Knife/melee rules?

Malone1994

Firstly I don't mean actual knife and fist fighting.

I've heard alot about knife rules in America where say if you get the drop on a player and rather than saying "bang you dead"(which could give you away to any nearby enemies) you would either tap him twice on the shoulder or use a rubber training knife to perform a silent kill.

Has this been thought of before or has the DOJ banned there use or something?
And here's a link which kinda explains what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt-a8WJ4BHI&playnext_from=TL&videos=9tcZVsEflhQ&feature=sub

Witcher

Malone1994 wrote: »

Firstly I don't mean actual knife and fist fighting.

I've heard alot about knife rules in America where say if you get the drop on a player and rather than saying "bang you dead"(which could give you away to any nearby enemies) you would either tap him twice on the shoulder or use a rubber training knife to perform a silent kill.

Has this been thought of before or has the DOJ banned there use or something?
And here's a link which kinda explains what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt-a8WJ4BHI&playnext_from=TL&videos=9tcZVsEflhQ&feature=sub

Going all out with the knife is a bit much, just tap them on the shoulder and say knife kill instead.:)

Malone1994

Yeah But I haven't heard of a site using rules like this. So just thought I might see what the deal was with 'em.

Stonewolf

"Knife kill" is a pretty standard call across most Irish sites for which you have to touch the enemy. It's far better than "Bang kill" which on any good site will only be an optional courtesy call.

I have yet to see an Irish site that allows any kind of fake or real bladed weaponry onto the field and at the moment (even as a larper) I prefer it that way.

MerryDespot

I think there's a lot of talk about all this sort of stuff at the moment.
Maybe it's that people are starting to get out now that the weather has improved:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055919288

And also hit taking:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055918961

Personally I'd be as likely to lamp someone who came at me with a knife - rubber or otherwise - just on reflex. I'd say most people would be the same! As Blay says a tap on the shoulder is good enough...

Malone1994

I agree a tap on the shoulder would be safer and cheaper
Which sites do do knife kill rules? (I mean the tap on the shoulder, just to clarify)

Puding

be it rubber or not those things can still be nasty, i would imagine ( hope ) all sites would stop such items on the skirmish field, i know the guys in cork at times have had to ask people to leave rubber bayonets in there car

MerryDespot

Agreed Puding - just call the knife kill. All you need is some gowel trying to to knife you with his crappy rubber bayonet to put you in a fouler for the rest of the day.

MagicIRL

As mentioned above - A rubber knife is more dangerous for you. I know I'd smash someone if they came at me with a knife.

Jimkil

Have you guys not noticed that Airsoft is a dangerous sport?. I bought one of the crappy knives to be used as a knife and not a bayonet. If your good enough to get close enough to put your hand on another players shoulder you deserve the right to use your knife.
You have more chance of tripping over something and getting hurt that being hurt with one of those in the right hands. Also how much did you spend trying to look the like the real thing, and your going to leave this bit out.

Puding

Have you guys not noticed that Airsoft is a dangerous sport

actually it is a very safe activity, its because in its essence airsoft is a none contact sport, a knife fake or not is by its nature means airsoft develops a contact element that is not needed

as other have said a rubber knight still has the potential to do damage far more so than an airsoft device when i come down to it

im all for being accurate with impressions and i do have a rubber akm bayonet but that is left at home

Witcher

Jimkil wrote: »

Have you guys not noticed that Airsoft is a dangerous sport?. I bought one of the crappy knives to be used as a knife and not a bayonet. If your good enough to get close enough to put your hand on another players shoulder you deserve the right to use your knife.
You have more chance of tripping over something and getting hurt that being hurt with one of those in the right hands. Also how much did you spend trying to look the like the real thing, and your going to leave this bit out.

You have a right to lunge at someone with a knife albeit a fake one?

So when you use the knife and someone puts your teeth down your throat will you still think its ok?

The shoulder tap is the best all round, avoids confusion and aggression.

gerrowadat

It's all about consent. When your average skirmisher goes onto the field, they consent to being hit with BBs.

