Who's Emigrating?

danbohan · 04-07-2010 09:46PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nice bit of social darwinism, eh? The weak get winnowed out and the strong continue on? Whats your stance on eugenics?

I hate to break it to you but the young people, the ones who are leaving, are usually the ones with the skills the country needs to restore itself and create a better economy and society. Their leaving sets us back by decades, at least it will if it reaches significant numbers. Its not the strong who remain, but the entrenched wealthy and connected, who rarely have anyone's wellbeing in mind but their own.

These people sold off the future of the nation for the illusion that garden sheds could cost half a million.

Lest we forget, it was the current Minister for Finance's father who memorably said "we can't all live on this little island", a sentiment for which he should have been run out of politics.

Its only the circle of life as long as bald incompetence from the politicians is tolerated and accepted, as it has been for the last ten years. The reasons for this apathy are quite simply that the shower in power are borrowing as quickly and as heavily as possible to cover their bills, and praying that they can keep doing so until the next election. Once the tax bill rises and wages drop you will see the real consequences of their decisions; until then the somnolent public will continue pretending it doesn't matter.

They're pretending that speculation is investment, borrowing is income, and money-multiplication through circular lending is economic growth.

not alone should brian lenighan senior been run out of politics he and his entire family should been banished to some island off the west coast , but no their still here presiding over the runation of this country . i really dont know when irish people will say ''enough'' , electing the other shower of fine gael/labour wont change a thing , we are heading towards a period more turbulent than anything witnessed before , i really feel very sorry for the young people here tied to this country with family ,mortgages etc they will be the sacrificial lambs in all of this .

Lu Tze · 04-07-2010 09:56PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but the young people, the ones who are leaving, are usually the ones with the skills the country needs to restore itself and create a better economy and society. Their leaving sets us back by decades, at least it will if it reaches significant numbers. Its not the strong who remain, but the entrenched wealthy and connected, who rarely have anyone's wellbeing in mind but their own.

In fairness, for the most part they are not leaving by choice, they haven't employment in this country, and there doesn't seem to be any opportunities on the horizon.

I am leaving by choice. Stifling atmosphere in the office, morale ridiculously low (we have been cut from 40 staff to 10) and although it looks like there is an upturn coming (for us anyway) i just cant continue on without a break, want to move my career in a different direction. When i come back (in a year hopefully) other sectors will have started to pick up, and any experience i get abroad might help me into them. So it isn't abandonment, but a lot of people going abroad are planning to up/re skill, and will have something new/different to offer when they return.

schween · 04-07-2010 10:28PM

Biggins wrote: »

Figures of 70,000 (Irish Times) and 70,000 (Indo) have been quoted even as late as yesterday as having left the country in the last year.

With the likes of Eircom dropping hundreds/thousands of jobs soon, I can't see the tide turning soon to be honest.

Biggins wrote: »

If that 70,00 that have left, decided to say - christ thats a further drain on finance resources and would massively bump up the current unemployment figures to more accurate terms!

Side note: it appears that weekly we have 3,500 welfare tourists exposed (as to their fraud) due to the ash cloud fiasco. See here.

You have to take into account that while 65,000 left Ireland in 2009, 57,000 people came into the country so overall net migration was -7,800 for 2009. 30,000 of the 65,000 emigrants were from the 12 EU accession states of 2004 and 2007.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/population/current/popmig.pdf

The emigration figure is still very high though. I wonder what the figures are like for 2010 so far?

danbohan · 04-07-2010 10:36PM

schween wrote: »

You have to take into account that while 65,000 left Ireland in 2009, 57,000 people came into the country so overall net migration was -7,800 for 2009. 30,000 of the 65,000 emigrants were from the 12 EU accession states of 2004 and 2007.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/population/current/popmig.pdf

The emigration figure is still very high though. I wonder what the figures are like for 2010 so far?

i for one would take those cso figures with a pinch of salt , remember in the 80s/90s the goverment were in total denial of the emigration levels i am sure it will be same this time , mind you not many were coming in then

SugarHigh · 04-07-2010 10:39PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

In order to save the Irish economy, the best and brightest of us have to leave these shores every generation.

This is to allow the thickos left behind to keep going to mass and voting Fianna Fail without fear of persecution.

I'm gone by the end of the year. Canada or maybe the UK.

Who else is going?

Are you one of these people who failed their business degree and then moved to Australia to pick fruit and get pissed but still likes to claim to be part of "the brain drain".

