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When & How could there be a united Ireland?

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Comments

  • #332
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    owenc wrote: »
    Both of them obviously.

    Bubbles, it is you!


  • #333
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    karma_ wrote: »
    Bubbles, it is you!

    What?


  • #334
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Bebs wrote: »
    I don't see how you can equate an attempt to wrest military control of Dublin from the British army with ramming an airplane full of non-combatants into a building full of non-combatants.

    First off I didnt (initially at least) I questioned the logic of the age old mantra of unquestioning respect for those who willingly kill die for thier beliefs (TM)

    But since youve brought it up : wrest military control of Dublin from the British army do you seriously believe they stood a snowball in hells chance of doing such a thing ?

    It was a suicide mission and they were well aware of it.


  • #335
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    owenc wrote: »
    Both of them obviously.

    I'll have to agree to disagree with you then. I'm no republican but I do recognise the sacrifice that those men made in the pursuit of self determination for their country.

    Perhaps the aim of the game wasn't to roll the British army back. They must've known that they couldn't match the might of the Empire but perhaps they were hoping to inspire their countrymen and women.


  • #336
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Bebs wrote: »
    I'll have to agree to disagree with you then. I'm no republican but I do recognise the sacrifice that those men made in the pursuit of self determination for their country.

    Yes but they killed people, so i will reconise no sacrifice.


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  • #337
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    First off I didnt (initially at least) I questioned the logic of the age old mantra of unquestioning respect for those who willingly kill die for thier beliefs (TM)

    But since youve brought it up : wrest military control of Dublin from the British army do you seriously believe they stood a snowball in hells chance of doing such a thing ?

    It was a suicide mission and if they were well aware of it.
    Prior to the countermanding orders they no doubt believed they would win.

    However blood sacrifice came to the fore no doubt on Easter Sunday, when they arranged to go out with much reduced numbers the following day.

    The fact that the had to courage to persevere despite terrible odds, is part of what makes them heroes.


  • #338
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Yes but they killed people, so i will reconise no sacrifice.
    That, once again, is a very blinkered view.


  • #339
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    owenc wrote: »
    Yes but they killed people, so i will reconise no sacrifice.

    All's fair in love and war.


  • #340
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Prior to the countermanding orders they no doubt believed they would win.

    However blood sacrifice came to the fore no doubt on Easter Sunday, when they arranged to go out with much reduced numbers the following day.

    The fact that the had to courage to persevere despite terrible odds, is part of what makes them heroes.

    They aren't hereos, if they killed one of your family members you wouldn't be calling them hereos now and you know fine well you wouldn't.


  • #341
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    That, once again, is a very blinkered view.

    I SAID EXCEPT PEOPLES views and move on!:mad:


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  • #342
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    owenc wrote: »
    Yes but they killed people, so i will reconise no sacrifice.

    That is what militaries do Bubbles, they kill people. Do you have any issues with the killing of Afghan or Iraqi civilians by the British or American armed forces? Are they evil. What about the men who fought fascism in Spain in the early days, I guess they were evil and the men who killed and died to stop Hitler, evil were they?

    You know what owen, if your not actually a bona fide troll, then I actually feel sorry for you, for everyone from your parents to your education has let you down.


  • #343
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Prior to the countermanding orders they no doubt believed they would win.
    Oh, please. They never had a hope in hell, and they knew it.
    The fact that the had to courage to persevere despite terrible odds, is part of what makes them heroes.
    The fact that they engaged in an act that resulted in Dublin being shelled, and civilians killed, tarnished that heroic image beyond redemption for me, I'm afraid.


  • #344
    lugha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    The fact that the had to courage to persevere despite terrible odds, is part of what makes them heroes.
    So wouldn't that make dissident republicans heroes too? I'm sure that at least some of them are driven by principle, but the odds of them getting anywhere are next to nothing too.


  • #345
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    In fairness to Owen, I thought that Mussolini was trolling but then I always get that impression around SF heads.


  • #346
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    karma_ wrote: »
    That is what militaries do Bubbles, they kill people. Do you have any issues with the killing of Afghan or Iraqi civilians by the British or American armed forces? Are they evil. What about the men who fought fascism in Spain in the early days, I guess they were evil and the men who killed and died to stop Hitler, evil were they?

