The...and where did that come from

Evolution Enter

Personally i've no religion but I do have a strong faith! Like the idea, not the list of stupid rules

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Somebody must have posted a similar thread like this already, but I just stumbled across this section and decided to post

GLaDOS

A combination of abiogenesis and evolution is what has lead to all life today.

Before that? Big bang.

Before that? Fecked if I know.

However, just because science doesn't know, shouldn't give the ramblings of a 2000 year old fairy tale book any more credence.

kiffer

Evolution Enter wrote: »

Personally i've no religion but I do have a strong faith! Like the idea, not the list of stupid rules

um... how do you mean? are you some sort of à la carte Christian or a Deist or what?
What do you have faith in? An ill/weakly defined generic God?

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Ultimately, We don't know... we can work our way back and we hit a wall in our understanding ... a wall we're slowly pushing further back... but it would be a lie to claim we know what's on the other side of that wall... What came before the big bang? That may be a nonsensical question... or it might be some complex multi-dimensional physics crazy land.
*shrug*
We don't know, but we're not going to make up some story about a magical mystery man and cram it in there to fill the gap and we're definitely not going to except one of the many such conflicting accounts of magical mystery men with out any solid evidence...


Where do you think it came from... Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?
I'm going to assume that you'll say God... then you'll define god as whatever created everything and for some reason god doesn't need a cause... and also for some reason god must be conscious, a person...

Somebody must have posted a similar thread like this already, but I just stumbled across this section and decided to post

MikeC101

Evolution Enter wrote: »

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

I think you're falling into the "atheism = 100% sure there's no possiblity of a god" trap a bit.

But the above is a big problem I have with religions. Out of the multitude of possibilities that may have caused our universe they claim to know that it must have been a "god".

If some sort of higher being did create the universe, I find it extraordinaly unlikely we would be able to comprehend such a being, and I find it laughable that this being - who has invented a creation of such staggering depth and complexity - would be some sort of petty bronze age tyrant, obsessed with what people do in the bedroom, demanding love and worship, with a set of rules and commandments that vary depending on who exactly is describing this god.

It's this that's led me to the conclusion that people invent their own gods, in their own likenesses, and, conveniently, those gods display the same bigotry as those believing in them.

robindch

Evolution Enter wrote: »

I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from" [...]

Where did we all come from?

My irony meter just broke

Blackhorse Slim

Evolution Enter wrote: »

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Can you give me an answer that cannot be responded to with "and where did that come from"?

btw I come from Meath.

Zillah

We don't know.



Right there in that devastating, elegant and simple little sentence is the true heart of the divide between the sceptical and the religious. Some of us have come to terms with the limitations of human understanding, others cannot. I accept the above without assumption that it is temporary or escapable. I concede that there is, hypothetically, a chance that in the future humanity may some how come to understand the very nature of existence, but I doubt it. I have completely accepted that it may come to pass that no human mind will ever conceive of the true nature of reality.

Pity, but I'm over it. And I will regard with nothing but scorn and derision those who invent fanstastical palaces of sophistry and preposterous rhetoric in a futile attempt to escape those three beautiful and terrible words. We don't know.

hiorta

"Where did it all come from""?
Great question which is still without a definitive answer, although theories are debated.

What we see as 'it' may in fact be entirely illusory in the long run once quantum things are better understood (if that's possible)

Could it be that the 'Universe' unfolds as we grow?

Dades

It's perfectly acceptable for us to continue to ask "where did we come from?", it's when people start asking "why are we here?" I want to start chucking stuff about.

Oh, and what everyone else said.

Zombrex

Evolution Enter wrote: »

Personally i've no religion but I do have a strong faith! Like the idea, not the list of stupid rules

But I've always had a problem with atheists, and it's the "where did that come from"

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

Somebody must have posted a similar thread like this already, but I just stumbled across this section and decided to post

You came from your mother, as did everyone in this current generation of humans ("we all")

Morbert

It's turtles all the way down.

Sam Vimes

I don't know so it must be god.


That or "A wizard did it". Same thing really

Turtwig

Where did we all come from?

Nothing.