Odats · 04-07-2010 10:45PM

Due to qualify as a chartered accountant next Friday touch wood and am seriously considering moving abroad at this stage as the opportunities in my profession are non existent unless you trained in a specific area or are prepared to work for free or buttons.

x in the city · 04-07-2010 10:47PM

If and when I get my masters later in the year I will leg it for sure, mainland europe, germany or such.

better jobs and better wimmins

win win situation

AARRRRGH · 04-07-2010 10:50PM

danbohan wrote: »

ok its a cycle and happens again and again , why ?

Its complicated and cant be explained in a few sentences.
Go read some economics books and find out.

:rolleyes:

Amhran Nua · 04-07-2010 10:52PM

Lu Tze wrote: »

In fairness, for the most part they are not leaving by choice, they haven't employment in this country, and there doesn't seem to be any opportunities on the horizon.

Nobody in their right mind would blame emigrants for leaving; when even the government is against you, its hard to justify staying. With that said, being forced away from your family and friends, your home, is a hard thing. Let no one be under any illusions, this isn't gap year travel or a holiday in Australia.

Amhran Nua · 04-07-2010 10:56PM

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Its complicated and cant be explained in a few sentences.
Go read some economics books and find out.

:rolleyes:

Its not complicated at all, its pretty straightforward. The conclusions of the Honohan and Regling/Watson reports were that we went through a straightforward property bubble, egged on by the the lads in FF. It would be quite convenient for you if there were some esoteric economic reasons for it, but there aren't. Its really, really simple.

You have some neck on you to continue posting in the thread after your last comment, I have to say.

razorblunt · 04-07-2010 10:57PM

I'm gone almost a year now, loving it here, will come back someday but not tomorrow

danbohan · 04-07-2010 11:01PM

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Its complicated and cant be explained in a few sentences.
Go read some economics books and find out.

:rolleyes:

perhaps your spending too much time in economic books and not enough time in real world !

Cute Tour · 04-07-2010 11:07PM

Came back from Canada a couple of months ago and I was hoping to get work here because I really dont want to have to go again but there is no hope of getting work here and its just sucking the life out of me.

I think il try and get work in the UK because I would prefer to be close to home, is there any where else in Europe where there is plenty of work?

AARRRRGH · 04-07-2010 11:07PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nice bit of social darwinism, eh? The weak get winnowed out and the strong continue on? Whats your stance on eugenics?

I hate to break it to you but the young people, the ones who are leaving, are usually the ones with the skills the country needs to restore itself and create a better economy and society. Their leaving sets us back by decades, at least it will if it reaches significant numbers. Its not the strong who remain, but the entrenched wealthy and connected, who rarely have anyone's wellbeing in mind but their own.

These people sold off the future of the nation for the illusion that garden sheds could cost half a million.

Lest we forget, it was the current Minister for Finance's father who memorably said "we can't all live on this little island", a sentiment for which he should have been run out of politics.

Its only the circle of life as long as bald incompetence from the politicians is tolerated and accepted, as it has been for the last ten years. The reasons for this apathy are quite simply that the shower in power are borrowing as quickly and as heavily as possible to cover their bills, and praying that they can keep doing so until the next election. Once the tax bill rises and wages drop you will see the real consequences of their decisions; until then the somnolent public will continue pretending it doesn't matter.

They're pretending that speculation is investment, borrowing is income, and money-multiplication through circular lending is economic growth.

And people like yourself will continue to think that your leaving Ireland is actually going to cripple Ireland. A lot of you will be back. A lot wont.
Some will bring something good with them and some will just be a drain on this country in the future.

All this talk about leaving and "God help Ireland if I leave". Smacks of self importance. If you are going to leave stop talking about it and leave. Do something constructive instead of rabbiting on about it.

The fact is that most people who keep talking about leaving are the wasters. The ones who have left already have actually done something for themselves.

I have much more respect for those who have left than those talking about it non-stop, but never doing anything. I was part of the great 80s exodus myself. We didnt get to talk about it. We had to leave. Its not as hard as you think to emigrate and if and when you come back in 10 or 15 years you will see a different country. Maybe better, maybe worse, but it wont have changed because you left.

Ireland wont miss you as you have nothing to offer it at the moment. If you did you wouldnt have to leave. Because you would have the skills to find yourself a place here. You are no loss right now, so dont get on your high horse. But in future you might come back with something to offer. Thats when you can make a difference - if you have made use of your time abroad.

AARRRRGH · 04-07-2010 11:08PM

danbohan wrote: »

perhaps your spending too much time in economic books and not enough time in real world !

No, ive spent time in both. Obviously some people havent.

RATM · 04-07-2010 11:08PM

ICE HOUSE wrote: »

Just came back 2 years ago after nearly 10 years away and I still havent found a job here. Some things never change eh ?
Im getting on now a bit in age but I have been doing a lot of thinking lately and it looks like im going to have to leave again. Sick of the whole f**in thing.
Emmigrating is a young mans game and im dreadin the toughts of this s**t all over again.

