Knife/melee rules?

Puding · 25-05-2010 06:25PM

i do agree with you the fps issue, i have previous raised concerns with this area with the raise in ptw use , gbb and such but in my eyes you deal with all the issues, one danger should not be removed because there happens to still be some left, you deal with them all and address them all

there are lot of different types of knifes the ones you describe are stage props and would remove a lot of the risk, if you where to bring in a rules that only that type of knife could be used then ok, but that means you then have to check them all before games, because again all it takes is one idiot. the problem is that there not all that safe

thermo · 25-05-2010 06:29PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Eldoran The Cert Keeper cannot be tricked

]

and who is he when he's at home?

Stonewolf · 25-05-2010 06:38PM

thermo wrote: »

im curious as to how one would get a cert? like who says its ok for mr.X. to use a rubber knife? also how does a site know if mr. X in the previous week has had a suspension of his cert?
not meaning to nit -pick but maybe you could explain how it works in the LARP world?

In the LRP world it's controlled by the game organisers and their sanctioning body (the people who own the rules and setting). Usually certs are given out at main events (the sanctioning bodys own events) by staff after a brief test (mostly practical). At an LRP event all weapons are checked before play (just as we chrono our guns) and if you have a weapon requiring a cert you'll be asked if you have one.

In airsoft a site could give out its own certs with staff members instructed in the relevant practices and maintain a list of who has breached their cert and is banned just like any other person the site has issue with. Alternatively you could try and make the IAA take over administration of it but I doubt they'd be willing to commit scarce resources to it.

Jimkil · 25-05-2010 09:08PM

Got a little board reading so i skipped on a bit.
Airsoft is a funny sport if you want to call a sport. I was heavily involved in one for a few years with all its complexities. The analyzing of old constitutions, by-laws and re righting of same would make grown man cry. Airsoft is not a sport and does not fall under the same kind of rules and regulations. Its a grouping of privateers with a common goal (profit) offering militaristic style gaming to all who turn up. So if the masses want to indulge them selfs in rubber knife carrying actives so be it. Its war after all, and there are no rules expect those of the site owner and the government so please make yourself aware of both before the start of play. So if you were to within reason knife kill you opponent, good on you but if he the proceeds to assault you he should be removed from the site never to return. Our biggest problem is the lack of proper training for players in the art of combat site saftey and respect to others and not rubber knives. Educated players make better killers.

OzCam · 25-05-2010 09:38PM

As Gerrout has mentioned, it's all about consent. Making contact with someone without their consent is technically an assault. We're consenting to being shot with BBS. I don't consent to being "killed" with a knife, rubber, foam or imaginary.

There's just too much that can go wrong. That's as good a reason as any to keep knives out of Irish airsoft. Like a lot of other ideas, it all sounds fine and dandy until someone ends up in court, or in hospital.

gerrowadat · 25-05-2010 09:45PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's assault (although it might be, technically).

I just don't feel like some scrote poking me with what could be a rubber knife and what could be a bayonet he bought at salute and brought airsofting because he's a ****ing spa.

I should differentiate of course between games with experienced players, and your average sunday skirmish. I'd be okay playing a game where the stuff is done properly and stuff is checked. However, your average sunday skirmish has slightly less stringent standards, and you're more likely to get some mongoloid sleeve-chewer poking you with his mammy's best bread knife.

MerryDespot · 25-05-2010 10:01PM

That's the crux of the matter right there for me Gerrowadat - and agreed, with players who aren't going to take the piss it'd be grand. And again this goes to Doc's point about not looking at this without taking into account the fact that sites will monitor and implement their rules - but I guess there's always going to be the Fúcktard Factor.

General Grobel · 25-05-2010 10:08PM

Lads, its a ****ing game. I understand the argument against rubber knives and all but this kind of long, drawn out discussions is starting to suck the life out of the sport. What happened to all the buzz and the craic?

Malone1994 · 25-05-2010 10:42PM

General Grobel wrote: »

Lads, its a ****ing game. I understand the argument against rubber knives and all but this kind of long, drawn out discussions is starting to suck the life out of the sport. What happened to all the buzz and the craic?

They had a discussion about it.... :P jk
I think a test game should be organized, just to see how it fairs.
And I don't think it would take as long to check if the knife would be safe for play.
A rule though would need to be no stabbing at all or putting the knife near another players throat or neck. Only tabbing the blade on the players shoulder, arm or leg or sliding the flat of the blade on the player.
Maybe we should see how things are done abroad, Maybe someone else has made a good compromise for the use of rubber training knifes.