I don't consent to being poked with a pointy plastic object, anywhere, or manhandled in a way that's not set out beforehand.

Aside from the actual technicalities of it, even the most timid of players are likely to take it as an actual attack and go for you. This is why paintball sites have a minimum engagement distance -- the red mist. If I get a nasty poke in the ribs from some dude, he'll probably get an elbow to the face before I realise what's going on. It all escalates from there.

Aside from that, it's adding a grey area to the game. If you say 'no physical contact', then your average airsofter, who let's face it isn't the sharpest tool in the box, isn't going to be able to claim "I thought it was okay", when their idea of okay doesn't match with anyone else.

Even with the no contact rule, I've seen people dragged several metres, shoved through doorways, and have heard of people being dragged through windows. Once you introduce a grey area it all goes to ****e.

thermo

i don't see the differance between using a hand or training knife to get a knife kill, if the "killer" is an over zelus muppet the "victim" could be hurt either way!
i've seen a bloke get a judo chop to the throat in a "knife kill",,,,,, not pleasent!

MerryDespot

thermo wrote: »

i don't see the differance between using a hand or training knife to get a knife kill, if the "killer" is an over zelus muppet the "victim" could be hurt either way!
i've seen a bloke get a judo chop to the throat in a "knife kill",,,,,, not pleasent!

Did you see the dude who got 'knifed' with that judo chop turn around and nut the muppet who did it?

thermo

MerryDespot wrote: »

Did you see the dude who got 'knifed' with that judo chop turn around and nut the muppet who did it?

he was too busy learning how to breath through his ears,,,,,,

TheDoc

Have to say I lean towards both sides.

I can understand the side that expresses it is un neccesary and possibly frightining or dangerous to be using rubber knives.

On the other hand I cant help feel its all for a bunch of pansy caring slackjaw ******s and we need to man up.

Two extreme sides of the arguement and I agree with both, yet I'd be more leaning towards having it allowed.

I dont agree one iota to the notion that the visual impact of a knife is scary, frightening or may cause some mental trauma to a player. We run around with guns, and dress in camo, and scream across a field.

I think you get my point.

I dont like this notion of" if someone stuck me with a rubber knive I'd nut them, and theyd deserve it" Thats pretty much scum talk..and anyone with that notion shouldnt step near an airsoft field. Thats probably the most annoying factor that makes me want to use one, to see if its all just talk from loudmouths.

At no point am I condoning you going with a rubbery knife and stabbing someone with it numerous times to simulate a kill. But I dont see the problem with having the blades flat surface pressed against someones hip, or on the shoulder, to simulate the kill. At the end of the day, its the same physical motion and contact used by the hand, except with my hand I can do it alot quicker, where as I'd have to draw a knife.

Plus the fact it would just look good and authentive on some load outs. People being told to remove their rubber knives from WW2 and vietnam loadouts wrecks my noodle beyond belief

Anyway it seems a big no for now, but I just dont like arguements against it, they arnt in anyway shape or form realistic of clear. It seems to be always

" No you cant use a knife, cause if you stuck me with id I'd burst ya"

Which in truth is not the case, you only have to get into one altercation with an airsofter and 99% of the time they stand their and **** a brick.

I dont believe for one second i nthe arguement that the visual impact of a knife causes any sort of distress, like I said your in a game with guns, its really no excuse.

This also goes for the arguement of " well if you were stabbed you might understand". Do we use that same arguement for " if you were shot your understand".

I've seen people dragged several metres, shoved through doorways, and have heard of people being dragged through windows.

I have seen this too obviusly and its mostly milsim games. But its been relative to usually being a man down and being dragged by a medic. This is part and parcel, and if your not comfortable with being dragged to safety to get revived....I dont really have an anwser to be fair..

But if the above in relation to someone running up and grabbing an opponent out through a window, thats absurd.

This debate will probably rage on for some time and I cant ever see it being changed cause its a very narrow minded debate.

With some clear outlined rules beforehand how can it be anymore intrusive then being shot i nthe tooth with a BB?