Im in the same boat, I came home in 2003 to pursue a degree in the hope of getting a job when completed. Im just finishing my Masters now and to date the taxpayer, through grants and tuition fees, has stumped up nearly E60,000 for my education. But the only jobs that are available to me are graduate ones, and there is very few of them atm. To make things into a double whammy now the govt. introduces the WEP1 scheme whereby graduates are expected to work for free for 9 months. Well the last time I checked the supermarkets weren't handing out free food so Im fcuked if Im working for nothing.

I don't want to emigrate as Ive already done the whole Oz/NZ thing and as Im now in my 30's I want to settle down in Ireland. However it looks like my hand may be forced as Im not willing to sit around on the scratcher forever

Sulmac · 04-07-2010 11:10PM

Just finished first year of university so it's not quite on the agenda yet. I'd hate to have to leave, but if the country doesn't get it's act together (and votes FF back in come the next election

) and jobs are still impossible to come by in a few years I may have no other realistic option.

I'm hoping to do a year abroad, most likely in the Netherlands, so I would love to learn Dutch while there and would consider it as the first place I'd emigrate to - before any "Anglophonic" country.

dreababyluxe · 04-07-2010 11:13PM

I'm planning to move over to the UK soon too to look for work in fashion retail, and hopefully to study from September on. I've lost all hope for Ireland and I am looking for a change.

Amhran Nua · 04-07-2010 11:14PM

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Ireland wont miss you as you have nothing to offer it at the moment.

We're going to haul your nose from the trough and stick it in what you left behind you. You can take that to the bank and leverage it. The failures of those elected representatives will not be shifted onto the shoulders of the young people of Ireland, who are blameless for this shambles. Many countries have gone through booms, and many have used the profits from that time to create sustainable employment and industries - instead our government did overtime to recreate the useless property boom and put us all deeper in debt.

djk1000 · 04-07-2010 11:16PM

I'm off to Canada next year, started saving and planning recently.

I'm sick tired and so angry about paying extra taxes and charges at every turn, just to bail out the ***** that caused the mess, the same ***** that are sitting pretty through this recession.

I refuse to sit quietly and be shafted for something that I didn't play any part in causing. I might be back after the mess is sorted out, but until then, I'd rather work minimum wage in another country than stay here and watch 55% of what I earn go in taxes.

As I type, that airhead tanaiste Coughlan is on RTE defending the indefensible once again. I hope she and her cronies burn in hell for what they did. Despite what has gone on in Irish politics in the last few years, the puppy farm bill has come closer to bringing down the government than anything else, what a sad indictment of the ruling class.

YourName · 04-07-2010 11:34PM

God I hate this type of talk, if people got off their high horses and went out and stopped looking for the high class jobs in society, that pay well and supplement your college degree, and actually looked at working to pay the bills, and feeding themselves with a view to making their way back up the ladder, or maybe later finding a job in their desired field when that sector picks back up, then we wouldn't have this emigration talk.

See, in my opinion, I think big companies are going bust, and the people coming out of these companies are looking for a new job in and around the same pay scale, at the same level as previously worked, however we are in a recession as everyone is constantly reminding themselves, so maybe you need to stop applying for those jobs where you think you deserve to be, and start looking for jobs at the bottom again because in this climate you ain't worth what you were in the previous economy. Some day that degree will lead to a job, maybe not now, but someday it will, so get a dead end job for now, with a view to the bigger job in the future.

So my advice to people is, don't go on the scratcher, get a dead end job on the lowest pay scale, and live to get by, it will pay off someday, don't emigrate as there are jobs here for people who are man enough to accept a lower job than what they think they deserve.

Before all the attackers come and eat me up with their stories of hardship and recession blues, I have a reason for saying all this. I am too in college and I am working to make ends meet in a badly paid job with the worlds worst hours, I don't plan on getting a job when I finish my degree as there are none out there, however I do someday, I am always searching for a better job, but I am't complaining, signing on, or emigrating as I can make ends meet on my pay cheque. But the main reason for doing this long post is to vent my anger, as we have a position in my job going, and I have been asked to get somebody reliable to do the job, that was two weeks ago and everyday I have to embarrassingly go to work and say I can't get anyone, I have asked tonnes of people, and nobody wants to work in my job, nobody ! ! ! and then I hear of people emigrating and signing on, get a grip people, I can't get anyone for this job that I can trust to stay at it, all because in my opinion, people are stuck up there on their high horses.

