Cycle track right of way

doozerie · 18-06-2010 02:02PM

@tomasrojo, I often pull into traffic too to avoid the pedestrian salmon, as it is often the lesser of two evils of merging with traffic versus a potential confrontation or even a collision with a brass-necked pedestrian(s) at speed. It is a type of scenario that arises very often, and your experience on the footpath with an ignorant cyclist is certainly another example of it.

Essentially you have to make a decision each time whether you are willing to put yourself out to accommodate, or pander to depending on how you look at it, someone else who is clearly doing something they shouldn't be doing. On the one hand that's just life and something that you encounter in one form or another in every area of life, on the other hand I often find myself adopting the attitude that I've had enough of pandering to such people and decide to assert my own rights in the situation in the vague hope that it might even trigger some recognition in the other person that they are in the wrong and maybe they won't be so careless/stupid/obnoxious the next time round. Ironically, I find it very similar to the internal debate that went on in my head when doing my driving test and trying not to fall foul of the "failing to make progress" rule which basically either encourages you to assert your rights on the road, or to drive like an obnoxious dick, depending on how you look at it.

Unfortunately, there is sometimes an extremely fine line between asserting your rights and being seen as aggressive, which makes the decision of how to deal with idiotic behaviour by others a tricky process in many cases.

tomasrojo · 18-06-2010 02:04PM

I don't think that Donnybrook is lethal. It certainly could be better, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's lethal. I only cycle that way occasionally, but I've found it ok. You have to take the lane in some places, it must be said.

In places, it might help to try cycling on the very outside of the cycle lane, with your wheel just inside the rightmost white line. You have to keep an eye behind you for close-passers, but they're easier to spot than sudden door-openers.

If you really find that stretch of road hard to deal with or even just stressful, try changing your route. It's often the best thing to do. Hassle is something we can all do with less of, and even if your route ends up a bit longer, it's just more exercise.

tomasrojo · 18-06-2010 02:07PM

doozerie wrote: »

Unfortunately, there is sometimes an extremely fine line between asserting your rights and being seen as aggressive, which makes the decision of how to deal with idiotic behaviour by others a tricky process in many cases.

True, and it also means that cycling is unattractive to the shy and timid, since asserting your rights in the face of aggression by others really isn't to everyone's taste.

manwithaplan · 18-06-2010 02:32PM

Is it really that bad? I have commuted by bike since the early nineties and found it a cheap, safe, efficient and healthy way of getting around. I don't encounter these daily problems and when I hit the odd snag/do something stupid/meet another road user doing something stupid, I deal with it and continue on my merry way.

I would recommend cycling to anyone. Would you?

Edit: that was a general "would you?" and is not directed at the previous poster.

glic71rods46t0 · 18-06-2010 02:54PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think the discussion of right of way is getting confused with "right of intimidation" or some similar concept. Right of way is to allow road users to co-exist without contention, and to make it easier in court to decide who is at fault in the event of a collison or other contretemps. It isn't a concept designed to allow any road user to drive at or near anyone else in an attempt to teach them a lesson.

In the case of off-road cycle lanes, pedestrians are most definitely not intended to walk on them, whatever about the legality of it. However, sometimes they very little choice, such as when a narrow footpath has been "re-purposed" with a narrow cycle lane added to it; in that case, what are they supposed to do when there are a lot of other pedestrians? Shuffle along slowly in single file, like the workers heading underground in Metropolis?

If you're on an off-road cycle lane and there are a lot of pedestrians adjacent to it, you just have to cycle slowly. There is no other safe way to proceed. Therefore, unless the road is very narrow with fast-moving traffic, it is easier to use the road. Despite what TimAllen Fencer says, no-one is going to deliberately collide with you, though they may shout at you. It's quite easy to ignore such types generally.

There was a suggestion here that pedestrians are deliberately flouting cycle lanes. I really don't think so. I have relatives who don't cycle and I notice that they wander onto cycle lanes all the time when they're out walking. They just aren't aware of them. This has been noticed in other countries as well, though in countries where there are a lot of cyclists, it's usually tourists who are wandering off-piste.

Someone here said recently that they'd been told at a public meeting that the legislation to rescind mandatory use of cycle tracks was at draft stage. The last newsletter from the Dublin Cycle Campaign said that the legislation was "imminent".

Ignore at your peril - there are many motorists who will make it their business to teach cyclists a lesson, one at a time - be wise and heed what you're being told!

Imminent since last year - or in other words, the law remains and must be obeyed. Or maybe we'll all continue ignoring the laws that dont suit us.
What one will I ignore? .... oh I wonder which one it will be ..... target practice is such fun on sunny days ...

Marvinthefish · 18-06-2010 03:25PM

vynkdc73hg0xb4 wrote: »

Ignore at your peril - there are many motorists who will make it their business to teach cyclists a lesson, one at a time - be wise and heed what you're being told!

Imminent since last year - or in other words, the law remains and must be obeyed. Or maybe we'll all continue ignoring the laws that dont suit us.
What one will I ignore? .... oh I wonder which one it will be ..... target practice is such fun on sunny days ...

Idleater · 18-06-2010 03:32PM

vynkdc73hg0xb4 wrote: »

Or maybe we'll all continue ignoring the laws that dont suit us.