I can fully understand and outlaw on the use of someone coming up behind a target, and placing the knife to their throat , that could get messy.

I wouldnt be a fan of throwing them either, well I would, but lets not go there

( although I would mention I had this happen to me in predator, and found it to be pretty much awesome, I literally shat a brick, but in my mind it was kudos to the guy who did, not me having a hissy fit cause he got the jump on me)

I dont see the problem with using one , flat blade up on the shoulder, arms, legs. I wouldnt see the problem with using the "tip" pressed gently against a target body armour or tac vest.


If its about consent,

I don't consent to being shot 50 times from a couple of feet, when 1 will do.
I don't consent to being shot on full auto in a CQB enviroment, when its perfectly plausable to be shot by 1.
I don't consent to playing with people who use hicaps, because they have an advantage on me and promote full auto play.
I dont consent to playing with people with ACU, cause it looks ****.

Its really nothing to do with consent. There is a MIGHTY AMOUNT of normal gaming rules that I wouldnt like to give my consent to, but it would just cause a fuss.

This seems like a case of people getting a bit over mammyish, and dissapointing when its in a game like ours.

But alas, milsim is always, and will always be the testing ground for these sort of things, since the vast majority of milsim go without a hitch and have a low amount of dip****s.

A milsim event should defo introduce them for a session with some strict revised ruling on how to use them and see how it goes.

Everyone wont rush out to by them, most people will prefer the transition to sidearm, most people will prefer still using their hand.

But for those of us who have massive Rambo replica rubber knifes, we would definitely appreciate getting to use it

TheDoc

Blay wrote: »

So when you use the knife and someone puts your teeth down your throat will you still think its ok?

Thats the sort of atittude that makes me roll my eyes at the topic, and it seems to be the main focus of all these debates on using knifes,

By that same thought

So when someone puts 50 rounds into my mush from 10 feet away and I put their teeth through their head, will you still think thats ok?

No its not, why? Cause that talk isnt for an airsoft field, but for a field of nackers.

But also because for someone reason although getting hit in the face is nasty, especially repeatadly, its just accepted and its part and parcel.

Bit **** to me.

What would you prefer?

Me unleashing 20 rounds into your back from ten feet?
Me unsheating a rubber knife, walking 9 feet and tapping you o nthe shoulder with it?

I think people get the impression that you put a rubber knife into someones hand in airsoft they are going to start slicing people up all over the place.

MerryDespot

TheDoc wrote: »

This seems like a case of people getting a bit over mammyish, and dissapointing when its in a game like ours.

But alas, milsim is always, and will always be the testing ground for these sort of things, since the vast majority of milsim go without a hitch and have a low amount of dip****s.

A milsim event should defo introduce them for a session with some strict revised ruling on how to use them and see how it goes.

Everyone wont rush out to by them, most people will prefer the transition to sidearm, most people will prefer still using their hand.

But for those of us who have massive Rambo replica rubber knifes, we would definitely appreciate getting to use it

Do you possess such a replica Doc?

I agree that a milsim game is more likely to lead to this not causing a problem - and I've no real issue with knife kills - just some over eager muppet getting carried away.
But no, wait, that won't happen...
Err, yeah it will. The same way some fecktard goes at someone with a highcap on full auto at close range - you know, just because.

Personally I get the man up thing - and I agree. But not everyone will be as ok with it - or as reasonable if they're at the pointy end of said over zealous muppet with his pretty knife toy.

Do I think that having to supress the potential overreaction on being on the receiving end of a plonker trying to knife you between the ribs is big man talk - no, just an opinion. Have I ever decked someone airsofting? Nope - of course not. That's not what the sport is about and it has no place on the field.
Have I wanted to? Yip, on occasion. I could see the potential for trouble with it - don't see the problem with people who know what they're doing using knife kill - for example your recent unforgiven sneaky attack at the May bank holiday event in HRTA - notice how you were able to do a knife kill without feeling the need to take Defenderdude's head off in the process. Would I trust you coming at me with a replice/toy knife Daniel? Yes, despite your demonstrative sneaky pedigree and propensity for evil, yea, I'd be ok with that. But that's because I know you'd not be a sh1t about it. Can't say that about everyone.

