The Live In Running World Cup Thread for After Hours.

javaboy · 02-07-2010 11:02PM

dolliemix wrote: »

Premeditated v Impulsive actions

Yeah that's the only difference I can see myself. Can defend Suarez maybe but not Henry on that grounds. His wasn't instinct/impulse alone.

I know I'm being naive but if these acts are impulsive, then the follow up denials as in Henry and Maradona's cases surely put it into the realm of cheating.

redout · 02-07-2010 11:03PM

Paris Hilton arrested at World cup for Marijuana possession!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Paris-Hilton-Arrested-For-Possession-Of-Cannabis-At-World-Cup-In-South-Africa/Article/201007115658634?f=vg

starbelgrade · 02-07-2010 11:04PM

dolliemix wrote: »

Premeditated v Impulsive actions

No - you can premeditate a handball, or a bad tackle. Neither however are cheating, though they are punishable offences.

Cookie_Monster · 02-07-2010 11:04PM

redout wrote: »

Paris Hilton arrested at World cup for Marijuana possession!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Paris-Hilton-Arrested-For-Possession-Of-Cannabis-At-World-Cup-In-South-Africa/Article/201007115658634?f=vg

horray, hopefully they lock her away for ever!

flanno_7hi · 02-07-2010 11:06PM

Suarez got caught and henry didnt. There was no comeback for henry. Suazez handled on the line took one for the team and got sent off like i'd expect every player to do for his team. If he was thinking he knew he woud get sent off. Technically cheating but he was caught not the same as henry. Ghana were given the peno just a bad buzz he missed.

javaboy · 02-07-2010 11:06PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Taking performance enhancing drugs clearly is cheating as it's something that is not governed by the rules of the FIFA handbook, which are administered by the referee & his assistants. Anything beyond the rulebook is governed by the sports body itself.

In simple terms, what happens on the pitch is all part of the game. If a player takes down an attacking player in the box, giving away a penalty, no-one calls him a cheat. Yet he has broken the rules of the game. There is no difference between breaking the rules by fouling a player, than a deliberate handling of the ball.

The only difference is, that one is called a foul, whilst the other is called unsporting behaviour.

In most cases a penalty will mean a goal but let's say there's a professional foul outside the box after a quick counter attack. Player gets a red card. Opposition get a free kick which typically won't lead to a goal.
In that case I would say the player manipulated the system knowing full well that the maximum punishment he and his team will receive will still be better than conceding.

For me that's cheating. The rest is semantics.

starbelgrade · 02-07-2010 11:07PM

redout wrote: »

Paris Hilton arrested at World cup for Marijuana possession!

Now there's someone who knows a lot about handling balls.

starbelgrade · 02-07-2010 11:16PM

javaboy wrote: »

In most cases a penalty will mean a goal but let's say there's a professional foul outside the box after a quick counter attack. Player gets a red card. Opposition get a free kick which typically won't lead to a goal.
In that case I would say the player manipulated the system knowing full well that the maximum punishment he and his team will receive will still be better than conceding.

For me that's cheating. The rest is semantics.

Semantics don't come into it. The rules are there in black & white and there is only one way to interpret them. If a foul is commited, be it inside or outside the box, the ref has to give the correct decision & caution. If he doesn't, he's not applying the rules correctly.

In his application of the rules, he will refer to his knowledge of the rulebook, and not a dictionary or his own interpretation of what the words in the rulebook mean.

"Cheating" is a term which people watching the game often use, but it has no place in the game, on the pitch, or in the rules by which the game is governed.

It is simply an emotional reaction to a footballing action.

javaboy · 02-07-2010 11:20PM

Not an emotional reaction in my case. I just don't think the fact that there is a team of officials there to enforce the rules excuses players who break them. A lot of fouls are accidental, mistimed or impulsive. Others are deliberate. Since when did deliberately breaking rules in a sport or game stop being cheating?

dolliemix · 02-07-2010 11:25PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

caught, owned up and punished vs denied it and got away with it

No not at all what I meant

javaboy wrote: »

Yeah that's the only difference I can see myself. Can defend Suarez maybe but not Henry on that grounds. His wasn't instinct/impulse alone.

I know I'm being naive but if these acts are impulsive, then the follow up denials as in Henry and Maradona's cases surely put it into the realm of cheating.