Inari · 25-05-2010 11:22PM

This thread is amusing. People are talking about the knife situation as if it's incomparable to airsoft itself. The exact arguments are Joe Duffy's finest ones against airsoft itself.

With proper rules & enforcement of those rules (marshalling) there is no problems with using knives.

Every device has to be chrono'd, so it wouldn't take much to check over 'other' equipment, such as grenades, knives etc

Witcher · 26-05-2010 01:00AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Thats the sort of atittude that makes me roll my eyes at the topic, and it seems to be the main focus of all these debates on using knifes

I never said I'd assault anyone, I'd really have no problem with someone using a knife on me, but using the shoulder tap is easier and causes less confusion, its grand to say "tap them with the knife" but little Jimmy down the back probably didnt hear and will come up behind someone with his €2 rubber knife and run it across their throat and get lamped..who's fault is it then? The guy who lamped him or Jimmy for using the knife in the first place?

All I'm saying is it could happen and you can say "it won't, it won't" but given that I've seen people (and I'm sure everyone has) who didn't listen to the respawn rules/game rules/eye protection rules and so causes a problem and but all it takes is little Jimmy to miss the knife briefing and use that knife as above and its game over for him.

Hivemind187 · 26-05-2010 10:28AM

Been a martial artist.

Been a LARP'er.

Been a weapons enthusiast for a long time and still teach some melee stuff from time to time.

Been an airsofter since this all kicked off in 2006.

Been through the IAA chair.

Been a marshall.

I've written and run games that many of you have played at.

There are three very simple things to note about all of this.

1) Going to an airsoft game you are consenting to being struck with BB's not being approached with a knife-like object. Just as the average person in the street does not expect to see you walking into Cafe Sol with a Kalashnikov, the average airsofter does not except you to come charging at them with a fixed bayonet. Therefore, they have not consented to such action. Under that circumstance it can be (and would be) considered assault upon your physical person. Contrary to Doc's assertion that you neednt worry about getting your head kicked in by someone were you to try this I can assure you that there is a small, but rather high profile list or players who would, very quickly, respond violently to such things. Myself included.

2) I have thrown people out of games and even the venue for showing up with actual blades strapped to their thighs. Once you make it ok for the rubber knives there are muppets who will think, "well if a rubber one is ok, a real one is fine because I'm ****ing Rambo and I know how to use it". The problem for a marshal is how do tell the difference between a real knife and a plastic knife when it's sheathed? We've all played with this kind of idiot too - the Highlander type, get upset when a marshal finally throws him out for cheating and then threatens to "****ing kill you in the car park mate!" (thats a quote).

3) Ask any LARP'er how difficult it is to get people to pull their blows when they are starting out in rubber sword. Ask any martial artist who trains with weapons how difficult it is to learn to pull your blow at the last moment to avoid causing injury. There are more injuries sustained during practice with these tools than in their competitive use because they are difficult to learn how to control. As Gerrout has said, the average airsofter is not the sharpest at the best of times (adrenaline, righteous indignation, machismo etc) making it very difficult to trust everyone to use the tool appropriately.

There is something to be said for the "stop whinging" argument, there is a lot of nappy-wearing-rather-have-a-cup-of-tea-than-go-back-out-in-the-dark-and-cold in Irish airsoft but this is a game about illusion tempered by safety. I would love to be able to use rubber katana's or foam nunchucks in the field to batter people when I run out of rounds but it's simply not a good idea. Rubber knives, LARP knives or dead-edged (steel blades with no cutting edge) knives are just adding an unpredictable and dangerous element to the game.

tadcan · 26-05-2010 11:32AM

As a Lrper just starting in airsoft my first thought was, 'wouldn't' it be cool to have rubber knives for extra realism/coolness.

Having read the arguments, it seems not having them is the safest way. In Lrp you are consenting to be hit with rubber weapons. Almost everybody has one and the rules can be followed. In airsoft they would be infrequently used enforcing rules and training is harder.

Having a knife competency in my opinion wouldn't work. The people who train for weapon comp, check weapons for safety are experienced Lrpers, who themselves have received training to do that job. Asking a airsoft Marshall/site manager to adjudicate in something that they have little experience in is not practical.

On the other hand hearing the comments that knife kills could lead to being punched is unsettling. It makes it seem that there is a latent aggression undercurrent in the hobby. Not sure if I would feel comfortable doing a 'knife kill' with my hand.

Inari · 26-05-2010 12:36PM

The problem isn't with consent, as that can be placed in the waivers that you have to sign. The problem is with the added physical element with the "knife kill" where people may play a little bit too physically. But that comes down to proper rules and proper enforcement.