MerryDespot

TheDoc wrote: »

Me unleashing 20 rounds into your back from ten feet?
Me unsheating a rubber knife, walking 9 feet and tapping you o nthe shoulder with it?

I think people get the impression that you put a rubber knife into someones hand in airsoft they are going to start slicing people up all over the place.

You see - I'm totally ok with that Doc - because I know you wouldn't do it in a sh1tty way or try to put a fecking hole in my ribcage while doing it.

As you've described - totally cool.

Puding

are you running for office or somthing? or do you just have a lot of time on your hands at the moment :P everythings seems to be an essay at the moment

when where talking about comedy rubber knives hears that flop over, the ones i;ve seen and have are solid and if you stabe someone it will cause damage, yes they do not have sharp edges but im not worried about that

yes we consent or do not consent to be shot, but those devices are tested at the start of the day, there is no way there doing to cause considerable damage to myself or any other person on the field

are you going to check everyone fake knifes at the start of the day ? because all it takes is for one idiot to take a real one to begin with, and if you do not think that sort of person is out there you live a sheltered life, tapping someone on the shoulder or just saying knife kill is relatively passive, to introduce a fake knife just adds an aggressive confrontation and all it takes is for someone to get there blood up, we already see to much aggression at times

there have been big arguments in the past about theme and black ground and using real work events and storys and stuff like that, and the point was well argued by those involved that although that sort of thing could be used there ws no need to use it, for me the same argument stands, although you can use fake knifes and stuff why on earth do you need to use them, in an open skirmish environment there is no way to remove all the idouts from the mix

TheDoc

Fair point, its about trust and responability.

But that has to be nurtured and grown. When I went to buy my first airsoft gun, were my parents happy when I got home to see me with a G36c? Abso-****ing-lutely not.

First thing I did with it was shoot 4 of my ma's garden gnomes to bits out the back garden.

But I read boards, went to my first skirmish and met some cool heads, and the responsability was nurtured and grown in me, and then my parents trust grew in me, and now I could park a panzer tank in the garden and they wouldnt worry bout me blowing up a house ( might worry bout my mental health but alas)

We have had some changes come around down the years, be it pyros on some sites, the advent of grenades etc, and yes their are morons..but they are a minority. The point is letting is slip in gradually.

Within the first week of zoxna grenades being a big thing I got clocked on the forhead with one, know what I mean. I see people through those thunder BB's like throwing bricks at a protest. It doesnt make me call for their removal, it just makes me shake my head at the amount of ****ters that use them.

I'd say there is a higher probability of someone butting another with their gun or a pistol whipping after an arguement, or piece of play deemed inappropriate, then someone getting into a fight with me if I tap them with a rubber knife on the shoulder : /

Its about trust, maturity and responability. And they cant just be throwin in at a certain level, they need to be expanded, grown and nutured. We see now there are some developements in the grenades area, not allowed indoors ( defying the whole point of the bloody things) among other things, and its not AS bad as it once was.

I just cant fathom the problem. Like if tomorrow HRTa said they would allow knifes, I still probably wouldnt even bring one. And I doubt any of the regulars would, I doubt it would even be a big change. But it would be a nice option to have, and knowing in advance its allowed and the rules, I cant see how anyone would have a problem taking a hit from them, unless your a spa

Puding

but in an open skirmish environment with walk on sites can not leave it to the maturity of players because tbh comment sence and maturity in airsoft is not that common

im afraid you have to plan for the lowest common denominator

and knives by there nature are a confrontational aggressive instrument,

TheDoc

***post above was in reply to merry..yours is here puding :P***

Puding wrote: »

are you running for office or somthing? or do you just have a lot of time on your hands at the moment :P everythings seems to be an essay at the moment

Work gets pretty boring, makes the time go by, feel free to go back to your pop up books


Valid points as always, but I think its a bit sensationalist and forseeing a problem for the sake of it.

