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Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

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Comments

  • #212
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Nijmegen wrote: »

    Another big difference between Israel and places like Syria and Iran, who supply terrorists around the globe: Israel is a representative democracy, (.....)

    ...not representative of the people they occupy, however. Hence the problem. And yes, Israel has funded "terrorists" when its suited it too.


  • #213
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Nodin wrote: »
    While I doubt a prearranged massacre was pre-planned, launching such a raid on a ship at night really does show an approach far more heavy than was required.

    In retrospect, when we know that 9+ people have died, it does seem heavyhanded. But what was the alternative to boarding? Amhran Nua mentioned prop foulers. Are there alternative tactics for stopping vessels?


  • #214
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Nodin wrote: »
    Though I claim no expertise, it is noticable that once any unexpected shot goes off, all hell tends to break loose at least momentarily. Add to that darkness, and pre-existing tension amongst the boarding party and its more than possible than 10 would be dead within seconds.

    All thats required for that to happen is a warning shot when none have been authorised, a slip climbing up a stair or on a rolling deck.....boarding craft is reckoned to be an extremely dangerous task at the best of times, or so I've been informed.

    While I doubt a prearranged massacre was pre-planned, launching such a raid on a ship at night really does show an approach far more heavy than was required.

    Tbh Nodin, and you know me long enough her to realise that even given that scenario you've spelled out I'm a little shocked by the body count..

    Tbh, its left me reeling somewhat.


  • #215
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Israel is a representative democracy, and I daresay the Israeli people wouldn't mind if one day they could all get along down there.

    Try being an Arab living in Israel.


  • #216
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    The Isreali government takes all Aid for Gaza itself first and is then supposed to distribute it.

    Okay, but is there any reason not to use these channels?

    I'm just trying to decipher the motivation for those on the flotilla.


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  • #217
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »



    So in a way the flotilla was being provocative, in that they knew they were going to get a response. This kind of thing is hardly uncommon in this day in age, and is a notorious tactic of some groups for getting "positive" PR for themselves.

    Which of course, excuses the response. Don't provoke the bully, he might hit you and you will be to blame. :rolleyes:


  • #218
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    In retrospect, when we know that 9+ people have died, it does seem heavyhanded. But what was the alternative to boarding?

    Not boarding at all, for starters. Certainly boarding at night seems an insane idea. Big warning shot in broad daylight by a coastal vessel....


  • #219
    Euroland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Euroland


    Who gave Israel the right to control Gaza waters?


  • #220
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    In retrospect, when we know that 9+ people have died, it does seem heavyhanded. But what was the alternative to boarding? Amhran Nua mentioned prop foulers. Are there alternative tactics for stopping vessels?

    Do not board in international waters.

    If in Israeli waters, blockade the flotilla approaching. No need for mass killing.


  • #221
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    The spokesman for the Israeli Ministry for Defence said that there are official aid channels that the group could have used instead of going in directly. Is there a truth to this? If so, why didn't this group use those channels?
    The Israeli's offered to let it go in through their ports, where it could be checked to ensure there were no weapons - the entire purpose of the blockade.

    These protestors were looking for a PR victory, for 'suicide by cop.'


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  • #222
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    Euroland wrote: »
    Who gave Israel the right to control Gaza waters?

    Who gave them the right to control International waters?


  • #223
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Okay, but is there any reason not to use these channels?

    I'm just trying to decipher the motivation for those on the flotilla.

    Israel only allows 15,000 tonnes of aid a month through and according to the UN this is about 25% of what is required.


  • #224
    SlabMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭SlabMurphy


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    If the government had any balls they`d send the Israeli ambassador packing.Not going to happen though.
    I'm afraid I have to agree, nothing will hapen, just empty words of condemnation, shock, surprise ( why anyone could be surprised at these disgusting sub humans the Zionists is beyond me ). All just tokenism.

    What gets me is how the rest of the Arab world doesn't take the lead. Just think if the OPEC countries just flexed their muscles like in 1973 when the Yanks had to stop their endless military supplies to the Israeli's forcing a total turn about in the Yom Kippur war.


  • #225
    Fizman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭Fizman


    galwaybabe wrote: »
    If you do one thing today, make it a boycott of Israeli goods. Remember, it was international pressure of the hitting the pocket variety that helped bring down aparteid in SA. Tell the store managers where you shop that you will boycott their stores until they remove Israeli goods.

    Out of interest, what popular products sold in this country would originate from Israel? I'm sure there are plenty, but people may just be unaware. Maybe even form a list??

    Just read this on reuters.....
    Israeli officials said the marines were met with gunfire and knives when they boarded the ships, which included a large ferry flying the Turkish flag. Activists seized at least two pistols from the boarding party, the officials said.

    Ya so Mary the innocent aid worker disarmed an Israeli commando and turned the gun on him. Very interested to see Americas response to this whole thing.


  • #226
    mrsdewinter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭mrsdewinter


    I'm the least political person I know but I feel really angry about this... Is there anything going on this evening? Some way we can voice our protest over this act of state aggression towards civilians?


  • #227
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    According to reports there were 3 Irish on board the Challenger 1 which was one of the 2 ships boarded.


  • #228
    SlabMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭SlabMurphy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Not boarding at all, for starters. Certainly boarding at night seems an insane idea. Big warning shot in broad daylight by a coastal vessel....
    They should have said their was a gas leak on board the ships to keep the Israeli macho men away. They always get petrified looking when you mention the word gas.


  • #229
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Deep Easterly wrote: »
    Which of course, excuses the response. Don't provoke the bully, he might hit you and you will be to blame. :rolleyes:

    Where did I say that it justified the response? I'd like you to answer this or withdraw that comment, cheers.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Not boarding at all, for starters. Certainly boarding at night seems an insane idea. Big warning shot in broad daylight by a coastal vessel....

