Burka ban

Permabear · 16-07-2010 07:16PM

This post has been deleted.

Zombrex · 16-07-2010 07:28PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That is a key point. This ban isn't anything about obscuring ones face.

It is about public expression of a religious doctrine that we find alien and disquieting, that being the Islamic idea that women should cover themselves in order to not provoke sexual arousal.

You could replace with burka for Christian chastity ring, or a JW with a badge that says "I refuse blood"

ColmDawson · 16-07-2010 07:31PM

I'm religious and support the ban

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I wasn't saying I'd back such a law, just wondering how people felt. I was thinking full covering of the face, as opposed to the covering that sunglasses etc. would provide.

I suppose I'm trying to reach some sort of halfway point because I'd rather not ban burqas, but I'd rather people didn't wear them.

Nemi · 16-07-2010 08:32PM

I'm religious and support the ban

ColmDawson wrote: »

I'd rather people didn't wear them.

Apologies if this puts you on the spot, but can you clarify why you have any preferences about other people wearing them?

I tend to the view that a Western woman who chooses to adopt Islam and then further chooses to wear a burka is probably tussling with some rather deep issues in her life. I've no feeling that I've anything to offer her to improve her situation, and I wouldn't presume that I know her life better than she does. Maybe her best option, in her particular situation, is to follow Islam in precisely the way she has chosen. I simply don't know.

So how does this present a problem for any of the rest of us?

ColmDawson · 16-07-2010 11:24PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Nemi wrote: »

Apologies if this puts you on the spot, but can you clarify why you have any preferences about other people wearing them?

I tend to the view that a Western woman who chooses to adopt Islam and then further chooses to wear a burka is probably tussling with some rather deep issues in her life. I've no feeling that I've anything to offer her to improve her situation, and I wouldn't presume that I know her life better than she does. Maybe her best option, in her particular situation, is to follow Islam in precisely the way she has chosen. I simply don't know.

So how does this present a problem for any of the rest of us?

I suppose what I mean is that the more burqas (and churches, crosses, mosques, rosary beads, synagogues, priests, nuns etc.) I see, the more I'm reminded that I'm living in a religious world.

magicbastarder · 18-07-2010 11:08AM

I'm religious and support the ban

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10674973

Zombrex · 18-07-2010 12:33PM

ColmDawson wrote: »

I suppose what I mean is that the more burqas (and churches, crosses, mosques, rosary beads, synagogues, priests, nuns etc.) I see, the more I'm reminded that I'm living in a religious world.

You are living in a religious world

ThirdMan · 18-07-2010 01:08PM

I'm religious and support the ban

An interesting article from Christopher Hitchens.

http://www.slate.com/id/2253493/

ColmDawson · 18-07-2010 01:36PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Wicknight wrote: »

You are living in a religious world

Damn it!

Thomas828 · 18-07-2010 09:40PM

I'm religious and do not support the ban

The burka is nothing to do with Islam or any religion. Nowhere in the Koran does it say that a woman must cover herself with a burka. The burka is a product of the barefaced misogyny of men only pretending to be strict moslems. BURN IT!!!

branie · 18-07-2010 09:47PM

I'm religious and do not support the ban

I believe that there's no memtion of the burqa in the Koran

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 01:47AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Few things. Before I start, I think that one of the cornerstones of Western society is freedom to chose what you wear, as long as you cover your private parts. This ban endangers this freedom.

(i) This is of course NOT about women's liberation, Western values or security. They are just convenient arguments. This would have never come to a head if it weren't for Islam. So the ulterior motive behind banning the burka is an intense dislike of Islam

(ii) So ok, let's say you hate radical Islam and want to push it back. But of course, banning the burka is a singularly ineffective way of combating radical Islam. Why - because you are attacking the the most vulnerable members of the Islamic community. And that's hardly a good way of going about things, is it? If you want to fight Islam, go for the men, attempt to re-educate, Irish-ise them, make the adapt to Western values. Don't beat up on the already beaten-up.

