FPS Limit of sniper rifles

Riderlad · 06-07-2010 03:19PM #1

I think the irsh laws regarding airsoft should be changed to the same as the english laws, in england the fps limits of a single shot bolt action sniper rifle can be up to 500 fps on some sites. Seriously whats the point of a sniper rifle with the same range of a standard aeg. Whos with me??

swiftblade · 06-07-2010 03:23PM

Here we go again :rolleyes:

The law is the law. It's not going to change.

Genghiz Cohen · 06-07-2010 03:25PM

Ah, I remember when I was like you.
The came the crushing realisation that we have what we have almost purely by luck. Keep the head down and let the IAA do the talking.

touge_drift · 06-07-2010 03:26PM

Riderlad wrote: »

I think the irsh laws regarding airsoft should be changed to the same as the english laws, in england the fps limits of a single shot bolt action sniper rifle can be up to 500 fps on some sites. Seriously whats the point of a sniper rifle with the same range of a standard aeg. Whos with me??

probablly no one here.

its for safety and well its the law

Leftyflip · 06-07-2010 03:28PM

Riderlad · 06-07-2010 03:36PM

I played at a site in scotland 3 weeks ago and i just found that the slightly larger fps limit really changes the sniping experience

Lemming · 06-07-2010 03:41PM

Riderlad wrote: »

I played at a site in scotland 3 weeks ago and i just found that the slightly larger fps limit really changes the sniping experience

At risk of pointing out the obvious; Scotland is not the Republic of Ireland. That is all that needs to be said for this particular argument at this moment in time.

Edit: I'll also add that whilst t he sniping 'experience' may change, with it comes a change in responsibility as well. I've played two sites in Scotland; one of which (the other was 'closed' for renovation) will not allow 420+fps sniper rifles out until the player has been shadowed and subsequently endorsed by a marshall with sniping experience.

You must be aware of your engagement ranges as you can cause some very nasty injuries with that increased FPS. Some sites (the above included) require snipers carry side-arms for the express purpose of minimum engagement ranges. So there are downsides and great responsibilities that come with the territory.

With all that said and done, some of the best sniping & counter-sniping in the UK comes from sub-500fps guns. Why? Because when everyone expects you to be 25m+ away .... to discover you're 15ft away in a bush with a 1j sniper rifle they'd have discounted has its own merits ... and that's an art form in itself; the ability to "stalk" and get up close whilst remaining undetected.

swiftblade · 06-07-2010 04:15PM

I can't believe im giving thought to this, but i for one would not like to see an increse in the FPS limit. "Oh noes, ye cant be serious !?!?"

At minute its perfect. Sure we can't hit targets 1 mile away, but isn't that all part of the challenge?

For an increse in the energy limit it would proubley mean the limiting of sales to people.

Long story short "Don't fix something that isn't broken"

Why this is even being disscused is beyond me :rolleyes:

Blazer · 06-07-2010 04:20PM

I see it as a long term change..would be nice to have bolt action snipers at say max 450 or something close to it...I reckon a lot more people would take up sniping but they would have to be properly marshalled etc.
It would definitely make games more interesting as obviously the AEG guys etc would have to use tactics such as flanking etc to take out snipers once they identified where they were...
And I'd go for a limit of snipers per team depending on the crowds..last thing you want is 30 sniper all camping waiting for the enemy

But I'm happy to be playing the game as it is..if it happens further on down the road fantastic, if it doesn't it won't matter as I'll still be playing the game anyway

McGilla · 06-07-2010 04:34PM

1stly why are people shooting (pardon the pun) this Topic down?

Not every one on boards has been here all along, so topics are going to be re opened, its what happens with evolving media such as forums!

Deep Breath!

I agree completely OP! - There is no tactical advantage to having a bolt action rifle having the same range as an MP5K, but the slower rate of fire.

I think people are almost scared to discuss topics here that might disagree with "The Man" - and I can undertstand, we are lucky to have such a great sport... BUT

I think an increase for bolt action, maybe magazine size limit too, would be good for the sport!

I cant see the Airsoft community being large enough to influence law, (soccer fans cant even get video refs!)

But its worth discussing!

(And people please try and refrain from posting " Why are we discussing this?" if you dont want to talk about it, get back to work!)

