The...and where did that come from

Galvasean · 18-05-2010 09:33PM

Zillah wrote: »

I think he meant in the sense that it exposes our puny human limitations. That can be kind of sad.

Ah. I see it moreso 'as room for improvement' and potential. I think it would be a somewhat sad experience to know everything. kind of like when you finish your favourite computer game and there is nothing new to uncover in it. Only in this case you can't buy a new game.

Dr. Loon · 19-05-2010 02:06AM

dan_d wrote: »

As with yourself OP I believe in something...that something must be out there. I'm not sure I really believe it physically created us, but I'm pretty sure it plays a part in many ways.

Why? Why can't there not be a something? Does there have to be a something? Also, your something sounds like it does nothing, so what's the point of it. What part could it be playing?

To me, God(s) is a limitation of the human brain. It shows a lack of proper imagination. Imagine the **** we might have already imagined and therefore created, if it weren't for all this God business, and religion's general prevention of science through the ages.

dan_d · 21-05-2010 03:09PM

No rehashes of soul vs mind vs spirit discussions......none of us actually have a solid answer to that, no matter what we like to think, so it's a waste of virtual space. What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals - though some days that is debatable too. Anyway, call it what you will.

Dr. Loon.....double negative....I'm a bit confused."Why can't there not be something....(why cannot there not be something)".

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, I've overthought it now to be honest! If you're asking me why does there HAVE to be something? I don't know..focus on the part of the sentence that says "I believe".That's MY belief, I don't expect anyone else to subsrcibe to it. I suppose the simple answer is why not?

I can't explain the ins and outs of what I'm thinking very well, but let me try. I think there's something out there, be it Bhudda,Allah,Jesus,God whatever, partly because when people die, their bodies stop working as machines, but also the essence of themselves vanishes. Most of our behaviours, beliefs included are taught and learned. But there is still something inside us that makes us individuals (back to the soul/spirit thing),and that, for whatever reason can't just vanish (I think). What would be the point?

If it comes to it, why did early people go for believing in a deity, rather than trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of why and how we're here? Fair enough they didn't have the technology - but why did they go for religion over develoing the techonology quicker? If you see God as a limitation of the human brain and that religion prevented science.....at what point did religion overtake science, become the "easier" option and why? Before any religion developed, what was going on in our development/evolution that people didn't become more interested in finding out about the physical world we live in, and chose to invest so much energy in invisible, mythical or otherwise, deities instead?

It's very hard to explain my thinking without getting horribly involved and confusing. I would consider myself Catholic, mainly because it's the religion I was brought up in. I do attend Mass. I don't however necessarily believe many of the rites and institutions - I recognise that a lot of the rituals and beliefs were thought up by humans over time, for whatever different reasons. But what I do believe in is the essence of the religion - consider others, try and live life as best you can, and have a conscience. And I do believe in an afterlife - for various reasons. Have you ever really considered an eternity of nothingness? It's a friggin' scarey thought! Having said all that I am by no means the bible-bashing type - I don't know Genesis from Deuteronomy or anything in between!

Bottom line to all of this is, they're my beliefs and I don't expect anyone else to buy into them, or understand them necessarily.What I'm trying to say about how religion evolved compared to technology vaguely (very!) ties in with Zillahs original post. Honestly, I'd be writing for the rest of the day if I tried to explain how, so I'll leave it at this...to me whether or not you believe in God is entirely your own business. People forget that and spend their time shoving their beliefs, or lack thereof, down everyone else's throats and sneering at them when they don't agree. And that's the part that REALLY annoys me about any religion.

Mark Hamill · 21-05-2010 04:17PM

dan_d wrote: »

No rehashes of soul vs mind vs spirit discussions......none of us actually have a solid answer to that, no matter what we like to think, so it's a waste of virtual space. What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals - though some days that is debatable too. Anyway, call it what you will.

