Religion and tax.

Lando Griffin · 25-06-2010 09:32PM

thetonynator wrote: »

What do they sell that makes a profit?

Graves. They sell graves. Get a mass card signed you pay for it to be signed. Lots more

thetonynator · 25-06-2010 09:33PM

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Nope, but then they operate exclusively as charities.

What about astrologists, faith healers or scientologists?

The churches income is all donations from parishioners, at their discretion. Astrologists, faith healers and scientologists (afaik) charge for their services.

starbelgrade wrote: »

FIFA are also a registered charity. No joke.

Its all sepp blatters fault. Just blame him!

thetonynator · 25-06-2010 09:35PM

Lando Griffin wrote: »

Graves. They sell graves. Get a mass card signed you pay for it to be signed. Lots more

Graves are plots of land, they cant just give land away for free.

Mass cards: Generally at your discretion, with a guideline given.

25-06-2010 09:36PM

Here is an idea: make all religions pay tax and then reduce the tax individuals have to pay.

Religion robs people of their lives by fooling them into believing self-contradictory and ludicrous fairy tales. In the case of the Catholic Church, it also systematically covers up kiddy-fiddling by its "spiritual leaders" and does everything it can to prevent condoms being used to slow the spread of HIV, other STDs and unplanned pregnancy. There is something to be said for seizing all the RCC's Irish assets and giving us all a short tax break.

Giving donations may be technically "voluntary" at mass, but even children get dirty looks if they don't at least get money from their parents to present the illusion of them giving. You are guilted into giving the church money, and that is a very powerful motivator for getting people to do things they'd rather not do.

You can believe what you want to believe, but just because you're a religious fruitcake doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules that are forced upon everyone else.

xOxSinéadxOx · 25-06-2010 09:40PM

I thought this was going to be about the evil tax collecters in the bible and that zachaeus guy who climbed up a tree, I learnt a song about him in primary school

thetonynator · 25-06-2010 09:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here is an idea: make all religions pay tax and then reduce the tax individuals have to pay.

Religion robs people of their lives by fooling them into believing self-contradictory and ludicrous fairy tales. In the case of the Catholic Church, it also systematically covers up kiddy-fiddling by its "spiritual leaders" and does everything it can to prevent condoms being used to slow the spread of HIV, other STDs and unplanned pregnancy.

Giving donations may be technically "voluntary" at mass, but even children get dirty looks if they don't at least get money from their parents to present the illusion of them giving. You are guilted into giving the church money, and that is a very powerful motivator for getting people to do things they'd rather not do.

You can believe what you want to believe, but just because you're a religious fruitcake doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules that are forced upon everyone else.

A) Its choice. You do not have to believe it, attend services etc.

I agree. But what does it have to do with paying tax?

C) No they don't, nobody will even give you a second glance for not contributing.

D) Again, it;s choice whether or not you go to a church service or believe anything said by the church.

E) As pointed out about 5 times already in this thread, if you had bothered to read it, charities and donations to charities are exempt from tax. Therefore these rules are not forced upon everyone else, and you are talking sh!te.

thetonynator · 25-06-2010 09:43PM

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

I thought this was going to be about the evil tax collecters in the bible and that zachaeus guy who climbed up a tree, I learnt a song about him in primary school

I remember that song. And the one about Brendan in his banana boat.

Coriolanus · 25-06-2010 09:47PM

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

I thought this was going to be about the evil tax collecters in the bible and that zachaeus guy who climbed up a tree, I learnt a song about him in primary school

Jesus was a libertarian?

Dyr · 25-06-2010 09:48PM

Are the church bashers particularly angry in here because they're not out with their class mates tonight?

The cattalick church funds arseloads of schools in this country so our govt doesnt have to spend revenue on such frivolous nonsense. They pay their way

thetonynator · 25-06-2010 09:51PM

This is the sort of thread you expect to see on Good Friday cos somebody cant go one night without going out and is at home getting drunk on the 30 cans he bought in the offo the previous day in defiance of the catholic church.

sock puppet · 25-06-2010 09:57PM

thetonynator wrote: »

This is the sort of thread you expect to see on Good Friday cos somebody cant go one night without going out and is at home getting drunk on the 30 cans he bought in the offo the previous day in defiance of the catholic church.

