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Dublin-Cork Railway Line

  • 01-06-2010 12:44am
    #1
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭


    Discuss.

    Are any improvements to enable greater speed planned? I took the train for the first time in over a year about two weeks ago and while I enjoyed the train (it was comfortable and clean), the train seemed to go a little slower than I'd expected. So what works are planned for this line, if any?

    And, will they ever refurbish Kent Station?
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Typewriter
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    Furet wrote: »
    And, will they ever refurbish Kent Station?

    Fat chance that if they do it will be like anything that was previously proposed.

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  • #3
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Who proposed that, why and when?


  • #4
    Typewriter
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    That was the proposal for Cork European Capital of Culture 2005. CIE were refused planning (Not enough information) and so instead kent station got a lick of white paint and a few glass doors.

    I cant remember the name of the Architects but I know they are the same people behind the revamp of Blackrock village(still yet to happen).

    EDIT: O'Mahony Pike Architects

    Kent Station
    A new City Waterfront with Quayside Marina is proposed in this urban regeneration project on a 15 acres, neglected brownfield site at the heart of the City.

    The site includes the existing Kent Station, the principle Station for Cork City and .75 kilometre frontage on to the River Lee at Horgan Quay. A major transport interchange is proposed with a new Station, 80,000m² of Retail, Leisure and Commercial plus 1,600 apartments. This project was the winner in a design/build Competition with Manor Park Home Builders and Treasury Holdings.


  • #5
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    I know at the moment that IE are relaying the line with stronger track. I think there's a few short sections of the line done, but I have no idea when it'll be finished, if they plan to relay the lot, or if it will lead to increased journey times.

    I also know that the line is currently riddled with speed restrictions - something I believe IE were in court with one of their engineering managers for?

    When the Kildare route project is done, it should lead to a faster approach to Heuston. I believe there is quite a lot of slack in the timetable - it takes 2h50 now - should be around with no delays and trains run 2h30 flat out, I believe. IE should be aiming for 2h to 2h15 to keep the line halfway competitive.


  • #6
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Whats the drive time on a coach now for direct services with the Motorway completed? how does it compare price and time versus the train? Just for interest I am unlikely to ever use it living where I do.


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  • #7
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    westtip wrote: »
    Whats the drive time on a coach now for direct services with the Motorway completed? how does it compare price and time versus the train? Just for interest I am unlikely to ever use it living where I do.

    I think you can get a €10 ticket Dublin-Cork if you buy online, in which case the train is superb value. I very rarely take it though as I seldom go from Dublin-Cork. Thurles or Kent, depending on where I am, would be the only two stations I'd use. Having said that a one-way online ticket from Thurles-Houston cost me €23 last time I went, so prices seem variable.


  • #8
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Green-jesus,

    There was a proposal subsequent to this, which was not dependent on the Horgan's Quay development (I have a copy of the plan on my wall dated Nov 07). It was a lot smaller and less intrusive than the 05 proposal, and essentially left the existing building untouched (wise, because it's a PS), and involved an oval terminal building to the south of the existing structure, with a tunnel running under the tracks, with escalators/stairs up to the various platforms. It was costed and fairly far along, but was never made public for some reason, and never formally sought funding. It also includes the Luas line though, so it should probably be regarded as somewhat aspirational.

    Cork Station (or 'Kent Station') isn't that bad, to be honest - the important issue is to improve access from the city centre, so pedestrian access from Horgan's Quay and better public transport. The key priority for the service is to improve the journey time - ideally to around 2 hours - everything else is much improved. As it stands, there are a lot of people who would chose to use the train when travelling for business - I've used it midweek a few times recently and it has always been relatively full. Keeping that business and building on it is critiical for IE.

    Any capital for infrastructure works is going to be very difficult to come by for the foreseeable future though.


  • #9
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    As it stands, there are a lot of people who would chose to use the train when travelling for business - I've used it midweek a few times recently and it has always been relatively full. Keeping that business and building on it is critiical for IE.

    +1

    The train will continue to be popular until such time as bus companies start a genuine Cork-Dublin M8/M7 express service, which looks to be a long way away.