Leftyflip · 06-07-2010 04:39PM

If you want more range, upgrade! Seriously, there's some great hops out there that will increase range and barrels to increase accuracy, heavier BB's are also dead handy.
The main reason we can't discuss this is because it is against the Charter. One joule is grand, its up to you to take advantage and overcome the limitations.

Lemming · 06-07-2010 04:41PM

McGilla wrote: »

There is no tactical advantage to having a bolt action rifle having the same range as an MP5K, but the slower rate of fire.

There is actually, and I've already said what it is. Proximity to target has pros and cons both ways ...

Besides, the most impressive feat of sniping I've ever encountered was done with an NBB socom at close range; whilst the guy was *bang* smack in the middle of an enemy group. In plain view in a Ghillie suit. For roughly ten/fifteen minutes he supressed an entire area of base perimeter through sheer guile and inovative thinking.

sliabh · 06-07-2010 04:53PM

McGilla wrote: »

1stly why are people shooting (pardon the pun) this Topic down?

Not every one on boards has been here all along, so topics are going to be re opened, its what happens with evolving media such as forums!

I think people are almost scared to discuss topics here that might disagree with "The Man" -
(And people please try and refrain from posting " Why are we discussing this?" if you dont want to talk about it, get back to work!)

In answer to all those statements/questions, the charter says

* There will be no discussion of airsoft greater than 1 joule.

Expect a mod along soon I guess.

NakedDex · 06-07-2010 05:10PM

A bolt action rifle does not make you a sniper, and a 500fps bolt action does not make you a better sniper.

What makes you a sniper is your mindset, intelligence, patience and knowledge.

The greatest sniper I have ever had the pleasure of playing with/against (who is, unfortunately, long since gone from the sport) never once complained about the limits. In fact, I once watched in awe as he silently knife-killed sixteen people in a row (me being the first one), keeping only his pistol in his hand as proof that he was still playing.
With him, you would see him in the safe zone, but never in the game. You'd know he was playing, however, because you'd randomly see people in various positions (often times people you hadn't even seen until this point) standing up and shouting hit, then walking away wondering where that single, silent round came from.
That's a sniper, and he used a TM VSR G-Spec that consistently put out 310fps, not an oversized personal cannon that put out 500fps.

Stop blaming the tools, and learn the craft.

Lemming · 06-07-2010 05:20PM

NakedDex wrote: »

In fact, I once watched in awe as he silently knife-killed sixteen people in a row (me being the first one), keeping only his pistol in his hand as proof that he was still playing.

That was the incident where he got handed a tenner for knife-killing me (damn you Gandalf) as a challenge had been laid down for someone to knife-kill me the first day the '60 saw action at HRTA. That was mid-September 2007. Was hillarious to watch him do the other ten or so folks

J.D.R · 06-07-2010 05:39PM

This will not happen.

But, if it does, you have to bring in other FPS changes. Like, if we increase the FPS on snipers, we need to decrease the FPS on Pistols and smgs, and slightly increase the FPS on support weopons. It's a bit stupid having a 500 fps sniper when your back up pistol has the same FPS as the enemies M4.

Puding · 06-07-2010 05:42PM

Would a higher fps limit in general be nice, of course it would
Would a hight fps for springers be nice, of course it would

going to happen any time soon, not really

also you have to look at the negatives of a higher fps, i would not trust some people with 1 joule let alone anything else, have a lot of idouts running around with hight powered springers is not fun, it is why a lot of sites have limits on who can use them, been to a lot of sites in the uk that need you to be a regular and proven you can be trusted with it and can judge the minimum engagement range correctly

flashinbluelite · 06-07-2010 05:55PM

NakedDex wrote: »

The greatest sniper I have ever had the pleasure of playing with/against (who is, unfortunately, long since gone from the sport) never once complained about the limits. In fact, I once watched in awe as he silently knife-killed sixteen people in a row (me being the first one), keeping only his pistol in his hand as proof that he was still playing.

That's a sniper, and he used a TM VSR G-Spec that consistently put out 310fps, not an oversized personal cannon that put out 500fps.

sorry dex , im still very active in airsoft :P

obviously not me people calm down the hasty replies....

but i agree completely. 500fps sniper rifle does not mean good sniper....
neither does being 6foot5 and 100 kilos "yeah be a sniper Keith" real good call

stupid bigness making me all noisy and sh1t

daz801 · 06-07-2010 06:14PM

i agree and disagree with this.
i dont think just anyone should be aloud, there should be a system like mentioned in the english sight.

