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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #392
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    The bigger point should be that they are no longer in their culture, and that when they come to our culture, we should be allowed to tell what parts of their culture are offensive/oppresive/barbarian.

    I think this is a problem. they are in their culture, they are french citizens and it affects people of french origin. you dont have to be an immigrant to wear the burka. plenty of ideas originate from the middle east but we dont regard christianity or islamic numerals as foreign. their culture is french also and they have more of a right to a say than us paddys.


  • #393
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    A tiny percentage of abused women go to shelters. You still need them available for if or when they do come.

    So just by having abuse shelters, we can see that abuse still exists. We need to do more things to stop it.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    How does it have the same effect? The woman is still trapped in an oppressive relationship?

    I didn't say the same effect.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    You think the man will suddenly stop being oppressive just because the woman no longer wears a burka? Muslim men who follow extreme views of the religion oppress all aspects of a woman's life, from who she can see to when she can go out to what she can read or watch.

    How does this help any of that?

    Rev Hellfire said it already. Eventually the man will have to realise that they will have to do everything outside the house-shopping, taxiiing kids around, earn a living. The strain will break them.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why? What makes you think these things aren't working as well as anything else could work?

    You said it yourself in this very post: "A tiny percentage of abused women go to shelters". Women come to expect the abuse, accept it even. Giving them a free choice way out is useless when they cant make the choice.


  • #394
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    If that is a gathering of Muslim women who all believe that wearing the burka is appropriate, then yes.
    And do you believe that each of the -- presumably -- women under each of those veils has been able to make a genuinely free and unencumbered choice to wear it?


  • #395
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    robindch wrote: »
    And do you believe that each of the -- presumably -- women under each of those veils has been able to make a genuinely free and unencumbered choice to wear it?

    Like I already said I don't know. Without knowing each individual women and their circumstances it is impossible to say.

    You could take 10 Muslim women in France after the ban who aren't wearing burka and ask the exact same question, couldn't you?

    What is the difference?


  • #396
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sensibleken wrote: »
    I think this is a problem. they are in their culture, they are french citizens and it affects people of french origin. you dont have to be an immigrant to wear the burka.

    I'm not just talking about France, I'm talking in general and anyway, while some of the people may be still living in their birth culture, they are living according to a foreign culture. What I said still applies.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    plenty of ideas originate from the middle east but we dont regard christianity or islamic numerals as foreign. their culture is french also and they have more of a right to a say than us paddys.

    Which is why we are talking about banning the burka, not islam, as its the burka aspect that is oppressive, barbaric and nonsenical (in this case). We may have christianity here, but it didn't stop us banning (christianity supported) slavery. We dont have to accept every aspect of an belief.


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  • #397
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    So just by having abuse shelters, we can see that abuse still exists. We need to do more things to stop it.

    Ok, suggest something that actually help women escape abusive men.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Rev Hellfire said it already. Eventually the man will have to realise that they will have to do everything outside the house-shopping, taxiiing kids around, earn a living. The strain will break them.

    Break them to do what? Allowing their wife out without a burka, or never oppressing them in any of the other million ways an abusive man can oppress a woman?

    Irish men were oppressing Irish women for centuries without the need for a burka. The idea that Muslim men will stop oppressing their daughters or wives simply because they cannot wear a burka anymore is, frankly, stupid.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You said it yourself in this very post: "A tiny percentage of abused women go to shelters". Women come to expect the abuse, accept it even. Giving them a free choice way out is useless when they cant make the choice.

    It isn't useless, it is the only thing you can do. You can't force a woman to realize she is being oppressed and needs help.


  • #398
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Which is why we are talking about banning the burka, not islam, as its the burka aspect that is oppressive, barbaric and nonsenical (in this case).
    Or, the burka is the symbolic "face" of Islam and it sends a message that western society has grave reservations about it's practices. Maybe.


  • #399
    Nemi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 334 ✭✭Nemi


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    And do you believe that each of the -- presumably -- women under each of those veils has been able to make a genuinely free and unencumbered choice to wear it?
    For what its worth, I suspect they haven't. But isn't the issue at stake whether we feel that blondes in Europe have a genuinely free and unencumbered choice between wearing burkas or bikinis? If we ban burkas, then we're presumably requiring women to show at least some skin.

    This seems to, pretty quickly, get us into ludicrous territory. Should ears be covered or not? How about necks? This just isn't a place where we should be regulating. If the burka is a bad thing, and you leave it to free choice, then people won't choose it.


  • #400
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Like I already said I don't know. Without knowing each individual women and their circumstances it is impossible to say.
    You're avoiding the question quite heroically, so let me ask two grindingly precise questions which won't ask you to put yourself in the mind of somebody whom you can't even see :)

    In your experience of a free society composed of individuals with differing tastes and wishes, have you ever seen every woman dress up, all the time, in the same identical colorless and shapeless clothes?