Dave!

hiorta wrote: »

"Where did it all come from""?
Great question which is still without a definitive answer, although theories are debated.

What we see as 'it' may in fact be entirely illusory in the long run once quantum things are better understood (if that's possible)

Could it be that the 'Universe' unfolds as we grow?

Maybe, but that's just idle speculation, so let's just wait and see where the evidence takes us instead of guessing

OP: Dunno, what about you? There's a Nobel prize in it for ya!

Dades

Dave! wrote: »

OP: Dunno, what about you? There's a Nobel prize in it for ya!

And maybe a fatwa if you're lucky!

Turtwig

Dades wrote: »

And maybe a fatwa if you're lucky!

True, even if someone were to figure it out I think a significant proportion of humanity would prefer to live in ignorance of it and retain their romantic dreams. Regardless of how humanity chooses to perceive it, whatever reality actually is, will be reality regardless.

bleg

It all came from God,

the question is though... where did that come from?

liamw

Maybe all our man-made scientific and mathematical models of the universe do not represent reality as it really is at all?

Maybe they're good enough to build airplanes and computers and align with our evolved and cognitive perception of the world around us, but that's about it?

Maybe the questions 'How' 'What' and 'Why' are invalid questions and should only be applied to areas within our limited scope of understanding?

Maybe I'm not making any sense?

Daftendirekt

Evolution Enter wrote: »

So here it is... Where did we all come from? Please answer without me being able to respond with the phrase "and where did that come from"?

I find this a strange thing to say, since it's usually the objection levelled against theistic accounts of the origins of the universe.

But the answer to your question is 'We don't know'.

And that's infinitely preferable to 'Magic'.

Zillah

liamw wrote: »

Maybe the questions 'How' 'What' and 'Why' are invalid questions and should only be applied to areas within our limited scope of understanding?

Many people seem to labour under the illusion that we are some sort of free intelligences existing apart from temporal limitations. The truth of the matter is that we are an animal species, equipped with mammalian brains that have evolved on the planet Earth to allow us to survive on this gravitationally bound, atmospherically enveloped rocky globe. It is quite likely that our ability to conduct science or create technology is a simple accident of language and the capacity for abstract reasoning.

To reinforce my earlier post, we may simply lack the fundamental intellectual capacity to comprehend the larger questions of existence. Were a superior alien intelligence to ask us the question, it's possible we may not even understand the rudiments of that question, let alone approach anything resembling an answer. We're at the point in theoretical physics were a very intelligent person must spend the majority of their life catching up with current understanding, let alone adding to it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson did an excellent talk where he spoke about relative intelligence and understanding of the universe. One hypothetical example he suggested was that of an alien species who's toddlers produced the equivalent of our cutting edge science in school, and put it on the fridge amid condescending cooing noises. What we consider to be the most advanced theoretical models of existence may simply be intuitive to them. Now try to imagine what their most dedicated scientists are doing and it may put things in scale. We're mammals who still burn fossil fuels for power, who still die from illness and natural disasters, the majority of whom still beg the sky for help when things go wrong. And you're asking about the fundamental nature of existence? Ha!

EDIT: One typo in the very last sentence. ugh. Drinking and posting.

Zombrex

Hit and run?

Dades

Meh, he might be back.

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

Meh, he might be back.

That has always been your problem Dades, too much faith :P

Canis Lupus

Zillah wrote: »

Many people seem to labour under the illusion that we are some sort of free intelligences existing apart from temporal limitations. The truth of the matter is that we are an animal species, equipped with mammalian brains that have evolved on the planet Earth to allow us to survive on this gravitationally bound, atmospherically enveloped rocky globe. It is quite likely that our ability to conduct science or create technology is a simple accident of language and the capacity for abstract reasoning.

