF. He did finish 6th in this competition in last years race.
    I think he is a fairly good sprinter, with an ability to get over the mountains.Would the AG2R team not view this as being more prestigeous???


  • #63
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,716 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    FrankGrimes wrote: »
    I'd personally be interested in telling the grandkids 'I finished in the Top 10, with the best of the best, ahead of about 200 other top pros' than 'I finished over an hour down, but I did win a stage,


    In 5 years time no one will remember or care that someone came 9th once in the TDF. They will however recognise a stage winner... It goes on your record...

    9th place is not a winner, it's "an also ran...". A stage winner is just that...


  • #64
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Beached wrote: »
    Does anyone think that it would have been more worthwhile if Nico targeted the Green Jersey for this years TdF. He did finish 6th in this competition in last years race.
    I think he is a fairly good sprinter, with an ability to get over the mountains.Would the AG2R team not view this as being more prestigeous???

    That would be a big ask. It's invariably won by someone who is a good field sprinter.

    Yes, a rider like Roche could pick up intermediate sprints and smaller bunch sprints, but the big points are for placings on flat stages.


  • #65
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,493 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Bluefoam wrote: »
    In 5 years time no one will remember or care that someone came 9th once in the TDF.

    That's harsh. Would you only judge a tennis player by whether they'd won a grand slam, or a soccer team by whether they'd won an international championship?


  • #66
    Funkyzeit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Funkyzeit


    Lumen wrote: »
    That's harsh. Would you only judge a tennis player by whether they'd won a grand slam, or a soccer team by whether they'd won an international championship?

    Bill Shankly used to say "first is first - second is nowhere":D


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  • #67
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,716 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    Lumen wrote: »
    That's harsh. Would you only judge a tennis player by whether they'd won a grand slam, or a soccer team by whether they'd won an international championship?
    That seems to be the way the world works. Not saying I entirely agree with it, but its true...

    Can you imagine the wiki - which would you prefer...
    Lumen, winner of stage 3 of the TDF 2011

    or
    Lumen, came 9th once, could've come 8th possibly, but his team mate didn't help him much...


  • #68
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    "Top ten finisher" in the Tour de France sounds just as good, if not better, as "stage winner" to me.

    Then again, different people are impressed by different things.


  • #69
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Lumen wrote: »
    That's harsh. Would you only judge a tennis player by whether they'd won a grand slam, or a soccer team by whether they'd won an international championship?


    No. But to get to an international championship the team usually has to 'win' some matches.

    Chavenal Vocklert et al - I think that their fans, team and sponsors will view their tour as a success despite their overall placing. I am not sure that Roches isin that category. Its not a performance that would have big teams waving a cheque book at him. After this tour we ate still left with questions as to how good is he really?


  • #70
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,493 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ROK ON wrote: »
    After this tour we ate still left with questions as to how good is he really?

    Better than Wiggins, clearly. Chequebooks out at Sky?


  • #71
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    ROK ON wrote: »
    After this tour we ate still left with questions as to how good is he really?

    A rider who is capable of riding a better Tour de France than Lance Armstrong, Ivan Basso, Cadel Evans, Bradley Wiggins, Michael Rogers, Damiano Cunego and Linus Gerdemann.

    One bad day through not eating enough (his mistake, one I doubt he'll repeat) and another because of an idiot team mate (not his fault) and he'd be doing better than a good few others.

    Let's not get carried away.


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  • #72
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Lumen wrote: »
    Better than Wiggins, clearly. Chequebooks out at Sky?


    I think Sky needs a few out and out climbers. They could do with someone like Martin to help Wiggo in the mountains.
    He would also be handy enough in the hilly classics and that could compliment the classic bent in the team.

    I think if I was not Irish and reading about Roche that I would barely notice him over and above other riders.


  • #73
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,716 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    el tonto wrote: »
    One bad day through not eating enough (his mistake, one I doubt he'll repeat) and another because of an idiot team mate (not his fault) and he'd be doing better than a good few others.
    No one will remember those facts, just his finishing position.


  • #74
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    ROK ON wrote: »
    I think if I was not Irish and reading about Roche that I would barely notice him over and above other riders.

    I'm not Canadian and I barely notice Ryder Hesjedal above other riders.
    Bluefoam wrote: »
    No one will remember those facts, just his finishing position.

    The question was how good he is. Whether people remember those facts or not is irrelevant really.


  • #75
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    el tonto wrote: »
    A rider who is capable of riding a better Tour de France than Lance Armstrong, Ivan Basso, Cadel Evans, Bradley Wiggins, Michael Rogers, Damiano Cunego and Linus Gerdemann.

    One bad day through not eating enough (his mistake, one I doubt he'll repeat) and another because of an idiot team mate (not his fault) and he'd be doing better than a good few others.

    Let's not get carried away.

    Fair point up to a point, but many of those guys have won stuff this year. Maybe Nico needs to focus on that and enter races with that intention.
    I really admire Phillippe Gilbert for example. Many of the races he focuses on he places in. He doesn't waste a whole lot of time entering races to make up the numbers or be best of the rest. In an era of cycling specialisation I think that takes courage to admit to oneself.

    I think Roche is clearly good enough to be better than where he is. I would like to see him get some reward for that effort. Maybe next year put down a marker of a couple of 3-7day races that he will target honours in.


  • #76
    enoonan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 228 ✭✭enoonan


    Anyone know how long Roche is contracted to Ag2R for?
    Could he move and if yes any ideas as to where he could fit in?

    E


  • #77
    greendom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    enoonan wrote: »
    Anyone know how long Roche is contracted to Ag2R for?
    Could he move and if yes any ideas as to where he could fit in?