  • #10
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Wasn't the original IE/Cork City Co. plan pre 2005 to consolidate train and bus services into a redeveloped Kent station? And weren't those Horgans Quay plans thrown out by the City planners because it was essentially an ill conceived build-loads-of-apartments plan with a train station re-development tacked onto it?.

    As for Cork - Dublin by train, long term a complete renewal of the line is needed to drastically improve times to beat the motorway. I'd like to think if/when there will be money available for upgrading intercity rail infrastructure the Belfast - Dublin - Cork lines should be given priority for upgrades to higher speed levels before the taxpayer starts p*ssing away money subsidising more rural branch lines.


  • #11
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Wasn't the original IE/Cork City Co. plan pre 2005 to consolidate train and bus services into a redeveloped Kent station?

    Not quite. Moving the bus station in Cork was considered a number of times in recent years. In 1999-2001 consideration was given to moving it to the railway station or the then becoming vacant An Post Sorting office (where the Elysian now is). Both were knocked down on the basis of cost/increased distance from the city centre. The Railway station idea came up again later (04-05), but was again knocked down on a cost basis, and because of the uncertainty over what a revised Railway Station would actually look like - the 05 plan is very expansive, and involves substantial track works to facilitate through trains for the commuter service (Mallow-Midleton/Cobh). The 07 proposal has very little new track work (that I can tell).
    And weren't those Horgans Quay plans thrown out by the City planners because it was essentially an ill conceived build-loads-of-apartments plan with a train station re-development tacked onto it?.
    Yup, and because the committment of IE to actually build the railway station element of it was suspect to begin with.

    Investment priorities should be higher speeds on the core services (Dublin-Cork,Limerick, Galway), and then improve the level of commuter service after that, where (and when) demand justifies (all of which assumes that MN and the Interconnector get built!).


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  • #12
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    I've run out of time, so I'll leave it to you guys to discuss! I just want to know what people think and if there's anythink I've overlooked.

    Just taking your last sentence - check out the OP on this thread, your very comprehensive wish list is probably best set down again as a new thread methinks.


  • #13
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    westtip wrote: »
    Just taking your last sentence - check out the OP on this thread, your very comprehensive wish list is probably best set down again as a new thread methinks.

    Good point. Posts moved here.


  • #14
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    What kind of ballpark figures are we talking about to get Dublin - Cork running to a 150 - 200kmph standard?

    Billions? Would there ever be enough passenger traffic between the two cities to justify such investment. In my mind Dublin - Belfast takes priority for any future investment.


  • #15
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    What kind of ballpark figures are we talking about to get Dublin - Cork running to a 150 - 200kmph standard?

    Billions? Would there ever be enough passenger traffic between the two cities to justify such investment. In my mind Dublin - Belfast takes priority for any future investment.

    Dublin - Cork is already at 160 km/h standard generally. It is, however covered with speed restrictions that bring down journey time, and Irish Rail's timetables are unambitious. It would hardly cost billions to fix - maybe a few hundred million to permanently fix speed restrictions, fix a few stations (Limerick junction comes to mind...) and straighten a few bits.


  • #16
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Furet wrote: »
    Discuss.

    Are any improvements to enable greater speed planned? I took the train for the first time in over a year about two weeks ago and while I enjoyed the train (it was comfortable and clean), the train seemed to go a little slower than I'd expected. So what works are planned for this line, if any?

    And, will they ever refurbish Kent Station?

    Never saw those plans for Cork Station until today - thankfully it looks like they have been consigned to the dustbin much like the redevelopment of Waterford Station. Apart from the obvious i.e. improvements to timings and the rebuilding of Limerick Junction, how about getting rid of the luxury office for clerical staff travel centre and reinstating the much missed Glanmire Buffet?


  • #17
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Dublin - Cork is already at 160 km/h standard generally. It is, however covered with speed restrictions that bring down journey time, and Irish Rail's timetables are unambitious. It would hardly cost billions to fix - maybe a few hundred million to permanently fix speed restrictions, fix a few stations (Limerick junction comes to mind...) and straighten a few bits.

