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College Chaplain

24567…12

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  • #32
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    More generally, I of course think that not a penny of public money should be spent on chaplins, humanist or otherwise (ideally; but if you do one, you must do them all); that money should go on a qualified professional counselor. If a religious order wishes to volunteer a chaplin, then that's up to them. But they pay to rent an office.
    Exactly, this is how it should be. Allowing chaplains rent an office would be already accomodating enough.


  • #33
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    What's in the best interest of the college and it's students is to ensure as many as possible find the help on offer available and relevant, to them. I am not so worried about the people who specifically want christian guidance because there has to be a million churches on this island but what service is available for those who aren't and I'm not sure whether approaching a chaplain regarding sexual issues or whatever is in their best interest; or whether the resources are better spent on improving facilities for those who don't have a vested interest in one section of the student body.

    If the church wishes a greater presence on campus there is no reason why they can't pay rent and have their own wee private offices there. I don't think having them as paid campus representatives and an expected point of contact is in all the students best interest.


  • #34
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,044 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I am not so worried about the people who specifically want christian guidance because there has to be a million churches on this island
    much easier to approach someone on campus who is used to dealing with student issues than it is to approach a parish priest in a nearby parish; especially since a lot of the issues presenting to the chaplain would be college-related, and the chaplain would automatically have access to communication channels which someone external would not. plus, i imagine there would be confidentiality issues at play, where other faculty staff can talk to the chaplain where they would not be able to talk to a parish priest.

    i've no issue with having a chaplain on faculty as long as he or she proves their use, and there is no degradation to other services.
    i had contact with the chaplain in UCD once, and he was able to be of use in that particular situation without religion in any way, shape or form being raised.


  • #35
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    Very timely article in the Indo today:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dcu-staff-embroiled-in-mail-dispute-over-prayer-for-president-2263319.html


  • #36
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    much easier to approach someone on campus who is used to dealing with student issues than it is to approach a parish priest in a nearby parish; especially since a lot of the issues presenting to the chaplain would be college-related, and the chaplain would automatically have access to communication channels which someone external would not. plus, i imagine there would be confidentiality issues at play, where other faculty staff can talk to the chaplain where they would not be able to talk to a parish priest.

    i've no issue with having a chaplain on faculty as long as he or she proves their use, and there is no degradation to other services.
    i had contact with the chaplain in UCD once, and he was able to be of use in that particular situation without religion in any way, shape or form being raised.

    Of course, but my point was there is not really anything a chaplain currently does that a more secular council could not and if a religious element is specifically required, a church is guaranteed to only be stones throw away. Ireland is fast becoming a multi-cultural and multi-religious country, I'm not sure only having one religious representative is fair or in the best interests of every student currently having to pay for them. I would also worry that someone whom the college views as a point of contact for students would have specific views on homosexuality, abortion, etc - while they may be fantastic for anything which is in their arena of expertise I imagine the need for funereal directions and so on are minimal compared with other issues they may not deal with, or be able to deal with, appropriately.


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  • #37
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Yesterday I received an e-mail from the president of the student union in my college going on about how they've been fighting all year long to have a permanent Chaplain re-instated in the college, stressing things like how important spiritual guidance in college is and all that. So the Chaplain has been re-instated. It's all good and well, but the college is an IT, I would expect somewhere like Maynooth to have chaplain and that, but it just strikes me as odd that an institute of technology should have a chaplain in this day and age?? Is this a common thing? If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

    Every university that I know of has a chaplaincy. It's fair enough that you mightn't believe so that it might be of limited value to you. However, a university is meant to consider the needs of all students, and many students do benefit from the chaplaincy, even if you find that you don't have a need or a desire for it.

    Queens University in Belfast, actually have a humanist chaplain as well as numerous other Christian chaplains. Perhaps that argument may be a better one rather than saying no chaplaincy at all.