That would be the ability to form complex language and perform abstract thought, I would imagine. The size of our brain helps.

dan_d wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, I've overthought it now to be honest! If you're asking me why does there HAVE to be something? I don't know..focus on the part of the sentence that says "I believe".That's MY belief, I don't expect anyone else to subsrcibe to it. I suppose the simple answer is why not?

Because there is no reason to say it, thats why. Its far better to say "I dont know" and keep looking for the real answer, than to simply stick with the first answer you like, its how humanity has advanced out of caves.

dan_d wrote: »

their bodies stop working as machines, but also the essence of themselves vanishes.

Whats the difference?

dan_d wrote: »

Most of our behaviours, beliefs included are taught and learned. But there is still something inside us that makes us individuals (back to the soul/spirit thing),and that, for whatever reason can't just vanish (I think). What would be the point?

Who says there is a point? If you want to be truely honest in this, and not just make up stuff to make yourself feel better, you need to abandon your preconceptions and question everything.

dan_d wrote: »

If it comes to it, why did early people go for believing in a deity, rather than trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of why and how we're here? Fair enough they didn't have the technology - but why did they go for religion over develoing the techonology quicker?

Its not just early people, people still do it today. The simple answer is that its easier (in the short run) and quicker to think "god did it" rather than it is to actually understand things. Many "facts" we know today are actually based on many other "facts", no fact exists in isolation, to understand one is to understand many, and for many people this is daunting.

dan_d wrote: »

If you see God as a limitation of the human brain and that religion prevented science.....at what point did religion overtake science, become the "easier" option and why?

The moment it was invented (the day the first scoundrel met the first fool:pac:) was the day religion replaced actual thinking.

dan_d wrote: »

Before any religion developed, what was going on in our development/evolution that people didn't become more interested in finding out about the physical world we live in, and chose to invest so much energy in invisible, mythical or otherwise, deities instead?

I would imagine that they thought they where learning about the physical world (the ones who actually believed in the religions), its just without realising the actual nature of the earth and natural events, how where they to know if they where right or not?

dan_d wrote: »

But what I do believe in is the essence of the religion - consider others, try and live life as best you can, and have a conscience.

These have as much to do with religion as the ingredients for making a good pizza.

dan_d wrote: »

And I do believe in an afterlife - for various reasons. Have you ever really considered an eternity of nothingness? It's a friggin' scarey thought!

At times I find it mind numbingly terrifying. That still would not change the reality of it though, so why should I entertain the possibility of any other idea without evidence?

strobe · 21-05-2010 04:23PM

dan_d wrote: »

What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals.

This is where you are going wrong.....We are animals. The only thing that sets us apart from the animals is opposable thumbs (great apes, pandas, koalas, and birds don't exist.....Prove they do!). We are animals, we are very clever animals...lucky us. Why the desire to make us out to be some kind of space child manufactured freaks?

seamus · 21-05-2010 04:42PM

dan_d wrote: »

What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals - though some days that is debatable too.

It's language effectively. Language gives us the ability to share knowledge and abstract thoughts. Many other animal species have the ability to share knowledge through demonstration, but it's a limited capability. Language itself allows me to share my knowledge and my opinion directly with someone else who won't even be born for a few hundred years, by writing it down.

None of our other faculties are all that unique. Most other animals possess them in some form or another and many animals are better than us at most things. But none have developed language to the same level of complexity and control which we have. And from that everything we have created as a species has stemmed.

If it comes to it, why did early people go for believing in a deity, rather than trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of why and how we're here?

Evolution doesn't just apply to genes. It also applies to thoughts and ideas. Those most favourable to the species will survive, the rest won't. The drive to understand things is something in our biological makeup, but it's not necessarily a drive which says, "Get the right answer, and be sure it's right", the drive simply says, "Get an answer which appears right". "God" certainly ticks all the boxes and it satisfies the drive to understand far better and far easier than science ever will, so it becomes a favourable idea which is passed on and lives on.

strobe · 21-05-2010 04:59PM

seamus wrote: »

It's language effectively. Language gives us the ability to share knowledge and abstract thoughts. Many other animal species have the ability to share knowledge through demonstration, but it's a limited capability. Language itself allows me to share my knowledge and my opinion directly with someone else who won't even be born for a few hundred years, by writing it down.
.

