Invasive questioning public employer

LegacyUser · 22-06-2010 2:11pm #1

Hi,
Was looking for some feedback and opinions. My significant other was recently successfull in a job application through 'publicjobs.ie'. Part of the contract neccessitated that a medical cert. be completed and signed. Questions include: have you ever suffered mental illness, eating disorders, substance abuse problems etc.
They filled out the form appropriatel only to be sent an email asking for clarification of one of the answers concerning mental illness.
Can they really be expected to explain the abuse they have suffered, the impact it's had and the recovery from it in an email? I find it outraging that such invasive and sensitive questions can be asked, by a state employer, over email!!
Am I unreasonable to think that this should not be allowed?

ggirl · 22-06-2010 3:05pm

I think you are absolutely entitled to be outraged. It is none of their business but we live in a country where mental illness is regarded in an extremely backward way unforunately. I am bi-polar and have experienced similar things. It is a disgrace.

I am passionate about trying to change people's perceptions about it and am very open about my illness but it never fails to amaze me how small minded so many people are. Past employer's have openly said to me they thought I was "normal" til they "found out" and I even worked one place where they were actively meant to be supporting depressed people only to be thrown out onto the street when I was upset one day (my boss caught me crying and refused to give me my handbag/coat/phone, just physically grabbed me and threw me out onto the Street). I was hospitalised a week later for three months and for the following three years I was officially denied pay rises etc on the basis they had been "supportive while you were so ill".

I would personally tell them my health is a personal matter which has been dealt with and bears no impact on my current ability to work (a polite PFO in other words!)

meditraitor · 22-06-2010 3:12pm

This is a sensitive area and as such I doubt you can get any sort reasonable reply here,
Firstly the whole area of mental illness is so vast that unless you were specifics nobody here can judge what is right or wrong, the job being applied for is also important,
What I'm trying to say is I understand your feelings of anger with the percieved intrusion into your partners life but some jobs and some mental illness dont go together....

LegacyUser · 22-06-2010 3:29pm

The 'mental illness' was depression, the result of childhood abuse. They've worked incredibly hard to confront and overcome this. I am fully aware of the sensitivities involved in the matter; thats why I'm amazed someone making represenations on behalf of the doctor, acting in the name of the state, can ask for such additional information over email???
Apart from the legality of the matter I would really question the ethics of the doctor.

ilovebiology · 22-06-2010 3:50pm

It may seem outrageous that they ask you these personal medical questions via email or whatever, but an employer is entitled to know if you suffer from ANY illness's before you commence work, and you have to tell them if you do.

Should a person suffer with depressions for example, they MUST tell the company doctor at the pre employment medical. The employer is entitled to know. Also, in future, should a person's depression be exasorbatted by the stress of the job, harassement or anything like that, you have covered yourself, because you made the employer aware at the start of your employment you suffered from depression, and would therefore make the employer liable.

It would then be up to the employer under their "Duty of care" to ensure a persons mental illness is looked after in a reasonable responsible way

unattendedbag · 22-06-2010 4:07pm

Yes your mental health is a personal matter but it becomes a matter for your employer if it starts to affect your work. I.e if Joe Soap has severe depression and has constant breakdowns on a weekly basis then he might not be suitable for the job he is applying for. Similarly if a new employee is constantly taking time off to attend counselling and clinics and cannot complete a 40 hour week then I think the employer has a right to know before hiring that person so it can be taken into consideration. I believe that even in this day and age, mid recession, that it is still incredibly hard to sack civil servants and those in the public sector, so im not suprised that a public employer really wants to know everything about a potential employee.

LegacyUser · 22-06-2010 5:41pm

Hi OP, I agree it is not right for an employer to want details about mental illness or any details about any aspect of your health. as long as you (or in this case your girlfirend) are able to perform the requirements of the job and meet the hiring criteria then not hiring someone because of a label or diagnosis is discriminatory.

If you've already told them the official diagnosis (depression, PTSD, whatever) then can you get a note from a physician saying something along the lines of Ms X has 'depression' and is under the care of a medial team and is fully compliant with all treatment. Ms. X's helth needs do not impair her ability to do her job on a daily basis. I'm sure doctors would know what wording they use as I imagine they write these notes fairly often.

I have a friend with Crohn's and I doubt any employer would ask her to detail her bowel routine and any difficulties she has to know if she will miss work or lose time in the day due to being ill or in the washroom.

ash xxx · 22-06-2010 6:36pm

Hi OP,

I used to work in an Occupational Health Practice, what your boyfriend filled out is called a Health Declaration form/ Pre Employment Questionnaire.

It is completely legal for companies to ask these questions and unfortunately your partner is obliged to completely truthful.

Companies get prospective employees to fill these out to ensure that they are fit for the position they are applying for. They may also ask your partner to supply a medical cert from his doctor/psychiatrist stating that he is fit for work. It is to ensure that someone they employee isn't likely to need a lot of time off work.

If your partner were to not disclose his condition and later on needed time off from work in relation to this, they would require letters from his own doctor at which time they would find out that the condition was pre-existing and that he lied on the Health-Declaration, which is enough to dismiss him.

