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Nine charged with irish teenagers death

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    This shocking TV3 documentary will look at the tragedy of Phoebe Prince, a 15 year old girl from Co. Clare who moved to America last September with her family. By January 14th this year, after months of bullying at the hands of schoolmates, Phoebe was found hanging in her new home. The film examines the continuous harassment that led to her death and the authorities that stood by as she was harassed. Her suicide has caused widespread grief, anger, changes in the law and has led to the biggest bullying case in American history. TV3 speak to Boston Globe Journalist Kevin Cullen, who raised the issue of the bullies going unpunished and New York based court correspondent Jean Caseraz, as she follows the trail of 'The untouchable mean girls'. This frank film precedes the new series of the not-so-frank Tudors at 10.00pm.
    http://entertainment.ie/TV/tv-highlight.asp?hid=43315


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 647 ✭✭✭DingChavez


    It's very sad but part of me can't help but think that this is only getting so much press because a.it happened in america, b.another way to try make social networking look bad. When I was in first year one of my friends was getting bullied (we didn't know) and he killed himself (same method as phoebe, hanging) and no papers printed anything. Not that it should have been, his family were happy it wasn't splashed all over. But this kind of thing has been happening for a long time.

    It is very sad though. Have any of the teachers who knew it was going on released statements?

    Its so big because its a good story for the American media. Attractive white foreigner tries to experience the "American Dream". Gets bullied by rich girls who later go to the prom and laugh off her death. Thus highlighting the problems with America.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    The film Carrie springs to mind for some reason. Some striking similarities there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I would think the teachers are under orders to say nothing because of the case. But school is pleading ignorance for the most part even though it has been proved they knew plenty
    In fairness its an ongoing case. The more public a case is the more likely a mis-trial is to occur; due most in part to the Jury, who through public knowledge can easily form a preconception of the case from the court of public opinion, before sitting down to examine the evidence in the court of law.
    Im Q wrote: »
    Anybody that treats another human being so badly, not once but regularly deserves to have their legs chopped off. I would love to bully the lot of them with a baseball bat for a week. They just spread the same out over a longer period.
    I'm sure theres a nice Third World Country out there somewhere for both you and your perverted sense of justice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Little Acorn


    There's a 1 hour programme on tv3 right now all about this case.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 249 ✭✭MardiB


    There is a documentary on tv3 about it at the moment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 249 ✭✭MardiB


    There's a 1 hour programme on tv3 right now all about this case.


    Snap


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Amazing it took pressure from the high school students themselves to bring these people to justice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    This the story mentioned in the doc. Watch out for the text in bold. Hopefully justice will be served.
    The untouchable Mean Girls

    By Kevin Cullen, Globe Columnist | January 24, 2010

    Like a lot of kids her age, Phoebe Prince was a swan, always beautiful and sometimes awkward.

    Last fall, she moved from Ireland into western Massachusetts, a new town, a new high school, a new country, a new culture. She was 15, when all that matters is being liked and wearing the right clothes and just fitting in.

    She was a freshman and she had a brief fling with a senior, a football player, and for this she became the target of the Mean Girls, who decided then and there that Phoebe didn’t know her place and that Phoebe would pay.

    Kids can be mean, but the Mean Girls took it to another level, according to students and parents. They followed Phoebe around, calling her a slut. When they wanted to be more specific, they called her an Irish slut.

    The name-calling, the stalking, the intimidation was relentless.

    Ten days ago, Phoebe was walking home from school when one of the Mean Girls drove by in a car. An insult and an energy drink can came flying out the car window in Phoebe’s direction.

    Phoebe kept walking, past the abuse, past the can, past the white picket fence, into her house. Then she walked into a closet and hanged herself. Her 12-year-old sister found her.

    You would think this would give the bullies who hounded Phoebe some pause. Instead, they went on Facebook and mocked her in death.

    They told State Police detectives they did nothing wrong, had nothing to do with Phoebe killing herself.

    And then they went right back to school and started badmouthing Phoebe.

    They had a dance, a cotillion, at the Log Cabin in Holyoke two days after Phoebe’s sister found her in the closet, and some who were there say one of the Mean Girls bragged about how she played dumb with the detectives who questioned her.