    And if your experience of a free society suggests that women don't willingly choose to dress up identically, then what does that make you think of the level of freedom in a society in which women do appear to choose to dress identically?

    Or are you genuinely arguing that women are fully liberated in a place like Afghanistan?


  • #401
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Our culture supports the idea that if you want to cover your face you can.

    It's not just about covering the face. It's about why they think the face being covered is a good thing.

    Wicknight wrote: »
    It also supports the idea that the State is not going to dictate how to think about your religion, even if it seems strange and weird to us

    Well I actually think that maybe it should.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    If you restrict those things for a certain group you are oppressing them, pure and simple.


    How? You are doing pretty much exactly what the oppressing Muslims you complain about are doing, dictating to Muslim women what they can and cannot wear.

    You seem to think the difference is that you have a good reason and are doing it for their own good.

    Isn't that exactly the logic used for the burka in the first place, that it is for the own good of the women?

    No, I think that the idea that women should cover themselves up because of religion is an unacceptable idea in the culture of the Western World. If it gives the idea that Europe is not keen on supporting the view that women should cover up that is associated with Islam teaching I'm ok with that. It's more for our own good than Muslim women's own good.


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  • #402
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    The idea that Muslim men will stop oppressing their daughters or wives simply because they cannot wear a burka anymore is, frankly, stupid.
    And that's why nobody's suggesting that banning the burqa will stop oppression. But it will stop one type of oppression.

    Which is what the point of this exercise is.


  • #403
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Nemi wrote: »
    This seems to, pretty quickly, get us into ludicrous territory. Should ears be covered or not? How about necks? This just isn't a place where we should be regulating. If the burka is a bad thing, and you leave it to free choice, then people won't choose it.

    But it's not just about covering up per se. Ban the burqa and let them go out in scarves, hats, long and loose clothing if they want.

    It's the association of the burqa with the acceptance of Islam culture that is the point, not the covering up.


  • #404
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    WomanA want's to wear the burka because she is religious and traditional. HusbandA won't let her because he does not like the stares/attention they get in public.

    WomanB does not want to wear the burka but husbandB is strict traditional and forces her to do so.

    Which woman is being oppressed?

    Taking the freedom of choice away from these ALL people is where the oppression is... not the actual wearing of it.

    The state saying you mustn't is just as oppressing as the husband saying you must.


  • #405
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Malari wrote: »
    It's the association of the burqa with the acceptance of Islam culture that is the point, not the covering up.
    Nope its attempt to disconnect them from society and normal human interaction that is the issue.


  • #406
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,104 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Malari wrote: »
    It's the association of the burqa with the acceptance of Islam culture that is the point, not the covering up.
    what don't we like about islamic culture?
    they way they prescribe arbitrary behaviour as a means of oppression.
    how do we deal with it?
    we prescribe arbitrary behaviour.


  • #407
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    robindch wrote: »
    You're avoiding the question quite heroically

    Not really. You are asking can I know that all women in the photo wearing the burka out of free will. The answer is no, given that I've no idea who these women are.

    They could all have freely chosen the burka, or they could all be doing it under pain of death.

    You appear to want me to assume based on a generalization that all or most of them wouldn't choose to wear a burka if they had the choice and therefore if they are wearing the burka they must, by the very fact that they are, have been forced into doing so.
    robindch wrote: »
    In your experience of a free society composed of individuals with differing tastes and wishes, have you ever seen every woman dress up, all the time, in the same identical colorless and shapeless clothes?

    Yes, many many times.

    school-uniform-girls_aloud-431x300.jpg

    goths.jpg
    robindch wrote: »
    And if your experience of a free society suggests that women don't willingly choose to dress up identically
    It doesn't so the rest of that question is some what irrelevant.

    I would remind everyone though the key phrase in that is "free society"

    In a free society a person can do what they want (within limits of harm danger, law etc)

    It is some what oxymoronical to suggest that in a free society the government should decide what a free woman would or wouldn't do and then restrict what they can or cannot do based on the pre-conceived idea of what they should want to do or not do.


  • #408
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Man I want to move to where ever Wicknight is living cos if that's the way all women are forced to dress I wanna be there; naturally not with my wife I'll be locking her up in doors.


  • #409
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Nope its attempt to disconnect them from society and normal human interaction that is the issue.

    And that.


  • #410
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,104 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    it's not through laws banning behaviour that societies become more free. it's (partly) through laws lifting bans on behaviour.
    banning the burka makes us more like a restrictive society, not less.