(iii) Seriously, is this even an important issue? It affects a handful of people and it's crisis time at the moment? Can't politicians find something better to do? One can't help but think that this is an attempt to distract minds from our dire economic predicament.

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 02:09AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

It's been clearly illustrated time and again that that isn't the case, a caring society will also seek to prevent people from harming themselves. Quite the opposite of what you propose, if they wish to damage themselves cast them to the wind.

Society has a duty to protect the vulnerable, even if that means from themselves.

Oh give me a break. You seriously think that banning the burka will protect anyone?

If the woman is coerced into wearing (whether by other people or by the force of her belief) it it would force her to stay home or emigrate into a society where she will not have the sort of support she may have here.

If the woman wears it by choice it will unfairly restrict her choice.

So who exactly gains from a ban, except intolerant islamophobes?

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 02:14AM

I'm religious and support the ban

MrPudding wrote: »

I
Not directed at me, but I will answer anyway. my personal opinion is that even when a woman freely chooses to wear it, she is not freely choosing to wear it.

It's amazing how much people are prepared to assume about the desires of motivations of other people that they haven't met. Simply amazing. I'd be ashamed to be making such sweeping assumptions.

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 02:32AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If its stupid, then why allow it? Its not like it isn't bad for society. It promotes oppression of women, it promotes the idea that some unelected religious leader in some far country should have more say than the elected leader in the country you are in.

You've been told the answer a thousand times: we allow it because we are a DEMOCRACY. And I feel that this is the thin end of the wedge. First they came for the burka wearers etc.

You claim it's bad for society, and go to considerable effort to back up your claim, but fail miserably. How can a person's choice of clothing be bad for society? Only if other people have an adverse reaction. But I have news for you: your feelings are YOUR responsibility. If people have a bad reaction to the burka, they should go seek counselling. Maybe I have a bad reaction to red trousers: do I have the right to ban them?

Oppression of women - perhaps some women wearing the burka are oppressed. But is that a reason to oppress women who wear the burka by choice? No.

As for unelected foreign religious leaders... do I need to mention the pope?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You dont think the burka will just lead to major societal problems?
The burka promotes the very thing it tries to protect against. That women are different to men, and need to be treated differently. Read Robindchs post again, the one that describes his interactions with burka clad women in middle eastern countries.Read again about the dangers of these burka clad women, living in countries that entirely support the burka (in law and in the general population), of talking to any man they are not married to (which is bizarre, as that is what it is suposed to facilitate), the dangers of any woman not wearing the burka in being attacked for not doing so.
There are great dangers in the burka, because of the lifestyle it represents.

*bangs head against wall* If you want to address oppression and discrimination of women, go and fight them DIRECTLY. Don't ban the (perceived) symbol, attack the root cause.

Just because you allow or ban garment X will not affect the treatment of women in your country. Not one little tiny bit.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What is then? What would you propose is done?

Something which is difficult and expensive and doesn't generate the fanfare of a ban. You spend money on support organisations, re-education. social work, etc etc. So that women know that they can break out of an oppressive environment, and have somewhere to go when they do.

At the moment, organisations dealing with vulnerable women are constantly struggling for cash. Constantly, and this ban won't improve their lot one little bit.

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 02:45AM

I'm religious and support the ban

robindch wrote: »

And how can the state encourage enlightenment when there exist religious schools whose purpose is to fight enlightenment by exercising the politics of identity, subtle group coercion, religious supremacy, the absolute nature of religious belief, and so on?

The state and the state media are the supreme experts in brainwashing and subtle group coercion. I am sure that if they _really_ wanted to, they'd manage fighting it.

But they don't. They only want to be able to shout 'hey, we are doing something against those evil Eastasians Muslims'.

robindch wrote: »

The issue is whether or not women are free to wear or not to wear the burqa.

In general, women who subscribe to islam certainly are not free to make an unencumbered choice, and any claim that women are "free" to make this choice is at best naive and at worst, in denial of the fairly basic facts of the matter.