I agree with you kind of man. But most animals have a crude language aswell, for mammals like us, and whales and lions and chimps, it is nearly always auditory, but there is an argument that even ants, for instance, also have a language, transmitted chemically. So that isn't anything unique to humans either.

seamus · 21-05-2010 05:03PM

strobe wrote: »

I agree with you kind of man. But most animals have a crude language aswell. So that isn't anything unique to humans either.

Oh agreed, and like most animals the vast majority of our communication is made through body language and tone.
However, none have developed the use of complex vocal sounds to communicate, to nearly the same level that we have. We are far and away the most skilled communicators on the planet.

strobe · 21-05-2010 05:14PM

seamus wrote: »

Oh agreed, and like most animals the vast majority of our communication is made through body language and tone.
However, none have developed the use of complex vocal sounds to communicate, to nearly the same level that we have. We are far and away the most skilled communicators on the planet.

Completely agree. We are far more organised and complex in our language, as we are with our use of electricity, or are abiity to use our environment to our advantage. But it isn't unique behaviour. Eels and sharks and moths use electricity. Termites and gorrilas and sparrows use their environment to shelter themselves. It's something I think about sometimes. Is there any human ability or behaviour that is unique to humans? Some of us imprison our own....that's the one thing I can think of that isn't reflected in another species of animal...that I am aware of.

kiffer · 21-05-2010 06:17PM

Dance... Only humans and some parrots dance to a beat... Other animals might move around to a noise or move in rythmic dance like patterns to attract a mate but they don't match the beat... The don't dance to music.

So as you can see dancing is unique to humans... and parrots... and elephants.

Mark Hamill · 21-05-2010 06:18PM

strobe wrote: »

Completely agree. We are far more organised and complex in our language, as we are with our use of electricity, or are abiity to use our environment to our advantage. But it isn't unique behaviour. Eels and sharks and moths use electricity. Termites and gorrilas and sparrows use their environment to shelter themselves. It's something I think about sometimes. Is there any human ability or behaviour that is unique to humans? Some of us imprison our own....that's the one thing I can think of that isn't reflected in another species of animal...that I am aware of.

I suppose the thing is while each aspect of what humans do is reflected by various animals (LHD = bird dropping snail on stone?), no other animal reflects so much, eels may use electricity, but they dont use tools etc.
I think the main thing that seperates us from animals is abstract thought (born, most likely from superior language skills).

Or maybe its just:
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to."
Mark Twain

strobe · 21-05-2010 06:29PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I suppose the thing is while each aspect of what humans do is reflected by various animals (LHD = bird dropping snail on stone?), no other animal reflects so much, eels may use electricity, but they dont use tools etc.
I think the main thing that seperates us from animals is abstract thought (born, most likely from superior language skills).

Or maybe its just:
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to."
Mark Twain

Eels don't use tools, but plenty of other animals do, on a daily basis.

It's impossible to say with any certainty that dogs or cats or dolphins or parrots don't have abstract thoughts, so that doesn't really hold up.

Love the Twain quote though. Cheers for that.

pinksoir · 21-05-2010 06:59PM

dan_d wrote: »

And I do believe in an afterlife - for various reasons. Have you ever really considered an eternity of nothingness? It's a friggin' scarey thought!

At first it's pretty scary, but you come to accept it. I am quite comfortable living in between two parantheses, outside of which I will never have any awareness, knowledge or experience. Remember, there was an eternity of nothingness before you were born and that wasn't too bad. When you die, to that you will return.

liamw · 21-05-2010 07:10PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

At times I find it mind numbingly terrifying. That still would not change the reality of it though, so why should I entertain the possibility of any other idea without evidence?