  • #411
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Man I want to move to where ever Wicknight is living cos if that's the way all women are forced to dress I wanna be there; naturally not with my wife I'll be locking her up in doors.

    Interestingly one of the most common arguments made by women wearing the burka is that they don't want to get into the rat race of fashion that they see western "liberated" women involved in.

    The need to wear makeup or hear comments that you aren't bothering. The need to wear fashionable cloths or people think there is something wrong with you.

    We are quite a judgmental society, particularly to women (look at the thousands of women's magazines that rip apart the fashion or weight of celebs).

    It shouldn't really be that hard to understand why a Muslim woman would actually be quite happy to remove herself from this, completely by her own free choice.


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  • #412
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    robindch wrote:
    In your experience of a free society composed of individuals with differing tastes and wishes, have you ever seen every woman dress up, all the time, in the same identical colorless and shapeless clothes?
    Yes, many many times.
    Let's try this question again :)

    In your experience of a free society composed of individuals with differing tastes and wishes, have you ever seen every woman dress up, all the time, in the same identical colorless and shapeless clothes?


  • #413
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    I have some questions for the posters here who most strongly support the ban (I'm looking at you robindch, Mark Hamill, Rev Hellfire):

    Do you persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa? If so have you asked them why they wear it and what was their response? Do you believe the reasons they gave you?

    If you don't persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa, have you ever had a conversation with one? Did you ask her why she wore it?


  • #414
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    robindch wrote: »
    Let's try this question again :)

    In your experience of a free society composed of individuals with differing tastes and wishes, have you ever seen every woman dress up, all the time, in the same identical colorless and shapeless clothes?

    No.

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't some how thing that answer is in conflict with what I've already said.


  • #415
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    No.
    So, given that, do you think that the women in societies which produce such dreadful conformity are -- in the same sense as we use the word -- "free"?


  • #416
    Brinley Large Ketchup
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Brinley Large Ketchup


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    I have some questions for the posters here who most strongly support the ban (I'm looking at you robindch, Mark Hamill, Rev Hellfire):

    Do you persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa? If so have you asked them why they wear it and what was their response? Do you believe the reasons they gave you?

    If you don't persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa, have you ever had a conversation with one? Did you ask her why she wore it?

    I think the closest I've ever come to that was here. It was a little odd :confused:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054850341&page=15


  • #417
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    So, given that, do you think that the women in societies which produce such dreadful conformity are -- in the same sense as we use the word -- "free"?

    Just let me jump in here.

    I'm sorry but I don't see where your line of arguing is going. You are arguing against a society that forces women to all wear the burka or similar, I don't think anyone here is saying we should live in such a society. Are you arguing that if we allow women to dress freely as they see fit, one day we will turn into such a society? If not then why bring it up?

    We're talking about women being free to wear what they want, including a burka if they so wish. Argue against that.


  • #418
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    I have some questions for the posters here who most strongly support the ban (I'm looking at you robindch, Mark Hamill, Rev Hellfire):

    Do you persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa? If so have you asked them why they wear it and what was their response? Do you believe the reasons they gave you?

    If you don't persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa, have you ever had a conversation with one? Did you ask her why she wore it?
    You may as well be asking me do I know any women who are kept locked up in their house and did I ask them what they thought of it.

    Any women who wears a burqa would not either wish or be permitted to socialise with me sufficiently for me to ask such a question, but you already knew that didn't you.


  • #419
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,538 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Whatever happened to "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."


  • #420
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sink wrote: »
    We're talking about women being free to wear what they want, including a burka if they so wish.
    I'm suggesting pretty much the opposite -- that there's little or nothing "free" about the choice to wear the burqa in the first place.


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  • #421
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Similar to the brainwashing of Americans/Europeans that all Islamics are suicide bombers and oppressors of women? That kind of brainwashing?
    I didn't get that brainwashing, I got the one where I was told that some Islamics are suicide bombers and oppressors of woman. That seems to fit quite nicely with reality.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Has the French government had any kind of consultation process with women who wear the burqa? Or have they decided to ban this without even getting the view of the people it will affect?
    To be honest, I don't know. But I would doubt the value of any such consultation.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    I have some questions for the posters here who most strongly support the ban (I'm looking at you robindch, Mark Hamill, Rev Hellfire):

    Do you persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa? If so have you asked them why they wear it and what was their response? Do you believe the reasons they gave you?

    If you don't persoanally know any Muslim women who wear the burqa, have you ever had a conversation with one? Did you ask her why she wore it?
    Not directed at me, but I will answer anyway. my personal opinion is that even when a woman freely chooses to wear it, she is not freely choosing to wear it.

    MrP


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