another suspended sentence

06-07-2010 12:49PM

easyeason3 wrote: »

Yeah the someway fishy is that no matter how developed you are or tarted up as a 12 year old you will still look like a child & unless these men were Stevie Wonder I fail to see how they couldn't have known.

Not always, I worked in a place before and there was a gorgeous girl working there.. Really really stunning like. So second day, after working with her the day before, one of the lads goes 'what age do ya think she is?'. I say 20-21.. He goes 'yea everyone who sees her says that, she's only 13, workin here illegally'.

Never been so shocked.. She didn't even look tarty nd before I found out, I thought she was better looking than pretty much anyone else I knew at the time. She even acted older.

Definition of jailbait.

thebigbiffo · 06-07-2010 12:59PM

El Siglo wrote: »

How do you know what's going through her head? She was still a fucking child, if these lads had sex with her it's still statutory rape. After the Ryan Report, the state now has a duty of care towards children. No matter how much you don't like it, no matter how much you think the victim is a little 'hussy', the law is the law and these lads should be prosecuted to the full extent of it. Regardless of their position now. I'm not calling for a lynch mob, just a mandatory sentence.
The bit that everyone is missing is that this case could be used as a defence in the future where you could have an adult who raped a child claiming he didn't know, he was young at the time himself etc... this case will set an ugly precendent for any future victims.

i'm saying there are mitigating circumstances, that's all. if those include her being a hussy, looking over the age of 13, being well aware of her actions and basically acting like an adult then so be it, and the judge is right to take that into account.

if in another case the circumstances are different, then the judge will sentence taking that into account. i stand by my opinion, based on the facts we are given, that a suspended senntence is right here.

brianthebard · 06-07-2010 01:29PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

this whole case is f'ucked up and shouldn't represent a bandwagon for people to jump on regarding sentencing or child abuse.

this girls parents went f'ucking drinking with lads who they know full well were shagging their daughter. the girl, although waaayyy too young knew exactly what she was doing and she admitted hiding her age from these men. these lads were all in their late teens when this **** happened and the age difference, if there is even a shred of doubt about what this girl looked like, acted like or told these guys is negligable and doesn't automatically scream 'peado childabuser' in my mind. if you ask me, the f'uckin parents should be charged too. i've no sympathy for these lads, but this case is no cut and dry 'let them hang' senario and some of the lynch mob on here should show some objectivity.

Agree with this, the headline is very misleading, yes it was a case of statutory rape, but that's an outdated concept that should be done away with, there needs to be more accountability on both sides and consideration of the facts, not a cut and dry conviction based solely on age. If anything that's probably what the judge did here, but instead of being considered progressive or thoughtful he's an idiot that got to be a judge by collecting tea bag tokens. Additionally, people here need to realise that the statutory rape rule is equally applicable to a 16 year old and her boyfriend who's a month older than her as it is to this chap. Is that really the sort of absolutist, no consideration of the facts sort of legal system we want to continue to use?

fizzynicenice · 06-07-2010 01:32PM

Blah blah blah, high horse, high horse, high horse...
Everybody shut the fuck up

Celly Smunt · 06-07-2010 01:41PM

r3nu4l wrote: »

It's scaaandalous Joe, bleedin' scandalous!

go on! go on sure! go on!

OutlawPete · 06-07-2010 01:58PM

easyeason3 wrote: »

.. no matter how developed you are or tarted up as a 12 year old you will still look like a child & unless these men were Stevie Wonder I fail to see how they couldn't have known.

Sorry, but that's just not true.

I have seen loads of hot girls that turned out to be 12 or 13, especially black girls.

There isn't a man alive who would doubt if this girl was of legal age.

The girl is 13 in that pic by the way.

prinz · 06-07-2010 02:08PM

brianthebard wrote: »

Agree with this, the headline is very misleading, yes it was a case of statutory rape, but that's an outdated concept that should be done away with, there needs to be more accountability on both sides and consideration of the facts, not a cut and dry conviction based solely on age.

This would be alright if it was an isolated incident. It wasn't, it was part of months of incidents. It would also be a bit of a grey area if the context was a girl in a pub or a niteclub etc and a one night stand, it wasn't, this girl was repeatedly sexually assaulted by some of these 'men' on the grounds of a primary school, amongst others. There are other men serving prison sentences for offences involving this girl. Some of these men were almost 30 when the acts took place, and the girl 12/13.