    And all should have been done under the On Track 2000 programme, if IE had even a semblence of real interest in the network. But of course they only think in mere basic terms and that's why after a considerable period of investment our rail network is still outdated. A fact many refuse to accept. IE are just as responsible for this as the Government. In fact I hold IE more responsible as they prepared the programme that was presented to Government. Furthermore they had ambitions in the early 70s to bring the Cork run down to 2H 30 Mins with an average speed of 78mph! They're a shower of prats.


  • #18
    Plowman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


  • #19
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    A 1993 quote from ex CIE Chairman, Paul Conlan;
    We go on from here. We are improving the competitiveness of the railway in terms of speed and comfort. This year will see major track improvement and renewal on the Cork lone as part of a £12 million spend - 75% funded by the EC.
    This upgrading of track will give smoother and faster rides to trains - all improvements responding to our customers needs. In addition, next year will see the introduction of 10 of the most powerful and fastest locomotives ever to run on Irish railways - these will be capable of 100mph operation and will bring down journey times on the Cork line to 2 hrs 15 mins.

    This quote is taken from the 1993 launch of City Gold. Furthermore, 20 years earlier a CIE chairman also announced a considerable reduction in journey times on this route. Yet they have consistantly failed to honour the promises. despite the investment.


  • #20
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    A 1993 quote from ex CIE Chairman, Paul Conlan;



    This quote is taken from the 1993 launch of City Gold. Furthermore, 20 years earlier a CIE chairman also announced a considerable reduction in journey times on this route. Yet they have consistantly failed to honour the promises. despite the investment.

    The same man who promised to make Inchicore a centre of engineering excellence....they eventually even outsourced the construction of the Network Catering tea trollies! :pac::pac::pac::pac:


  • #21
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    The worst aspect of Kent Station, Cork is the curved main intercity platforms! You have to jump a good 2ft to safely land on the platform at some train doors!

    I'm amazed that none of the plans have considered doing something to provide maybe 4 straight platforms and using the existing hall for some other purpose?

    There's enough space to construct new platforms on that site and there is no particular reason hy the intercity trains need to rib through and on to Cobh/Midleton commuter lines!!

    Really they need to think of passengers! Not 19th C !!


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  • #22
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Solair wrote: »
    Really they need to think of passengers!

    Irish Rail thinking of passengers?

    I think that's a wee bit too much to ask. :D


  • #23
    ilovegermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭ilovegermany


    Just wondering if anybody knows anything if the following is true, false or just hearsay ..... I'm not a regular traveller out of Heuston anymore so just wanted to see if anybody has any more up to date info....

    1. That Irish Rail are actively working on the stretch around Portarlington - Portlaoise to remove the speed restrictions in this area?

    2. That they are also renewing the "old" two tracks on the Inchicore - Hazelhatch stretch as the additional two tracks are now complete?


  • #24
    ilovegermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭ilovegermany


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Dublin - Cork is already at 160 km/h standard generally. It is, however covered with speed restrictions that bring down journey time, and Irish Rail's timetables are unambitious. It would hardly cost billions to fix - maybe a few hundred million to permanently fix speed restrictions, fix a few stations (Limerick junction comes to mind...) and straighten a few bits.


    Just wondering if anybody knows where the main speed restrictions are on the line and how much is actually 160 km/h. I emailed Irish Rail a bunch of times but no reply from anybody..


  • #25
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    ilovegermany wrote: »
    Just wondering if anybody knows anything if the following is true, false or just hearsay ..... I'm not a regular traveller out of Heuston anymore so just wanted to see if anybody has any more up to date info....

    1. That Irish Rail are actively working on the stretch around Portarlington - Portlaoise to remove the speed restrictions in this area?

    2. That they are also renewing the "old" two tracks on the Inchicore - Hazelhatch stretch as the additional two tracks are now complete?

    Not sure about the Portarlington - Portlaoise stretch, but the old track from Inchicore - Hazelhatch is being replaced now that the new tracks are down.


  • #26
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Dublin - Cork is already at 160 km/h standard generally.