Ha drinking on a Friday night. What will those crazy secularists think of next.

orourkeda · 25-06-2010 09:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here is an idea: make all religions pay tax and then reduce the tax individuals have to pay.

Religion robs people of their lives by fooling them into believing self-contradictory and ludicrous fairy tales. In the case of the Catholic Church, it also systematically covers up kiddy-fiddling by its "spiritual leaders" and does everything it can to prevent condoms being used to slow the spread of HIV, other STDs and unplanned pregnancy. There is something to be said for seizing all the RCC's Irish assets and giving us all a short tax break.

Giving donations may be technically "voluntary" at mass, but even children get dirty looks if they don't at least get money from their parents to present the illusion of them giving. You are guilted into giving the church money, and that is a very powerful motivator for getting people to do things they'd rather not do.

You can believe what you want to believe, but just because you're a religious fruitcake doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules that are forced upon everyone else.

Religion do not rob. They rely on donations dont they. If anyone feels "guilted", as you put it, thats their problem.

Seeing as they only peddle "contradictory and ludicrous fairy tales", can we assume that you have all the answers. Would you like to share them with us and all the irrefutable proof that you are all knowing.

Coriolanus · 25-06-2010 10:02PM

Bambi wrote: »

The cattalick church funds arseloads of schools in this country so our govt doesnt have to spend revenue on such frivolous nonsense. They pay their way

Church demands €2m fees from national schools

The State pays by far the majority of the running costs of the national and secondary schools.

Lando Griffin · 25-06-2010 10:02PM

And what do priests do with their PPS number? Do the religious employees and employers pay PRSI and PAYE etc?

thetonynator · 25-06-2010 10:03PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Ha drinking on a Friday night. What will those crazy secularists think of next.

Well its one friday out of 52. And 1 day out of 365 ( unless you're the kind of sad person who wants to go to a pub on christmas day)

It shouldn't hurt too much!!

thetonynator · 25-06-2010 10:06PM

Lando Griffin wrote: »

And what do priests do with their PPS number? Do the religious employees and employers pay PRSI and PAYE etc?

TH, they earn so little I doubt they would qualify for tax. And they dont even own their house or car. Any income is for food, clothes and the 2 weeks holidays they have each year.

Nevore wrote: »

Church demands €2m fees from national schools

The State pays by far the majority of the running costs of the national and secondary schools.

Link wouldnt work for me, might be my computer.

Coriolanus · 25-06-2010 10:08PM

thetonynator wrote: »

TH, they earn so little I doubt they would qualify for tax. And they dont even own their house or car. Any income is for food, clothes and the 2 weeks holidays they have each year.

Link wouldnt work for me, might be my computer.

Works fine for me? Independent.ie and the text is the article headline so should be able to track it with a search.

sock puppet · 25-06-2010 10:10PM

thetonynator wrote: »

Well its one friday out of 52. And 1 day out of 365 ( unless you're the kind of sad person who wants to go to a pub on christmas day)

It shouldn't hurt too much!!

Why not enforce a similar ban next Friday? It's only two Fridays a year so you couldn't possibly have any objections could you?

orourkeda · 25-06-2010 10:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here is an idea: make all religions pay tax and then reduce the tax individuals have to pay.

Religion robs people of their lives by fooling them into believing self-contradictory and ludicrous fairy tales. In the case of the Catholic Church, it also systematically covers up kiddy-fiddling by its "spiritual leaders" and does everything it can to prevent condoms being used to slow the spread of HIV, other STDs and unplanned pregnancy. There is something to be said for seizing all the RCC's Irish assets and giving us all a short tax break.

Giving donations may be technically "voluntary" at mass, but even children get dirty looks if they don't at least get money from their parents to present the illusion of them giving. You are guilted into giving the church money, and that is a very powerful motivator for getting people to do things they'd rather not do.

You can believe what you want to believe, but just because you're a religious fruitcake doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules that are forced upon everyone else.

