FPS Limit of sniper rifles

Ain't gonna happen this side of the next election, and probably not the one after that either.

Also, if we wanted to make a safety case for such a change we'd need several years' worth of, er, bulletproof statistics to back it up. And I'm pretty confident that the airsofters who understand how much work that would take can be counted on one or maybe two hands.

Sorry. Save your energy for something achievable. Proper changing rooms and M/F toilets on every site would be a good start.

Classified differently, as far as I'm aware. I'm not totally up on paintball device laws but, while they don't need a licence, they do need a permit. They're excluded from classification as a firearm.

fayer wrote: »

Good point to note, the 1J came from British House of Commons, Home Affairs Second Report, 6 April 2000 and the Control of Firearms in Northern Ireland and the Draft Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2002, that stated that 1.35 joule is required to cause permanent damage to the eye and 3 - 4 Joule is required to penetrate the skin.

And the current NI limit of 1 Joule is based upon this.
The Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 ( Section 9(1))
I foresee it as highly likely that the rest of the UK will follow suit in the coming years. With Scotland already hoping to overhaul their firearms legislation.

The key point was this as quoted by a minister on the above-mentioned Home Affairs Select Committee talking about Forensic Science Northern Ireland ( an impartial agency within the Department of Justice ) who had carried out ballistics research in NI:
"...held very firmly to the view that if it was below one joule then they could say in all confidence that any weapon that had that kind of kinetic energy would not pose a lethal threat, but they could not say the same about weapons that had a higher value".

All 20 member sites of the United Kingdom Airsoft Sites Governing Body (UKASGB) already observe the 1 Joule limit, albeit with a discretionary +10% as the 1 Joule is not enshrined in law in mainland Britain. It is enshrined in law in NI as I've linked above.
Plus, plenty of other sites which aren't UKASGB members also observe the 1 Joule limit due to either insurance reasons or just common sense safety reasons.
There aren't really that many sites across the water that allow 500fps bolt-actions, as those sites require specialist insurance. And that there is already some debate on this grey area. As what their insurance covers and what's legal are 2 entirely different things.

daz801 wrote: »

now befor people start saying that you'd need to get evryones permission, theres a solution to that. If a sight and included it in a waiver then it would be people own decision to play there.

You can't waive your right to not be assaulted. Besides which, I'd imagine this would be criminal law rather than civil law, so it wouldn't be up to the 'victim'.
And bear in mind that paintballs are liquid filled and have different ballistic characteristics to a BB.

I'd wonder if most peoples eye / face protection could cope with anything much beyond 1 Joule? I managed to break some guys glasses a few weeks ago using nothing but a TM shotty firing at 250fps from about 15 - 20ft away.
He'd been under the impression that his glasses were Oakley ballistic glasses. They were neither ballistic glasses or Oakleys. Turns out they were cheap Oakley clone sunglasses. Luckily the BBs deflected ok and he was fine.

If some people can't be content with what they've already got, how will they be happy with more?

McGilla wrote: »

1stly why are people shooting (pardon the pun) this Topic down?

Not every one on boards has been here all along, so topics are going to be re opened, its what happens with evolving media such as forums!

I think people are almost scared to discuss topics here that might disagree with "The Man" -

You will learn soon enough my young padawan. Theres a great difference between
scared
Implying that we fear some greater power making our bum cheeks red from repeated slapping

and

Not arsed
Having the same topic, appear for the 50th time, where everyone knows the anwser and stupid and retarded debates have come from it. Everyone would love higher fps, everyone agrees higher fps would be awesome, but for reasons why they arnt at higher fps, read posts above, or check my picture.

I cant see the Airsoft community being large enough to influence law, (soccer fans cant even get video refs!)

There is no governing body that over sees laws and gameplay in airsoft, plus we dont have a group of old age dopes who know nothing about airsoft telling us

"Video marshalls would ruin airsoft, players love spreading the hate over who doesnt take hits"

As someone whose taking shots from 500fps sniper rifles, and 450 fps fully automatic rifles, your eye protection isnt an issue.

Your eye protection isnt ballistic rated for airsoft, its ballistic rated for real steel, on what basis I dont know, I think its like shotgun rounds or something.

It will hurt yeah, a little bit more. but the main point of your post is engagement ranges.

I would dread the day we bring higher fps into this country I really do.

It works in other countries because of the sportsmanship and the way people play the games over there. I know I always harper on about milsim and skirmishing etc, but could you honestly imagine putting 100 people with 450 fps rifles out in a site in ireland during a skirmish.

I assure you there would be six dead bodies by lunch. There too much an emphasis on shooting someone as much as possible, and tbh its a pretty dirty thing I'm seeing on more and more sites by players, just mindless full auto fire at close ranges. Incidently, all hicaps, all hi rate of fire guns : /

Its nothing to do with being a bitch or anything, I can just about take it with 1 joule people doing it, and 450 fps I'd probably stop playing airsoft.

NakedDex wrote: »

, and the IAA have done a sterling job

Pity your wallet never supported them, or did you go get membership eventually :P

As has already been said, be happy you can play airsoft at all in this country, and that the IAA managed to keep it that way, had it not been for them, we'd either not be playing at all right now, or running around with clear plastic AEGs with orange tips (no joke, that was the DoJ's proposal)

TheDoc wrote: »

You will learn soon enough my young padawan. Theres a great difference between
scared
Implying that we fear some greater power making our bum cheeks red from repeated slapping

and

Not arsed
Having the same topic, appear for the 50th time, where everyone knows the anwser and stupid and retarded debates have come from it. Everyone would love higher fps, everyone agrees higher fps would be awesome, but for reasons why they arnt at higher fps, read posts above, or check my picture.



