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Is Glenn Beck the new Joe McCarthy?

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭BigBenRoeth


    Joe McCarthy ftw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭droidus


    In fairness, it's pretty much standard historical knowledge these days.
    Ellen Schrecker is very good on the subject (although it's beena while since I read the book)

    I don't think anyone is denying that infiltration occurred during the Cold War (a time of international intrigue and espionage) But to claim that McCarthy didn't repeatedly step over the line or that his work was in any way proportionate borders on revisionism.

    Whilst not defending McCarthy or his methods for a second, the Mitrokhin Archives revealed that the Russian espionage network in the US was actually far more elaborate than even McCarthy believed. His campaign did expose many Russian spies and damage soviet intelligence gathering abilities in the US, and the KGB were genuinely fearful that it would wipe out their entire network.

    And before anyone suggests otherwise, I have absolutely no sympathy for McCarthy or US behaviour in the cold war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    jank wrote: »
    The American Heritage Dictionary (2000) defines "McCarthyism" as "the practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence" and "the use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition."

    Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1961) defines it as "characterized chiefly by opposition to elements held to be subversive and by the use of tactics involving personal attacks on individuals by means of widely publicized indiscriminate allegations especially on the basis of unsubstantiated charges

    END THREAD!

    Next!

    End Thread? Not so fast my friend.

    Yep, you picked up on the Rosetta stone of liberal lies... McCarthyism, the inaccurate reflexive adjective that has come to mean "the victimization of innocent people." Problem is as I have read, that you can only accurately describe McCarthyism as a witch hunt if you accept the fact that actual witches existed in our government.

    (I wonder if the term “Obamaism” becomes a metaphor for a “savvy politician put into a high level executive office, who becomes a textbook example of incompetence for the position,” will it accurately describe the man? But I somewhat digress)

    As far as I’m concerned, the demonization of McCarthy was the beginning of the tactic widely used by the Left today of “attacking the messenger rather than the message.”

    When people talk about Joe McCarthy, do they talk about the Venona intercepts, or that the collapse of Communism and the opening of Soviet files which essentially proved McCarthy to be right? Does anybody talk about Whittaker Chambers? Do they talk about FDR and Truman ignoring J. Edgar Hoover’s reports and warnings? Do they talk about Roosevelt sending his Domestic Affairs advisor, Harry Hopkins, to warn the Soviet embassy that their phones were tapped? Or Truman’s refusal to deal with the list of known Communists and sympathizers within our government because he didn’t want to give Republicans ammunition against him. That high government officials turned on McCarthy because they feared investigations of their past appointments and associations with people who turned out to be communists or sympathizers? Do they talk about the fact that from 1943 until 1980, the National Security Agency intercepted every Soviet message going from or to the United States? Do they talk about information obtained from studies of old Soviet files in Moscow (after the collapse), which combined with other data shows that McCarthy was correct? I think not!!! They just talk about Joe McCarthy (of irish decent) the monster.

    Unfortunately fiction outweighs fact in this moment in history. "Out of the 10,000 government employees who were exposed as Communists, security risks, or of questionable loyalty and lost their jobs, at the least, only forty can be attributed to McCarthy." His real sin... He was an obnoxious jerk! But a jerk that exposed the dirty secrets of the 1930's and 40's, and alerted the nation to the fact that there existed communist influence over American foreign policy.

    So I guess if like Joe McCarthy (who was on the right side of history and morality), Glenn Beck is an insufferable jerk who is alerting America to a clear and present danger from within... to our country and way of life, then yes you can compare the two.

    Some sources, some of which were utilized above:
    http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/joe-mccarthy-was-right/
    http://www.spongobongo.com/em/em9820.htm
    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=4020
    http://article.nationalreview.com/268072/two-cheers-for-mccarthyism/jonah-goldberg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Tell me, exactly what is this modern day danger? Secret Muslims in the white house? Give me a break.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Overheal wrote: »
    Tell me, exactly what is this modern day danger? Secret Muslims in the white house? Give me a break.

    Here read this as a good start:
    http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/02/obama-vs-america-by-thomas-sowell/


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 ✭✭✭Mjollnir


    Amerika wrote: »
    :pac:
    I’m not giving up on you. I continue to hope that some day you will actually make a contribution to the discussion.

    When the day comes that you actually engage in dialog of any substance, you be sure and let me know, hmmm?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭droidus


    Amerika wrote: »
    Glenn Beck is an insufferable jerk who is alerting America to a clear and present danger from within... to our country and way of life, then yes you can compare the two.