If you dont believe in religion why do you want them to pay your tax for you.

partyatmygaff · 25-06-2010 10:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here is an idea: make all religions pay tax and then reduce the tax individuals have to pay.

Religion robs people of their lives by fooling them into believing self-contradictory and ludicrous fairy tales. In the case of the Catholic Church, it also systematically covers up kiddy-fiddling by its "spiritual leaders" and does everything it can to prevent condoms being used to slow the spread of HIV, other STDs and unplanned pregnancy. There is something to be said for seizing all the RCC's Irish assets and giving us all a short tax break.

Giving donations may be technically "voluntary" at mass, but even children get dirty looks if they don't at least get money from their parents to present the illusion of them giving. You are guilted into giving the church money, and that is a very powerful motivator for getting people to do things they'd rather not do.

You can believe what you want to believe, but just because you're a religious fruitcake doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules that are forced upon everyone else.

What an embarassing post.

chughes · 25-06-2010 10:27PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Businesses pay tax, churches are not a business.

I couldn't disagree more. The church was the first business to sell a mass consumer product(no pun intended). Getting people to pay/donate for the hope of eternal salvation is something that's been around for two thousand years.

The hope of eternal salvation is the perfect consumer product because when you are in a position to know if you have got value for money or not, you are not in a position to complain if you didn't.

bleg · 25-06-2010 10:43PM

The germans have this sorted

Germany
Germany levies a church tax, on all persons declaring themselves to be Christians, of roughly 8-9% of the income tax, which is effectively (very much depending on the social and financial situation) typically between 0.2% and 1.5% of the total income. The proceeds are shared amongst Catholic, Lutheran, and other Protestant Churches. In 1933 Hitler had the entry "church tax" added to the official tax card, which meant that the tax could now be deducted by the employer like any of the other taxes.
Some believe that the church taxation system was established or started through the Concordat of 1933 signed between the Holy See and the Third Reich. This is a simple misunderstanding or misrepresentation of §13 of the Appendix (The Supplementary Protocol) of the Concordat (Schlußprotokoll, §13). The article reads: „Es besteht Einverständnis darüber, daß das Recht der Kirche, Steuern zu erheben, gewährleistet bleibt.“, (refer to External Links). In English, this translates to: It is understood that the Church retains the right to levy Church taxes, (refer to External Links). Notice that §13 states that the Church "retains the right" or, in German, "gewährleistet bleibt". The church tax (Kirchensteuer) actually traces its roots back as far as the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss of 1803. Today its legal basis is §140 of the Grundgesetz (the German "constitution") in connection with article 137 of the Weimar constitution.
Church tax (Kirchensteuer) is compulsory in Germany for those confessing members of a particular religious group. It is deducted at the PAYE level. The duty to pay this tax theoretically starts on the day one is christened. Anyone who wants to stop paying it has to declare in writing, at their local court of law (Amtsgericht) or registry office, that they are leaving the Church. They are then crossed off the Church registers and can no longer receive the sacraments. This process is also used by members of "free churches" (e.g. Baptists) to stop paying the church tax, from which the free churches do not benefit, in order to support their own church directly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe#Germany

Fantastic.

partyatmygaff · 25-06-2010 10:44PM

chughes wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. The church was the first business to sell a mass consumer product(no pun intended). Getting people to pay/donate for the hope of eternal salvation is something that's been around for two thousand years.

The hope of eternal salvation is the perfect comsumer product because when you are in a position to know if you have got value for money or not, you are not in a position to complain if you didn't.

And what about those that do not pay or donate? Do they get blacklisted and get refused eternal salvation?

The donations are wholly optional, you do not need to pay a single cent to be a christian. If people want to donate, they may feel free to do so. If not, then it does not matter the slightest.

Opinicus · 25-06-2010 11:19PM

Bambi wrote: »

Are the church bashers particularly angry in here because they're not out with their class mates tonight?

The cattalick church funds arseloads of schools in this country so our govt doesnt have to spend revenue on such frivolous nonsense. They pay their way

Sure what use are the VEC and Dept. of Education anyway?;)

Also, what little any church pays for schools is recouped through "donations" tenfold by allowing them to perpetuate their dogma and "educate" more in their beliefs.