Her parents should also be investigated and, as appears appropriate, charged.

brianthebard wrote: »

Additionally, people here need to realise that the statutory rape rule is equally applicable to a 16 year old and her boyfriend who's a month older than her as it is to this chap. Is that really the sort of absolutist, no consideration of the facts sort of legal system we want to continue to use?

There's a huge difference between a 16 and 17 year old and what happened in this case.

brianthebard · 06-07-2010 02:18PM

prinz wrote: »

There's a huge difference between a 16 and 17 year old and what happened in this case.

Perhaps, but they are both statutory rape which is the point I was making. I'm not saying the guy should be let go scot free either, but its obviously a more complicated case than most here seem to think. The place these things happen does not substantially change the situation imo.

prinz · 06-07-2010 02:39PM

brianthebard wrote: »

The place these things happen does not substantially change the situation imo.

Well it does affect the standing of the accused IMO.

For instance Case 1, man goes into niteclub has ID checked at door etc, meets girl in there takes her back to his place they have sex he gets charged. In that instance if he claims he truly believed she was over 18, due to the fact that he assumed the bouncers would have checked her ID etc too, to me he'd have more of a leg to stand on, than someone who meets a girl on the street and takes her home.

brianthebard · 06-07-2010 03:03PM

prinz wrote: »

Well it does affect the standing of the accused IMO.

For instance Case 1, man goes into niteclub has ID checked at door etc, meets girl in there takes her back to his place they have sex he gets charged. In that instance if he claims he truly believed she was over 18, due to the fact that he assumed the bouncers would have checked her ID etc too, to me he'd have more of a leg to stand on, than someone who meets a girl on the street and takes her home.

Maybe to you but not to the courts.

prinz · 06-07-2010 03:04PM

brianthebard wrote: »

Maybe to you but not to the courts.

Statutory is statutory but the circumstances can affect the sentence after all, so yes potentially even to the courts.

K-9 · 06-07-2010 05:07PM

prinz wrote: »

This would be alright if it was an isolated incident. It wasn't, it was part of months of incidents. It would also be a bit of a grey area if the context was a girl in a pub or a niteclub etc and a one night stand, it wasn't, this girl was repeatedly sexually assaulted by some of these 'men' on the grounds of a primary school, amongst others. There are other men serving prison sentences for offences involving this girl. Some of these men were almost 30 when the acts took place, and the girl 12/13.

Her parents should also be investigated and, as appears appropriate, charged.

There's a huge difference between a 16 and 17 year old and what happened in this case.

Indeed, it's a very strange case and there is more too it than that article.

Must be one messed up woman now though.

easyeason3 · 06-07-2010 05:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Not always, I worked in a place before and there was a gorgeous girl working there.. Really really stunning like. So second day, after working with her the day before, one of the lads goes 'what age do ya think she is?'. I say 20-21.. He goes 'yea everyone who sees her says that, she's only 13, workin here illegally'.

Never been so shocked.. She didn't even look tarty nd before I found out, I thought she was better looking than pretty much anyone else I knew at the time. She even acted older.

Definition of jailbait.

Ok I get what your saying.
Personally I find it hard to see how someone who is 13 can look like a 20-21 year old but I'm not doubting it can happen.

At 19 that man should have made a better judgement call.

thebigbiffo · 06-07-2010 05:32PM

easyeason3 wrote: »

At 19 that man should have made a better judgement call.

19? sex invloved? better judgement? these 3 statements do not mix

easyeason3 · 06-07-2010 05:34PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

19? sex invloved? better judgement? these 3 statements do not mix

Well that's a piss poor cop out in my opinion.

OutlawPete · 06-07-2010 05:36PM

easyeason3 wrote: »

At 19 that man should have made a better judgement call.

You expect them to be psychic?

You never addressed my post above.

Would you doubt that this 13 year old girl was not at least 17?

As an example, as there are many like her.

easyeason3 · 06-07-2010 05:43PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

You expect them to be psychic?

You never addressed my post above.

Would you doubt that this 13 year old girl was not at least 17?

Sorry! I'm still in work & trying to look like I'm working but have a sneaky look at boards.

She certainly looks older than 13 so yes I can see how it can be confusing. However she has had her hair done, her make up, she has a dress on that is a bit old for her & I can only presume she is in an adult setting. Anyway given those factors she does look more than 13, but she still looks young.

And no people shouldn't need to rely on their psychic abilities to make a judgement call that can ruin the rest of their lives & follow them around like a bad smell.

Mrmoe · 06-07-2010 05:55PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

You expect them to be psychic?

You never addressed my post above.

Would you doubt that this 13 year old girl was not at least 17?

As an example, as there are many like her.