  • #38
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,816 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Every university that I know of has a chaplaincy. It's fair enough that you mightn't believe so that it might be of limited value to you. However, a university is meant to consider the needs of all students, and many students do benefit from the chaplaincy, even if you find that you don't have a need or a desire for it.

    Queens University in Belfast, actually have a humanist chaplain as well as numerous other Christian chaplains. Perhaps that argument may be a better one rather than saying no chaplaincy at all.

    I didn't realise it was so common, but I don't see how having a catholic priest on hand is considering the needs of all students in a multi-denominational campus.

    The system at belfast sounds better alright, although probably not practical from a financial point of view at a campus as small as mine.


  • #39
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    I'd have no problem talking to a preist or chaplain about my problems,they're not there to preach to you or encourage you to pray or anything.
    They can be good listeners aswell you know but they're there more the Christian students I suppose.


  • #40
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    panda100 wrote: »
    A lot of students would see these advisors If they had failed an exam or needed help with an academic issue. I went to see the chaplain after I failed one of my first exam. After telling him about what a good little Christian I was and my trips to Lourdes,he spoke to the dean on my behalf about my exam result and I was given a third chance to sit the exam. Im sure this kinda stuff is still going on.

    You chose to tell him how much of a good Catholic you were. Was there any reason to believe that the chaplain wouldn't have helped you if you weren't?

    You seem to be saying that this is wrong, but this is something that you availed of and partook in.

    Sounds a little spurious to me.


  • #41
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You chose to tell him how much of a good Catholic you were. Was there any reason to believe that the chaplain wouldn't have helped you if you weren't?

    You seem to be saying that this is wrong, but this is something that you availed of and partook in.

    Sounds a little spurious to me.

    Surely the offer a third repeat shouldn't just be set aside for the religious. I'm not condoning it, but if all it takes is belief to save me repeating a year/paying 6k more, then I'll believe anything to suit me.

    That said, the chaplaincy should hold no say in academic affairs.


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  • #42
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mehfesto wrote: »
    Surely the offer a third repeat shouldn't just be set aside for the religious. I'm not condoning it, but if all it takes is belief to save me repeating a year/paying 6k more, then I'll believe anything to suit me.

    Who says it was set aside only for believers? - If it was I would accept that as being wrong.

    What has been said is that:
    1) She went to the chaplain, and explained that she was a good Catholic in the intention that she would get to repeat her exam.
    2) The chaplain gave her the chance to resit the exam.

    What the difficulty arises in is the leap from 2 to 3 which is:
    3) Therefore, because she said what a good Catholic she was, the chaplain gave her a special allowance to resit the exam.

    This seems to be unfounded unless we have more detail.


  • #43
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    If the chaplains provide a good and necessary service in colleges, and are found to be genuinely helpful to students of the college of all faiths, then I don't see how we can argue to get rid of them in order to put more pressure on an overburdened counselling service.

    They are totally different services and you can't replace one with the other. As someone said earlier in the thread, if you're going through a tough time or if you're bereaved or if you're a bit lonely, sometimes you don't need therapy! You might just need someone to chat to, that person doesn't have to be a psychologist!

    Sometimes chaplains provide a much-needed sense of 'community' in college too. I know in TCD you can go to the chaplaincy one day a week for sandwiches and coffee.

    I'm an atheist by the way, but I just think that no good would come of gettign rid of these services.

    Would we argue that public money should not fund 'single parent support groups' in college because not every student is a single parent? Or should they stop funding bereavement support groups because only a small portion of the college population are bereaved?
    Yes the chaplaincy isn't for everyone, but they do provide a great service for a lot of students, and that should be enough.

    If you want to campaign that a secular equivalent is needed, then fine, go ahead, but there's no reason to get rid of the religious ones.


  • #44
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Kooli wrote: »
    Would we argue that public money should not fund 'single parent support groups' in college because not every student is a single parent? Or should they stop funding bereavement support groups because only a small portion of the college population are bereaved?
    I think the point is funding should be cut for the hypothetical 'christian single parent support group' or 'christian bereavement support group'.