    Last week, one of the Springfield TV stations sent a crew to South Hadley High to talk to the kids.

    One girl was interviewed on camera, and she said what was common knowledge: that bullies were stalking the corridors of South Hadley High.

    As soon as the TV crew was out of sight, one of the Mean Girls came up and slammed the girl who had been interviewed against a locker and punched her in the head.

    The Mean Girls are pretty, and popular, and play sports.

    So far, they appear to be untouchable, too.

    South Hadley is a nice, comfortable middle-class suburb that hugs the Connecticut River nearby and a certain attitude.

    “Things like this aren’t supposed to happen in South Hadley,’’ said Darby O’Brien, a high school parent, wondering why the bullies who tormented Phoebe are still in school. “And so instead of confronting the evil among us, the reality that there are bullies roaming the corridors at South Hadley High, people are blaming the victim, looking for excuses why a 15-year-old girl would do this. People are in denial.’’

    School officials say there are three investigations going on. They say these things take time.

    That doesn’t explain why the Mean Girls who tortured Phoebe remain in school, defiant, unscathed.

    “What kind of message does this send to the good kids?’’ O’Brien asked. “How many kids haven’t come forward to tell what they know because they see the bullies walking around untouched?’’

    They were supposed to hold a big meeting on Tuesday to talk about all this, but now that’s off for a couple of weeks.

    O’Brien is thinking about going to that meeting and suggesting that they have the kids who bullied Phoebe look at the autopsy photos.

    “Let them see what a kid who hung herself looks like,’’ he said.

    Last week, Phoebe was supposed to visit Ireland, where she grew up, and she was excited because she was going to see her father for the first time in months.

    She did end up going back to Ireland after all, and when her father saw her she was in a casket.

    Phoebe’s family decided to bury her in County Clare. They wanted an ocean between her and the people who hounded her to the grave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 348 ✭✭Drake66


    They seem like insufferable wretches. Hopefully they receive the swift and robust justice that they deserve.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭indough


    One girl was interviewed on camera, and she said what was common knowledge: that bullies were stalking the corridors of South Hadley High.

    same as every school then


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    indough wrote: »
    same as every school then
    But bullying was prevalent in that school


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    Kirnsy wrote: »
    Anyone else find it horribly ironic that the lad who is charged with bullying about her being Irish is called Sean?