But I pay my road tax

doozerie · 18-06-2010 03:47PM

vynkdc73hg0xb4 wrote: »

Or maybe we'll all continue ignoring the laws that dont suit us.
What one will I ignore? .... oh I wonder which one it will be .....

The one that says that children should be seen and not heard, apparently.

tomasrojo · 18-06-2010 04:06PM

vynkdc73hg0xb4 wrote: »

Ignore at your peril - there are many motorists who will make it their business to teach cyclists a lesson, one at a time

No, there are hardly any. Almost all will content themselves with shouting indiscernible rants out the window.

vynkdc73hg0xb4 wrote: »

Or maybe we'll all continue ignoring the laws that dont suit us.
What one will I ignore?

I think Henry David Thoreau has already answered this.

tomasrojo · 18-06-2010 04:28PM

manwithaplan wrote: »

Is it really that bad? I have commuted by bike since the early nineties and found it a cheap, safe, efficient and healthy way of getting around. I don't encounter these daily problems and when I hit the odd snag/do something stupid/meet another road user doing something stupid, I deal with it and continue on my merry way.

I find that it's very much dependent on the route. I was encountering quite alarming and depressing amounts of intimidation on the North Circular Road for a while. It's hardly surprising when you look at it: very narrow lanes with fast-moving, heavy traffic, resulting in very few opportunities for safe over-taking.

I changed my routes to use as little of the NCR as possible and now my life is every so much quieter.

manwithaplan wrote: »

I would recommend cycling to anyone. Would you?

I'm always recommending it to people, but I've had only a few converts. I usually give advice about routes and road technique so that the timid can avoid the worst roads.

I agree though. The experience of cycling, for me also, is overwhelmingly positive. I really enjoy it and consider a day wasted on which the sun has set without some time spent on the bike.

SubLuminal · 18-06-2010 06:50PM

Just out of interest then, if one steps into me on the cycle lane and I get hurt can I sue him? Because I could do with a few bike upgrades; maybe next time I won't pull the brakes as hard

Hermy · 19-06-2010 04:14PM

petethedrummer wrote: »

Just cycle on the road and ignore taxi men if they beep at you.

Ah, don't be like that - some of us mean well.:)

petethedrummer · 19-06-2010 07:20PM

Hermy wrote: »

Ah, don't be like that - some of us mean well.:)

I don't have a particular problem with any type of driver. But the only ones who have beeped at me for this sort of this thing is taxi drivers.

tomasrojo · 19-06-2010 09:20PM

I guess taxi drivers speak from a position of knowledge, as they are the only other road users who can claim that they've tried out the cycle lanes before asking others to use them.

The trying out has consisted mostly of parking on them, but it's experience nonetheless.

(Not having a go, Hermy!)

Hermy · 20-06-2010 01:19PM

Bloody cycling lanes aren't nearly wide enough to park in...:o:p
Y'know I'd be first in the queue when it comes to bad mouthing taxi drivers but like Pete I don't single out any particular road user - we're all equally capable of making bad decisions.
Back when I was cycling though, I always found not using the cycle lanes on the Stillorgan dual carraigeway meant taking your life in your hands. The Dublin Bus drivers always went to great effort to pass me with inches to spare.

fullstop · 20-06-2010 05:13PM

tunney wrote: »

So if someone is walking down the M50 thats grand?

No, you might notice signs coming onto all motorways with the rules of who can and can't use motorways...if you read this, one on the list is 'NO PEDESTRIANS'.

cyclopath2001 · 20-06-2010 05:43PM

fullstop wrote: »

No, you might notice signs coming onto all motorways with the rules of who can and can't use motorways...if you read this, one on the list is 'NO PEDESTRIANS'.

ROTR are:

1: Nobody is allowed hurt anybody else, even if it's a pedestrian on a cycle track.

2: Pedestrians are required by law to use footpaths where provided.

3: Pedestrians required (like everyone else) to take proper care and attention for their own safety and that of others.

4: There is no such thing as a shared cycle track/footway. There must be separate areas marked for pedestrians and cyclists.

tomasrojo · 20-06-2010 09:09PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

4: There is no such thing as a shared cycle track/footway.

And yet they are implied in quite a few places. Such as the footpath that runs along St. John's Road down to Heuston station. The bus lane has the (legally meaningless) bus-only bus-lane sign (the standard bus-lane sign, but with the bicycle blanked out), and the footpath has the (also legally meaningless) pedestrian/cyclist shared path sign.

This one I think it is:

chogxox · 20-06-2010 09:26PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

True, and it also means that cycling is unattractive to the shy and timid, since asserting your rights in the face of aggression by others really isn't to everyone's taste.

You're probably right Tomasrojo, I haven't been cycling in Dublin long enough and I'm probably too shy to assert myself with motorists but I'm sure as time passes I'll become more confident on the roads. Saying that I love cycling! I love being out in the fresh air and find it a great way to get some extra exercise and switch off after work. I have been exploring other routes and although I don't always have the time in the mornings, in the afternoons I don't mind adding a little extra time onto my journey.

tomasrojo · 20-06-2010 11:27PM

I guess, on reflection, my statement was a bit broad! I do know a few people who were put off by intimidation, but others who haven't seen any. How much intimidation you get depends quite a bit on others' assumptions about you. This includes how you look, I suppose.

You're right though; the route is the main thing. Some roads are very nice and hassle-free. Search these out and cherish them. As you say, a little extra time is worth it.

Cycle track right of way

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