    Why can't we just use secular counsellors instead or chaplains? It would be very easy to hire a counsellor and give them the remit of more than just straight forward counselling sessions which would include organising community type of events. This way it would show the service is for more than just specific faiths. It seem stupid to pay a number of different chaplains for each of the main religious faiths (and for those for think rationally) when they could hire the equivalent number of secular counsellors instead - think economies of scale.

    Why would a woman who has just gotten pregnant, for example, visit a christian chaplain (or one of any faith) when that chaplain will be biased to her situation. Even if the chaplain themselves was not actually biased the fact that they would be seen as being religious could potentially turn off such a potential client. This hypothetical woman should be able to see a cousellor instead to help her get through worries and issues.

    The point here is that cousellors would cover everyone whereas chaplains can't.

    Also there are a huge number of counsellors out there so there would not be any problems finding ones to hire.


  • #45
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    axer wrote: »
    I think the point is funding should be cut for the hypothetical 'christian single parent support group' or 'christian bereavement support group'.

    Why can't we just use secular counsellors instead or chaplains? It would be very easy to hire a counsellor and give them the remit of more than just straight forward counselling sessions which would include organising community type of events. This way it would show the service is for more than just specific faiths. It seem stupid to pay a number of different chaplains for each of the main religious faiths (and for those for think rationally) when they could hire the equivalent number of secular counsellors instead - think economies of scale.

    Why would a woman who has just gotten pregnant, for example, visit a christian chaplain (or one of any faith) when that chaplain will be biased to her situation. Even if the chaplain themselves was not actually biased the fact that they would be seen as being religious could potentially turn off such a potential client. This hypothetical woman should be able to see a cousellor instead to help her get through worries and issues.

    The point here is that cousellors would cover everyone whereas chaplains can't.


    Also there are a huge number of counsellors out there so there would not be any problems finding ones to hire.

    I kind of see your point but as a college counsellor myself, I do not have the time to see students who just need a chat, or a bit of support, but I can see that these students do need someone. I am a mental health professional, my time is already stretched dealing with the significant mental health issues in the student population, without expanding my remit. I know you say you could just hire more counsellors, but frankly that is not our job.

    The 'secular chaplain' idea makes sense to a certain extent, but it does seem like your proposal for it comes from an anti-religion stance, rather that a belief that there is a real need for it.

    People in times of need want to speak to someone who comes from their own frame of reference. Maybe a pregnant girl will want to speak to someone who shares their religious beliefs! And no chaplain I know would steer her away from abortion, just like no counsellor I know would steer her towards it.


  • #46
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    If there was more money being ploughed into counsellors because there wasn't money going to pay chaplaincy then counselling services wouldn't be so over-burdened? I think as long as all students are guaranteed good service and having a campus chaplaincy is not just a sentimental throw-back then it isn't an issue at all, obviously - but if that were the case then the position would have no detractors.

    There is no reason why an individual (trained counsellor or no) without religious affiliation can't offer tea & buns &/or just a listening ear. At least people of other denominations or none wouldn't be put off using such a service nor get the impression that the well-being of one denomination is given priority. That's not to say there is no place for religious representatives on campus but whether all students should be forced to fund one particular denomination strikes me as being very old fashioned.


  • #47
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    I wouldn't say a chaplain earns any where near what a full time fully qualified psychiatrist would. So what do you do, get rid of all the chaplains and replace them with 1 or 2 psychiatrists? How stretched would those psychiatrists be in regards to the sheer amount of workload?

    When I finished in UCD two years ago, there was only one psychiatrist available to students for 5 hours on a Tuesday afternoon. If you wanted to see him outside these hours you would have to pay privately. He was constantly booked out for weeks, and months in advance.
    This is absolutely awful considering the mental health crisis that is affecting Irish young people.

    I don't think we should get rid of all the chaplains but there shouldn't be a chaplain attached to each school. Its a waste of money and resources that could be used better elsewhere. There should be two, at most,that cater for the whole college.
    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    What makes you think that proper research wasn't put into the campaign just because the founder is a chaplain?