    I'm a first generation Irish American who grew up in New England since age 10. Don't be nieve about Irish Americans in New England. Just last year I worked with an Irish American lady in New Hampshire (I think 3rd generation) who literally had to be called off me. The manager had to call this dog off of me, from verbal bullying, it was vile. Irish Americans can be horrific bullies to each other. I certainly don't seek them out as friends, I'll tell you that!
    I have no idea how bullying is in other places. Growing up in Nova Scota until age 10, I can say I never saw it as bad as I saw it here in New England. People say it exists everywhere, so there must be some truth to that.
    I know here in New England it's bad. The most vulnerable children are selected, poor children, children of alcoholics, children being abused at home. They are verbally abused daily, they are stalked as they walk home. They are stalked and verbally abused right up to the door. As a child I chose my friends out of survival, NOT based on who I liked, but based on who I needed to be friends with so that I would not be bullied. The pro of this is that I only received light bullying outside of the home, the con is I did not have true friends, or nice friends who I would want to remain in contact with. However, that is what I had to do anyway to survive, since I was being bullied and abused at home, so if it happened outside the home too, I might not be here today. Is it this bad elsewhere, in Ireland, England, Tennessee? That's what people tell me. All I can say is that it is bad in New England. There's a survival of the fittest mentality here that is used as a justification for a lot of things. All this talk recently of not tolerating bullies, this is all very new.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Vourney wrote: »
    I'm a first generation Irish American who grew up in New England since age 10. Don't be nieve about Irish Americans in New England. Just last year I worked with an Irish American lady in New Hampshire (I think 3rd generation) who literally had to be called off me. The manager had to call this dog off of me, from verbal bullying, it was vile. Irish Americans can be horrific bullies to each other. I certainly don't seek them out as friends, I'll tell you that!
    I have no idea how bullying is in other places. Growing up in Nova Scota until age 10, I can say I never saw it as bad as I saw it here in New England. People say it exists everywhere, so there must be some truth to that.
    I know here in New England it's bad. The most vulnerable children are selected, poor children, children of alcoholics, children being abused at home. They are verbally abused daily, they are stalked as they walk home. They are stalked and verbally abused right up to the door. As a child I chose my friends out of survival, NOT based on who I liked, but based on who I needed to be friends with so that I would not be bullied. The pro of this is that I only received light bullying outside of the home, the con is I did not have true friends, or nice friends who I would want to remain in contact with. However, that is what I had to do anyway to survive, since I was being bullied and abused at home, so if it happened outside the home too, I might not be here today. Is it this bad elsewhere, in Ireland, England, Tennessee? That's what people tell me. All I can say is that it is bad in New England. There's a survival of the fittest mentality here that is used as a justification for a lot of things. All this talk recently of not tolerating bullies, this is all very new.
    Saw the documentary and one point that was made is that she dated two of the popular guys that had broken up with two of the "Untounchable mean girls"
    What I found very refreshing is how students of the school stood up to them afterwards and said it was unacceptable what you did.
    I hope that there is justice in the end and that the school in some way is held accountable for standing idly by during this.
    End of the day a fifteen year old girl hung herself and the sister who discovered her will have to live with that.
    To this day I get angry when I think of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    It was and is an awful tragedy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    Vourney wrote: »
    I'm a first generation Irish American who grew up in New England since age 10. Don't be nieve about Irish Americans in New England. Just last year I worked with an Irish American lady in New Hampshire (I think 3rd generation) who literally had to be called off me. The manager had to call this dog off of me, from verbal bullying, it was vile. Irish Americans can be horrific bullies to each other. I certainly don't seek them out as friends, I'll tell you that!
    I have no idea how bullying is in other places. Growing up in Nova Scota until age 10, I can say I never saw it as bad as I saw it here in New England. People say it exists everywhere, so there must be some truth to that.
    I know here in New England it's bad. The most vulnerable children are selected, poor children, children of alcoholics, children being abused at home. They are verbally abused daily, they are stalked as they walk home. They are stalked and verbally abused right up to the door. As a child I chose my friends out of survival, NOT based on who I liked, but based on who I needed to be friends with so that I would not be bullied. The pro of this is that I only received light bullying outside of the home, the con is I did not have true friends, or nice friends who I would want to remain in contact with. However, that is what I had to do anyway to survive, since I was being bullied and abused at home, so if it happened outside the home too, I might not be here today. Is it this bad elsewhere, in Ireland, England, Tennessee? That's what people tell me. All I can say is that it is bad in New England. There's a survival of the fittest mentality here that is used as a justification for a lot of things. All this talk recently of not tolerating bullies, this is all very new.


    What you have to understand is empathy and regret. I can't speak for these girls but 19 times out of 20 a pack are stronger and more vicious than the individual they are targeting. As a young boy in school, at the tender age of 13, I attached myself to a clique and that often involved tormenting the "outsider" or weakling. Once I was challenged by a 15 year old. I (when I was on my own) tried to talk my way out of the fight until it came to a head and there was no escape. After a mob of local kids had surrounded the scene and I was too paralysed by fear as a result of the chants of "chicken" or "take him, Johnny", I received two, maybe, three punches to the face. They were nothing that any kid who had fallen off a bicycle hadn't experienced before......then I just launched at this lad and within maybe four seconds his blood was all over my knuckles. I had hospitalised him in 20 seconds.....just concussion. My father, ran through the front garden and swore like a trooper but the fight was over as quick as it started.
    He looked at me like I was not only an animal. but an animal infected with some disease.

    I've never been in a fight since. But I regret every moment of those moments when I battered someone. It was horrible. You can say "ah, well, you did the the right thing.....he would have picked on you for a few more years".....don't care....I became a savage in seconds and had to look his Ma in the eye for the next decade.

    These girls who picked on and bullyed this girl don't have that luxury but their actions are as savage as mine were.

    A day doesn't go by that I don't think about when I humiliated that kid by beating the crap of him in seconds in front of his "friends" .... friends who would abandon him in the coming months and years.

    The sickest thing was that I was being patted on the back by his classmates as he lay in hospital with broken teeth and a shattered nose.

