Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.

Understanding Transgender.

2»

Comments

  • #32
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    You most certainly are.

    I would say that it is probably 50-50. The thing is that a lot of trans people quietly "melt" back into society as soon as they have finished transition. However, MtF trans people seem to hold more of a fascination to society than FtM, and so we get talked about and written about more.
    really? I know quite a few MTF but very few FTM people - also Trans activists seem to me to be mostly MTF - I have always assumed that there are less FTMs then MTFs just as there are not as many lesbians as there are gay men!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #33
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    really? I know quite a few MTF but very few FTM people - also Trans activists seem to me to be mostly MTF - I have always assumed that there are less FTMs then MTFs just as there are not as many lesbians as there are gay men!

    Wow theres something I never heard, is it really true? Stats please! I'm interested now..

    EDIT: Are you really sure?, American wide surveys suggest your correct but I wouldn't trust them given the huge variation in viewpoints and legislation there.. The British one seems more trustworthy, intrestingly the % who answered yes to the question "Have you had a same sex partner in the last five years?" in 2000 was 2.6 exactly for both men and women. Sorry I'm blowing this off topic aren't I?

    I have to say I'd always assumed a very high percentage of transgender people were MtF, although I realise thats probably due to the medias thing about masculinity, they also would also lead you to believe 99% of gays are camp men..


  • #34
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    i know & of quite a few m/f but i dont know any f/m.
    look at the internet site tvchix they are all m/f.i have not seen any f/m .
    im not saying there are none just that i dont know any.


  • #35
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    coolvale wrote: »
    i know & of quite a few m/f but i dont know any f/m.
    look at the internet site tvchix they are all m/f.
    That is because tvchix is aimed at M2F!

    I was in Cork at the weekend, and there was more than once during the weekend when I found I was in a group containing more F2M than M2F.


  • #36
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    FTMs exist. The reality of the situation is that it probably is more 50/50. A lot of trans men choose to go under the radar soon after passing and that's pretty soon after starting testosterone.

    For info on hormone therapy for FTMs, what it can and cannot do, see here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28female-to-male%29

    Don't misappropriate the trans experience by saying 'no one notices' when a trans man transitions. Your whole world goes upside down for a bit whether you're MTF or FTM and you transition.

    The FTM side of things is filled with all sorts of 'Oh but you were so attractive' and doubt of the authenticity of your masculinity, constant obsession with genitals etc. Just like the MTF side of things has some of those elements. It's better to focus on our common ground then the differences. I resonate with a lot of the stories expressed by the trans women here.

    Being a visible woman and wearing guys clothes might not be such a big deal in our culture as a visible man wearing womens clothes BUT androgeny, queerness and trying to appear as a man (not just simply wearing the clothes) definitely gets you noticed despite maybe your best efforts. and from experience can be pretty dangerous too.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Given that being mascline is seen as often being powerful, a "woman" who expresses mascline traits or dresses in a mascline manner is seen as for the lack of a better term aping her betters.

    Where as a "man" who expresses feminine traits or dresses in a feminine manner is seen as making less of himself.

    It's screwed up, but that is still there in the subconcious of many people and of society.

    So it is easier to not wear skirts and dresses and heel and to wear boots and jeans and workshirts then it is to go the other way around, and it certianly tends to draw less notice but that doens't mean we don't have as many FTM people out there, it's just the
    double standards.


  • #38
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Eebs wrote: »
    FTMs exist. The reality of the situation is that it probably is more 50/50.
    I know that FTMs exist - I was kind of thinking aloud that there appears to be a lot less FTMs then MTFs so I was kind of wondering is it 50/50? - even the trans activists here in Ireland are MTF

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #39
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I know that FTMs exist - I was kind of thinking aloud that there appears to be a lot less FTMs then MTFs so I was kind of wondering is it 50/50? - even the trans activists here in Ireland are MTF


    Where are you getting that from??
    Firstly I consider myself a trans activist (and I'm FTM) and secondly FTMs, allys and genderqueer people are pretty involved at the moment. It's a pet peeve of mine when people say random flippant things like that so I'm not trying to start a fight but I feel like people saying 'oh there are no FTMs in activism / in Ireland' erases not just my experience but also the older generation of FTMs who really looked after me during my transition and fought hard for Trans activism (often in their own less visible ways).

    I think it's been well explained now it is likely 50/50 even though it may appear not to be. Until there is comprehensive study in Ireland we won't really know for sure but appearances are certainly deceptive.


  • #40
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I think that the FTM community has been quietly doing it's own thing, again pockets of people doing thier own thing and not having a notable public presence or profile.

    I don't think that a person who is actively involved in one part of the 'community' saying they have never encountered FTM activist erases your experience or what you know, or who you know.

    I would hope on hearing that you'd share with is so we'd all know more.