    Because the campaign is completely ineffective, anyone who has any knowledge of mental health will tell you that.
    I did a research project in my third year of college under Prof.Kevin Malone, Ireland leading psychiatrist when it comes to mental health and suicide. He was asked to endorse the 'Please Talk' campaign and he couldn't do it as he didn't feel sufficient research was involved in implementing it, and it was all fluff with no substance.
    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    You have to help me out here, 4 years in UCD and I've never heard of this. What exact role does the Arts chaplain play in these preceedings? Is he the lead judge, turning away the unattractive women? :p

    Serious, ya never heard of the arts fashion show?
    It was set up by the arts chaplaincy in my first year of college to raise funds for charity. Hundreds would audition each year to take part,but only a special select few were considered attractive enough to make the final cut.
    The arts chaplain was fully involved in running the event,promoting it and endorsing its wonderful message of girls walking around wearing nothing and calling it 'fashion':
    nokiafashion3.jpg


  • #48
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Kooli wrote: »
    I kind of see your point but as a college counsellor myself, I do not have the time to see students who just need a chat, or a bit of support, but I can see that these students do need someone. I am a mental health professional, my time is already stretched dealing with the significant mental health issues in the student population, without expanding my remit. I know you say you could just hire more counsellors, but frankly that is not our job.
    I would think it is a counsellors job to support people. Obviously you are over stretched in your work in that you are forced to focus on the bigger cases but there is nothing wrong with hiring other people who could have the time as part of their jobs.
    Kooli wrote: »
    The 'secular chaplain' idea makes sense to a certain extent, but it does seem like your proposal for it comes from an anti-religion stance, rather that a belief that there is a real need for it.
    I am coming from a secular stance where everybody should be taken into account not just the larger groups of faith.
    Kooli wrote: »
    People in times of need want to speak to someone who comes from their own frame of reference. Maybe a pregnant girl will want to speak to someone who shares their religious beliefs! And no chaplain I know would steer her away from abortion, just like no counsellor I know would steer her towards it.
    The problem is that many don't come from the christian or otherwise frame of reference. I wouldn't want to visit a christian chaplain to discuss issues since I would assume since they are christian then they would be more prone to having a christian bias to all problems - whether they do or not. Whether a christian chaplain would steer someone away from abortion or not is irrelevent since it is morally wrong under christianity to have an abortion thus people could assume that the chaplain would be biased and as a result would be hesitant to use their services.

    Does anyone know how much chaplains are paid? Would there be a big difference in costs between hiring a counsellor over a chaplain?


  • #49
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    axer wrote: »
    Does anyone know how much chaplains are paid? Would there be a big difference in costs between hiring a counsellor over a chaplain?

    As far as I know, many of the chaplains are unpaid. There are two main chaplains at my university, and then there are other chaplains for other denominations such as Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Methodism, and so on. There are also links for Jewish and Islamic groups should anyone need them.


  • #50
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Jakkass wrote: »
    As far as I know, many of the chaplains are unpaid.
    If they are all unfunded then I wouldn't have a problem with them but does anyone know for sure?


  • #51
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    axer wrote: »
    If they are all unfunded then I wouldn't have a problem with them but does anyone know for sure?

    Not all of them are unfunded, I'm fairly sure that the two main chaplains are paid, as well as the chaplaincy secretary at our university. In respect to other universities I don't know.


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  • #52
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Not all of them are unfunded, I'm fairly sure that the two main chaplains are paid, as well as the chaplaincy secretary at our university. In respect to other universities I don't know.
    Then that is completely wrong. I would love to know how much is being paid to see how many counsellors you could get for the same money. How come the other chaplains can work for free but the two main ones can't?


  • #53
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Interesting take axer, just if I can ask you another question. If you are opposed to seeing state money being used in chaplaincies in universities, are you opposed to state money being used to fund faith societies at universities such as Christian Unions and Islamic societies?


