Sick of people saying smokers and drinkers are costing the state to much

tiocimarla · 29-05-2010 11:22AM #1

Is it just me or does anybody else get really annoyed when politicians and groups like ASH give their view on this subject. To me it is scandalous that they constantly state that smoking and alchohol related illnesses are costing the state enormous figures.

I mean, a box of smokes costs €8.40 of which the Government takes around €6.70 of that in excise duty and VAT.

Also the price of a Pint on average in dublin costs over €5.00 of which the Government takes 21% of that in excise duty and VAT.

Now what if the average smoker would smoke about 20 a day and have 8 pints a week. How much tax are they paying in their lifetime. Lets say for arrguments sake that their cumsumption lifetime averages 40 years. This would leave the figure for paid tax at.

Cigarettes: €139,360
Tax: €15,288
Total: €154,648

Now after looking at these figures I believe that the Government and lobbying groups have some neck in saying that smokers and drinkers are a burden on the system. In fact they pay more to our Government over the coarse of their lives. These figures dont even include the tax they pay on their income but that alone of which they pay in tax for alchohol and tobacco.

In fact first class rooms with a personal Jester should be provided for these people for the amount of money they pump into the system in their lives.

Groups like ASH Ireland said price was the largest factor in getting people to quit. What is it their right to say what other people do and how they live their lives. It is in my view that willpower is the largest factor in getting people to quit and thats if they choose to, its their body and they can choose to do what they want with it.

I started this thread as i was arguing with a friend "in the pub" last weekend while "having a smoke" and he was throwing his views at me trying to solve the problems of the world. He was so adamant we are a burden on the health system and wouldnt back down that I decided to do my homework and as you can see its pretty shocking.

If you are a smoker and you take nothing from this then at least the next time you get the anti-smoker pouring his opinion down your throat just remember the figures that are involved here and put them to sleep.

Id also like to see what everyone elses view on this issue is. Is the Government just using this burden crap to cover up their incompetence as a ruling body. All opinions are welcome here even that of the smug X-smoker

Wagon · 29-05-2010 11:27AM

This thread 20 pages in will be reduced to about 6 people arguing over the rights and wrongs and people will be banned for saying the bad things and people will stop being friends.

I hope you're happy OP, you've opened a bag of worms and ruined AH. You made me cry! bastard! :pac:

That said, i agree with you.

MagicMarker · 29-05-2010 11:28AM

You've only done half your homework.

How much the does it cost to treat smoking & drinking related illnesses in this country?

TheZohanS · 29-05-2010 11:32AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

You've only done half your homework.

How much the does it cost to treat smoking & drinking related illnesses in this country?

About two-fiddy.

Well done Chucky, good OP.

Biggins · 29-05-2010 11:33AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

You've only done half your homework.

How much the does it cost to treat smoking & drinking related illnesses in this country?

Blood tests
Mri scans
x-ray scans
Specialist doctors
Other medical equipment needed (including breathing equipment)
Admin/staff nurse time
State sick pay benefits! (where all is paying because of a cancer stick)
Long term after-care
And so on....

tiocimarla · 29-05-2010 11:37AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

You've only done half your homework.

How much the does it cost to treat smoking & drinking related illnesses in this country?

Yes true and I havnt the time now but I will update it when i do. Remember also that only a percentage of these people become ill through their habits and some get treated privatly, some abroad and some dont recieve any treatment at all so there is no way it could cost that much for treatment. Lets say for now that 1 in 3 gets ill because if their lifelong habits, that would still mean there is €463,944 in revenue to that 1 in 3. But as I say this is not Fact and I will try and get figures later.:)

jiltloop · 29-05-2010 11:37AM

The biggest burden in this country are the generations and generations of families who live on social welfare, get social housing etc etc. Of course there are lots of people out there who use the state when they genuinely need it but there is a section of people out there who leech off tax payers habitually, who couldn't be bothered contributing anything and raise their kids to do the same. Plus there would be a large criminal element arising from this section of people who are an even bigger burden.
That bothers me more than people who drink or smoke.

kippy · 29-05-2010 11:39AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Is it just me or does anybody else get really annoyed when politicians and groups like ASH give their view on this subject. To me it is scandalous that they constantly state that smoking and alchohol related illnesses are costing the state enormous figures.

I mean, a box of smokes costs €8.40 of which the Government takes around €6.70 of that in excise duty and VAT.

Also the price of a Pint on average in dublin costs over €5.00 of which the Government takes 21% of that in excise duty and VAT.