By the same measure, I could kick a hissy fit about gas rifles and the new incoming technologies allowing fps control on the fly. By the same arguements, you cant test them every second of the day, and they can cause a signifcantly higher amount of damage.

But as points I've raised above, I've just got faith it wont be abused. Extremely nieve I know, but I'm well past the point in airsoft of giving a **** and giving everyone the third degree, I'll take you as being honest and genuine unless its blatantly obvious your not.

I dont see how the introduction of a knife would infact increase aggresive behaviour, its something I cannot grasp. What different is me tapping you on the shoulder with my hand or with a knifes flat edge? Nothing...

And I assume your thinking " Well if theres no difference, why would you need it?"

Simple fact is as youve stated, I don't. There is no absolute necesity to have it. Nor is there a requirement for midcaps..camo, helmets, expensive tacvests, or pretty much anything besides a clone rifle, a hicap and some BB's.

But its something that perhaps to me might provide some practical use, or might make me feel that bit more authentic having it on my loadout. Its down to that personal opinion and craving for your kit. So by that regard I think its perfectly valid to wish or require having a fake knife apart of your loadout.

Still yet to come across the arguement that convinces me why they should not be allowed. Its not even about convcining, I'm yet to see a valid point that shows why site owners arnt allowing them, or was it a case there was a thread on boards donkeys ago and everyone took it as the norm?

I've seen plenty of players have knifes removed from their kit ( albeit never friendly, its always hostile as if they just had a bag of heroin on their chest) and they jsut accept it, I've never seen a player ask why, cause I'm pretty certain there isnt a marshall out there that could give a reason to accept the decision.

TheDoc

Puding wrote: »

about grenades, sorry the first thing that happened on the sites that i play when they turned up was they could only be used under arm, because people got aggressive and cared away and started throwing them massive distances with the chance on injury

That wasnt the way up in these parts, Red Barn gives a briefing on their use alright, I usually dont even pay attention to what people are doing with their grenades because they are a heap load of ****e, and everyone knows my feelings on this blast radius crap ....

And I getcha bout factoring for the lowest common denominator. The point I'm trying to make is that with EVERYTHING else it seems ok, but with knives its not.

Zoxna grenades for example are a pretty hefty chunk of metal. I'm sure a marshall might intervene if they see someone mill it, but theres no preventitive measure. Its assumed people will use them properly.

Gas pistols ( some designs) have the ability to take co2, or maybe just on standard shoot well over 1 joule. I cant remember the last time I got my pistol chronoed, its a rare day. But its assumed, that everyone has a sub 1 joule pistol. Theres no preventative measure there.

Gas rifles. On the fly fps adjustment that run on co2, probably have the potential of firing up to 3 joules courtesy of a few I got to shoot offgame in Take Aim. could easily be done in the field from what I saw, yet an initial chronographing is done, and if the player grabs attention, maybe a second one. Don't see another measure, cause its just assumed.

Post lunch gaming? Maybe ill swop in a beef-o-tronic spring, its grand cause I wont get chronoed after lunch. Its assumed im using the same setup.

Those above arnt sensationalist, they are absolutely 100% plausible. But they "sound" sensationalist and its the same way I view the knife thing.

Preventative measures are being put into place, without there ever been an incident or problem. The trust and assumptions are there for EVERY other part of airsoft, but when it comes to this tiny point, thats not given, and the only ASSUMPTION is that its going to turn into michael jackson bad video with gore.

MerryDespot

TheDoc wrote: »

I dont see how the introduction of a knife would infact increase aggresive behaviour, its something I cannot grasp. What different is me tapping you on the shoulder with my hand or with a knifes flat edge? Nothing...

And I assume your thinking " Well if theres no difference, why would you need it?"

Simple fact is as youve stated, I don't. There is no absolute necesity to have it. Nor is there a requirement for midcaps..camo, helmets, expensive tacvests, or pretty much anything besides a clone rifle, a hicap and some BB's.