  • #54
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Interesting take axer, just if I can ask you another question. If you are opposed to seeing state money being used in chaplaincies in universities, are you opposed to state money being used to fund faith societies at universities such as Christian Unions and Islamic societies?
    I assume they are treated like the other societies/clubs? e.g. tennis club etc

    May I ask you, How come the other chaplains can work for free but the two main ones can't?


  • #55
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    axer wrote: »
    I assume they are treated like the other societies/clubs? e.g. tennis club etc?

    Yes, capitation is applied for in the same way, and is given dependant on how much they think is adequate. Irrespective of this, money from students / the State is used to set up faith societies on campuses.


  • #56
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Yes, capitation is applied for in the same way, and is given dependant on how much they think is adequate. Irrespective of this, money from students / the State is used to set up faith societies on campuses.
    I think when a secular service can be provided then it should be provided over a religious equivalent since a secular service can be of value to everyone in the educational institute. I think a faith society is different as that cannot be provided in a secular way due to its nature. Support groups and student support can be provided via a secular service using counsellors etc.


  • #57
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I think counsellors provide a very different service to chaplains rather than something the same.


  • #58
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think counsellors provide a very different service to chaplains rather than something the same.
    What services do chaplains provide?


  • #59
    Tordelback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    Interesting discussion. As an atheist from a minority religious background, I nevertheless developed a great respect for the RC Chaplain in UCD in the early '90's. He came along on various society events and trips (presumably as a way of making himself known to the students), and was genuinely an interesting and entertaining guy to talk to to. I saw him help several of my (RC) friends with serious problems over the course of several years, and always in a supportive non-judgemental way, and found myself asking his advice myself on more than one occasion (although happily not about anything too awful). If asked 'why', I'd have to say it felt like he was outside of the administrative structure of the college, while still having knowledge of its workings and some influence over it. It also felt like he'd seen and heard it all before. As close as I've ever come to availing of religious services!

    This doesn't add much to the discussion at hand, since it's just an anecdote about one guy, but I thought it worth noting.


  • #60
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    axer wrote: »
    What services do chaplains provide?

    A notable example is, that if I was a new student to a university, I don't think I could go to the counsellor if I was looking for help as to how to be actively Christian on campus, or how to take an active part in a local faith community, or ask about different churches and the like. For a lot of people, this is an important concern when they are moving to a new place, especially if it is far from home.

    In fact this was something I went to one of the chaplains about when I started university, even though I lived quite close by.

    Counsellors won't have as much knowledge in this respect, whereas a chaplain will.

    I understand as an atheist this has little or no value to you, but as a person of faith this is important.


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  • #61
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    A notable example is, that if I was a new student to a university, I don't think I could go to the counsellor if I was looking for help as to how to invest in a new automobile, or how to take an active part in a local driving community, or ask about different car dealers and the like. For a lot of people, this is an important concern when they are moving to a new place, especially if it is far from home.

    Counsellors won't have as much knowledge in this respect, whereas a representative of the automotive industry will.

    I understand as a non driver this has little or no value to you, but as a driver this is important.



    … we can not assign dedicated representatives to pander to every single whim a student might have for how to spend their extra curricular time or every single activitiy/community he or she might want to enter into.

    … students set up special interest groups themselves for providing information and facilities that are not directly linked to any realm of study being offered by the college itself. If you want to get into football, start a football society. If you want to get into Warhammer, start a Warhammer society. If you want to get into religion, start a Christian/Muslim/Etc society.

    Then apply for grants by the same procedures that everyone else who starts a society has to go through, and if you get one fair play to you.

    That one “society” can automatically bypass the procedures everyone else has to go through and get by default a representative paid for by the college/state for use in that society… is a little unfair to say the least. It is essentially saying "Your football club has to go and apply by the usual channels for money.... and your warhammer club too.... but my Christian club, sorry, we get our funding by default, Thanks Taxpayers, we loves ya!"


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