The...and where did that come from

Evolution Enter

Personally i've no religion but I do have a strong faith! Like the idea, not the list of stupid rules

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Somebody must have posted a similar thread like this already, but I just stumbled across this section and decided to post

GLaDOS

A combination of abiogenesis and evolution is what has lead to all life today.

Before that? Big bang.

Before that? Fecked if I know.

However, just because science doesn't know, shouldn't give the ramblings of a 2000 year old fairy tale book any more credence.

kiffer

Evolution Enter wrote: »

Personally i've no religion but I do have a strong faith! Like the idea, not the list of stupid rules

um... how do you mean? are you some sort of à la carte Christian or a Deist or what?
What do you have faith in? An ill/weakly defined generic God?

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Ultimately, We don't know... we can work our way back and we hit a wall in our understanding ... a wall we're slowly pushing further back... but it would be a lie to claim we know what's on the other side of that wall... What came before the big bang? That may be a nonsensical question... or it might be some complex multi-dimensional physics crazy land.
*shrug*
We don't know, but we're not going to make up some story about a magical mystery man and cram it in there to fill the gap and we're definitely not going to except one of the many such conflicting accounts of magical mystery men with out any solid evidence...


Where do you think it came from... Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?
I'm going to assume that you'll say God... then you'll define god as whatever created everything and for some reason god doesn't need a cause... and also for some reason god must be conscious, a person...

Somebody must have posted a similar thread like this already, but I just stumbled across this section and decided to post

MikeC101

Evolution Enter wrote: »

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

I think you're falling into the "atheism = 100% sure there's no possiblity of a god" trap a bit.

But the above is a big problem I have with religions. Out of the multitude of possibilities that may have caused our universe they claim to know that it must have been a "god".

If some sort of higher being did create the universe, I find it extraordinaly unlikely we would be able to comprehend such a being, and I find it laughable that this being - who has invented a creation of such staggering depth and complexity - would be some sort of petty bronze age tyrant, obsessed with what people do in the bedroom, demanding love and worship, with a set of rules and commandments that vary depending on who exactly is describing this god.

It's this that's led me to the conclusion that people invent their own gods, in their own likenesses, and, conveniently, those gods display the same bigotry as those believing in them.

robindch

Evolution Enter wrote: »

I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from" [...]

Where did we all come from?

My irony meter just broke

Blackhorse Slim

Evolution Enter wrote: »

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Can you give me an answer that cannot be responded to with "and where did that come from"?

btw I come from Meath.

Zillah

We don't know.



Right there in that devastating, elegant and simple little sentence is the true heart of the divide between the sceptical and the religious. Some of us have come to terms with the limitations of human understanding, others cannot. I accept the above without assumption that it is temporary or escapable. I concede that there is, hypothetically, a chance that in the future humanity may some how come to understand the very nature of existence, but I doubt it. I have completely accepted that it may come to pass that no human mind will ever conceive of the true nature of reality.

Pity, but I'm over it. And I will regard with nothing but scorn and derision those who invent fanstastical palaces of sophistry and preposterous rhetoric in a futile attempt to escape those three beautiful and terrible words. We don't know.

hiorta

"Where did it all come from""?
Great question which is still without a definitive answer, although theories are debated.

What we see as 'it' may in fact be entirely illusory in the long run once quantum things are better understood (if that's possible)

Could it be that the 'Universe' unfolds as we grow?

Dades

It's perfectly acceptable for us to continue to ask "where did we come from?", it's when people start asking "why are we here?" I want to start chucking stuff about.

Oh, and what everyone else said.

Zombrex

Evolution Enter wrote: »

Personally i've no religion but I do have a strong faith! Like the idea, not the list of stupid rules

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Somebody must have posted a similar thread like this already, but I just stumbled across this section and decided to post

You came from your mother, as did everyone in this current generation of humans ("we all")

Morbert

It's turtles all the way down.

Sam Vimes

I don't know so it must be god.


That or "A wizard did it". Same thing really

Turtwig

Where did we all come from?

Nothing.

Dave!

hiorta wrote: »

"Where did it all come from""?
Great question which is still without a definitive answer, although theories are debated.

What we see as 'it' may in fact be entirely illusory in the long run once quantum things are better understood (if that's possible)

Could it be that the 'Universe' unfolds as we grow?

Maybe, but that's just idle speculation, so let's just wait and see where the evidence takes us instead of guessing

OP: Dunno, what about you? There's a Nobel prize in it for ya!

Dades

Dave! wrote: »

OP: Dunno, what about you? There's a Nobel prize in it for ya!

And maybe a fatwa if you're lucky!

Turtwig

Dades wrote: »

And maybe a fatwa if you're lucky!

True, even if someone were to figure it out I think a significant proportion of humanity would prefer to live in ignorance of it and retain their romantic dreams. Regardless of how humanity chooses to perceive it, whatever reality actually is, will be reality regardless.

bleg

It all came from God,

the question is though... where did that come from?

liamw

Maybe all our man-made scientific and mathematical models of the universe do not represent reality as it really is at all?

Maybe they're good enough to build airplanes and computers and align with our evolved and cognitive perception of the world around us, but that's about it?

Maybe the questions 'How' 'What' and 'Why' are invalid questions and should only be applied to areas within our limited scope of understanding?

Maybe I'm not making any sense?

Daftendirekt

Evolution Enter wrote: »

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

I find this a strange thing to say, since it's usually the objection levelled against theistic accounts of the origins of the universe.