There is no governing body that over sees laws and gameplay in airsoft, plus we dont have a group of old age dopes who know nothing about airsoft telling us

"Video marshalls would ruin airsoft, players love spreading the hate over who doesnt take hits"

I wasn't here for the previous threads on this discussion! - so I'll take part in it now! - New members to boards are entitled to! - simples :cool:

If you're "not arsed" then why take screen shots etc, just dont post!

Im sick of people that have been using boards for a long time lecturing new members, its like we have to earn our stripes before you'll let us come play! (very keyboard warrior)

Anyway ....................................Back on Topic

I know it is never realisticly going to change, but If the 1 Joule rule was changed for sniper rifles, I would like to think it would only be increased for Bolt Actions, with a mag capacity limit, and also maybe a way of controling which players are allowed to use them on site.

For instance only players who have been playing for a couple of years maybe, and understand engement distances etc, would be allowed to bring them on site.

I do understand this will never happen!

sliabh wrote: »

We struggle to get people to adhere to existing rules (like mag limits for mil-sim games), so I can't see this working. And my mind starts to hurt when I think about how you check the things you have suggested as well, and thats even before you get to enforcing them.

In my head I see the father of some young fella with a 550 fps rifle having a row with a site owner about why his son is totally responsible and should be allowed to play with his cannon if he wants.

Yeah, seriously, there were a few hot guns turned back from the chrono at Ops and though we had no problems with people overloading mags (we were doing spot checks on this) we did have a lot of issues with people simply not realising they needed midcaps (seriously). Yet you expect people to adhere to a complicated rule on who can use a particular gun, how much ammo they can carry, minimum engagement ranges. It'd be a nightmare to enforce.

I'd love to live in a world where we could have higher power guns for some uses, but because there will always be a minority of wreckers we can't.

fayer wrote: »

The most important point regarding any change to the law, it must be simple and easy, not require any back office systems (who's been playing longer, who's a member of what).

Again, this is something the community should look for in a few years, our current legislative victory is still being but into force, we need some time showing we are responsible and able to abide by the laws we have been given before asking for power increases.

They could look to do it like the UK were you Must be a member of a Club to play i wouldn't think that would be a massive problem , as for policing who fires the 500fps guns i agree that would be hard and again i could see a parent with that argument on a site when little jonny wants to play COD style sniper

OzCam wrote: »

QFT. I've already seen an argument between a site operator and a father whose son didn't meet the age limit, so that kind of thing does happen.

To be clear, most ballistic glasses are only rated to 3J. My personal opinion is that I'd like to see the whole world come down to 1J. There is zero chance of me spending 5 years gathering data to support a case for a higher limit.

Any puncture to the eyeball is a catastrophic injury - you are almost guaranteed to lose the eye. 1.35J is enough to do that, if a player's goggles fail for some reason. There is far less margin for error here than people think.

0.20g @ 152 m/s = 2.3J

Thanks Casper, post saved.

When I discus this Topic it is normally in a hypathetical mind set.

I do understand that it could lead to catastrophic injures, and as a result I would agree it is best for the sport to stay as it is, and try to incerease range by other methods!

But it would be nice!!!

But back to my hypothetical world, if we increased bolts to 1.5 J Id imagine full face protection would become compulsary!

BioHazRd wrote: »

[Read above]

I was referring to the gameplays rules and in a way counter acting the reference to football and FIFA.

The IAA in the past few years has been focusing on important issues no doubt,and non important issues that just took a whale load of attention.

But it cannot be ignored that the IAA has never meaningfully engaged in streamlining rules, regulations or any game play mechanics or anything like that, since its inception.
(unless present or past committees have, and its just not on the site).

It would be nice to see the IAA in a position where for some length of time its not dealing with silly bull****( not that you categorized it as high priority and i feel it bull****, you know what i mean) and can focus on the game itself. Up till now its been very much every site owner for themselves which is grand, but it would be nice to get some things streamlined across every site that has pledged itself to the IAA.

To this day, we are still having aggro on field with confusions and arguments over that stupid bang kill rule.

Players are still not aware of how to act when they receive a knife kill.

Safety briefings are different in every site.

Every site has different rules surrounding their environment as to whats acceptable in one place isnt in another.

And theres a ton more.

Its menial ****, but it would be sweet to have some way to streamline the basics.

also at some point I'd like to see an avenue to report abusive players and cheaters, in the hope they will be barred from attending IAA alligned sites.

Maybe a wild dream, but hopefully one day instead of having to deal with the crappy scenario I outlined in another thread, I can have some official means of complaint that can hopefully put punishment to a player proven guilty. Instead of them just appearing on site again next week...

McGilla wrote: »

if we increased bolts to 1.5 J Id imagine full face protection would become compulsary!

I wouldnt imagine so, there is inherently an increase in bruising, loosing teeth etc.

But there is a host of peeps here who have rocked it abroad sporting just the goggles and come back to tell the tail with two front teeth.

I think its very over exagerated to how much of a difference there is between 1j/328fps and say 450-500fps

Performance wise its very minimal, remember its just making the BB travel faster from the barell, so close yeah its going to sting that little bit more.
But most of us at Berget kept with 1joule guns and had no problem putting it up to the going rate of 500fps there.