So you address this by... restricting their choice.

Great solution! Will really help those oppressed women to know that the government is on their heels as well as their male family members!:( That in addition to being oppressed they are also criminalised! Wow, just wow.

That's the crux. A ban DECREASES the amount of choices Muslim women have. This goes both for women for whom the burka is a lifestyle choice and those who are genuinly forced to wear it. Surely you can see that that's bad?

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 03:00AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Beruthiel wrote: »

You would be wrong to think that muslim women in europe live free lives like the rest of us.
Many of them are living a life not that different from where their parents come from. They must still marry who their parents chose for them and if they go outside the rules of the family, there are consequences, often violent.

A little taste of what it's like for a muslim girl in france

From your link

Yildiz taught me the term “femmes des quartiers,” women of the quarters. It indicated that she and those like her inhabited a double world, a day world with movies and soccer games, and a world after dark, spent within the tight boundaries of strict Muslim families marooned in a country that has done little to assimilate them.

The bold bit is the key. Instead of reaching out to those people we are criminalising then and pushing them away. To me, the real aim of the burka ban is to ensure that there are less Muslims in Europe, not that anyone actually gains rights.

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 03:32AM

I'm religious and support the ban

robindch wrote: »

And neither do the muslims have the high ground on this. If muslim men and women weren't forcing muslim women to conform to a silly dress code in the first place, then the state wouldn't have to intervene in what should, properly, be a matter of personal choice.

The state didn't start this unhappy fight.

but coercing someone to wear something was ALWAYS illegal. Always. So why ban the burka when this coercion could have been dealt with existing legislation?

If you read Beruithiel's link I quoted above you'd see that the French State had numerous chances to do something about muslim women being oppressed, and failed miserably. People went on for years highlighting the plight of young muslim girls being forced into marriage and beaten, even murdered, and the state did nada. Nothing at all. And now, when it's politically convenient, they turn around and ban the burka! Forgive my cynicism, but this smacks of islamophobia more than any genuine desire to help the vulnerable. If such a desire existed they'd have been doing it decades ago.

19-07-2010 03:48AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

PDN wrote: »

the whole point of a secular democratic society is that we tolerate stuff we don't agree with, not that we just tolerate the stuff we like anyway.

And what about the British couple last year accused of kissing in public in the Muslim emirate of Dubai. They don't want a Burka ban in European countries, we're expected to cater for their ways and yet they want to keep their own rules in their country and apply them to non Muslim people, funny that :rolleyes:

sensibleken · 19-07-2010 09:02AM

I'm religious and support the ban

hellboy99 wrote: »

And what about the British couple last year accused of kissing in public in the Muslim emirate of Dubai. They don't want a Burka ban in European countries, we're expected to cater for their ways and yet they want to keep their own rules in their country and apply them to non Muslim people, funny that :rolleyes:

Their country is France, not dubai.

Just because they are muslim does not mean they are citizens of any middle eastern country

Zombrex · 19-07-2010 09:50AM

hellboy99 wrote: »

And what about the British couple last year accused of kissing in public in the Muslim emirate of Dubai. They don't want a Burka ban in European countries, we're expected to cater for their ways and yet they want to keep their own rules in their country and apply them to non Muslim people, funny that :rolleyes:

By "they" I'm assuming you mean the current government of Dubai?

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 10:19AM

I'm religious and support the ban

hellboy99 wrote: »

And what about the British couple last year accused of kissing in public in the Muslim emirate of Dubai. They don't want a Burka ban in European countries, we're expected to cater for their ways and yet they want to keep their own rules in their country and apply them to non Muslim people, funny that :rolleyes:

you are seriously comparing a Western European country with a primitive backward hellhole like Dubai?

you don't have very high standards, do you? The point is, Dubai is NOT democratic and we don't want to be copying their ways of intolerance.

Rev Hellfire · 19-07-2010 10:33AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Moomoo1 wrote: »

you are seriously comparing a Western European country with a primitive backward hellhole like Dubai?

you don't have very high standards, do you? The point is, Dubai is NOT democratic and we don't want to be copying their ways of intolerance.