    We know that but I think this thread is about the slower train line rather than the main road...


  • #27
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Furet wrote: »
    The train will continue to be popular until such time as bus companies start a genuine Cork-Dublin M8/M7 express service, which looks to be a long way away.
    Would this ever be any good? Buses are limited to 80 km/h so DUB-CORK would be 3 hours ex traffic. This is slower than both the train and driving.
    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Never saw those plans for Cork Station until today - thankfully it looks like they have been consigned to the dustbin much like the redevelopment of Waterford Station.
    Dunno why there's so much hatred of the Kent Station redev. Certainly it's needed for future expansion and it's appropriate to surround public transport nodes with high density developments - since they don't generate car traffic that way. Still think they should eventually go ahead with this one.


  • #28
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,034 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Would this ever be any good? Buses are limited to 80 km/h so DUB-CORK would be 3 hours ex traffic. This is slower than both the train and driving.

    100km/hr now on motorways and dual carriageways (since Feb 2009 I think...).


  • #29
    KC61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    ilovegermany wrote: »
    Just wondering if anybody knows where the main speed restrictions are on the line and how much is actually 160 km/h. I emailed Irish Rail a bunch of times but no reply from anybody..

    Firstly railway speeds are still measured in mph, not kph.

    Top line speed on Dublin/Cork is 100mph, but this is limited to the section between Cherryville Junction and near Portarlington if I remember correctly. Most of the rest of the route should be 80 or 90mph, but isn't in many places due to a variety of temporary restrictions. There has been extensive night-time work on the section from Newbridge to Portlaoise and this is ongoing south of Portarlington - there was a permanent speed restriction of 75mph imposed on this section in 2008/2009 but this has now been lifted.

    There are various restrictions along the line, such as at Ballybrophy, Lisduff, Limerick Junction, and at the half-barrier level crossings south of Limerick Junction.

    Limerick Junction requires major work (similar to that carried out at Portarlington which has seen a big improvement) to renew the track and remodel the station, but it is unclear as to when this will start. Currently there is a 25mph restriction on the running lines through the station.

    The original running lines between Inchicore and Hazelhatch are being relaid currently, during the rest of 2010. The completion of the Kildare Route Project will see a 6 minute increase in journey times on all services between Heuston and Sallins (to allow for temporary speed restrictions) removed.

    All told there is a lot of work to do yet. This needs to be a priority for the company, not least in order to be able to deliver an improved core product along the main line that has some hope of competing with road, but also to enable "up" and "down" trains between Dublin and Cork to call at Limerick Junction pretty much simultaneously and thereby offer the potential for meaningful services on the Galway-Limerick-Waterford route by elimintating the long waits at Limerick Junction.


  • #30
    ilovegermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭ilovegermany


    KC61 wrote: »
    Firstly railway speeds are still measured in mph, not kph.

    Top line speed on Dublin/Cork is 100mph, but this is limited to the section between Cherryville Junction and near Portarlington if I remember correctly. Most of the rest of the route should be 80 or 90mph, but isn't in many places due to a variety of temporary restrictions. There has been extensive night-time work on the section from Newbridge to Portlaoise and this is ongoing south of Portarlington - there was a permanent speed restriction of 75mph imposed on this section in 2008/2009 but this has now been lifted.

    There are various restrictions along the line, such as at Ballybrophy, Lisduff, Limerick Junction, and at the half-barrier level crossings south of Limerick Junction.

    Limerick Junction requires major work (similar to that carried out at Portarlington which has seen a big improvement) to renew the track and remodel the station, but it is unclear as to when this will start. Currently there is a 25mph restriction on the running lines through the station.

    The original running lines between Inchicore and Hazelhatch are being relaid currently, during the rest of 2010. The completion of the Kildare Route Project will see a 6 minute increase in journey times on all services between Heuston and Sallins (to allow for temporary speed restrictions) removed.

    All told there is a lot of work to do yet. This needs to be a priority for the company, not least in order to be able to deliver an improved core product along the main line that has some hope of competing with road, but also to enable "up" and "down" trains between Dublin and Cork to call at Limerick Junction pretty much simultaneously and thereby offer the potential for meaningful services on the Galway-Limerick-Waterford route by elimintating the long waits at Limerick Junction.