To reinforce my earlier post, we may simply lack the fundamental intellectual capacity to comprehend the larger questions of existence. Were a superior alien intelligence to ask us the question, it's possible we may not even understand the rudiments of that question, let alone approach anything resembling an answer. We're at the point in theoretical physics were a very intelligent person must spend the majority of their life catching up with current understanding, let alone adding to it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson did an excellent talk where he spoke about relative intelligence and understanding of the universe. One hypothetical example he suggested was that of an alien species who's toddlers produced the equivalent of our cutting edge science in school, and put it on the fridge amid condescending cooing noises. What we consider to be the most advanced theoretical models of existence may simply be intuitive to them. Now try to imagine what their most dedicated scientists are doing and it may put things in scale. We're mammals who still burn fossil fuels for power, who still die from illness and natural disasters, the majority of whom still beg the sky for help when things go wrong. And you're asking about the fundamental nature of existence? Ha!

EDIT: One typo in the very last sentence. ugh. Drinking and posting.

That's quite a sad post... OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

Galvasean

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's quite a sad post...

And why is that? It looks a well thought out and interesting post to me.

Canis Lupis wrote:

OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

Depends on whether we obliterate ourselves in a nuclear fireball any time soon. Personally I'd say we are nowhere near it.

strobe

Canis Lupus wrote: »

OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

I'd venture a guess at yes. At least in terms of our natural evolution. Because of our technology we are no longer subject to our environment, so the main driving force is neutralised. Natural selection no longer effecs the human species as far as I can see. No natural selection, no evolution. Short of a major cataclysmic event I can't see that changing. But then again also because of our technology we are reaching a point where we will be able to selectively twist and mould our genes in whatever way we feel like, so in a thousand years we could very well have a whole plethora of X-Men running round the shop.

Zillah

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's quite a sad post... OT but I wonder are we at the pinnacle or close to the pinnacle of our existence as a species?

On the contrary I'd say we're on the cusp of massive advances. Research is showing that both AI and quantum computing might be feasible possibilities in the not too distant future. With that we could quite possibly create intelligences vastly superior to our own. Exponentially superior, to the degree of the aforementioned hypothetical aliens. Combine such technologies with human brains and our cyborg descendents might rule the galaxies.

That would be pretty sweet.

Or skynet kills us all. Whatever.

Zillah

Galvasean wrote: »

And why is that? It looks a well thought out and interesting post to me.

I think he meant in the sense that it exposes our puny human limitations. That can be kind of sad.

iUseVi

The awesome thing about the human race is that we can now improve ourselves and our own "design". No matter how limited, puny or irrational we are as a race, the mighty power we wield in hand with genetics for example gives me hope. You realise that human limitations are not a cage, but temporary state.

Now I just wish I would live long enough to see the fantastic things of the future, but at least there's plenty to enjoy here and now.

dan_d

Nature/science/evolution of genes and molecules is where we physically came from.
The bit that sets us apart is the existence of a soul - or a thinking brain...intelligence, if you will. I think religion exists to try and explain the questions posed by our intelligence as to our creation - to explain the unknown. Way back along the line somewhere, we developed an imagination much quicker than we understood science.
As with yourself OP I believe in something...that something must be out there. I'm not sure I really believe it physically created us, but I'm pretty sure it plays a part in many ways.
That's probably the most profound I've been all week!

kiffer

ah the soul... Next we'll have a rehash of soul vs mind vs spirit discussion.

Galvasean

Zillah wrote: »

I think he meant in the sense that it exposes our puny human limitations. That can be kind of sad.

Ah. I see it moreso 'as room for improvement' and potential. I think it would be a somewhat sad experience to know everything. kind of like when you finish your favourite computer game and there is nothing new to uncover in it. Only in this case you can't buy a new game.

Dr. Loon

dan_d wrote: »

As with yourself OP I believe in something...that something must be out there. I'm not sure I really believe it physically created us, but I'm pretty sure it plays a part in many ways.

Why? Why can't there not be a something? Does there have to be a something? Also, your something sounds like it does nothing, so what's the point of it. What part could it be playing?

To me, God(s) is a limitation of the human brain. It shows a lack of proper imagination. Imagine the **** we might have already imagined and therefore created, if it weren't for all this God business, and religion's general prevention of science through the ages.

dan_d

No rehashes of soul vs mind vs spirit discussions......none of us actually have a solid answer to that, no matter what we like to think, so it's a waste of virtual space. What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals - though some days that is debatable too. Anyway, call it what you will.