I hope this is of some help OP, I myself have had to fill out these and have had queries on a couple of questions, but generally, it will not affect anyones employability.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2010 12:50am

Apoplectic wrote: »

The 'mental illness' was depression, the result of childhood abuse. They've worked incredibly hard to confront and overcome this. I am fully aware of the sensitivities involved in the matter; thats why I'm amazed someone making represenations on behalf of the doctor, acting in the name of the state, can ask for such additional information over email???
Apart from the legality of the matter I would really question the ethics of the doctor.

Well i dont mind saying it here because no one knows who i am but as i posted here before i was the victum of child abuse which affected my late entry to education ect, what i found was in terms of education it helps to be truthfull about your past as they will usually be more understanding of your needs but in employment the whole "legal requirment" is complete bs in no way am i going to let abuse rule my life and if i feel uncomfortable telling an employer that i wont pure and simple.

You have every right to feel angry just because its legal and business practice doesnt make it moral for them to ask, lie in anyway you feel comfortable no victim of abuse should have to declare this. Just tell you oh to answer in anyway he sees fit .

steddyeddy · 23-06-2010 12:53am

ilovebiology wrote: »

It may seem outrageous that they ask you these personal medical questions via email or whatever, but an employer is entitled to know if you suffer from ANY illness's before you commence work, and you have to tell them if you do.

Should a person suffer with depressions for example, they MUST tell the company doctor at the pre employment medical. The employer is entitled to know. Also, in future, should a person's depression be exasorbatted by the stress of the job, harassement or anything like that, you have covered yourself, because you made the employer aware at the start of your employment you suffered from depression, and would therefore make the employer liable.

It would then be up to the employer under their "Duty of care" to ensure a persons mental illness is looked after in a reasonable responsible way

legally yes but morally no so op really your other half can anwser whatever he likes and i would advise anyone too especially regarding the abuse.

sam34 · 23-06-2010 4:59pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

legally yes but morally no so op really your other half can anwser whatever he likes and i would advise anyone too especially regarding the abuse.

morals wont be much good if someone is fired for lying on a pre-employment form

steddyeddy · 23-06-2010 6:09pm

sam34 wrote: »

morals wont be much good if someone is fired for lying on a pre-employment form

ah yes i agree man and im not advocating lying but in my case i found it to be the best solution, i only mentioned it when i saw that the ops oh was a victim of abuse and i have had people thinking i could be a basket case after i told them so in my experience i found lying to work, although i did feel guilt for lying about it!

InReality · 23-06-2010 7:00pm

Lets say your honest on the form....

Do you think the person making the hiring decision will fulfill their obligations and decide who is best for the job on their merits ?
Or will they mark you down for some other reason so you won't get the job ?

~

There is no point in being a trailblazer for mental health rights unless your in the happy position of not needing to get the job at all.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2010 7:07pm

InReality wrote: »

Lets say your honest on the form....

Do you think the person making the hiring decision will fulfill their obligations and decide who is best for the job on their merits ?
Or will they mark you down for some other reason so you won't get the job ?

~

There is no point in being a trailblazer for mental health rights unless your in the happy position of not needing to get the job at all.

exactly op i wouldnt even tel them

sambuka41 · 24-06-2010 7:54pm

Hi OP its sounds like your other half has already said it to them but in future i wouldn't say it. I can get very down at times and it can effect my job,I also see a counselor but have never been diagnosed by any medical professional as being depressed so technically i wouldn't be lying on a medical form;)

Did your other half seek out help themselves or go through their GP?

Employers in this day and age will find an excuse not to hire someone with mental health difficulties, or medical difficulties for that matter. And you cant win with them,i love hearing stories of people who do fight but majority of us are not in a position financially or mentally to go up against the system.

pow wow · 25-06-2010 9:20pm

I never mention it either. There's a history of mental health problems in my family and I have struggled with things myself at times and although I'm all for change and acceptance, not too many other people are. IMO it's not unethical for the doctor to have disclosed this to the employer, that's what they are there for.

However if I were in your partner's position I would politely reply to the email and state I'm willing to discuss the issue with the medical professional who examined me but given the nature of the 'illness' I feel it inappropriate to discuss the intricacies of it with a HR professional. Or, get a letter from my doctor along the lines of that already suggested.

I'm all for honesty as a rule, but I'd struggle to to tell the truth about it myself knowing the reaction I'd get. Friends can be bad enough ("you'll end up crazy like your ma") but an overzealous and potentially ill-informed HR person....I really would struggle.

Good luck to you and your OH in any case.

JKM · 25-06-2010 10:28pm

I agree 100% with pow wow.

I would just like to add that it's totally inapropriate for them to ask you over email for clarification of such a personal matter. They should have sent a 'strictly confidential' letter at the very least. Emails are not a very secure way of transmitting information! If I were your OH I would never under any circumstances commit any personal information to email. Once it's out there in cyberspace it's out there forever.

I'm sure your OH wouldn't mind clarifying whatever they want through a health care professional, or at the very least through a closed, strictly confidential means like a private letter or something.

StillWaters · 25-06-2010 10:49pm

Am I right in thinking this is a standard medical questionnaire, and not an actual medical?

In which case, I would think it is the same for if you had ticked diabetes or any other pre-existing condition "I have sought/am undergoing treatment under Dr Bloggs, and this condition in no way affects my ability to undertake position A. This condition has necessitated me taking x days sick leave from my previous position"

There is certainly no need to go into details of abuse, or underlying causes of the pre-existing medical condition.

Invasive questioning public employer

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