But there wouldn't need to be a change in law would there??
paintball guns are over the 1j limit and are aloud, so if a person had a licence (or mayby a sight gets a few and rents them to people, again using the) for a bolt action over 1j it would be an good.

now befor people start saying that you'd need to get evryones permission, theres a solution to that. If a sight and included it in a waiver then it would be people own decision to play there. Then they could also have it open to people who have there own licence.
it would be the same as a paint ball sight

just my 2 cents

Witcher · 06-07-2010 06:17PM

daz801 wrote: »

so if a person had a licence (or mayby a sight gets a few and rents them to people, again using the) for a bolt action over 1j it would be an good.

There has to be a serial number on the gun to get a licence and is not possible with an airsoft gun and technically you'd be assaulting people with a firearm by shooting them with it. It's just not feasible in that form.

NakedDex · 06-07-2010 06:37PM

Even if you managed to find a way to serialise and licence them, you're still using a firearm to shoot people.
If you were to use a real gun on someone who asked you to shoot them in the leg (lets assume you were both insane at this point), his permission to shoot him doesn't actually provide you with any defence against a charge of assault with a firearm.

We're getting a bit far off the topic though.

I regularly see dozens of lads with bolt action rifles. Over the years, it's climbed into the three figure bracket. However, I've only ever seen four snipers to date.

Blazer · 06-07-2010 06:44PM

NakedDex wrote: »

Stop blaming the tools, and learn the craft.

whoa whoa whoa...No one here is blaming the tools

...obviously the Op is new to the sport (judging from his post count), it's just a simple discussion of fps for bolt action.
I don't see the harm in it honestly...no one is talking about upgrading their rifles over the legal limit, plus I've seen discussions on >1j on the berget thread etc so what's the harm in it..
It's simply would we like to have the limit raised for bolts and in an ideal world..yes we would ..thank you very much

Unfortunately/fortunately depending on your point it will probably take a good few years even indeed this ever happened.

Even if it did make it to law I'd still like the sites to have the final say on whether they'd want it or not...not every site can afford to have marshall's babysitting snipers etc..

NakedDex · 06-07-2010 07:02PM

I meant that in an advisory tone, not an offensive one.
I regularly see young/new/old/experienced players say they want a bolt action rifle to go out sniping. Invariably, I see the same rifle they purchased appear on Adverts a few weeks later because the idea of sniping properly didn't actually appeal to them as much as they thought it would when they were watching Shooter for the tenth time.
When I say that, I mean it in a very literal sense and directed at those people. Your ability to become a sniper is not hampered by your equipment, whether that choice be a bog standard BAR10 punching out 290fps or a tarted up Tanaka recording 490fps. It's up to the person themselves to figure out whether they're willing to adapt their playing style and mindset into that of a sniper, because it is a *vastly* different role.

Generally speaking, most people who think they want a bolt action rifle are better off starting out with something like an M16 or G3 and using it as a marksmans rifle. Get the feel of stand-off ranges at 1J and the shift in dynamics you get by not being an assaulter anymore.
Just because you can tart up a TM M14 to have the same range as a bolt action rifle, doesn't mean you have a rifle for sniping in your hand. Nor does it mean the 1J rating of said bolt action rifle renders it redundant among all other gun choices. Bolt action rifles have one massive advantage over every other device on the field:
They're silent.
Two M16 users engage each other from hedgerows. Neither can see the other clearly but they can hear the whine of the gearboxes so each fires in that direction. Eventually one will get hit, after a couple of hundred rounds are no doubt wasted.
Put two bolt action rifles in that scenario, and see how the entire situation shifts. No sound to follow, no steady stream of ammo flying through the air to give away location.

Sniping is about subtlety. That's something a bolt action rifle will give you, regardless of the energy rating.

I do wish some sites would keep one or two bolt-action rifles in their rental choices, it'd help a lot of wannabe snipers figure out if it's actually for them without dropping out the dosh for a rifle they will end up not wanting.

Witcher · 06-07-2010 07:02PM

In a perfect world the limit would be higher but in my opinion the chances of the law being changed to accommodate us is very very slim. A higher limit would need regulation of both:

Players(Do they know engagement distances? Have they previous experience with sniping?)

Rifles(Are people trying to break even the upper limit of 500fps for example by going to 600fps? This problem is present now though with the 1J limit)

The government aren't interested in whether Tom the sniper wants a 2 Joule sniper rifle at this point in time. We have only recently secured the future of 1 joule airsoft in Ireland, pushing for an increase in the limit now isn't the wisest thing to do.