Dr. Loon.....double negative....I'm a bit confused."Why can't there not be something....(why cannot there not be something)".

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, I've overthought it now to be honest! If you're asking me why does there HAVE to be something? I don't know..focus on the part of the sentence that says "I believe".That's MY belief, I don't expect anyone else to subsrcibe to it. I suppose the simple answer is why not?

I can't explain the ins and outs of what I'm thinking very well, but let me try. I think there's something out there, be it Bhudda,Allah,Jesus,God whatever, partly because when people die, their bodies stop working as machines, but also the essence of themselves vanishes. Most of our behaviours, beliefs included are taught and learned. But there is still something inside us that makes us individuals (back to the soul/spirit thing),and that, for whatever reason can't just vanish (I think). What would be the point?

If it comes to it, why did early people go for believing in a deity, rather than trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of why and how we're here? Fair enough they didn't have the technology - but why did they go for religion over develoing the techonology quicker? If you see God as a limitation of the human brain and that religion prevented science.....at what point did religion overtake science, become the "easier" option and why? Before any religion developed, what was going on in our development/evolution that people didn't become more interested in finding out about the physical world we live in, and chose to invest so much energy in invisible, mythical or otherwise, deities instead?

It's very hard to explain my thinking without getting horribly involved and confusing. I would consider myself Catholic, mainly because it's the religion I was brought up in. I do attend Mass. I don't however necessarily believe many of the rites and institutions - I recognise that a lot of the rituals and beliefs were thought up by humans over time, for whatever different reasons. But what I do believe in is the essence of the religion - consider others, try and live life as best you can, and have a conscience. And I do believe in an afterlife - for various reasons. Have you ever really considered an eternity of nothingness? It's a friggin' scarey thought! Having said all that I am by no means the bible-bashing type - I don't know Genesis from Deuteronomy or anything in between!

Bottom line to all of this is, they're my beliefs and I don't expect anyone else to buy into them, or understand them necessarily.What I'm trying to say about how religion evolved compared to technology vaguely (very!) ties in with Zillahs original post. Honestly, I'd be writing for the rest of the day if I tried to explain how, so I'll leave it at this...to me whether or not you believe in God is entirely your own business. People forget that and spend their time shoving their beliefs, or lack thereof, down everyone else's throats and sneering at them when they don't agree. And that's the part that REALLY annoys me about any religion.

Mark Hamill

dan_d wrote: »

No rehashes of soul vs mind vs spirit discussions......none of us actually have a solid answer to that, no matter what we like to think, so it's a waste of virtual space. What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals - though some days that is debatable too. Anyway, call it what you will.

That would be the ability to form complex language and perform abstract thought, I would imagine. The size of our brain helps.

dan_d wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, I've overthought it now to be honest! If you're asking me why does there HAVE to be something? I don't know..focus on the part of the sentence that says "I believe".That's MY belief, I don't expect anyone else to subsrcibe to it. I suppose the simple answer is why not?

Because there is no reason to say it, thats why. Its far better to say "I dont know" and keep looking for the real answer, than to simply stick with the first answer you like, its how humanity has advanced out of caves.

dan_d wrote: »

their bodies stop working as machines, but also the essence of themselves vanishes.

Whats the difference?

dan_d wrote: »

Most of our behaviours, beliefs included are taught and learned. But there is still something inside us that makes us individuals (back to the soul/spirit thing),and that, for whatever reason can't just vanish (I think). What would be the point?

Who says there is a point? If you want to be truely honest in this, and not just make up stuff to make yourself feel better, you need to abandon your preconceptions and question everything.

dan_d wrote: »

If it comes to it, why did early people go for believing in a deity, rather than trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of why and how we're here? Fair enough they didn't have the technology - but why did they go for religion over develoing the techonology quicker?

Its not just early people, people still do it today. The simple answer is that its easier (in the short run) and quicker to think "god did it" rather than it is to actually understand things. Many "facts" we know today are actually based on many other "facts", no fact exists in isolation, to understand one is to understand many, and for many people this is daunting.

dan_d wrote: »

If you see God as a limitation of the human brain and that religion prevented science.....at what point did religion overtake science, become the "easier" option and why?