    He started the fight but people revelled in his pain, long after his defeat.


    And that is what empathy is.
    I really hurt someone, years ago and I wish I didn't. These girls should at least recognise their power over someone whose life they can destroy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    What you have to understand is empathy and regret. I can't speak for these girls but 19 times out of 20 a pack are stronger and more vicious than the individual they are targeting. As a young boy in school, at the tender age of 13, I attached myself to a clique and that often involved tormenting the "outsider" or weakling. Once I was challenged by a 15 year old. I (when I was on my own) tried to talk my way out of the fight until it came to a head and there was no escape. After a mob of local kids had surrounded the scene and I was too paralysed by fear as a result of the chants of "chicken" or "take him, Johnny", I received two, maybe, three punches to the face. They were nothing that any kid who had fallen off a bicycle hadn't experienced before......then I just launched at this lad and within maybe four seconds his blood was all over my knuckles. I had hospitalised him in 20 seconds.....just concussion. My father, ran through the front garden and swore like a trooper but the fight was over as quick as it started.
    He looked at me like I was not only an animal. but an animal infected with some disease.

    I've never been in a fight since. But I regret every moment of those moments when I battered someone. It was horrible. You can say "ah, well, you did the the right thing.....he would have picked on you for a few more years".....don't care....I became a savage in seconds and had to look his Ma in the eye for the next decade.

    These girls who picked on and bullyed this girl don't have that luxury but their actions are as savage as mine were.

    A day doesn't go by that I don't think about when I humiliated that kid by beating the crap of him in seconds in front of his "friends" .... friends who would abandon him in the coming months and years.

    The sickest thing was that I was being patted on the back by his classmates as he lay in hospital with broken teeth and a shattered nose.

    He started the fight but people revelled in his pain, long after his defeat.


    And that is what empathy is.
    I really hurt someone, years ago and I wish I didn't. These girls should at least recognise their power over someone whose life they can destroy.
    To be fair you let yourself go in the moment and the fact that you felt bad about it is a good sign.
    What these girls and the two young men though was far far worse. This was slow torment of a girl over a period of months.
    That they didnt have an ounce of remorse even after Phoebe died is the worst thing of all.
    They would be still in that school if it had not been for the actions fo the students who drove them out by turning the tables on them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭Seifer


    Vourney wrote: »
    I'm a first generation Irish American who grew up in New England since age 10. Don't be nieve about Irish Americans in New England. Just last year I worked with an Irish American lady in New Hampshire (I think 3rd generation) who literally had to be called off me. The manager had to call this dog off of me, from verbal bullying, it was vile. Irish Americans can be horrific bullies to each other. I certainly don't seek them out as friends, I'll tell you that!
    I have no idea how bullying is in other places. Growing up in Nova Scota until age 10, I can say I never saw it as bad as I saw it here in New England. People say it exists everywhere, so there must be some truth to that.
    I know here in New England it's bad. The most vulnerable children are selected, poor children, children of alcoholics, children being abused at home. They are verbally abused daily, they are stalked as they walk home. They are stalked and verbally abused right up to the door. As a child I chose my friends out of survival, NOT based on who I liked, but based on who I needed to be friends with so that I would not be bullied. The pro of this is that I only received light bullying outside of the home, the con is I did not have true friends, or nice friends who I would want to remain in contact with. However, that is what I had to do anyway to survive, since I was being bullied and abused at home, so if it happened outside the home too, I might not be here today. Is it this bad elsewhere, in Ireland, England, Tennessee? That's what people tell me. All I can say is that it is bad in New England. There's a survival of the fittest mentality here that is used as a justification for a lot of things. All this talk recently of not tolerating bullies, this is all very new.
    No, it's not the same everywhere else.
    From talking to Americans I've learned that the portrayals of American school life on tv and in films with all the cliques and bs that goes with it is 100% accurate.
    Obviously bullying exists here but it is in no way as endemic as it is in the US.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    The film Carrie springs to mind for some reason. Some striking similarities there.
    Er, no.

    To quote Father Ted, some things are real and some things are far away (fiction).

    Anyway, queue the braying mob and their chants of 'fetch the noose'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Er, no.

    To quote Father Ted, some things are real and some things are far away (fiction).