    Er... the danger of crack cocaine abuse? The danger of botched hemorrhoid operations? The danger of Mormonism?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Amerika wrote: »

    That article is pathetic. It gives no facts and no examples of so-called "threats". All it does is make vague statements like "When a President of the United States has begun the process of dismantling America from within" and "Barack Obama has made every mistake that was made by the Western democracies in the 1930s".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Mjollnir wrote: »
    When the day comes that you actually engage in dialog of any substance, you be sure and let me know, hmmm?

    Methinks it’s time to get the prescription for your glasses updated.

    Come on, we're pulling for you, try a real contribution to the discussion... you can do it if you try.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    droidus wrote: »
    Er... the danger of crack cocaine abuse? The danger of botched hemorrhoid operations? The danger of Mormonism?
    They say sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words (and sometimes it’s worth even more ;)).


    bnh.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭droidus


    Ye-ah....

    i think that tells me all i need to know alright.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Amerika wrote: »
    I was hoping for something a little more pragmatic, objective; I dare say even analytical?

    Like, How is he destroying the country from within? By letting The People of the United States vote the GOP out of Power?

    Seriously though Im more than happy to whip out the smoking pipe and sink into a chair while I peruse whatever you fancy about why Missile Shield this, Hugo Chavez that, will lead this country to its destruction. Please show your work; we expect that much of our 9th graders.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Amerika wrote: »
    They say sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words (and sometimes it’s worth even more ;)).


    bnh.jpg

    lol, pure genius!

    post of the day imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Overheal wrote: »
    I was hoping for something a little more pragmatic, objective; I dare say even analytical?

    Like, How is he destroying the country from within? By letting The People of the United States vote the GOP out of Power?

    Seriously though Im more than happy to whip out the smoking pipe and sink into a chair while I peruse whatever you fancy about why Missile Shield this, Hugo Chavez that, will lead this country to its destruction. Please show your work; we expect that much of our 9th graders.

    Pot calling the kettle black?

    I don’t want to deviate any more from the topic, otherwise to again be accused of hijacking the thread. (Some of us are required to operate by different standards than others.) Maybe you might want to start a new thread on that particular topic and I would be more than happy to oblige.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Amerika wrote: »
    When people talk about Joe McCarthy, do they talk about the Venona intercepts, or that the collapse of Communism and the opening of Soviet files which essentially proved McCarthy to be right?

    The Verona intercepts, and all other evidence that's subsequently come to light, indicates that out of all McCarthy's lists (amounting to 159 named people) a grand total of 9 spied for, or helped the soviets. That's somewhat short of random chance in the accuracy stakes, given that some ex communists were bound to be aiding the Soviet Union. So - no, the guy was proven to be essentially wrong.

    But to give him credit - he wasn't shilling for gold buyers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    For McCarthyism in action, also see Mad Cow Epidemic.

    In the United Kingdom, the country worst affected, more than 179,000 cattle have been infected and 4.4 million slaughtered during the eradication programme.[2]

    Which is about, oh, 4% efficiency when you consider just how many cattle were incinerated?

    Granted, McCarthy had 5.6% efficiency. But I'd say that only makes the case against biodiesels.

    Also consider McConneryism:



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    What alastair forgot to note from what I believe is the article he got his facts from (and of which Overheal seems to just accept as rote, while asking me for numerous sources… hmmm) is the following. “Recent scholarship has established of 159 persons investigated between 1950 and 1952, there is substantial evidence nine had assisted Soviet espionage using evidence from Venona or other sources. Of the remainder, while not being directly complicit in espionage, many were considered security risks.”

    Gee, that makes it a much much higher accuracy rate. (I might be wrong about this number, and if I’m required to provide signed affidavits to substantiate a more accurate estimate, I just might have to retract.)

    Also just about all of Joe McCarthy’s numbered cases were not developed by himself, but drawn from the “Lee List” or “108 list” of unresolved Department of State security cases compiled by the investigators for the House Appropriates Committee in 1947.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Amerika wrote: »
    What alastair forgot to note from what I believe is the article he got his facts from (and of which Overheal seems to just accept as rote, while asking me for numerous sources… hmmm) is the following. “Recent scholarship has established of 159 persons investigated between 1950 and 1952, there is substantial evidence nine had assisted Soviet espionage using evidence from Venona or other sources. Of the remainder, while not being directly complicit in espionage, many were considered security risks.”

    Gee, that makes it a much much higher accuracy rate. (I might be wrong about this number, and if I’m required to provide signed affidavits to substantiate a more accurate estimate, I just might have to retract.)

    Also just about all of Joe McCarthy’s numbered cases were not developed by himself, but drawn from the “Lee List” or “108 list” of unresolved Department of State security cases compiled by the investigators for the House Appropriates Committee in 1947.
    Thats like saying "of 159 Triple Chocolate Milkshakes, 9 were found to be tainted with Anti-freeze, while the rest were still considered health risks" :pac:

    Either way I gather he still claimed all 159 were communists. That only 9 of them were, is a 5.6% truth. Thats even before I go way past my age group and read into the real underlyingness of the term McCarthyism, which is all about claiming people are communists/islamofascists to bully your opposition into silence. I remember schmidt was a big fan of the tactic before I stopped listening to him.