We have to prove we can regulate and control ourselves with 1 joule before putting the case forward for a power increase:)

J.D.R · 06-07-2010 07:18PM

Blay wrote: »

In a perfect world the limit would be higher but in my opinion the chances of the law being changed to accommodate us is very very slim. A higher limit would need regulation of both:

Players(Do they know engagement distances? Have they previous experience with sniping?)

Rifles(Are people trying to break even the upper limit of 500fps for example by going to 600fps? This problem is present now though with the 1J limit)

The government aren't interested in whether Tom the sniper wants a 2 Joule sniper rifle at this point in time. We have only recently secured the future of 1 joule airsoft in Ireland, pushing for an increase in the limit now isn't the wisest thing to do.

We have to prove we can regulate and control ourselves with 1 joule before putting the case forward for a power increase:)

I know:eek:! Lets ring Joe Duffy. I'm sure he can help us

Witcher · 06-07-2010 07:25PM

J.D.R wrote: »

I know:eek:! Lets ring Joe Duffy. I'm sure he can help us

It's easy to dismiss what I said but I like alot of others in this thread was around when there was a chance airsoft wouldn't survive and for people who remember that time the security we have now is a miracle and I'm glad we have airsoft in 1J form nevermind 2J.

fayer · 06-07-2010 07:27PM

Just to point out the law in the UK dose not differentiate between bolt action and automatic Airsoft devices, the sites set the rules in this respect.

If you want to change the law best option is to speak to the IAA (info@irishairsoft.ie), they have a close connection with the government and always take there policy lead from the community, they successfully changed the law in the past for the betterment of the sport. If Airsoft stays off the radar for a while small changes like this should actually be achievable, shame some sites and retailers are doing us no favors in this respect.

Good point to note, the 1J came from British House of Commons, Home Affairs Second Report, 6 April 2000 and the Control of Firearms in Northern Ireland and the Draft Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2002, that stated that 1.35 joule is required to cause permanent damage to the eye and 3 - 4 Joule is required to penetrate the skin. Considering we were eye protection the increase is safe. However a large PR tool that has been used to bail out the sport in the past is that no matter who buys the kit it is still safe, this increase would remove that defense.

Lemming · 06-07-2010 07:38PM

fayer wrote: »

Just to point out the law in the UK dose not differentiate between bolt action and automatic Airsoft devices, the sites set the rules in this respect.

Actually yes it does. The law is more intended towards air rifles and the like; but it goes something along the lines of anything above 371 fps that is self-loading is a section five firearm.

What that translates to anything that can * fire more than one round in a single trigger pull is a big no no.

Sites have set the limits on bolties themselves, most definitely though.

* And here in lies the subtle debate on whether or not a semi-auto AEG operating as a DMR above 370fps is legal or not (since internals can fail and default to auto)

Blazer · 06-07-2010 07:38PM

NakedDex wrote: »

I do wish some sites would keep one or two bolt-action rifles in their rental choices, it'd help a lot of wannabe snipers figure out if it's actually for them without dropping out the dosh for a rifle they will end up not wanting.

what??:eek: and have us miss out on the bargain snipers for sale in adverts?

agree with your point though..
I've a magpul M4 which I bought recently and the range is excellent on it (fires at approx 320fps).
I've a CA M24 sniper rifle though which fires at 285-300 and yet every shot will fly way farther than the M4 thanks to the PDI hopup, precision barrel etc. plus it's deadly quiet

Next up is a twist barrel to give it even more distance and all this time it's still well within the legal limit.

fayer · 06-07-2010 07:38PM

Noticed some huffing and puffing on the first page, here is a nice (old) doc from 2008 explains a huge amount about airsoft for those that dont know the history, physics legal position.

IAA Proposals on Legislative Change, December 2008

Plenty more here
IAA Doc's

fayer · 06-07-2010 07:40PM

Lemming wrote: »

Actually yes it does. The law is more intended towards air rifles and the like; but it goes something along the lines of anything above 371 fps that is self-loading is a section five firearm.

That that translates to anything that can fire more than one round in a single trigger pull is a big no no.

I stand corrected if that is the case, the UK firearms laws are a mess. i thought however one of the amendments separated the class of device? Anyway that is there problem

Back to the revolution!

FPS Limit of sniper rifles

Comments