I'm not scared of death at all. I don't get what the big deal is. Your brain shuts off and your gone. It was fine before you were born.

iUseVi · 21-05-2010 07:13PM

liamw wrote: »

I'm not scared of death at all. I don't get what the big deal is. Your brain shuts off and your gone. It was fine before you were born.

I'm not scared on death either. Only thing I'm scared of is dying alone or in pain. But the non-existence doesn't bother me.

strobe · 21-05-2010 08:45PM

I am scared of death.....scared is probably the wrong word actually, I just think it will be sh1t. When you cease to exist you can't listen to music, eat peanut butter sandwiches, have sex or play pool when you are really really drunk but still somehow be sh1t hot at it. I hate the fact that one day I will die and never be able to do all the cool stuff you could do when you were alive. But just because I don't like something, doesn't mean it won't happen and I don't feel the compulsion to decieve myself into believing it won't happen. This belief is one of the reasons I love life so much. Someone said it didn't they..... "life is but a thin sliver of light between two immensities of darkness". The fact that I even get to see that thin sliver of light completely makes up for the fact it comes to an end at some point. All in all I think we got the long end of the stick.

liamw · 21-05-2010 08:57PM

strobe wrote: »

I am scared of death.....scared is probably the wrong word actually, I just think it will be sh1t.

But it won't be sh1t. It won't be anything. You can't think or reflect about it.

I get your thought process but it doesn't makes sense when you think about it.

strobe · 21-05-2010 11:18PM

liamw wrote: »

But it won't be sh1t. It won't be anything. You can't think or reflect about it.

I get your thought process but it doesn't makes sense when you think about it.

You don't have to be able to know it's sh1t for it to be sh1t. Sh1t will find a way.

Dr. Loon · 22-05-2010 03:46AM

strobe wrote: »

You don't have to be able to know it's sh1t for it to be sh1t. Sh1t will find a way.

Were you aware of something before you were born? You won't know.

I'd rather return to that state, then some "heaven". Wouldn't heaven be boring?

Daftendirekt · 24-05-2010 01:33AM

strobe wrote: »

You don't have to be able to know it's sh1t for it to be sh1t. Sh1t will find a way.

Sure you do. If you aren't there then it can't be shit for you

.

I'd look at it as life being your big day out, and death your beauty sleep*.

That you never wake up from

.

WeeBushy · 24-05-2010 10:49AM

While I know once I'm dead there is nothing; no pain, loneliness, suffering etc. It's the process of actually dying that scares me.

Lying on my death bed as I slowly fade away is what scares me. I will know that that this is the last time I will ever speak to and see my loved ones again, and I will never get to do any of the things I like anymore. I know full well, and fully accept, that in 20 minutes (or however long it take me to die) none of that will matter anymore because I'll be gone, but its that last dying part that scares me. Being conscious that it's all coming to an end.

Actually maybe sad, more than scared, might be more accurate..

sonicthebadger* · 24-05-2010 12:24PM

WeeBushy wrote: »

... Being conscious that it's all coming to an end.
...

The curse of being human. I sometimes wonder how many other animals know they're going to die before it actually starts happening.

Still, bad enough you'll have to live through those final minutes once, try not to put yourself through it in your imagination too often beforehand.

Undergod · 24-05-2010 01:24PM

I find death terrifiyng. I like being. I'd rather it didn't stop.

kiffer · 24-05-2010 02:33PM

sonicthebadger* wrote: »

The curse of being human. I sometimes wonder how many other animals know they're going to die before it actually starts happening.

Still, bad enough you'll have to live through those final minutes once, try not to put yourself through it in your imagination too often beforehand.

Animals probably don't worry about abstract things... They can become stressed and anxious, depressed and worried... I don't think they are aware of their own long term mortality... but... old animals slow down and I think (perhaps fancifully so) that they do know they are comming to an end.