    You know what owen, if your not actually a bona fide troll, then I actually feel sorry for you, for everyone from your parents to your education has let you down.

    Aw is this because i don't agree with your republican ideas, how about all the unionists terrorise you and and millionuse how would yous like that!


  • #347
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    No more accusations of trolling. Read the charter, people - and stop getting personal.


  • #348
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh, please. They never had a hope in hell, and they knew it. The fact that they engaged in an act that resulted in Dublin being shelled, and civilians killed, tarnished that heroic image beyond redemption for me, I'm afraid.
    I disagree. If the Aud had not been captured and the thousands of rifles and machine guns lost to the oceans depths, I believe they had a good chance. A country wide rebellion was planned remember. That loss relegated it to a Dublin affair.


  • #349
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh, please. They never had a hope in hell, and they knew it. The fact that they engaged in an act that resulted in Dublin being shelled, and civilians killed, tarnished that heroic image beyond redemption for me, I'm afraid.

    With that sort of logic the Palestinians should be admonished for provoking the Israelis into killing civilians. Silly Palestinians, they've only themselves to blame.


  • #350
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Aw is this because i don't agree with your republican ideas, how about all the unionists terrorise you and and millionuse how would yous like that!

    Hmmmmm

    That never happened against nationalists before surely?


  • #351
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    owenc wrote: »
    Aw is this because i don't agree with your republican ideas, how about all the unionists terrorise you and and millionuse how would yous like that!

    I'm not even a Republican.

    I have an interest in history sure, but I'm actually more of a Socialist than anything else.


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  • #352
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Bebs wrote: »
    With that sort of logic the Palestinians should be admonished for provoking the Israelis into killing civilians.
    The ones that fire rockets into Israel should, indeed, be so admonished.


  • #353
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Bebs wrote: »
    Silly Palestinians, they've only themselves to blame.

    I don't see how you can equate ....Oh nevermind


  • #354
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Hmmmmm

    That never happened against nationalists before surely?

    No, not that i remember of its always you and karma nagging people if they disagree with you.


  • #355
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    I don't see how you can equate ....Oh nevermind

    The implication is that the Rebels who occupied the GPO are to blame for the shelling and not the folk who fired the shells, which is one way of looking at it for sure.


  • #356
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    I just wonder if NI was made to pay for itself through severe cutbacks and punitive taxes imposed from the British govt, would the Unionists still embrace the Union?
    (analogy is the Americans of British descent who rose against the British govt in the late 1700's where severe taxation was the spark that lit the fuse!)


  • #357
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    gurramok wrote: »
    I just wonder if NI was made to pay for itself through severe cutbacks and punitive taxes imposed from the British govt, would the Unionists still embrace the Union?
    (analogy is the Americans of British descent who rose against the British govt in the late 1700's where severe taxation was the spark that lit the fuse!)

    Now, i think you should know by now that unionists (especially them loyalists) will never want a united ireland and nothing will change that.


  • #358
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    karma_ wrote: »
    The implication is that the Rebels who occupied the GPO are to blame for the shelling and not the folk who fired the shells, which is one way of looking at it for sure.

    When one takes cover in a civilian area while playing soldiers the outcome is usually pretty bad for all parties
    gurramok wrote: »
    I just wonder if NI was made to pay for itself through severe cutbacks and punitive taxes imposed from the British govt, would the Unionists still embrace the Union?

    Is this an supposed to be an argument for or against a United Ireland ?


  • #359
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The ones that fire rockets into Israel should, indeed, be so admonished.


    What about those throwing stones? Cause and effect and all that good stuff.


  • #360
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    owenc wrote: »
    Now, i think you should know by now that unionists (especially them loyalists) will never want a united ireland and nothing will change that.

    Nothing, you sure? Would you will be willing to pay high taxes to maintain the Union?
    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    When one takes cover in a civilian area while playing soldiers the outcome is usually pretty bad for all parties

    Damn Allies invading French towns and causing all that destruction and civilian deaths to free the French.

    Damn British invading Iraq and 'freeing' Basra, a few civilian deaths didn't matter. :rolleyes:


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  • #361
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    You're going to break a few eggs making an omelette.


This discussion has been closed.
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