Ok Doc - fair point well made.
Kit tends to take off - I started out with the clone, highcap and bbs like most people (never took the head off a gnome ... but that's just because there were a. no gnomes around mine and b. I didn't think of it!:D). Kit has expanded since to the type of thing you describe - but while I feel a need to have vests, decent rifle, mids etc I just don't have the same drive to have a replica knife. But to each their own.

I'm not being alarmist (posting here out of boredom more than any desire to make a big point...), just think that not the level of maturity you're talking about is at the end of the process/road (whatever) - and all the way along that road there's potential grief for site owners, players who play with a bit of respect and not sure that the difference between a knife tap on the shoulder or you going "knife kill, knife kill" is worth the grief.
But, as I said - just an opinion.

Puding

the issue is with a knife the natural action is to stab with it, it is to copy call of duty stuff like that, if as you said all your going to do is tap someone on the shoulder then why use a knife in the first place

you seem to see this as a affront to you and people you play with maturity and respectability, it is not, i would have no problem with a large number of people using them, the problem is the minority

with an aeg this minority is still an issue but the risks are seriously limited, you can not seriously injure someone with an aeg, you can seriously injure someone with a fake knife

you can not validate one area of concern my bringing up other issues like fps control for example, each one has to be looked at and managed on there own, you you start validating one danger but saying it is alright because your an also do this this and this just leads to ruin

you say a lot in your posts that you would only use it to tap someone on a shoulder ( my instant thought would be if your only doing to tap someone why do you need the knife ), fair enough but its not you that is the issue, it is the person that uses it to 'stab' someone else, or pretend to slit someone throat etc etc , the issue is never the majority of sensible players but the minority

Stonewolf

I wouldn't have a problem being knife-killed with a fake knife in a responsible manner. FFS I'm a larper, I have a big foam-latex sword (which will definitely ruin your day in a trip to hospital kind of way if I stab you hard with it).

I always thought the problem was people inappropriately taking the real deal into play which is why I'm against fake knives on general principles. If you were to introduce them then you'd need to have rules about their usage and what's acceptable and if there are rules then the rules need to be explained to and understood by anyone playing. I don't mind them being used under controlled circumstances on sites by the right people but the problem is and always will be the idiot factor of a few morons ruining it for the rest of us.

I propose we carry over a concept from the LRP world where bowmen and claw users have to have a competency cert. A site can define rules governing the availability and rules regarding knives and then anyone who wants to bring one onto the field needs to have a comp cert which shows the person is known to the site and has understood and agrees to play by the knife rules. Your competency cert could be for a fixed period or indefinitely and a penalty (a ban of some specified length and revoking of your competency) levied for a breach. Non-cert players could continue to use the knife-kill rule as normal but certified players can bring their toys.

TheDoc

Puding wrote: »

the issue is with a knife the natural action is to stab with it, it is to copy call of duty stuff like that, if as you said all your going to do is tap someone on the shoulder then why use a knife in the first place

you seem to see this as a affront to you and people you play with maturity and respectability, it is not, i would have no problem with a large number of people using them, the problem is the minority

with an aeg this minority is still an issue but the risks are seriously limited, you can not seriously injure someone with an aeg, you can seriously injure someone with a fake knife

you can not validate one area of concern my bringing up other issues like fps control for example, each one has to be looked at and managed on there own, you you start validating one danger but saying it is alright because your an also do this this and this just leads to ruin

you say a lot in your posts that you would only use it to tap someone on a shoulder ( my instant thought would be if your only doing to tap someone why do you need the knife ), fair enough but its not you that is the issue, it is the person that uses it to 'stab' someone else, or pretend to slit someone throat etc etc , the issue is never the majority of sensible players but the minority

I've a confession to make, I saw the thread title, and after staring at a clock for thirty minutes thought I'd jump onto the obvious weakened side of the debate and see what could get going, I'm happy I achieved a decent enough chat

I dont take it as a denial to me personally, like I said I probably wouldnt even use one. I just find it hard comprahending why there is such a strong dislike for them.