The moment it was invented (the day the first scoundrel met the first fool:pac:) was the day religion replaced actual thinking.

dan_d wrote: »

Before any religion developed, what was going on in our development/evolution that people didn't become more interested in finding out about the physical world we live in, and chose to invest so much energy in invisible, mythical or otherwise, deities instead?

I would imagine that they thought they where learning about the physical world (the ones who actually believed in the religions), its just without realising the actual nature of the earth and natural events, how where they to know if they where right or not?

dan_d wrote: »

But what I do believe in is the essence of the religion - consider others, try and live life as best you can, and have a conscience.

These have as much to do with religion as the ingredients for making a good pizza.

dan_d wrote: »

And I do believe in an afterlife - for various reasons. Have you ever really considered an eternity of nothingness? It's a friggin' scarey thought!

At times I find it mind numbingly terrifying. That still would not change the reality of it though, so why should I entertain the possibility of any other idea without evidence?

strobe

dan_d wrote: »

What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals.

This is where you are going wrong.....We are animals. The only thing that sets us apart from the animals is opposable thumbs (great apes, pandas, koalas, and birds don't exist.....Prove they do!). We are animals, we are very clever animals...lucky us. Why the desire to make us out to be some kind of space child manufactured freaks?

seamus

dan_d wrote: »

What I'm trying to quantify is the thinking part of our brain that makes us, us and sets us apart from animals - though some days that is debatable too.

It's language effectively. Language gives us the ability to share knowledge and abstract thoughts. Many other animal species have the ability to share knowledge through demonstration, but it's a limited capability. Language itself allows me to share my knowledge and my opinion directly with someone else who won't even be born for a few hundred years, by writing it down.

None of our other faculties are all that unique. Most other animals possess them in some form or another and many animals are better than us at most things. But none have developed language to the same level of complexity and control which we have. And from that everything we have created as a species has stemmed.

If it comes to it, why did early people go for believing in a deity, rather than trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of why and how we're here?

Evolution doesn't just apply to genes. It also applies to thoughts and ideas. Those most favourable to the species will survive, the rest won't. The drive to understand things is something in our biological makeup, but it's not necessarily a drive which says, "Get the right answer, and be sure it's right", the drive simply says, "Get an answer which appears right". "God" certainly ticks all the boxes and it satisfies the drive to understand far better and far easier than science ever will, so it becomes a favourable idea which is passed on and lives on.

strobe

seamus wrote: »

It's language effectively. Language gives us the ability to share knowledge and abstract thoughts. Many other animal species have the ability to share knowledge through demonstration, but it's a limited capability. Language itself allows me to share my knowledge and my opinion directly with someone else who won't even be born for a few hundred years, by writing it down.
.

I agree with you kind of man. But most animals have a crude language aswell, for mammals like us, and whales and lions and chimps, it is nearly always auditory, but there is an argument that even ants, for instance, also have a language, transmitted chemically. So that isn't anything unique to humans either.

seamus

strobe wrote: »

I agree with you kind of man. But most animals have a crude language aswell. So that isn't anything unique to humans either.

Oh agreed, and like most animals the vast majority of our communication is made through body language and tone.
However, none have developed the use of complex vocal sounds to communicate, to nearly the same level that we have. We are far and away the most skilled communicators on the planet.

strobe

seamus wrote: »

Oh agreed, and like most animals the vast majority of our communication is made through body language and tone.
However, none have developed the use of complex vocal sounds to communicate, to nearly the same level that we have. We are far and away the most skilled communicators on the planet.

Completely agree. We are far more organised and complex in our language, as we are with our use of electricity, or are abiity to use our environment to our advantage. But it isn't unique behaviour. Eels and sharks and moths use electricity. Termites and gorrilas and sparrows use their environment to shelter themselves. It's something I think about sometimes. Is there any human ability or behaviour that is unique to humans? Some of us imprison our own....that's the one thing I can think of that isn't reflected in another species of animal...that I am aware of.

kiffer

Dance... Only humans and some parrots dance to a beat... Other animals might move around to a noise or move in rythmic dance like patterns to attract a mate but they don't match the beat... The don't dance to music.

