Government warned about Leaving Cert grade inflation

Permabear · 07-06-2010 10:43AM #1

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Byron85 · 07-06-2010 02:04PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Just to be slightly pedantic, foreign companies seem happy enough with some of our graduates.

The meeting was told that while some companies were delighted with the calibre of graduates from UCD, TCD and UCC, they had concerns about other colleges.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0303/1224265501148.html

There won't be any major reform in education, at least for the foreseeable future, because there are too many vested interests. Most people going into third level are too worried about the next party and if they can afford it rather than their exams. The whole mentality needs to be changed.

Permabear · 07-06-2010 02:27PM

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Seloth · 07-06-2010 03:31PM

Doing to Leaving Cert myself I belive it should be broken down more,with more project work added in a questions in tests asking how to go about somthing((Such as in Business establishing one))...Obviouslythis should exclude English and History as they are both anaylsing more so and are already put to this way.

There is far too much pressure put on Leaving Cert students,especially this year with the supposed rise in points.

Permabear · 07-06-2010 04:02PM

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Byron85 · 07-06-2010 04:27PM

Actually I think that this year will be a good indication of the problem of grade inflation in the leaving certificate. If points for courses continue to go up, which they will, and the same amount of people are getting in to the same courses as years gone by, then there is a much more serious problem than originally thought.

Iwasfrozen · 07-06-2010 05:17PM

donegalfella wrote:

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There is no grade inflation, students are achieving higher grades due to a system of competition introduced by the C.A.O. Students are constantly in competition with each other to secure greater marks then their peers to be accepted into their desired third level course.

The exams haven't gotten any easier. But the competition is constantly growing.

Permabear · 07-06-2010 05:25PM

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Iwasfrozen · 07-06-2010 05:28PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not saying they are any smarter but the principal of competition makes them work harder.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Actually that would be quite interesting.

kev9100 · 07-06-2010 06:30PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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I don't have it with me now, but I saw an English Higher level paper from the 1980s and my god it was a hell of a lot tougher than the ones I'll be doing on Wednesday and Thursday.

Permabear · 07-06-2010 07:00PM

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Iwasfrozen · 07-06-2010 07:13PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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There were fewer places but less people went. You admit that yourself.

P. Breathnach · 07-06-2010 07:57PM

Did our summers become cooler when we switched from Fahrenheit to Celsius?

highlydebased · 07-06-2010 08:05PM

If it were me I'd be in favour of a continual assessment system.

Far less stress on the student throughout, makes provision for an area of the course they find difficult and to that extent it would prevent people from having a "bad day" in the exam, which is unfair on them. Also prevents people from doing nothing for 2 years then studying like hell in the run up to the exam and getting similar grades to someone who has worked consistantly.

PeterIanStaker · 07-06-2010 08:10PM

It's not going to matter how many points they get, they'll be straight on the dole anyways, thanks Fianna Failure.

Iwasfrozen · 07-06-2010 08:13PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

It's not going to matter how many points they get, they'll be straight on the dole anyways, thanks Fianna Failure.

No we won't. We'll be in Uni.

PeterIanStaker · 07-06-2010 08:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No we won't. We'll be in Uni.

Dont ever vote for the ***** runnin the show now. Please. (I never did but some other people are just dumb)

Iwasfrozen · 07-06-2010 08:34PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Dont ever vote for the ***** runnin the show now. Please. (I never did but some other people are just dumb)

What? I'm not being funny I actually didn't understand your post.

Chuchoter · 07-06-2010 08:37PM

I have to say I think its really unfair to say that all the students who worked so hard to get A's and B's are actually crap and didn't deserve them. Just because the percentages went up doesn't mean the grades were easier to get. Curricula changed, teaching methods improved, people had more money to spend on education. On top of that, as the number of higher maths students decreased, only the cream of the crop who really loved maths were left, so of course more of them got As and Bs. There are several other explanations than we're all idiots.

I wouldn't be in favour of continuous assessment, as it doesn't allow for improvement. From the end of second year to the Junior cert I went from a bad C student in higher maths to an A because I worked my ass off. Had I been tested since the beginning of second year, my average would have worked out to have been about 70%, though my ability by the end of it all would have been that of an A student.

I would however appreciate more project work to reward innovation, research skills and it would give students with a real love of the subject a chance to shine. For example in science, I hate learning things by rote, but I can do really good in depth projects/experiments, but that is not rewarded or in fact encouraged by teachers.

DJDC · 07-06-2010 08:49PM

If it were me I'd be in favour of a continual assessment system.

Far less stress on the student throughout, makes provision for an area of the course they find difficult and to that extent it would prevent people from having a "bad day" in the exam, which is unfair on them. Also prevents people from doing nothing for 2 years then studying like hell in the run up to the exam and getting similar grades to someone who has worked consistantly.