Now what if the average smoker would smoke about 20 a day and have 8 pints a week. How much tax are they paying in their lifetime. Lets say for arrguments sake that their cumsumption lifetime averages 40 years. This would leave the figure for paid tax at.

Cigarettes: €139,360
Tax: €15,288
Total: €154,648

Now after looking at these figures I believe that the Government and lobbying groups have some neck in saying that smokers and drinkers are a burden on the system. In fact they pay more to our Government over the coarse of their lives. These figures dont even include the tax they pay on their income but that alone of which they pay in tax for alchohol and tobacco.

In fact first class rooms with a personal Jester should be provided for these people for the amount of money they pump into the system in their lives.

Groups like ASH Ireland said price was the largest factor in getting people to quit. What is it their right to say what other people do and how they live their lives. It is in my view that willpower is the largest factor in getting people to quit and thats if they choose to, its their body and they can choose to do what they want with it.

I started this thread as i was arguing with a friend "in the pub" last weekend while "having a smoke" and he was throwing his views at me trying to solve the problems of the world. He was so adamant we are a burden on the health system and wouldnt back down that I decided to do my homework and as you can see its pretty shocking.

If you are a smoker and you take nothing from this then at least the next time you get the anti-smoker pouring his opinion down your throat just remember the figures that are involved here and put them to sleep.

Id also like to see what everyone elses view on this issue is. Is the Government just using this burden crap to cover up their incompetence as a ruling body. All opinions are welcome here even that of the smug X-smoker

I notice you havent done the approximate health care costs associated with heavy smoking/drinking........
Like an income expenditure account for the state from one smoker/drinker using the same figures you have.
Also what life time are you giving to that smoker as that would have an impact on the income for the state for that person.

29-05-2010 11:39AM

Biggins wrote: »

Blood tests
Mri scans
x-ray scans
Specialist doctors
Other medical equipment needed (including breathing equipment)
Admin/staff nurse time
State sick pay benefits! (where all is paying because of a cancer stick)
Long term after-care
And so on....

Holy ****! Look at all the people we are responsible for employing!

I cant quit now

Nodin · 29-05-2010 11:40AM

...biggest drain on the state sat on the Boards of Directors of Financial institutions. And yes, I can fucking prove it, thanks.

TheZohanS · 29-05-2010 11:42AM

[quote=[Deleted User];66126424]Holy ****! Look at all the people we are responsible for employing!

I cant quit now[/QUOTE]

Yeah but that's only if we get sick...if we don't get sick all teh money goes on building roads, childrens allowance and helping those that lost der jebs.

Biggins · 29-05-2010 11:44AM

[quote=[Deleted User];66126424]Holy ****! Look at all the people we are responsible for employing!

I cant quit now[/QUOTE]
Questionable to see that your willing to gamble on an earlier death then, just to keep people employed then?
I'd prefer that you give up, stay healthier and able to stay (as such) on the boards longer to debate.

omahaid · 29-05-2010 11:44AM

Normally I'd be saying "feckin smokers and drinkers, draining society" but ya, there are a few "institutions" that have cost the taxpayer a lot more and we have received a lot less in benefit. So, my point is, feckin bankers!!!!!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2390/2100288041_7dcb8d1449.jpg

Dravokivich · 29-05-2010 11:45AM

Sorry lads... extended recession was actually my fault... Started smoking and drinking a lot less...

Riamfada · 29-05-2010 11:45AM

The only reason smokes are still legal is the fact that the tax generated from the sale of this mind altering cancer causing addictive substance is massive.

I smoke and I wish they were illegal. Then I could quit.

drkpower · 29-05-2010 11:47AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Is it just me or does anybody else get really annoyed when politicians and groups like ASH give their view on this subject. To me it is scandalous that they constantly state that smoking and alchohol related illnesses are costing the state enormous figures

What's your point, OP?
Smokers/drinkers shouldnt pay as much tax or are you just upset that someone is bad-mouthing you?

kippy · 29-05-2010 11:47AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Yes true and I havnt the time now but I will update it when i do. Remember also that only a percentage of these people become ill through their habits and some get treated privatly, some abroad and some dont recieve any treatment at all so there is no way it could cost that much for treatment. Lets say for now that 1 in 3 gets ill because if their lifelong habits, that would still mean there is €463,944 in revenue to that 1 in 3. But as I say this is not Fact and I will try and get figures later.:)

There is "no way" it would cost that much for treatment?
Thats a pretty big assumption to make based on the figures you've used and without knowing the costs associated with lung cancer and other health effects of smoking/drinking.