In closed communities you may as well be in a 'hellhole' like dubai, the burka and other customs serve as a mechanism for disconnecting individuals from the greater society and enforcing ties to the micro one these communities seek to maintain. You're naive if you think it is otherwise.

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 10:35AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

In closed communities you may as well be in a 'hellhole' like dubai, the burka and other customs serve as a mechanism for disconnecting individuals from the greater society and enforcing ties to the micro one these communities seek to maintain. You're naive if you think it is otherwise.

and you're naive if you think that banning the burka will change anything. Except cause a lot of vulnerable people a lot of grief.

robindch · 19-07-2010 10:44AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Moomoo1 wrote: »

a primitive backward hellhole like Dubai?

Dubai is far from being a hellhole, having seen many years ago the wisdom of opening the world's largest bar next to the world's driest country.

magicbastarder · 19-07-2010 11:03AM

I'm religious and support the ban

hellboy99 wrote: »

And what about the British couple last year accused of kissing in public in the Muslim emirate of Dubai. They don't want a Burka ban in European countries, we're expected to cater for their ways and yet they want to keep their own rules in their country and apply them to non Muslim people, funny that :rolleyes:

where's the nearest wall i can bash my head against?

Mark Hamill · 19-07-2010 12:06PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Moomoo1 wrote: »

You've been told the answer a thousand times: we allow it because we are a DEMOCRACY. And I feel that this is the thin end of the wedge. First they came for the burka wearers etc.

Just because we are in a democracy, doesn't mean we allow people to do whatever they want, evenif a majority fo people want to do it.Its naive to think that just because most people want to do something, its not going to be bad for society.

Moomoo1 wrote: »

You claim it's bad for society, and go to considerable effort to back up your claim, but fail miserably. How can a person's choice of clothing be bad for society? Only if other people have an adverse reaction. But I have news for you: your feelings are YOUR responsibility. If people have a bad reaction to the burka, they should go seek counselling. Maybe I have a bad reaction to red trousers: do I have the right to ban them?

Try actually reading my post. I explained how wearing the burka gives support for the misogynistic, barabarian, retarding views of the misogynistic and barabarian men whose power base in the middle east is sustained by people unquestioningly accepting their proclamations. This undermines the power of the elected officials here, who are (supposed to be), by principal, secualr and unbiased. You, here, have ignored what I said and inserted an argument I have never made. Resond to the points I make.

Moomoo1 wrote: »

Oppression of women - perhaps some women wearing the burka are oppressed. But is that a reason to oppress women who wear the burka by choice? No.

Again, I have explained how the people who "choose" to wear the burka do not make that choice without coercion. Read my posts before responding.

Moomoo1 wrote: »

As for unelected foreign religious leaders... do I need to mention the pope?

Look around. You are in the atheist and agnostic forum. What makes you think that I view the pope in any way different to the muslim leaders in the middle eats?

Moomoo1 wrote: »

*bangs head against wall* If you want to address oppression and discrimination of women, go and fight them DIRECTLY. Don't ban the (perceived) symbol, attack the root cause.

HOW then? I have asked this many times and have yet to recieve an answer that even begins to take account of the fact that the coercions that drive women to wear the burka will alaso keep them away from any other intervention we do (education, support groups etc).

Moomoo1 wrote: »

Just because you allow or ban garment X will not affect the treatment of women in your country. Not one little tiny bit.

It will stop them being abused with the burka.

Moomoo1 wrote: »

Something which is difficult and expensive and doesn't generate the fanfare of a ban. You spend money on support organisations, re-education. social work, etc etc. So that women know that they can break out of an oppressive environment, and have somewhere to go when they do.

These are already in place. We do not teach in our schools that women are less than men, that you need two women witnesses for every man in a court case. We have well women centres and the guards an other support organisations for helping women who feel oppressed. But they fail (with regards to the burka and religious oppression) for the same reasons that women wear the burka in the first place, they are coerced by people who will not give them the chance to break free, either through physical intimidation, or indoctrination.