If you met her at the back of a primary school that should give you plenty of suspicion that she was underage. While the girl you show might look 17 when she is dolled up, it should be reasonably easy by talking to someone to tell their age. No one is saying that mistakes can not be made and perhaps should be taken into account but in this specific case I do not think the guy should have received a suspended sentence. The sentence in this case was too lenient.

There is a big difference between this incident and say the case of two 16 year olds bf/gf having sex.

OutlawPete · 06-07-2010 06:02PM

easyeason3 wrote: »

She certainly looks older than 13 so yes I can see how it can be confusing. However she has had her hair done, her make up, she has a dress on that is a bit old for her & I can only presume she is in an adult setting. Anyway given those factors she does look more than 13, but she still looks young.

Younger than 17 though?

Certain sections of society has almost made sexuality in young people a taboo.

Young girls are supposed to be sexy when they start to go though puberty, as are young boys - that's just nature.

Most people adults realise how precious young people's sexuality is and how we can regret decisions made when young, so we have an age of consent.

However, sometimes young men can be surrounded by young girls and can easily believe that a 13 year is in fact 17.

The fact that the girl also says they are, compounds the issue

Look at Traci Lords, she made a few dozen porn movies and became the the No1 pornstar in America at the time, fooling the public and an entire adult industry that she was of legal age.

easyeason3 wrote: »

And no people shouldn't need to rely on their psychic abilities to make a judgement call ..

So how should they be able to tell then?

When a girl is 13 but looks 18 and over, how are they supposed to know exactly?

Here's Aliana Lohan on the front cover of a magazine, she was 14 at the time.

OutlawPete · 06-07-2010 06:21PM

Mrmoe wrote: »

If you met her at the back of a primary school that should give you plenty of suspicion that she was underage.

Why?

Sounds like these school shelters were a place were many people hung out.

I can show you many other school shelters in Ireland, that at the weekend are full of teens drinking.

The school shelters that I drank in as a kid are still being used today for the same purposes we used them, it has zero to do with this case.

This girl kept a diary of the men she was with and seemed to be actively fooling older boys that she was not underage.

There is one thing in the report that sounded odd though, that he met her on her confirmation day, did he know that it was her confirmation day or what?

Strange that not more emphasis was put on this as that would change things entirely.

Mrmoe wrote: »

While the girl you show might look 17 when she is dolled up..

13 and 14 year olds are dolled up though, that's the point.

Mrmoe wrote: »

No one is saying that mistakes can not be made and perhaps should be taken into account but in this specific case ..

They can't take mistakes in regards to a girls age in ANY case now, that's the point.

It has been removed in law so that it can no longer be used as a defense.

Mrmoe wrote: »

There is a big difference between this incident and say the case of two 16 year olds bf/gf having sex.

If he thought she was over the legal age, then why is there a big difference?

Giselle · 06-07-2010 06:25PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'm saying there are mitigating circumstances, that's all. if those include her being a hussy, looking over the age of 13, being well aware of her actions and basically acting like an adult then so be it, and the judge is right to take that into account.

Obviously this sexually predatory, admittedly previously abused experience, outwardly older-looking child slapper, ensnared these gullible men into acts they'd never consider doing if they knew the truth.

Just WHO is the victim here?!???!:)

FUNKY LOVER · 06-07-2010 06:47PM

the age of consent in spain is 13.so basically cause in ireland the age is 17 so therefore we must percieve it as wrong,yet its right in spain???

K-9 · 06-07-2010 06:49PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Why?

Sounds like these school shelters were a place were many people hung out.

I can show you many other school shelters in Ireland, that at the weekend are full of teens drinking.

The school shelters that I drank in as a kid are still being used today for the same purposes we used them, it has zero to do with this case.

This girl kept a diary of the men she was with and seemed to be actively fooling older boys that she was not underage.

There is one thing in the report that sounded odd though, that he met her on her confirmation day, did he know that it was her confirmation day or what?

Strange that not more emphasis was put on this as that would change things entirely.

13 and 14 year olds are dolled up though, that's the point.

They can't take mistakes in regards to a girls age in ANY case now, that's the point.

It has been removed in law so that it can no longer be used as a defense.

If he thought she was over the legal age, then why is there a big difference?

He doesn't seem to be claiming the "she looked older" defence though, in this case. The confirmation point maybe important. It's a small town and I'd be surprised he wasn't aware she was under age.

Mrmoe · 06-07-2010 07:12PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Why?

Sounds like these school shelters were a place were many people hung out.

I can show you many other school shelters in Ireland, that at the weekend are full of teens drinking.