But the answer to your question is 'We don't know'.

And that's infinitely preferable to 'Magic'.

Zillah

liamw wrote: »

Maybe the questions 'How' 'What' and 'Why' are invalid questions and should only be applied to areas within our limited scope of understanding?

Many people seem to labour under the illusion that we are some sort of free intelligences existing apart from temporal limitations. The truth of the matter is that we are an animal species, equipped with mammalian brains that have evolved on the planet Earth to allow us to survive on this gravitationally bound, atmospherically enveloped rocky globe. It is quite likely that our ability to conduct science or create technology is a simple accident of language and the capacity for abstract reasoning.

To reinforce my earlier post, we may simply lack the fundamental intellectual capacity to comprehend the larger questions of existence. Were a superior alien intelligence to ask us the question, it's possible we may not even understand the rudiments of that question, let alone approach anything resembling an answer. We're at the point in theoretical physics were a very intelligent person must spend the majority of their life catching up with current understanding, let alone adding to it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson did an excellent talk where he spoke about relative intelligence and understanding of the universe. One hypothetical example he suggested was that of an alien species who's toddlers produced the equivalent of our cutting edge science in school, and put it on the fridge amid condescending cooing noises. What we consider to be the most advanced theoretical models of existence may simply be intuitive to them. Now try to imagine what their most dedicated scientists are doing and it may put things in scale. We're mammals who still burn fossil fuels for power, who still die from illness and natural disasters, the majority of whom still beg the sky for help when things go wrong. And you're asking about the fundamental nature of existence? Ha!

EDIT: One typo in the very last sentence. ugh. Drinking and posting.

Zombrex

Hit and run?

Dades

Meh, he might be back.

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

Meh, he might be back.

That has always been your problem Dades, too much faith :P

Canis Lupus

Zillah wrote: »

Many people seem to labour under the illusion that we are some sort of free intelligences existing apart from temporal limitations. The truth of the matter is that we are an animal species, equipped with mammalian brains that have evolved on the planet Earth to allow us to survive on this gravitationally bound, atmospherically enveloped rocky globe. It is quite likely that our ability to conduct science or create technology is a simple accident of language and the capacity for abstract reasoning.

To reinforce my earlier post, we may simply lack the fundamental intellectual capacity to comprehend the larger questions of existence. Were a superior alien intelligence to ask us the question, it's possible we may not even understand the rudiments of that question, let alone approach anything resembling an answer. We're at the point in theoretical physics were a very intelligent person must spend the majority of their life catching up with current understanding, let alone adding to it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson did an excellent talk where he spoke about relative intelligence and understanding of the universe. One hypothetical example he suggested was that of an alien species who's toddlers produced the equivalent of our cutting edge science in school, and put it on the fridge amid condescending cooing noises. What we consider to be the most advanced theoretical models of existence may simply be intuitive to them. Now try to imagine what their most dedicated scientists are doing and it may put things in scale. We're mammals who still burn fossil fuels for power, who still die from illness and natural disasters, the majority of whom still beg the sky for help when things go wrong. And you're asking about the fundamental nature of existence? Ha!

EDIT: One typo in the very last sentence. ugh. Drinking and posting.

That's quite a sad post... OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

Galvasean

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's quite a sad post...

And why is that? It looks a well thought out and interesting post to me.

Canis Lupis wrote:

OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

Depends on whether we obliterate ourselves in a nuclear fireball any time soon. Personally I'd say we are nowhere near it.

strobe

Canis Lupus wrote: »

OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

I'd venture a guess at yes. At least in terms of our natural evolution. Because of our technology we are no longer subject to our environment, so the main driving force is neutralised. Natural selection no longer effecs the human species as far as I can see. No natural selection, no evolution. Short of a major cataclysmic event I can't see that changing. But then again also because of our technology we are reaching a point where we will be able to selectively twist and mould our genes in whatever way we feel like, so in a thousand years we could very well have a whole plethora of X-Men running round the shop.

Zillah

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's quite a sad post... OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

On the contrary I'd say we're on the cusp of massive advances. Research is showing that both AI and quantum computing might be feasible possibilities in the not too distant future. With that we could quite possibly create intelligences vastly superior to our own. Exponentially superior, to the degree of the aforementioned hypothetical aliens. Combine such technologies with human brains and our cyborg descendents might rule the galaxies.

That would be pretty sweet.

Or skynet kills us all. Whatever.

Zillah

Galvasean wrote: »

And why is that? It looks a well thought out and interesting post to me.

I think he meant in the sense that it exposes our puny human limitations. That can be kind of sad.

iUseVi

The awesome thing about the human race is that we can now improve ourselves and our own "design". No matter how limited, puny or irrational we are as a race, the mighty power we wield in hand with genetics for example gives me hope. You realise that human limitations are not a cage, but temporary state.

Now I just wish I would live long enough to see the fantastic things of the future, but at least there's plenty to enjoy here and now.

dan_d

Nature/science/evolution of genes and molecules is where we physically came from.
The bit that sets us apart is the existence of a soul - or a thinking brain...intelligence, if you will. I think religion exists to try and explain the questions posed by our intelligence as to our creation - to explain the unknown. Way back along the line somewhere, we developed an imagination much quicker than we understood science.
As with yourself OP I believe in something...that something must be out there. I'm not sure I really believe it physically created us, but I'm pretty sure it plays a part in many ways.
That's probably the most profound I've been all week!

kiffer

ah the soul... Next we'll have a rehash of soul vs mind vs spirit discussion.