In fairness to you 8 pints a week isnt a heavy drinking habit but 20 a day is relatively high nowadays.
I read an article recently which stated that 60% of the US healthcare funding was spent on treating Smoking/Alcohol related ailments.

tommy21 · 29-05-2010 11:48AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Is it just me or does anybody else get really annoyed when politicians and groups like ASH give their view on this subject. To me it is scandalous that they constantly state that smoking and alchohol related illnesses are costing the state enormous figures.

I mean, a box of smokes costs €8.40 of which the Government takes around €6.70 of that in excise duty and VAT.

Also the price of a Pint on average in dublin costs over €5.00 of which the Government takes 21% of that in excise duty and VAT.

Now what if the average smoker would smoke about 20 a day and have 8 pints a week. How much tax are they paying in their lifetime. Lets say for arrguments sake that their cumsumption lifetime averages 40 years. This would leave the figure for paid tax at.

Cigarettes: €139,360
Tax: €15,288
Total: €154,648

Now after looking at these figures I believe that the Government and lobbying groups have some neck in saying that smokers and drinkers are a burden on the system. In fact they pay more to our Government over the coarse of their lives. These figures dont even include the tax they pay on their income but that alone of which they pay in tax for alchohol and tobacco.

In fact first class rooms with a personal Jester should be provided for these people for the amount of money they pump into the system in their lives.

Groups like ASH Ireland said price was the largest factor in getting people to quit. What is it their right to say what other people do and how they live their lives. It is in my view that willpower is the largest factor in getting people to quit and thats if they choose to, its their body and they can choose to do what they want with it.

I started this thread as i was arguing with a friend "in the pub" last weekend while "having a smoke" and he was throwing his views at me trying to solve the problems of the world. He was so adamant we are a burden on the health system and wouldnt back down that I decided to do my homework and as you can see its pretty shocking.

If you are a smoker and you take nothing from this then at least the next time you get the anti-smoker pouring his opinion down your throat just remember the figures that are involved here and put them to sleep.

Id also like to see what everyone elses view on this issue is. Is the Government just using this burden crap to cover up their incompetence as a ruling body. All opinions are welcome here even that of the smug X-smoker

Long-version: But you didn't do your homework at all. In fact you just ignored "your friend", discounting his views without even looking at the statistics. Look at the direct costs of alcohol - a 92% increase in alcohol related hospital admissions between 1995 and 2002. Alcohol had a role in 28% of all accident and emergency injury admissions in 2005, with 64% of individuals admitting they would not be there if they had not been drinking. Alcohol-related intentional injuries saw an 85% rise between 1995 and 2003. These are fairly old statistics but if anything all these figures have since risen. These don't account for the indirect costs - harm to innocent bystanders via drunken assaults, damage to family and personal relationships, road traffic accidents, risky sexual behaviour leading to a rise in STDs, legal implications and a subsequent burden on the legal system amongst many others.

For smoking - more than 7000 die thanks to smoking each year. Now if they want to do so at home or on their own time then so be it. But these 7000 and the many thousands more who become ill and either recover or last a number of years don't do that. They go to the GPs and the hospitals and avail of the services as is their right, but this doesn't mean they are not a burden. Cardiovascular disease is probably one of the biggest strains brought on by smoking and excessive drinking, along with COPD, various cancers and many others. Our unhealthy lifestlyes in combination with years of resource mismanagement by incompetent subsequent governments have left the health service in the mess it is in.

While I may be an ex-smoker, I am far from smug (one year and three months free, couldn't resist

). If you want to smoke, then that is your choice and I applaude that. But to believe that smoking and drinking are not a huge drain across the board is foolhardy - that is what is scandalous here!

Short-version: It is just you.

tiocimarla · 29-05-2010 11:51AM

[QUOTE=kippy;66126423
Also what life time are you giving to that smoker as that would have an impact on the income for the state for that person.[/QUOTE]

Im giving 40 years give or take for arguments sake. Also Smokers die younger and many dont see their pensions. Extra state income in some cases where no family or will has been made. Also those with state pensions that die young save the state money.