Moomoo1 wrote: »

At the moment, organisations dealing with vulnerable women are constantly struggling for cash. Constantly, and this ban won't improve their lot one little bit.

How many of those women are muslims women who were forced to wear the burka?

Mark Hamill · 19-07-2010 12:09PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Moomoo1 wrote: »

you are seriously comparing a Western European country with a primitive backward hellhole like Dubai?

you don't have very high standards, do you? The point is, Dubai is NOT democratic and we don't want to be copying their ways of intolerance.

Like the burka?

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 01:21PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Like the burka?

you know exactly what I mean, don't try to pretend you don't

societies like Dubai do not respect human rights and we do. Therefore the argument of 'well, they do it so we can as well' doesn't wash.

Moomoo1 · 19-07-2010 01:34PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Just because we are in a democracy, doesn't mean we allow people to do whatever they want, evenif a majority fo people want to do it.Its naive to think that just because most people want to do something, its not going to be bad for society.

Yes, it does actually. If something does not harm anyone, people should be allowed to it. Wearing a particular costume does not harm anyone. No matter how you trying to say it does, it does not. Yes, some people are forced to wear it, but that does not make the garment itself worthy of a ban. It's being coerced into wearing it that's the problem. But that's already illegal!

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Try actually reading my post. I explained how wearing the burka gives support for the misogynistic, barabarian, retarding views of the misogynistic and barabarian men whose power base in the middle east is sustained by people unquestioningly accepting their proclamations. This undermines the power of the elected officials here, who are (supposed to be), by principal, secualr and unbiased. You, here, have ignored what I said and inserted an argument I have never made. Resond to the points I make.

And I said that your argument is fallacious. The burka is a symptom and not a cause, and those views would exist irrespective of the burka. As for a garment undermining the power of officials, I can only laugh at that groundless claim. How?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Again, I have explained how the people who "choose" to wear the burka do not make that choice without coercion. Read my posts before responding.

a) how do you know this in the case of EVERY person. How do you know lots of people don't wear it by free and unrestricted CHOICE (without going into a long argument of what choice is)?
b) how will banning the burka make the lives of people forced to wear it better? The coercion (beatings, discrimination, force marriages) will still be there, you just take away the garment!

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Look around. You are in the atheist and agnostic forum. What makes you think that I view the pope in any way different to the muslim leaders in the middle eats?

what I am trying to prove is that the motivation behind the ban is dislike of muslims and not any great desire to improve people's rights. Hence the pope comparison.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

HOW then? I have asked this many times and have yet to recieve an answer that even begins to take account of the fact that the coercions that drive women to wear the burka will alaso keep them away from any other intervention we do (education, support groups etc).

you invest more into education and support groups. Read beruithiel's link. One of the reasons her main character (Yildiz) cannot break away from her family is imho financial. It must be a major factor: many of those muslims live in poor areas and the young girls simply cannot afford to set up home by themselves.

Thousands of muslim women in france go and seek help, but the resources are so stretched that not a lot can be done.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It will stop them being abused with the burka.

The burka itself is not an abuse. The burka is a lifestyle choice. Coercion is an abuse. Forcing someone to wear something is already illegal, there's no need for extra laws there.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

These are already in place. We do not teach in our schools that women are less than men, that you need two women witnesses for every man in a court case. We have well women centres and the guards an other support organisations for helping women who feel oppressed. But they fail (with regards to the burka and religious oppression) for the same reasons that women wear the burka in the first place, they are coerced by people who will not give them the chance to break free, either through physical intimidation, or indoctrination.

and banning the burka will change that, right? No it won't, it will victimise the already victimised.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How many of those women are muslims women who were forced to wear the burka?

doesn't matter, does it: abuse of women is abuse of women...

what makes you think that banning the burka will make a woman more likely to seek help?

Burka ban

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