Many people think old tom cats go away to die... My old cat, as he slowed down toward the end, totally stopped going out side, he would spend most of his time resting, even more so than usual for cats... He ate very little and but seemed otherwise content... Then one day he went to the back door and demanded to go out. He went out into the garden, walked around it once, curled up in the dappled shade as if to sleep... and then, simply stopped.

Maybe he knew it was his time to go... maybe he did not.
Maybe some instinct tells a a dieing cat to move away from other cats... A diseased, rotting corpse can't be good for a colony...

There are a number of things that, in humans, trigger an overwhelming sense of impending doom... It is one of the known side effects of getting the wrong blood type in a transfusion and there is at least one drug used for treating extremely high heart rates that list "sense of impending doom" as a side effect...
As the body fails and the heart slows toward zero beats per minute there is reason to consider that an animals may also feel a sense of impending doom and know that soon it will come to an end...

Other wise small tasty animal fears and runs from big hungry animal, agonising over the abstract is a waste of time in the heat of the moment... However both the hunted and the hunter dream and in their dreams they know, "if I'm caught I'll be eaten and this is bad"

Osgoodisgood · 26-05-2010 12:04PM

Evolution Enter wrote: »

Personally i've no religion but I do have a strong faith! Like the idea, not the list of stupid rules

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Somebody must have posted a similar thread like this already, but I just stumbled across this section and decided to post

You might want to keep this to yourself.

But I'm pretty sure, it was a guy called................................Kevin

Shhhhhhhhhh!

MikeC101 · 26-05-2010 01:42PM

I think the real question to be asked about the Creator now is "and where did he go to?"

Beruthiel · 26-05-2010 01:55PM

Undergod wrote: »

I find death terrifiyng. I like being. I'd rather it didn't stop.

Doesn't the fact you know you are going to die make life all the sweeter?
I often mentally stop for a moment in the middle of something wonderful just to remind myself that I'm having a wonderful time right now and I should savour it.
Death I do not fear, a long painful illness on the other hand, terrifies me. Hopefully euthanasia will be widely available when the time comes!

Canis Lupus · 27-05-2010 12:31AM

I'll miss everything about life when on my deathbed but one thing that I'd reeeeeally love to know is where the human race goes from now. If I could see into the future that's what I'd look into. Will we succeed and travel the stars or consume the planet and each other and all traces of us gone after x amount of time.

I don't often ponder that.... Mostly when drunk and looking at the stars on a clear night.

Undergod · 27-05-2010 12:13PM

Beruthiel wrote: »

Doesn't the fact you know you are going to die make life all the sweeter?
I often mentally stop for a moment in the middle of something wonderful just to remind myself that I'm having a wonderful time right now and I should savour it.
Death I do not fear, a long painful illness on the other hand, terrifies me. Hopefully euthanasia will be widely available when the time comes!

Yeah, I get that, and I agree, but it doesn't make the idea of the cessation of my being any nicer.

Zillah · 27-05-2010 04:56PM

WeeBushy wrote: »

While I know once I'm dead there is nothing; no pain, loneliness, suffering etc. It's the process of actually dying that scares me.

This is why my plan is to be hit by a meteor once I've had enough fun. The specifics of the plan stil escape me, however.

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I'll miss everything about life when on my deathbed but one thing that I'd reeeeeally love to know is where the human race goes from now.

This is also an issue for me. Most people are aware of the concept in some vague and abstract sense, but we know for sure that some day the sun will expand and incinerate the Earth. That will happen. Look up. That very sky is going to be torn away by blasts of nuclear fire from space. Guaranteed 100%. Assuming we or our cybernetic superhero descendents have survived that long, I want to know where we end up. Did hover cars ever come into common usage? Did skynet really take a shot at it? Is nanite technology really the mighty force I suspect it will be? So many questions and my last thought will have been eons previous to that and that kind of sucks.

It sucks in a kind of abstract way though and I'm not gonna get hung up on it.

The...and where did that come from

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