Realistically, if it's measured and controlled right then there is no problem.

tadcan · 26-05-2010 01:02PM

Inari wrote: »

Realistically, if it's measured and controlled right then there is no problem.

What the experienced airsofters seem to be arguing is that it to difficult to control. That the chance of someone taking it the wrong way and over reacting either as the receiver of a 'kill' from a rubber knife or as the 'killer' is to high to justify there inclusion.

Ok consent can be written into a waiver, but reaction to a situation is based on training. I guess by consent I meant something more general. The basic concept of a Lrp is, you fight with rubber weapons. The basic concept of airsoft is you are hit with BB's.

In Lrp newbies are shown how to pull their blows, don't stab and generally fight safely. The level of training and education needed seems disproportionate to the level of use.

Perhaps some centre's and groups would like to do some test games which include rubber knives. The impression I get that many think its more trouble then its worth. So some test games can be used to see what kind of rules and guidelines can be developed in context to airsoft.

Inari · 26-05-2010 02:42PM

You see, that's what I'm talking about with regard to proper rules. The rules could be "Tap on shoulder with flat edge to get knife kill" so that there's no physical reaction involved. I know if someone put their arm around my neck strangle-style, I'd either elbow or flip them just from reaction, not even considering aggression. But if someone tapped my shoulder, it's a 100% different reaction.

As Doc said, it all comes down to proper rules. That way it avoids the physical reactions, can be done with/without knife. Inproper use results in warning. Further misuse = sitting out for game, and more = ejected from the site.

Stonewolf · 26-05-2010 03:55PM

tadcan wrote: »

As a Lrper just starting in airsoft my first thought was, 'wouldn't' it be cool to have rubber knives for extra realism/coolness.

Having read the arguments, it seems not having them is the safest way. In Lrp you are consenting to be hit with rubber weapons. Almost everybody has one and the rules can be followed. In airsoft they would be infrequently used enforcing rules and training is harder.

Having a knife competency in my opinion wouldn't work. The people who train for weapon comp, check weapons for safety are experienced Lrpers, who themselves have received training to do that job. Asking a airsoft Marshall/site manager to adjudicate in something that they have little experience in is not practical.

On the other hand hearing the comments that knife kills could lead to being punched is unsettling. It makes it seem that there is a latent aggression undercurrent in the hobby. Not sure if I would feel comfortable doing a 'knife kill' with my hand.

I think you're muddying the waters a bit here Tad, nobody is suggesting we start using blade surrogates LRP style. What we've been discussing is the use of fake blades to tap someone with and complete a loadout visually without running into problems of inappropriate usage.

Puding · 26-05-2010 04:08PM

tbh i could stand by the argument of completing an impression, but i could count on the hands the number of loadouts/impressions that i;ve seen in ireland that could justify a knife on grounds of accuracy

Killinator · 26-05-2010 05:15PM

I carry a bayonet replica for my Gerry WW2 gear, anyone who has ever seen it has only ever commented on how awesome it was and never mentioned dangers or extreme violence, I sometimes carry a rubber knife with my more modern gear,
I have never used either and dont see the opportunity likely to arise too often or at all( ie: getting behind someone close enough to knife kill/tap on shoulder)
There seems to be a concern of people rushing a 100 yards in a mad bayonet charge to plunge a blade into peoples chest and twist till they stop twitching, COD style knifing, slit throats, and Trinity style knife throwing abilities, these are the kind of things I would expect to see as a headline in a rag top!!!
If someone does charge at you then more than likely you'll be alert to their presence sooner than they reach you,
I mean has anyone here been slahed, stabbed, gutted or bayonetted by a looner with slight pyshopathic tendancies, fine it could happen, but that same looner is as likely to sneak up behind you and crack your skull with the butstock of his rifle,
Why use a knife you say? erm....it looks cool, and I find it hard to draw the line on when something looking good in airsoft is not a good enough excuse, thats why we have people wearing helmets with NVG mounts and no nightvision units, accurate comms units when a walkie talkie will do, blowback aegs, full metal aegs becasue day-glow aegs work just as well, etc,etc...
People are too concerned about what could go wrong,its this kind of thinking that had the government trying to ban aegs and gbbs instead of stoping the munters using them for crime, had we all agreed with that perspective then none of us would be able to play airsoft(legally anyway),

And as a final note, I have had a tooth shot out, so I do have some experience with the injury(slight as it may be) side of airsoft,
Just like fake knives, airsoft CAN be dangerous, but when used appropriately then it will NEVER be dangerous.

Well thats my 5cents.........becasue 2cents isnt valued as highly these days:)

Knife/melee rules?

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