    Anywho you seem to be in agreement with 9 in 159 so i dont see the fuss.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    As in the words of the immortal late great Paul Harvey, I'm just providing “The Rest of the Story.”


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Amerika wrote: »
    As in the words of the immortal late great Paul Harvey, I'm just providing “The Rest of the Story.”

    No you're not, you're block posting someone elses opinion and wrapping it up in nice pretty slogans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Anywho,

    New McCarthy? No. McCarthy had political, as well as legal influence as a Senator. Beck on the other hand is another talking head who probably holds almost as much political influence as any talking head, but he's no Lawmaker, or Senator, or even a Cop. He doesn't have any authority to have people investigated and whatnot.

    But like McCarthy, its probably only a matter of time before he's taken off the air and left to exercise his freedom of speech when he's not on a sponsor's dime.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Amerika wrote: »
    Gee, that makes it a much much higher accuracy rate. (I might be wrong about this number, and if I’m required to provide signed affidavits to substantiate a more accurate estimate, I just might have to retract.)

    You seem to want to avoid the crux of McCarthy's position - that there were rampant soviet spy rings in the State Dept, in the military and the CIA. That simply was not the case, as was proven over and over again. If you want to equate all american communists with spies or soviet agents, then McCarthy fares slightly better - if 'better' means witch-hunting legitimate political dissent. Such arch soviet agents as Martin Luther King, George Orwell, Albert Einstein and Lucille Ball were all considered 'security risks' in their day.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Amerika wrote: »
    End Thread? Not so fast my friend.

    Yep, you picked up on the Rosetta stone of liberal lies......

    ....


    Yawn. Do you have any opinion of your own? Why do you have to bring everything down to the lowest common denominator?

    You will never listen to reason to why waste my time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    I'm hearing the that the new novel, The Overton Window by Glenn Beck, is pretty good. Think I'll have to get it once I'm done reading Arguing with Idiots.
    "Glenn Beck never fails to amaze. The Overton Window, a rip-roaring read of the first order, is as good a political thriller as you're going to find this year."
    —Nelson DeMille, New York Times bestselling author

    "A novel ripped from today's headlines and destined to be as controversial as it is eye-opening. No matter your politics, this Hitchcockian thriller will have you turning pages well into the night."
    —James Rollins, New York Times bestselling author

    "A visionary work of fiction. One of the best thrillers I've read in years."
    —Vince Flynn, New York Times bestselling author

    "Glenn Beck has just shattered the fiction barrier. The Overton Window is the perfect all-American thriller."
    —Brad Thor, #1 New York Times bestselling author

    "Like the best thriller writers out there, Glenn scares us by showing what can really happen. Get ready to sleep with the lights on. This is the one. You'll never look at history the same way again." --#1 NYT bestselling author Brad Meltzer


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Amerika wrote: »
    I'm hearing the that the new novel, The Overton Window by Glenn Beck, is pretty good. Think I'll have to get it once I'm done reading Arguing with Idiots.


    By any chance, are you working for Glenn Beck's marketing team?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    kev9100 wrote: »
    By any chance, are you working for Glenn Beck's marketing team?
    Nope, don't work for or with anyone in the political arena. (But Michael Steele and John McCain are bugging the hell out of me begging for money. Think I'll keep my political donations to the local level for now on. :mad:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    I liked to watch him for the entertaining "lol look at the mad man waffling on about communism again" until the night I watched one of his rants and he started saying Ireland was "a communist country and it was the reason why the country was now bankrupt" :mad: None of what he said was true but I'd reckon many Americans would actually believe his crap.

    He's an out and out propagandist whack job but also dangerous in my opinion as his rants border on incitement to hatred at times with the out and out lies he peddles without challenge.

    There was one guy who appeared on the Bill O'Reilly show (a senator if I remember rightly) who did openely and very elequently challenge both Beck, O'Reilly and Fox News for backing and openly shilling some "cash for gold" scammers that advertise on Fox News and sponsor Beck's programme. He was excellent and I was surprised they let him on the show at all to argue his point, reckon he was stronger in his views and getting them across than they initially figured he would be. That's the only challenge to Beck I've ever seen on Fox News.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Still crazy after all these years:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Republicans aren't going to care about context. They will focus on the fact that Obama implied White Executives don't want to contribute to inner city kids... in 1995. And they'll wrongly assume that he's a racist, AND, that Obama thinks underpriveledged youths and those below the poverty line deserve free rides for nothing.

    But no, lets not publish the other half of the quote :rolleyes:


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