And I do think its plausable to compare this issue to the other daily occurances of airsoft, because wether be it not with the majority or minority it is us making assumptions.

We are assuming that the introduction of a knife will cause some sort of incident that would make those who sanctioned it look stupid. We are however not factoring in how a site owner may lay down some rules, or how players may react to been giving a new tool to use, and perhaps wanting to act in the best interest of everyone, to ensure that tool stays there.

The simple fact is that there is EVERY possability of me cranking a rifle's FPS up on the field taking a shot at 500fps and cranking it back down. Now even if we take me as being me, I'd probably get the benefit of the doubt as said already here " A its doc, he wouldnt do that", thats making assumptions. But we are starting to move into the other spider webs.

Theres also the arugement of how it could hurt, something I'm not 100% sure I agree with. I have two movie prop knifes for example, that are very softly tipped but rigid down the blade, but when the blade is pressed, the blade retracts into the "hilt", as if to simulate the blade going in.

Cost me 30 euros each, could literally, not hurt you unless you were cotton wool in the rain. Although I understand your point about the tough rubber ones. But the one mentioned above, I could press against the back of your head and it would be nore more pressure then me tapping you with my finger.

thermo

Stonewolf wrote: »

I propose we carry over a concept from the LRP world where bowmen and claw users have to have a competency cert. A site can define rules governing the availability and rules regarding knives and then anyone who wants to bring one onto the field needs to have a comp cert which shows the person is known to the site and has understood and agrees to play by the knife rules. Your competency cert could be for a fixed period or indefinitely and a penalty (a ban of some specified length and revoking of your competency) levied for a breach. Non-cert players could continue to use the knife-kill rule as normal but certified players can bring their toys.

im curious as to how one would get a cert? like who says its ok for mr.X. to use a rubber knife? also how does a site know if mr. X in the previous week has had a suspension of his cert?
not meaning to nit -pick but maybe you could explain how it works in the LARP world?

TheDoc

thermo wrote: »

ibut maybe you could explain how it works in the LARP world?

Eldoran The Cert Keeper cannot be tricked foolish boy!!!


Eldoran is actually Edgar, a 29 year old DIT graduate who posses an out standing ability to file

Puding

i do agree with you the fps issue, i have previous raised concerns with this area with the raise in ptw use , gbb and such but in my eyes you deal with all the issues, one danger should not be removed because there happens to still be some left, you deal with them all and address them all

there are lot of different types of knifes the ones you describe are stage props and would remove a lot of the risk, if you where to bring in a rules that only that type of knife could be used then ok, but that means you then have to check them all before games, because again all it takes is one idiot. the problem is that there not all that safe

thermo

TheDoc wrote: »

Eldoran The Cert Keeper cannot be tricked

]

and who is he when he's at home?

Stonewolf

thermo wrote: »

im curious as to how one would get a cert? like who says its ok for mr.X. to use a rubber knife? also how does a site know if mr. X in the previous week has had a suspension of his cert?
not meaning to nit -pick but maybe you could explain how it works in the LARP world?

In the LRP world it's controlled by the game organisers and their sanctioning body (the people who own the rules and setting). Usually certs are given out at main events (the sanctioning bodys own events) by staff after a brief test (mostly practical). At an LRP event all weapons are checked before play (just as we chrono our guns) and if you have a weapon requiring a cert you'll be asked if you have one.

In airsoft a site could give out its own certs with staff members instructed in the relevant practices and maintain a list of who has breached their cert and is banned just like any other person the site has issue with. Alternatively you could try and make the IAA take over administration of it but I doubt they'd be willing to commit scarce resources to it.