Sea Sharp · 29-05-2010 11:52AM

Yeah screw that. Even as a poor, tax dodging student I've probably paid my NAMA bill in the form of tax on cigarettes.

tommy21 · 29-05-2010 11:52AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Yes true and I havnt the time now but I will update it when i do. Remember also that only a percentage of these people become ill through their habits and some get treated privatly, some abroad and some dont recieve any treatment at all so there is no way it could cost that much for treatment. Lets say for now that 1 in 3 gets ill because if their lifelong habits, that would still mean there is €463,944 in revenue to that 1 in 3. But as I say this is not Fact and I will try and get figures later.:)

Private care doesn't cost nor does going abroad? Some get no treatment? So if they die is this not a cost? "Let's just say for now..." I hope your not an economist or working in the health sector!

javaboy · 29-05-2010 11:52AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Lets say for now that 1 in 3 gets ill because if their lifelong habits, that would still mean there is €463,944 in revenue to that 1 in 3. But as I say this is not Fact and I will try and get figures later.:)

The much touted 1 in 3 figure is for the general population. I imagine it's higher for regular smokers and drinkers. And you might be surprised how little that 150 to 450 thousand actually covers when specialists and consultants enter the equation.

Collie D · 29-05-2010 11:53AM

Regardless of whether smokers and drinkers (of which I am both) pay their way through excises etc, I am more annoyed at non-smokers taking over our beer gardens during the summer. Feck off back inside

Nodin · 29-05-2010 11:53AM

Grimes wrote: »

The only reason smokes are still legal is the fact that the tax generated from the sale of this mind altering cancer causing addictive substance is massive.

I smoke and I wish they were illegal. Then I could quit.

No, because then there'd be the buzz of getting your illegal nicotine fix....

tommy21 · 29-05-2010 11:54AM

tiocimarla wrote: »

Im giving 40 years give or take for arguments sake. Also Smokers die younger and many dont see their pensions. Extra state income in some cases where no family or will has been made. Also those with state pensions that die young save the state money.

What about the cost to the future econmy due to premature deaths in terms of what otherwise would have been produced by the individual? What about absenteeism?

On a lighter

note - will somebody please think of the children?

Biggins · 29-05-2010 11:58AM

[quote=[Deleted User];66126424]Holy ****! Look at all the people we are responsible for employing!

I cant quit now[/QUOTE]

O' and while I think of it.
Look at all the time your taking up, the resources you've wasted, the drugs you might be swallowing, etc...
...and all because of something you inflicted on yourself (but we all end up paying for too).

Whereas the person that is sick due to NO fault of their own, with a non self-inflicted illness, is shoved back further down the waiting list queue because your calling through your cancer coughs for faster treatment quick before you die, from the bed space your taking up!

tiocimarla · 29-05-2010 12:01PM

tommy21 wrote: »

Private care doesn't cost nor does going abroad? Some get no treatment? So if they die is this not a cost? "Let's just say for now..." I hope your not an economist or working in the health sector!

Ok I have only done half my homework on this, but it would take a long time to get real figures from the health system and tot them up and no I will stick to carpentry I agree I would make a terrible economist but what ive stated in the OP is accurate.

dlofnep · 29-05-2010 12:02PM

Grimes wrote: »

The only reason smokes are still legal is the fact that the tax generated from the sale of this mind altering cancer causing addictive substance is massive.

I smoke and I wish they were illegal. Then I could quit.

I quit when the smoking ban came in. Prices were going up drastically, and it seemed pointless to have to stand outside in the cold to smoke (this is long before they started creating custom smoking areas in pubs). Seemed like an opportune time to quit. 6 years on, and dlofnep is still smoke free!

How much are a pack of smokes nowadays anyways? I remember buying 10 smokes for 1.24, and a box of matches were 6P. If you have 1.50, you'd still have change for a touchdown bar, and a packet of chickatees! (or a bottle of score orange). Think 20 smokes was like 5.50 or around that when I quit. Can't remember.

A Primal Nut · 29-05-2010 12:03PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

You've only done half your homework.

How much the does it cost to treat smoking & drinking related illnesses in this country?

Nothing if they have private insurance like everyone should have.

Nodin · 29-05-2010 12:04PM

I remember 62p for 10 Major.........

Biggins · 29-05-2010 12:05PM

dlofnep wrote: »

...I remember buying 10 smokes for 1.24, and a box of matches were 6P. If you have 1.50, you'd still have change for a touchdown bar, and a packet of chickatees! (or a bottle of score orange)...

I know its off topic but I remember that awful Score orange stuff.
Watery cheap stuff indeed. That was years and years ago. Gawd I getting old!

Sick of people saying smokers and drinkers are costing the state to much

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