    Thanks KC 61. Thats great.
    When the original tracks are re-laid along the Kildare Route Project element and the four tracking is up and running, will it possible to get 100 mph for Intercity trains along there?


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  • #31
    KC61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    ilovegermany wrote: »
    Thanks KC 61. Thats great.
    When the original tracks are re-laid along the Kildare Route Project element and the four tracking is up and running, will it possible to get 100 mph for Intercity trains along there?

    It should certainly revert to 90mph, getting to 100mph would depend on the topography of the line - there's a fairly major curve before Hazelhatch that might not allow it.


  • #32
    NedNew2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭NedNew2


    KC61 wrote: »
    Firstly railway speeds are still measured in mph, not kph.

    Which to me says it all about Iarnrod Eireann. Stuck in the past, unwilling to change.


  • #33
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    what, you want to replace one consistent measure that the company knows and is used to, with another one for no real reason, thereby introducing a risk while everyone changes over ? removing and remapping all the mile markers with km markers ? has the ratio between the mile and the km changed since I last looked or wha ? Is a km sexy or something because it's a french metric ?

    Also, we share a network with NIR, who also use MPH - why bother changing ?

    Get out of it.


  • #34
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i was interested to note that in that Imperial measurement bastion that is the UK, the Motorway signs are all in miles but the marker posts along the way are in Km..... i bet there will be a row about that when "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" spots it...


  • #35
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    corktina - are sure? Sounds bizarre. Years since I was on a UK motorway but I don't remember the markers. :confused:


  • #36
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    yep..id call them mileposts if they werent in Km....it doesnt actually say Km on them but the 160 one is 100 miles from London for instance... (thats the M4 can't vouch for other motorways...


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  • #37
    NedNew2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭NedNew2


    trellheim wrote: »
    what, you want to replace one consistent measure that the company knows and is used to, with another one for no real reason, thereby introducing a risk while everyone changes over ? removing and remapping all the mile markers with km markers ? has the ratio between the mile and the km changed since I last looked or wha ? Is a km sexy or something because it's a french metric ?

    Also, we share a network with NIR, who also use MPH - why bother changing ?

    Get out of it.

    Trellheim, I don't want to go off topic on this thread but if you'd like to pm me I would be more than happy to debate with you. I respectfully disagree with you and am willing to discuss.

    thereby introducing a risk while everyone changes over : We're talking about a couple of dozen drivers here. The new trains are already calibrated in kph. If millions of Irish drivers changed over in 2005 without incident I'm sure IE's finest can.

    removing and remapping all the mile markers with km markers: Did I say anything about doing that? No. Leave them be. A simple plate can be added to each milepost to display the km distance if required.

    has the ratio between the mile and the km changed since I last looked or wha ? answer is "wha" since the ratio is the same, why do you ask?

    Is a km sexy or something because it's a french metric ? A french metric? More accurate to say a logical measurement system of french origin, used in every single country in the world bar the US, UK, Burmah and one other African country; 96% of the world population. If you consider that "french" or "sexy" then go for it!

    My point originally was that it would appear symptomatic of IE as an incumbent, state run monopolistic behemoth to be antidynamic and resistant to adapt to modern practices in general. Its a type of organisation that only exists in Ireland today because it is immune to the challenges of free market competition.

    If you'd rather take a rant and tangent on my original comment then feel free to do so.