    E

    Do you think anyone else would want him as a team leader - or do you mean just as a team member ?


  • #78
    enoonan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 228 ✭✭enoonan


    Not sure about team leader but he would be a good fella to have, I would imagine, in any team.

    E


  • #79
    Hungrycol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,246 ✭✭✭Hungrycol


    el tonto wrote: »
    "Top ten finisher" in the Tour de France sounds just as good, if not better, as "stage winner" to me.

    Then again, different people are impressed by different things.

    I agree, I hate the way sprinters target the first week of a grand tour then barely keep in front of the broomwagon for the rest of it. Like Cav last year won a bunch of stages then buggered off "to concentrate on the Olympics/Worlds" or whatnot.


  • #80
    Hungrycol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,246 ✭✭✭Hungrycol


    enoonan wrote: »
    Not sure about team leader but he would be a good fella to have, I would imagine, in any team.

    E

    He calls himself an opportunist so he may have little specialism to offer a team leader of another team.


  • #81
    greendom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    Hungrycol wrote: »
    I agree, I hate the way sprinters target the first week of a grand tour then barely keep in front of the broomwagon for the rest of it. Like Cav last year won a bunch of stages then buggered off "to concentrate on the Olympics/Worlds" or whatnot.

    Cavendish won the final stage and got his sixth stage win in Paris last year.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/5912827/Tour-de-France-2009-Mark-Cavendish-makes-history-in-Paris-as-Alberto-Contador-seals-win.html

    You may have been referring to the year before - his first attempt at the tour


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  • #82
    Junior
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭Junior


    Look if Roche went for stage win's people would be asking why isn't he going for GC placement, he picked his goal, he aimed for it, due to circumstances slightly outside of his control he's going to miss that goal.

    however that's what competitive cycling is all about setting goals and going after them, not trying to please some lads on the internet because they think you should do something.


  • #83
    Hungrycol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,246 ✭✭✭Hungrycol


    greendom wrote: »
    Cavendish won the final stage and got his sixth stage win in Paris last year.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/5912827/Tour-de-France-2009-Mark-Cavendish-makes-history-in-Paris-as-Alberto-Contador-seals-win.html

    You may have been referring to the year before - his first attempt at the tour

    My bad, but also proves my point because he came 131st out of 156 in 2009, 6 stages or no 6 stages.


  • #84
    greendom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    Hungrycol wrote: »
    My bad, but also proves my point because he also came 176th out of 180 in 2009, 6 stages or no 6 stages.

    Yeah, the lazy gob****e :rolleyes:


  • #85
    iregk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭iregk


    If you ain't first, you're last! - Ricky Bobby

    p.s. Nico has two years left on his AG2R deal.


  • #86
    on_the_nickel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭on_the_nickel


    ROK ON wrote: »
    Fair point up to a point, but many of those guys have won stuff this year. Maybe Nico needs to focus on that and enter races with that intention.
    I really admire Phillippe Gilbert for example. Many of the races he focuses on he places in. He doesn't waste a whole lot of time entering races to make up the numbers or be best of the rest. In an era of cycling specialisation I think that takes courage to admit to oneself.

    I think Roche is clearly good enough to be better than where he is. I would like to see him get some reward for that effort. Maybe next year put down a marker of a couple of 3-7day races that he will target honours in.

    So a placing is ok then? :D

    I see your point, wins are important, and maybe would give him the confidence he needs?

    One other thing, he was out injured just before the Tour, while it may have given his legs a rest, far from ideal preparation.


  • #87
    kerryscoob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭kerryscoob


    His dad reckoned the rest because of the injury was going to be a help to him.

    Missed him wearing the National jersey this year, at times found it difficult to spot him, made even harder by the fact Europsort rarely mentioned him.

    Delighted to see him having a good Tour, he's probably disappointed he's lost some ground over the last 2 stages but look it's a learing experience, a bit of luck and maybe he would have finished a bit higher. Here's hoping he'll give it one last lash tomorrow.

    Well done Nicolas.


  • #88
    davyjose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭davyjose


    Junior wrote: »
    Look if Roche went for stage win's people would be asking why isn't he going for GC placement, he picked his goal, he aimed for it, due to circumstances slightly outside of his control he's going to miss that goal.

    however that's what competitive cycling is all about setting goals and going after them, not trying to please some lads on the internet because they think you should do something.

    Or perhaps, he went for stage wins in the past, didn't get them so is now, on name reputation some completely unknown reason, team leader. Once again, he proves not up to the task ... maybe that's the complaint. That he's not actually an elite rider????


  • #89
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    A top 20 finish in the Tour de France would be nothing to be sneezed at. Only 2 other Irish cyclists have ever achieved that, and he's still very young.


  • #90
    alibabba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭alibabba


    greendom wrote: »
    Nonsense - it was the actions of an individual and so a bit unfair to damn a whole nation - as there are plenty of French riders in most teams how do team rules work at all ?
    .
    Let me see .... He is french, it was very arrogant of him to disrespect the team leader like that.


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  • #91
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Bluefoam wrote: »
    In 5 years time no one will remember or care that someone came 9th once in the TDF. They will however recognise a stage winner... It goes on your record...

    9th place is not a winner, it's "an also ran...". A stage winner is just that...

    Disagree with this. Lots of sh1te riders have won stages. How many times do you see the Peleton let a bunch of nobodys go 20 minutes down the road.

    It's much more impressive to be in the Top 10-20 than it is to win the odd stage in a breakaway when most of the Peleton are taking it easy that day!


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