The school shelters that I drank in as a kid are still being used today for the same purposes we used them, it has zero to do with this case.

This girl kept a diary of the men she was with and seemed to be actively fooling older boys that she was not underage.

There is one thing in the report that sounded odd though, that he met her on her confirmation day, did he know that it was her confirmation day or what?

Strange that not more emphasis was put on this as that would change things entirely.

I am not saying that this alone should act as definitive proof that she is underage. If this was a common place for teenagers to hang out then it would seem logical that some will be underage and some will be old enough to consent. The problem was that this guy ploughed ahead regardless. It would be different if it was situated in a pub or club. You are less likely to have underage people there. They are more likely to be out the back of the school bush drinking.

OutlawPete wrote: »

13 and 14 year olds are dolled up though, that's the point.

It is definitely possible that a 13 year old could look 17 but you should not rely on this alone. Myself I can be mistaken for being a sweet innocent 12 year old but if I hold a conversation with some one I sould like the crotchety old man I feel.

OutlawPete wrote: »

They can't take mistakes in regards to a girls age in ANY case now, that's the point.

It has been removed in law so that it can no longer be used as a defense.

If he thought she was over the legal age, then why is there a big difference?

In the case of two underage people I would be more lenient in sentencing but not in this case as one of them is legally considered an adult. In my view a 16 year old teen should be held less acountable than a 19 year old adult.

Orla K · 06-07-2010 08:33PM

Just wondering where people are getting their info on the case, someone said before that she had sex with 30 men

anything I've read it's been 21/22 men.

And she didn't go around fooling all the guys about her age, one that is I think in jail now knew her age and had sex with her in his bed as his wife was having his second child(and that was just one of the times he had sex with her) He was given 2 years with 15 months suspended.

I think this guy(in the op) should have got off lightly but not as lightly as he did.

(I think this other guy should have gotten alot more than two years too)

law86 · 06-07-2010 09:37PM

This was happening in a community where the girl was known by reputation, several men were sleeping wtih her and at least some of them knew her age, they admitted it to the Gardai. The investigating Garda believed for a while that there was organised abuse going on, such was the relationship between the men.

To all of those arguing that it's hard to tell sometimes, etc, this really doesn't seem to be the case here.

This was an extremely damaged child, with useless f*ckwit parents, who sought attention from older men. Do you really think you'd see it as an opportunity to throw the leg over, even if you thought she was 14, 15, 16, 17...

06-07-2010 09:49PM

I think it's safe to assume that all involved were knackers of the highest order.
Especially the girl. How she was even able to write is the real question..

Giselle · 06-07-2010 09:52PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I think it's safe to assume that all involved were knackers of the highest order.
Especially the girl. How she was even able to write is the real question..

So a kid is brought up by crap parents with no self esteem, no self worth, no value at all, is abused by 20-30 ADULT men, is only twelve years old at the time of the abuse by these MEN, but this child is a bigger knacker?

Jesus, that's rich.

06-07-2010 09:54PM

Giselle wrote: »

So a kid is brought up by crap parents with no self esteem, no self worth, no value at all, is abused by 20-30 ADULT men, is only twelve years old at the time of the abuse by these MEN, but this child is a bigger knacker?

Jesus, that's rich.

She has sex with the guys, writes it all down, then goes to the police.

But I guess you have a point, they are all equally as knackery - none more knackery than the other. The best sentence the judge could have handed out would be a tactical nuclear strike on her entire town.

Just to add, she does indeed have no value. If anything a negative value. Wonder how many sproggs she has now.

sam34 · 06-07-2010 09:55PM

easyeason3 wrote: »

Yeah the someway fishy is that no matter how developed you are or tarted up as a 12 year old you will still look like a child & unless these men were Stevie Wonder I fail to see how they couldn't have known.

not necessarily

without wanting to go down the "young wans today " route, i cannot get over how grown up some young teenagers look nowadays

i met a cousin of my sister-in-law recently, i had no idea of her age but guessed by her looks that she was 20 or 21

sitting at the dinnertable, i was amazed and jealous of her self-confidence and poise, and i was thinking to myself that she was so lucky at 20/21 to have that self-confidence that i still dont have even though im nearly 31.
i nearly fainted when the waitress came round with the wine and the girl said "no thanks, sure i'm only 13" :eek:

without meaning to sound crude, she had a lovely feminine figure, developed breasts etc. she'd easily pass for 21.

having said that, i have a niece who is 21 and she looks about 12, so it works both ways i guess

another suspended sentence

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