    Anyway, queue the braying mob and their chants of 'fetch the noose'.
    Cant imagine there is a soul in the world that feels sorry for these girls or the two men. Their actions were beyond contempt. They were relentless in their pursuit of Prince. But yes there has to be due process.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    JackieBaron
    Thanks for sharing your story. Don't compare your actions to the mean girls of South Hadley, not even close.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    A piece written by Emily Bazelon on the background to this story:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2260952/entry/2260953/

    Take time to read through the article, it's quite long.


  • Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ayan Screeching Hairbrush


    CiaranMT wrote: »
    A piece written by Emily Bazelon on the background to this story:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2260952/entry/2260953/

    Take time to read through the article, it's quite long.

    What actually happened, in the eyes of many of the students I've talked to, is that Phoebe got into separate conflicts with different kids. That doesn't excuse the other kids' bad behavior in response to Phoebe's actions. But it was one source of the trouble. Social scientists generally define bullying as repeated acts of abuse that involve a power imbalance. Is that what happened to Phoebe? "In the end you can call it bullying," says one adult at the school. "But to the other kids, Phoebe was the one with the power. She was attracting guys away from relationships."
    Oh, please...

    I'm all for fair and balanced but "she had problems anyway and she was the one in power"... :rolleyes:


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    still doesn't justify the harrasement.Wonder where she got access to confidential medical records?the timing is also very conveient with the pretrial and possible plea deal in september,
    .Also remember the D.A had access to all this information before charges were brought and had no problem getting the charges filed.Remember they are not charged with causing her death


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    It isn't an article to debunk the whole case surrounding the suicide. I posted it because it shows that there is a bit more to the case than what the media originally were so hysterical about.

    I don't really have an opinion on the case either way, not one that could be counted as valid (other than the whole thing being so very sad). Same could be said for the vast majority of this thread.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Cant imagine there is a soul in the world that feels sorry for these girls or the two men. Their actions were beyond contempt. They were relentless in their pursuit of Prince. But yes there has to be due process.

    I don't feel sorry for them but I feel empathy for them. There's one simple reason people bully: to save them from being bullied themselves. It is eat or be eaten at school.

    I thnk we've all done things where we've caused hurt to another. I remember one incident where I was in the girl's bathroom, and there was another girl physically threatening a younger girl, I could have helped but I didn't. Why - because I was afraid the girl would turn on me.

    I regret it now.
    And Im sure those girls will regret it in years to come.
    I just think all those facebook pages such as 'kayla nary should burn in hell' or threatening to go round to her house to kill her, are defeating the point. You can't defeat bullying with bullying. You can defeat bullying with compassion for the bullies and from learning lessons not to do it again


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Philip Boucher Hayes is talking about this trial this minute on RTÉ 1's Drivetime: you can listen here. It seems there is currently a campaign to blacken Phoebe Prince's name prior to the trial. A journalist in Slate is now claiming that Phoebe Prince was a bully ...back home in Limerick. Apparently the defence lawyers of the students in the US who are accused of bullying have recruited private investigators, one of whom went to Ireland to dig up dirt on Phoebe Prince. But the journalist who reported these "findings" refuses to speak to RTÉ about her claim.

    Seems very nasty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    that right thaya is pure bull**** and scumbaggery


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,838 ✭✭✭phill106


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Philip Boucher Hayes is talking about this trial this minute on RTÉ 1's Drivetime: you can listen here. It seems there is currently a campaign to blacken Phoebe Prince's name prior to the trial. A journalist in Slate is now claiming that Phoebe Prince was a bully ...back home in Limerick. Apparently the defence lawyers of the students in the US who are accused of bullying have recruited private investigators, one of whom went to Ireland to dig up dirt on Phoebe Prince. But the journalist who reported these "findings" refuses to speak to RTÉ about her claim.

    Seems very nasty.
    Found the slate link here http://www.slate.com/id/2263470/
    Sounds like a flimsy defence even if true. What are they going to say, she deserved it?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Sykk


    Bullies make me sick.. When I have kids.. I'm going to make sure they're 100% comfortable with telling me everything and anything.. So I'll always be aware if they're getting trouble..

    Manners will also be imprinted into their personalities so they won't be the bullies either.


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