    The media is it seem fascinated with MTF so frm the outside looking in I can understand between that and that there are some rather high profile ladies out there it can seem to be a lack of FTM, as there are not as many high profile gentlemen.

    Does this stem back to the schism in the community and how it seems to be split along gender lines? The lesbian scenes being more underground and the FTM then falling inline with that?


  • #41
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Eebs wrote: »
    Where are you getting that from??
    Firstly I consider myself a trans activist (and I'm FTM) and secondly FTMs, allys and genderqueer people are pretty involved at the moment. It's a pet peeve of mine when people say random flippant things like that so I'm not trying to start a fight but I feel like people saying 'oh there are no FTMs in activism / in Ireland' erases not just my experience but also the older generation of FTMs who really looked after me during my transition and fought hard for Trans activism (often in their own less visible ways).

    I think it's been well explained now it is likely 50/50 even though it may appear not to be. Until there is comprehensive study in Ireland we won't really know for sure but appearances are certainly deceptive.
    OK sorry I actually phrased that completely wrongly - I didn't mean that there are no FTM Trans activists in Ireland - what I was kind of trying to say is that MTF trans activists seem to be much more prominent

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    OK sorry I actually phrased that completely wrongly - I didn't mean that there are no FTM Trans activists in Ireland - what I was kind of trying to say is that MTF trans activists seem to be much more prominent


    And I don't know where you are getting that from. Not all of the staff at TENI are MTF. A lot of the board isn't MTF. There are a fair heap of FTMs involved in the community in cork. Lydia Foy is MTF sure but she's hardly the crux of all Trans activism in Ireland.

    If you were saying that perhaps more FTM activists need to be visible in ireland than that's one way of saying it without erasing transmen and no matter what anyones opinion, the statement
    even the trans activists here in Ireland are MTF

    excludes trans men and does erase them. It's not about saying you've never encountered trans men who are activists.

    I understand now what you mean and you've conceded it should have been phrased better so it's ok. It just gets a bit old the 'FTMs aren't doing anything' shtick. Passing and going under the radar doesn't mean you're not doing anything. Everyone has their own way of helping out.

    and I commend the MTF women who are visible and in fact all LGBT people who come out and face the harsh criticism of the public that is part and parcel with being out.

    The thing about the FTM community is this, if you look for it, it's there.


  • #43
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Eebs I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to offend you in any way I was voicing aloud my perceptions

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #44
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Eebs I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to offend you in any way I was voicing aloud my perceptions

    Look it's grand now, but I felt I wanted to make my point clear.
    No offence taken.


  • #45
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The media is it seem fascinated with MTF so frm the outside looking in I can understand between that and that there are some rather high profile ladies out there it can seem to be a lack of FTM, as there are not as many high profile gentlemen.

    another thing to point out is that MTFs are sexualized far more than FTMs


  • #46
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    Links234 wrote: »
    another thing to point out is that MTFs are sexualized far more than FTMs

    I think a part of that is good oul fashioned misogyny at work too. Women are sexualised more then men and hence trans women are sexualised more also.


  • #47
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Yeah but what I mean is that because they are so sexualized they've got a much higher profile, and that's reflected in how visible trans girls are in pornography, but there are much fewer trans guys


  • #48
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    Links234 wrote: »
    Yeah but what I mean is that because they are so sexualized they've got a much higher profile, and that's reflected in how visible trans girls are in pornography, but there are much fewer trans guys

    Understood. You're absolutely right. I always think it's interesting that a lot of 'Johns' who get services from trans women / buy trans porn usually end up giving money which goes towards the trans woman's SRS. but trans women being pre-op is what they have the fetish for. So essentially they're destorying their own fantasy by indulging it.


  • #49
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Eebs wrote: »
    Understood. You're absolutely right. I always think it's interesting that a lot of 'Johns' who get services from trans women / buy trans porn usually end up giving money which goes towards the trans woman's SRS. but trans women being pre-op is what they have the fetish for. So essentially they're destorying their own fantasy by indulging it.

    yeah, I like the irony
    people who like trans girls can be right creeps sometimes, I used to post a lot on the various chans that are out there, and there's a lot of jerks who'd really put down anyone who's had SRS, or if someone said they wanted it, there'd be a load of anonymous posts saying not to. it's not just the johns either, you get it from girls as well. I remember I spent hours talking to this girl one night who just didn't want to talk to me once I said that I wanted SRS. at first she tried to put me off the idea but I wasn't listening to any of it, so when i told her that I can't even stand to be touched down there, she stopped talking to me completely.
    doesn't feel good to only be wanted for something you don't even like about yourself :(


  • #50
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    Links234 wrote: »
    yeah, I like the irony
    at first she tried to put me off the idea but I wasn't listening to any of it, so when i told her that I can't even stand to be touched down there, she stopped talking to me completely.
    doesn't feel good to only be wanted for something you don't even like about yourself :(

    Well that's not an experience unique to MTFs unfortunately. I've had several people try turn me off hormones, surgery etc and who were obsessed with my genitals.