    But wasn't the point of the boarding to stop their imminent passage of the blockade, so that waiting until the next morning wasn't an option? It's a very confusing situation.
    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    Israel only allows 15,000 tonnes of aid a month through and according to the UN this is about 25% of what is required.

    Well if that's the case then sending an unauthorized flotilla sounds appropriate. There's a lot of complex factors at play here, really.


  • #230
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Fizman wrote: »
    Out of interest, what popular products sold in this country would originate from Israel? I'm sure there are plenty, but people may just be unaware. Maybe even form a list??

    Just read this on reuters.....



    Ya so Mary the innocent aid worker disarmed an Israeli commando and turned the gun on him. Very interested to see Americas response to this whole thing.

    A lot of fruit and veg in your supermarket comes from Israel, potatoes etc.


  • #231
    SlabMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭SlabMurphy


    mrsdewinter wrote: »
    I'm the least political person I know but I feel really angry about this... Is there anything going on this evening? Some way we can voice our protest over this act of state aggression towards civilians?
    Protest the Flotilla Murders! March to the Israeli Embassy!

    Date(s): 31 May 2010

    Time(s): 6:00PM

    Area: Dublin

    Venue: The Spire, O'Connell St
    The Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called a protest for this evening at 6pm, assembling at the Spire on O’Connell Street, Dublin 1 which will then march to the Israeli Embassy in Ballsbridge.

    Speakers at the event will be Aengus O Snodaigh TD and Chris Andrews TD, both of whom were refused access to the flotilla by the Cypriot authorities after coming under severe pressure from Israel. The IPSC is calling on people in Ireland to show their outrage at this murderous attack against unarmed solidarity activists by coming out on the streets today.

    http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/ipsc/displayEvent.php?eventID=865

    http://www.ipsc.ie/


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  • #232
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    mrsdewinter wrote: »
    I'm the least political person I know but I feel really angry about this... Is there anything going on this evening? Some way we can voice our protest over this act of state aggression towards civilians?

    The Ireland Palestine Campaign is organising a solidarity demonstration in Dublin this evening at 6pm.

    http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/ipsc/displayEvent.php?eventID=865


  • #233
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »
    Its hard getting at these facts in a thread like this because of the usual reactionary clap trap thrown out by some.

    Let you be reminded again. IDF slaughered innocent humanitarian aid workers. And you call a few posts on a chat forum 'reactionary clap trap" ?

    LOL :D


  • #234
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    The spokesman for the Israeli Ministry for Defence said that there are official aid channels that the group could have used instead of going in directly. Is there a truth to this?
    yes of course.

    israel does allow in aid through the proper channels, once it is checked

    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    If so, why didn't this group use those channels?

    ( 1 ) arms smuggling.....did you never hear of or see pictures of the numerous arms smuggling tunnels the arabs use,

    ( 2 ) propoganda


  • #235
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    The people on the ships managed to get footage out supporting their allegation that the Israeli soldiers attacked them, despite the attempts to block communications from the ships.

    The Israeli soldiers were accompanied by journalists - none of their footage/eye-witness accounts have been released.

    Do you not think that if they had any evidence to support their stories about the aid workers attacking them/grabbing their weapons, that they would use it immediately?


  • #236
    Ardennes1944
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭Ardennes1944


    went to sachsenhausen concentration camp two years ago and there happened to be a remembrance service for the jews that died in the holocaust. i cant say it didnt make me very angry. so much sympathy was rightly given to the jews after the nazi regime but now the jews are ultimately trying to wipe out any remaining structure left in palestine. they wont leave practically any resources in, and what happened in the early hours of today is just one higher profile example. i just despise the jews(nice way of saying hate!) as they are doing to the palestinians what was done to them, all be it in a smaller scale. you think they would know best out of anyone what long term suffering feels like. im not saying the holocaust was ok by a long shot but i have NO sympathy for the jews that died as a result of the israeli's behaviour. double standards anyone?


  • #237
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    In retrospect, when we know that 9+ people have died, it does seem heavyhanded. But what was the alternative to boarding? Amhran Nua mentioned prop foulers. Are there alternative tactics for stopping vessels?

    The alternative was to let the ships into Gaza as they have no moral or legal right to prevent aid reaching the people there in the first place.


  • #238
    ghostdancer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,539 ✭✭✭ghostdancer


    k_mac wrote: »
    I thought the Israelis claimed they boarded the ship after they were attacked by gunfire.

    yep, those aid workers, including a Nobel Peace Prize winner, who set sail under a high level of scrutiny, with guns ready to attack the IDF.


  • #239
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,311 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SlabMurphy wrote: »
    They should have said their was a gas leak on board the ships to keep the Israeli macho men away. They always get petrified looking when you mention the word gas.

    idiot.


  • #240
    eoinbn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 887 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    Fizman wrote: »
    Out of interest, what popular products sold in this country would originate from Israel? I'm sure there are plenty, but people may just be unaware. Maybe even form a list??

    The Intel processor that most of us are using to access this info! It was certainly designed there and more than likely built there.

    Need more info on this.


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  • #241
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Japer wrote: »
    yes of course.

    israel does allow in aid through the proper channels, once it is checked

    Isreal has what right to 'check' what the Palestinians import or recieve in aid?


    Japer wrote: »
    ( 1 ) arms smuggling.....did you never hear of or see pictures of the numerous arms smuggling tunnels the arabs use,

    ( 2 ) propoganda

    Lets be very clear, are you alleging that there were weapons on board these aid ships?


This discussion has been closed.
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