I don't agree. A continous assessment system in Ireland with its deep culture of corruption would just lead to everyone trying to fiddle the system and massive grade inflation as a result. The current exam format while admittedly overly based on rote learning is fair, transparent and has good grade granularity.

Also it teaches students to deal with pressure and lets face it lots of important things in life are decided in one event/a space of a few hours. A crucial promotion interview, a keynote speech to clients etc etc. Life isn't fair in the sense than work over a space of time isn't always rewarded unless the preformance in a key stage is sufficient. The LC is a great introduction to this basic premise of the modern capitalist system.

PeterIanStaker · 07-06-2010 09:02PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? I'm not being funny I actually didn't understand your post.

Me being cynical in my old age, thinking that the class of 2010 would be straight onto the dole because of how sh!t things are right now. Hope you'll be grand by the time you graduate. Best of luck on Wednesday.

Iwasfrozen · 07-06-2010 09:05PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Me being cynical in my old age, thinking that the class of 2010 would be straight onto the dole because of how sh!t things are right now. Hope you'll be grand by the time you graduate. Best of luck on Wednesday.

Thank you.

aDeener · 07-06-2010 09:10PM

Neon-Circles wrote: »

If it were me I'd be in favour of a continual assessment system.

Far less stress on the student throughout, makes provision for an area of the course they find difficult and to that extent it would prevent people from having a "bad day" in the exam, which is unfair on them. Also prevents people from doing nothing for 2 years then studying like hell in the run up to the exam and getting similar grades to someone who has worked consistantly.

whats the problem there? some people can do that and fair play to them

Iwasfrozen · 07-06-2010 09:15PM

aDeener wrote: »

whats the problem there? some people can do that and fair play to them

It is unfair to those who have worked from the get go.

Byron85 · 07-06-2010 09:25PM

aDeener wrote: »

whats the problem there? some people can do that and fair play to them

Because it means that they don't actually understand the concepts that they are supposedly learning. Why should someone who didn't turn up for most of their lectures, as was the case with my Sociology lectures this year, be able to sit an exam and get better marks than say someone who has been dedicated to the subject from the start? I wouldn't say it's unfair but it is a rather disingenuous system. How is someone suppose to actually "learn" when they're leaving it all until the last minute.

Overheal · 07-06-2010 09:33PM

Am I the only one confused at the concept that its a problem that students are getting better grades? Is there a quota for Failure or something

goose2005 · 07-06-2010 09:34PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is no grade inflation, students are achieving higher grades due to a system of competition introduced by the C.A.O. Students are constantly in competition with each other to secure greater marks then their peers to be accepted into their desired third level course.

The exams haven't gotten any easier. But the competition is constantly growing.

From doing past papers I know that maths and French, at least, have been getting consistently easier.

P. Breathnach · 07-06-2010 10:02PM

Overheal wrote: »

Am I the only one confused at the concept that its a problem that students are getting better grades? ...

What an interesting to put a question! Can I answer either "yes" or "no" and be understood?

It's not necessarily a problem if students are getting higher grades at secondary school level because, for the most part, students' performance is compared with their peers. Nobody gives a damn about how a 2010 Leaving Certificate candidate's results compares with those I got when I did the Leaving, before the parents of some of them were born.

As the whether actual accomplishment is better or worse, who can say? I got a respectable result in French. My reading comprehension was very good; I could translate material into and from French reasonably well; and I actually knew some grammar. Then I went to France and was lost for aural comprehension and for speech.

[It's a different matter with degrees, where there is an expectation of comparability intra- and inter-nationally.]

Nijmegen · 07-06-2010 10:13PM

Higher grades because students are doing better on exams of the same or compatible difficulty as those in the past, indicating that they are better educated, is excellent news.

But I think we all have the inkling, which these sorts of reports tend to confirm, that grades are being inflated and the general standards required to get certain degrees - from leaving certain up - is diminished, and the quality of our overall workforce called into question for it.

Byron hit the nail on the head early on in this thread - there are too many vested interests involved to have an effective change in our education system.

Vested interests bar those of the students.

aDeener · 07-06-2010 10:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It is unfair to those who have worked from the get go.

if they truly "worked" from the get go, there is no way a 2 week cramming session would result in higher marks

Zambia · 07-06-2010 11:03PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No we won't. We'll be in Uni.

I think that is a class attitude to have.

I would be with Donegal fella if I understand him correctly. If the amount of people are achieving the highest marks is ever increasing then we have to set the bar a bit higher. Thus pushing the students to go the extra mile.

It is the curse of the younger generation that they have to learn more in order to enter a society that is running at a much higher skill level. Its the price you pay for having a PS3 while you had the time to play it.

Government warned about Leaving Cert grade inflation

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