  • #38
    D'Peoples Voice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    A 1993 quote from ex CIE Chairman, Paul Conlan;

    This quote is taken from the 1993 launch of City Gold. Furthermore, 20 years earlier a CIE chairman also announced a considerable reduction in journey times on this route. Yet they have consistantly failed to honour the promises. despite the investment.
    to be fair, I blame the media, surely to god they should be questioning/pesturing IR about why they can't develop a railway line between the two biggest cities in this country that is capable of running trains at high speed.
    It would be one thing if it were the WRC we are talking about, but think of the synercies of properly developing this line from Dublin as far as Portarington, a lot of the same line is used to get to Kilkenny city, Waterford city, Limerick city and Galway city!
    This should have been a prerequiste to any development in railways, yet we spend the money on the WRC instead:mad:


  • #39
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    D'Peoples Voice wrote: »
    to be fair, I blame the media, surely to god they should be questioning/pesturing IR about why they can't develop a railway line between the two biggest cities in this country that is capable of running trains at high speed.
    It would be one thing if it were the WRC we are talking about, but think of the synercies of properly developing this line from Dublin as far as Portarington, a lot of the same line is used to get to Kilkenny city, Waterford city, Limerick city and Galway city!
    This should have been a prerequiste to any development in railways, yet we spend the money on the WRC instead:mad:

    It's not about money - CIE/IE have had tons of money for the Dublin/Cork line and it has always had the best of everything - track/signalling/locos/rolling stock. It's about CIE who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. But you are right it isn't helped by our lazy media not asking the hard questions. RTE are reluctant to have a go at another state agency and many other current affairs magazines don't wish to lose their nice little earners in the form of lavish, useless advertising used to buy their silence.


  • #40
    KC61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    D'Peoples Voice wrote: »
    to be fair, I blame the media, surely to god they should be questioning/pesturing IR about why they can't develop a railway line between the two biggest cities in this country that is capable of running trains at high speed.
    It would be one thing if it were the WRC we are talking about, but think of the synercies of properly developing this line from Dublin as far as Portarington, a lot of the same line is used to get to Kilkenny city, Waterford city, Limerick city and Galway city!
    This should have been a prerequiste to any development in railways, yet we spend the money on the WRC instead:mad:

    The complete lack of any specialist transport journalists who know what they are talking about in this country does not help.


  • #41
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Irish Rail have just -- in the last two days -- rejected a request I made for information on this under the Access to Information on the Environment regulations.

    They claimed the information and reports I requested are not environmental information, I don't accept this given the very wide scope of the AIE regs.

    AIE includes the built environment -- ie track, track bed etc -- and the affect the land has on these -- water, land slides etc -- is environmental in its self. It also includes anything in the environment (including built environment) which could affect human health and safety, given speed restriction are done on safety grounds, there's quite a link.

    Anyway, for these reasons and possibly others, I will be seeking an internal appeal, followed by an external appeal if needed.


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  • #42
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    KC61 wrote: »
    The complete lack of any specialist transport journalists who know what they are talking about in this country does not help.

    Trust me, the media aren't interested in this kind of journalist and aren't willing to pay for the privelage either. I'd go as far as saying that a specialist transport journalist is a comparetively important requirement as your George lee's etc. Misinformation in the form of literal press release reproduction, badly written articles and a lack of inciteful commentary and questioning has allowed the spread of crap.

    I spent many years informing journalists only to see their personal and misinformed opinions ending up on the page. That said there were a few who produced good copy, but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor, based on the advice they got in college. Add to that the horrendous conflict of interests between the media and transport related entities and it all gets bogged down in mediocrity.


  • #43
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Trust me, the media aren't interested in this kind of journalist and aren't willing to pay for the privelage either. I'd go as far as saying that a specialist transport journalist is a comparetively important requirement as your George lee's etc.

    The problem is fairly complex at this stage. From lower pay, striping down media jobs for greater profits long before the downturn, journalism schools selling a product. But all the blame can't be put on media outlets - journalists have become like nomads compared to what they use to be, investing too much in somebody who could leave next year isn't a great idea.

    Knowing something and proving it is another problem -- getting the required documents, information etc can be next to imposable.

    The problem often is general news room (and subeditors) covering too much of what they don't fully understand or know enough. A transport correspondent would not solve everything (even if such would be in my own self interest), general journalists would still need to know what they are covering.

    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Misinformation in the form of literal press release reproduction, badly written articles and a lack of inciteful commentary and questioning has allowed the spread of crap.