So as you can see dancing is unique to humans... and parrots... and elephants.

Mark Hamill

strobe wrote: »

Completely agree. We are far more organised and complex in our language, as we are with our use of electricity, or are abiity to use our environment to our advantage. But it isn't unique behaviour. Eels and sharks and moths use electricity. Termites and gorrilas and sparrows use their environment to shelter themselves. It's something I think about sometimes. Is there any human ability or behaviour that is unique to humans? Some of us imprison our own....that's the one thing I can think of that isn't reflected in another species of animal...that I am aware of.

I suppose the thing is while each aspect of what humans do is reflected by various animals (LHD = bird dropping snail on stone?), no other animal reflects so much, eels may use electricity, but they dont use tools etc.
I think the main thing that seperates us from animals is abstract thought (born, most likely from superior language skills).

Or maybe its just:
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to."
Mark Twain

strobe

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I suppose the thing is while each aspect of what humans do is reflected by various animals (LHD = bird dropping snail on stone?), no other animal reflects so much, eels may use electricity, but they dont use tools etc.
I think the main thing that seperates us from animals is abstract thought (born, most likely from superior language skills).

Or maybe its just:
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to."
Mark Twain

Eels don't use tools, but plenty of other animals do, on a daily basis.

It's impossible to say with any certainty that dogs or cats or dolphins or parrots don't have abstract thoughts, so that doesn't really hold up.

Love the Twain quote though. Cheers for that.

pinksoir

dan_d wrote: »

And I do believe in an afterlife - for various reasons. Have you ever really considered an eternity of nothingness? It's a friggin' scarey thought!

At first it's pretty scary, but you come to accept it. I am quite comfortable living in between two parantheses, outside of which I will never have any awareness, knowledge or experience. Remember, there was an eternity of nothingness before you were born and that wasn't too bad. When you die, to that you will return.

liamw

Mark Hamill wrote: »

At times I find it mind numbingly terrifying. That still would not change the reality of it though, so why should I entertain the possibility of any other idea without evidence?

I'm not scared of death at all. I don't get what the big deal is. Your brain shuts off and your gone. It was fine before you were born.

iUseVi

liamw wrote: »

I'm not scared of death at all. I don't get what the big deal is. Your brain shuts off and your gone. It was fine before you were born.

I'm not scared on death either. Only thing I'm scared of is dying alone or in pain. But the non-existence doesn't bother me.

strobe

I am scared of death.....scared is probably the wrong word actually, I just think it will be sh1t. When you cease to exist you can't listen to music, eat peanut butter sandwiches, have sex or play pool when you are really really drunk but still somehow be sh1t hot at it. I hate the fact that one day I will die and never be able to do all the cool stuff you could do when you were alive. But just because I don't like something, doesn't mean it won't happen and I don't feel the compulsion to decieve myself into believing it won't happen. This belief is one of the reasons I love life so much. Someone said it didn't they..... "life is but a thin sliver of light between two immensities of darkness". The fact that I even get to see that thin sliver of light completely makes up for the fact it comes to an end at some point. All in all I think we got the long end of the stick.

liamw

strobe wrote: »

I am scared of death.....scared is probably the wrong word actually, I just think it will be sh1t.

But it won't be sh1t. It won't be anything. You can't think or reflect about it.

I get your thought process but it doesn't makes sense when you think about it.

strobe

liamw wrote: »

But it won't be sh1t. It won't be anything. You can't think or reflect about it.

I get your thought process but it doesn't makes sense when you think about it.

You don't have to be able to know it's sh1t for it to be sh1t. Sh1t will find a way.

Dr. Loon

strobe wrote: »

You don't have to be able to know it's sh1t for it to be sh1t. Sh1t will find a way.

Were you aware of something before you were born? You won't know.

I'd rather return to that state, then some "heaven". Wouldn't heaven be boring?

Daftendirekt

strobe wrote: »

You don't have to be able to know it's sh1t for it to be sh1t. Sh1t will find a way.

Sure you do. If you aren't there then it can't be shit for you .

I'd look at it as life being your big day out, and death your beauty sleep*.




That you never wake up from .