I'll get my coat/

El Siglo · 04-07-2010 11:38PM

If I hear one more "we had to do emigrate in the 80s/50s" etc... I think I'm going to scream. The difference between then and now is that, we had an economy, we had a budget surplus, we had the population, the investment etc... we had the foundations for a well run economy and it was pissed away.
Denmark, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands etc... these are all small countries and have some of the best economies in Europe. You don't see the same unemployment, the same corrupt governments, these are well run countries, all are small, low in natural resources and yet have do you see these places go to the wall as hard as us?
No, this is why most people are pissed off, we could have had a country like Denmark, high in human capital, tremendous infrastructure and a centre of renewable energy technologies. Instead we've go the current shit sandwich. So people can hark on about the 80s all they like, but I'll be fucking aul lad before I see the levels of employment and FDI that characterised the mid to late 90s.

Amhran Nua · 04-07-2010 11:41PM

El Siglo wrote: »

No, this is why most people are pissed off, we could have had a country like Denmark, high in human capital, tremendous infrastructure and a centre of renewable energy technologies.

Well said sir.

citytillidie · 04-07-2010 11:45PM

I am off to Canada in 2 weeks

Lu Tze · 04-07-2010 11:46PM

YourName wrote: »

I am too in college and I am working to make ends meet in a badly paid job with the worlds worst hours, I don't plan on getting a job when I finish my degree as there are none out there, however I do someday, I am always searching for a better job, but I am't complaining, signing on, or emigrating as I can make ends meet on my pay cheque.

I have no idea what you are studying, but if it is anyway technical and you spend 2-3 years outside that industry doing a cleaning job or what ever after you graduate, commendable and all as that would be, in many cases you will be untouchable to an employer. I personally would choose a fresh graduate (whose education is still fresh) or somebody who went and got experience abroad.

That said - i don't know if it would be so pressing outside of the technical ones, sciences, engineering and IT.

El Siglo · 04-07-2010 11:48PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Well said sir.

Thank you!:D

YourName · 04-07-2010 11:56PM

Lu Tze wrote: »

I have no idea what you are studying, but if it is anyway technical and you spend 2-3 years outside that industry doing a cleaning job or what ever after you graduate, commendable and all as that would be, in many cases you will be untouchable to an employer. I personally would choose a fresh graduate (whose education is still fresh) or somebody who went and got experience abroad.

That said - i don't know if it would be so pressing outside of the technical ones, sciences, engineering and IT.

Incorrect, an employer would much rather if they picked up a worker in 2 years who had worked to pay the bills and on the side, did unpaid work, studied further, and developed their skills. A fresh graduate has nothing on somebody with the same degree along with 2-3 years unpaid experience, as the economy caused it to be unpaid, along with the added fact that you have shown an eagerness to work and not take the easy route and join the scratcher or emigrate.

Also I love your interpretation of a crappy job, a cleaner. Our grandparents had a word for jobs like cleaners, that was opportunity. I don't know who said that, wasn't me, I think it was my old woodwork teacher !!!

YourName · 04-07-2010 11:57PM

citytillidie wrote: »

I am off to Canada in 2 weeks

Enjoy your holiday ! ! !

citytillidie · 05-07-2010 12:08AM

YourName wrote: »

Enjoy your holiday ! ! !

Holiday is California 1st then Canada for a year with USIT

Lu Tze · 05-07-2010 12:10AM

YourName wrote: »

Incorrect, an employer would much rather if they picked up a worker in 2 years who had worked to pay the bills and on the side, did unpaid work, studied further, and developed their skills. A fresh graduate has nothing on somebody with the same degree along with 2-3 years unpaid experience, as the economy caused it to be unpaid, along with the added fact that you have shown an eagerness to work and not take the easy route and join the scratcher or emigrate.

Also I love your interpretation of a crappy job, a cleaner. Our grandparents had a word for jobs like cleaners, that was opportunity. I don't know who said that, wasn't me, I think it was my old woodwork teacher !!!

I have seen it happen, friend of mine, qualified engineer, has only gotten 6 months experience in the 4 years since qualifying. His degree is now worthless, working in a factory and what not is not something that will stand to him trying to get back into the industry. He is abroad now, untouchable there as well, trying to get in as a draughtsman, and hope to work his way up from there.

You're proposing that somebody with the degree who has worked as something else for 2-3 years and picked up that valued "life experience" would be chosen over someone who went abroad and actually worked in their chosen field?

The graduate comment stands by the way. But again that might just be with engineering. Might not affect the typical politics and humanities graduates

I never said it was a crappy job, i was giving an example of what a graduate might end up doing, which would be of no benefit to them on their CV, other than they have been able to hold down a job. Worked as a butcher myself for six summers during school/college. I come from a farm, its not like i am middle class and sneering at such a job.

Who's Emigrating?

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