26-06-2010 02:14AM

Sorry if my post seems a little all over the place - I'm exhausted.

orourkeda wrote: »

If you dont believe in religion why do you want them to pay your tax for you.

Nice logical leap there. I know it's difficult for the religious to even begin to comprehend the concept of non-belief, but as I am a patient person, allow me to explain: I don't believe a god exists, I believe religions exist. How hard was that?

Your point would only make sense if I was arguing that religions do not exist, which is clearly absurd.

orourkeda wrote:

Religion do not rob. They rely on donations dont they. If anyone feels "guilted", as you put it, thats their problem.

Seeing as they only peddle "contradictory and ludicrous fairy tales", can we assume that you have all the answers. Would you like to share them with us and all the irrefutable proof that you are all knowing.

People mostly do not choose to become religious; for the most part Irish people are indoctrinated from birth and have no choice. In a minority of cases, people realise that there is no evidence to support religion's claims and they become atheist, but the notion that religious belief (for the most part) is a choice is simply not true. Religion requires faith, not rationality, so the majority of people who are brought up in one faith remain in that faith. I would argue that they take advantage of this via donations, which almost nobody who considers themselves a member of that faith will refuse.

Just like taking advantage of a drunk person is considered a bad thing, taking advantage of someone who doesn't know any better than blind faith I would say is also a bad thing. Now, this is not directly related to taxation, but I feel that society should tax religions because of what I would consider to be a net negative effect on humanity as a whole; exploiting faith is only one reason, but in the case of the RCC, covering up child abuse and discouraging condom use (especially with regards to Africa) also count. Additionally, until the religious can present a good argument against taxation, their institutions should be taxed.

It is merely my opinion that religious texts are ludicrous, but it is fact that certain ones are self-contradictory. However, I am not all-knowing. On the contrary, there is a great deal which I do not know, but I don't want to be responsible for causing this thread to degenerate into a debate on the existence of a god. I will say that the state should not operate on the assumption that a god exists and give religions some kind of undeserved special status.

Now, may I ask, why should religions should be exempt from taxation?

Seloth · 26-06-2010 03:35AM

Churches provide free confort and relief for people through out Ireland.

It would be like trying to charge a free hospital that relies on donations.

Not matter what the opinions on boards are(which can be very one sided) spirituality is still important.

The average priest earns about 15 k a year!!!Thats even one of the arguments for whiy they shouldnt marry as they could not support a family with such low funds.

Honestly to tax a person that has devoted their life to others is just plainn greedy.Honestly your idiotic if you think they are not because of a few rotten apples.

Also I'd like to point out I am pretty much agnostic and far away from being a devote catholic but I still see the role they have.Just because they dont brag about there good works,many being in confidence as well as being a huge confort provider to many

((S'cuse me for spelling and such..tired and blah))

Lando Griffin · 26-06-2010 07:59AM

bleg wrote: »

The germans have this sorted.

But thats a tax on the Church goers and not on the church. Must have taken you ages to type all that

owenc · 26-06-2010 08:36AM

Why do they need all this money, a church is for whorship not money.

up for anything · 26-06-2010 09:27AM

owenc wrote: »

Why do they need all this money, a church is for whorship not money.

Naive. Was that an intentional misspelling?

The Catholic church has always been very good at this. ""Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

up for anything · 26-06-2010 09:45AM

Deleted User wrote: »

People mostly do not choose to become religious; for the most part Irish people are indoctrinated from birth and have no choice. In a minority of cases, people realise that there is no evidence to support religion's claims and they become atheist, but the notion that religious belief (for the most part) is a choice is simply not true. Religion requires faith, not rationality, so the majority of people who are brought up in one faith remain in that faith.

Are you living in the 'Brigadoon' of Ireland?

I don't see many indoctrinated kids these days. My children are so brainwashed that they tell me that they can't believe in Jesus dying and the resurrection but that they definitely believe in Santa Claus. It would be cheaper for me if they believed the other way round.

Religion and tax.

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