Henry didn't deny what he had done

javaboy · 02-07-2010 11:29PM

dolliemix wrote: »

Henry didn't deny what he had done

He did. Implicitly at first. Then explicitly afterwards in conversation with players depending on who you believe. Luciano was just as bad. Two handballs, one absolutely deliberate. Denied to the referee immediately afterwards. Cheating plain and simple. Same goes for diving.

starbelgrade · 02-07-2010 11:42PM

javaboy wrote: »

Not an emotional reaction in my case. I just don't think the fact that there is a team of officials there to enforce the rules excuses players who break them. A lot of fouls are accidental, mistimed or impulsive. Others are deliberate. Since when did deliberately breaking rules in a sport or game stop being cheating?

A deliberate foul or handball may not be the sporting, moral, or ethical choice, and definitely a cynical choice, but if you operate within the rules of a game, you are not cheating, whether you break the rules or not, or whether you do so accidentally or deliberately.

javaboy · 02-07-2010 11:44PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

A deliberate foul or handball may not be the sporting, moral, or ethical choice, and definitely a cynical choice, but if you operate within the rules of a game, you are not cheating, whether you break the rules or not, or whether you do so accidentally or deliberately.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In my book, deliberately breaking the rules=cheating.

starbelgrade · 02-07-2010 11:48PM

javaboy wrote: »

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In my book, deliberately breaking the rules=cheating.

And in the FIFA Rules of the Game, breaking the rules = foul / unsporting behaviour.

That's where our difference in opinion lies. I judge the actions of the game by it's own rulebook, whilst you judge it by your own book.

PeterIanStaker · 02-07-2010 11:48PM

redout wrote: »

Paris Hilton arrested at World cup for Marijuana possession!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Paris-Hilton-Arrested-For-Possession-Of-Cannabis-At-World-Cup-In-South-Africa/Article/201007115658634?f=vg

Excellent I hope she gets put in this jail in Cape Town they showed in Ross Kemp on Gangs. They'd love her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27xtHbgXcU

tolosenc · 02-07-2010 11:49PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

The only difference is, that one is called a foul, whilst the other is called unsporting behaviour.

Define the difference, in the context of sport, between cheating and unsporting behaviour, please.

Abrasax · 02-07-2010 11:52PM

javaboy wrote: »

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In my book, deliberately breaking the rules=cheating.

Cheating is acting fraudulently, trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes.

Diving would be cheating. What your man did is against the rules of course but it was blatant, not an attempt to cheat.

Henry engaged in sleight of hand, out of sight of the officials. That's cheating.

This guy, however, handled in the refs eyeline. He knew he'd be sent off. No subterfuge.
Different story.

dolliemix · 02-07-2010 11:54PM

javaboy wrote: »

He did. Implicitly at first. Then explicitly afterwards in conversation with players depending on who you believe. Luciano was just as bad. Two handballs, one absolutely deliberate. Denied to the referee immediately afterwards. Cheating plain and simple. Same goes for diving.

Fair enough. I was thinking after the game.

starbelgrade · 03-07-2010 12:14AM

tolosenc wrote: »

Define the difference, in the context of sport, between cheating and unsporting behaviour, please.

I won't. I don't know a lot about most sports to do so & in the context of football, cheating does not exist on the field of play.

Unsporting behaviour however, in football, is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the laws of the game.

bonerm · 03-07-2010 01:05AM

Well done to Suarez. He made a choice, gambled and left the casino a winner.

javaboy · 03-07-2010 01:15AM

bonerm wrote: »

Well done to Suarez. He made a choice, gambled and left the casino a winner.

A victory for cynicism over sportsmanship.

frantic190 · 03-07-2010 01:22AM

Was a great save all the same...

K-9 · 03-07-2010 01:26AM

frantic190 wrote: »

Was a great save all the same...

True, terrible miss by the other lad. Thank God Suarez was there.

Seems to be a whole storm in a tea cup over this from reading this thread and the Soccer one. It's only a big deal because of Henry.

javaboy · 03-07-2010 01:33AM

frantic190 wrote: »

Was a great save all the same...

He could have caught it tbh. Time and time again in this world cup we've seen balls that could be caught being punched or palmed back into the danger zone. Don't know if it's paranoia over the jabulani ball or what but I think this "continental" keeping is becoming the norm and it's costing teams unnecessary corners and even goals.