    Yeah, I would say press releases are not a problem in them selves, the problems come from copying them literally, not understanding them, misunderstanding them, not being questioning, looking at one bit of a 100 page document etc. Because the nationals are looking for a national and sexy angle, you get the kind of thing where Metro North is called an airport metro -- and then people miss the point that this is also due to sever Swords (and that's regardless of anybody's views on metro).

    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I spent many years informing journalists only to see their personal and misinformed opinions ending up on the page. That said there were a few who produced good copy, but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor, based on the advice they got in college.

    Angles are made up for what the editor wants, that's a problem, but the other problem here is your view will often differ with so many other. Who is right and who is wrong?

    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Add to that the horrendous conflict of interests between the media and transport related entities and it all gets bogged down in mediocrity.

    What conflict of interests? Are you just talking about advertising?


  • #44
    highlydebased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,470 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I spent many years informing journalists only to see their personal and misinformed opinions ending up on the page. That said there were a few who produced good copy, but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor, based on the advice they got in college. Add to that the horrendous conflict of interests between the media and transport related entities and it all gets bogged down in mediocrity.


    Thats very harsh and a sweeping generalisation.

    Have you actually any idea how a newspaper/publication works? Journos would love to have their actual opinion printed but it is to suit the mantra of the paper- thats the way it works. So come down off your high horse! :mad:


  • #45
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Neon-Circles wrote: »
    Thats very harsh and a sweeping generalisation.

    Have you actually any idea how a newspaper/publication works? Journos would love to have their actual opinion printed but it is to suit the mantra of the paper- thats the way it works. So come down off your high horse! :mad:

    Why don't you actually read my post again, because you just contradicted yourself. Remember that I said this;
    but most are just hacks making up **** angles to please an editor,

    For the record...yes I do know in a detailed manner how a newspaper/publication works, hence the reason I referred to editors calling the shots which would suit the "mantra" you refer to.

    Therefore I suggest you climb down from the high horse that my post encouraged you to climb up on.


  • #46
    highlydebased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,470 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    DWCommuter wrote: »

    Therefore I suggest you climb down from the high horse that my post encouraged you to climb up on.

    I'm sorry- but I'm up on no high horse I can assure you. I have no desire to explore how omnicious you appear on everything seemingly- perhaps these journalists had no desire to explore said either! ;):pac:


  • #47
    sdanseo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Neon you kinda just reaffimed what he said if anything - just in a different way. Bottom line is the journos, through will or forced hand, make up random crap and fill gaps according to the mood of the editor.

    Transport articles, in general - and some generalisations have to be made - are pure crap. Any time I read of a new opening of some piece of infrastructure, or some new development, chances are I've heard considerably more information that's much nearer the truth on this forum. They seem to just take the propaganda spewed by, in this case, IE, and alter the words a bit. I haven't seen a totally unbiased, objective analysis of an infrastructure project (as opposed to a simple article telling me what's happening, when and how much under or over budget it is) any time recently short of Kevin Myers' little rant about the N7.


  • #48
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,040 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Two articles in the Irish Times today;

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/3m-cork-railway-station-upgrade-set-to-in-crease-numbers-using-mainline-and-commuter-services-1.2105054

    I am not familiar with Kent Station or the previous redevelopment plans but I think it is fair to say that they have been scaled back a lot, although this is probably for the better.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/planned-upgrade-on-cork-dublin-line-will-cut-travel-time-say-iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-1.2105076

    Any improvements to increase the speed of trains is to be welcomed but this quote is disappointing when read in conjunction with post #19 in this thread;
    Mr Kenny confirmed that a €10 million upgrade of an 80km stretch of mainline track between Portlaoise in Co Laois and Hazelhatch in Co Kildare beginning in March will cut Cork-Dublin travel times by 15 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes.

    Is the KPR2 expected to deliver any significant time savings for intercity and commuter services on their approach to the city?


  • #49
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Some welcome announcements, years late but to be welcomed none the less.


  • #50
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...


  • #51
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

    If we had the money, we could extend the "4 track" Kildare route project into DART underground, and effectively move Heuston to Saint Stephens Green.

    Then (if Metro North was also a 4 track DART) have the Belfast trains serve the Airport before arriving in Stephens Green.


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