    For the record, I think it's weird to be fetishised so intensely about a particular aspect of yourself no matter what it is.
    It's like if someone was really really obsessed with your hair colour. A fetish is beyond a preference or a like. Don't get me wrong, when it's mutual and consensual then I say more power to you, but when it's not it's so creepy and horrible.

    Also, what is with other people thinking they get to have a say about trans bodies? or anyones bodies for that matter really. Body autonomy, what's so hard to understand about that?

    I had to delete about 4 curse words from this post. Obviously I'm getting a bit ticked off thinking about it.


  • #51
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Eebs wrote: »
    Well that's not an experience unique to MTFs unfortunately. I've had several people try turn me off hormones, surgery etc and who were obsessed with my genitals.

    no, I'm sure it's not unique to MTFs at all
    if I'm being completely honest, I can't wrap my head around actually wanting to be male at all, but I'd never ever try to talk you out of it or try to put you off because I know how uncomfortable it is when your body doesn't feel right. people should mind their business


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Links234 wrote: »
    I can't wrap my head around actually wanting to be male at all
    Awh, Links, do you not understand that a transsexual doesn't "want" to be the other gender? :D

    Seriously, I can recommend meeting FtMs. (And I hope FtMs find it useful to meet us MtFs). The social issues are pretty much the same regardless of what direction you are going in. And FtMs have taught me a lot about masculinity which, in turn, has helped clarify for me what femininity means to me.

    I can totally wrap my head around FtM - it is precisely the same thing that has happened to me, just in the other direction.


  • #53
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    Awh, Links, do you not understand that a transsexual doesn't "want" to be the other gender? :D

    Seriously, I can recommend meeting FtMs. (And I hope FtMs find it useful to meet us MtFs). The social issues are pretty much the same regardless of what direction you are going in. And FtMs have taught me a lot about masculinity which, in turn, has helped clarify for me what femininity means to me.

    I can totally wrap my head around FtM - it is precisely the same thing that has happened to me, just in the other direction.

    yeah, you know what I mean :p
    they want their bodies to be physically male

    and of course, I've met FtMs before, and there's a lot that I completely understand and relate to. but what I mean is, there's an element to their side of things that I'm never gonna get. and I'm not trying to make out like there's some opposition here, because they're not. it's just that the kind of changes that a FtM wants to happen to them, made me feel like killing myself when they happened to me, so I can't relate to wanting those kind of changes

    I'm sure if there's some dude out there who was incredibly uncomfortable with growing breasts during puberty, not really relating to why I'd so desperately want them

    not relating doesn't mean I don't accept it though

    bleh, this is a muddled point, what I'm try to say is "I don't fully get it, but I fully accept it and wouldn't question you on it!" ;)


  • #54
    Freiheit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Freiheit


    I actually had a swelling of my breasts during puberty...apparently not that uncommon for boys with hormones in a state of flux......they have since deflated!:rolleyes:


  • #55
    johnmcdnl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭johnmcdnl


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    The terms used to describe trans people are all very grey and shifting. The big problem is that no-one likes the "sexual" in "transsexual", as it has nothing to do with sexuality.

    "Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

    "Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

    To put it another way:

    "Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.


    so by this definition anyone who goes under the knife to change their sex is a transsexual.... but anyone who dresses and acts as someone of the opposite sex is a transgender...

    it's as simply as that and political correctness doesn't play a part in the choice of words imo...


  • #56
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭GalwayGuy92


    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    "Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

    "Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

    To put it another way:

    "Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.


    so by this definition anyone who goes under the knife to change their sex is a transsexual.... but anyone who dresses and acts as someone of the opposite sex is a transgender...

    it's as simply as that and political correctness doesn't play a part in the choice of words imo...

    This is a very literal interpretation and by the [real] definition someone who dresses as the opposite sex is infact a transvestite not transgender.
    I'm making an assumption here by saying this but you have to read this thread with an incredibly open mind, putting all previous ideas in the back seat. The transgendered people here have been very kind to try to help everyone understand the transgendered communittee.


  • #57
    Eebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    "Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

    "Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

    To put it another way:

    "Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.


    so by this definition anyone who goes under the knife to change their sex is a transsexual.... but anyone who dresses and acts as someone of the opposite sex is a transgender...

    it's as simply as that and political correctness doesn't play a part in the choice of words imo...


    Sex is defined by both chromosomal and sex characteristics.
    I wasn't aware that surgery changed your chromosomes.

    Nothing is 'simple' in trans peoples identities and to try clean cut it is a bit stupid. Some people are transsexual and would love to transition but for a variety of erasons are unable to. Some people are transgender, get surgery to feel more comfortable in their bodies and never change their name or sex marker.

    It's as simple as this: Everyone is so very different.


Advertisement