Jimkil

Got a little board reading so i skipped on a bit.
Airsoft is a funny sport if you want to call a sport. I was heavily involved in one for a few years with all its complexities. The analyzing of old constitutions, by-laws and re righting of same would make grown man cry. Airsoft is not a sport and does not fall under the same kind of rules and regulations. Its a grouping of privateers with a common goal (profit) offering militaristic style gaming to all who turn up. So if the masses want to indulge them selfs in rubber knife carrying actives so be it. Its war after all, and there are no rules expect those of the site owner and the government so please make yourself aware of both before the start of play. So if you were to within reason knife kill you opponent, good on you but if he the proceeds to assault you he should be removed from the site never to return. Our biggest problem is the lack of proper training for players in the art of combat site saftey and respect to others and not rubber knives. Educated players make better killers.

OzCam

As Gerrout has mentioned, it's all about consent. Making contact with someone without their consent is technically an assault. We're consenting to being shot with BBS. I don't consent to being "killed" with a knife, rubber, foam or imaginary.

There's just too much that can go wrong. That's as good a reason as any to keep knives out of Irish airsoft. Like a lot of other ideas, it all sounds fine and dandy until someone ends up in court, or in hospital.

gerrowadat

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's assault (although it might be, technically).

I just don't feel like some scrote poking me with what could be a rubber knife and what could be a bayonet he bought at salute and brought airsofting because he's a ****ing spa.

I should differentiate of course between games with experienced players, and your average sunday skirmish. I'd be okay playing a game where the stuff is done properly and stuff is checked. However, your average sunday skirmish has slightly less stringent standards, and you're more likely to get some mongoloid sleeve-chewer poking you with his mammy's best bread knife.

MerryDespot

That's the crux of the matter right there for me Gerrowadat - and agreed, with players who aren't going to take the piss it'd be grand. And again this goes to Doc's point about not looking at this without taking into account the fact that sites will monitor and implement their rules - but I guess there's always going to be the Fúcktard Factor.

General Grobel

Lads, its a ****ing game. I understand the argument against rubber knives and all but this kind of long, drawn out discussions is starting to suck the life out of the sport. What happened to all the buzz and the craic?

Malone1994

General Grobel wrote: »

Lads, its a ****ing game. I understand the argument against rubber knives and all but this kind of long, drawn out discussions is starting to suck the life out of the sport. What happened to all the buzz and the craic?

They had a discussion about it.... :P jk
I think a test game should be organized, just to see how it fairs.
And I don't think it would take as long to check if the knife would be safe for play.
A rule though would need to be no stabbing at all or putting the knife near another players throat or neck. Only tabbing the blade on the players shoulder, arm or leg or sliding the flat of the blade on the player.
Maybe we should see how things are done abroad, Maybe someone else has made a good compromise for the use of rubber training knifes.

Inari

This thread is amusing. People are talking about the knife situation as if it's incomparable to airsoft itself. The exact arguments are Joe Duffy's finest ones against airsoft itself.

With proper rules & enforcement of those rules (marshalling) there is no problems with using knives.

Every device has to be chrono'd, so it wouldn't take much to check over 'other' equipment, such as grenades, knives etc

Witcher

TheDoc wrote: »

Thats the sort of atittude that makes me roll my eyes at the topic, and it seems to be the main focus of all these debates on using knifes

I never said I'd assault anyone, I'd really have no problem with someone using a knife on me, but using the shoulder tap is easier and causes less confusion, its grand to say "tap them with the knife" but little Jimmy down the back probably didnt hear and will come up behind someone with his €2 rubber knife and run it across their throat and get lamped..who's fault is it then? The guy who lamped him or Jimmy for using the knife in the first place?


All I'm saying is it could happen and you can say "it won't, it won't" but given that I've seen people (and I'm sure everyone has) who didn't listen to the respawn rules/game rules/eye protection rules and so causes a problem and but all it takes is little Jimmy to miss the knife briefing and use that knife as above and its game over for him.

Hivemind187

Been a martial artist.

Been a LARP'er.

Been a weapons enthusiast for a long time and still teach some melee stuff from time to time.

Been an airsofter since this all kicked off in 2006.

Been through the IAA chair.

Been a marshall.

I've written and run games that many of you have played at.

There are three very simple things to note about all of this.

1) Going to an airsoft game you are consenting to being struck with BB's not being approached with a knife-like object. Just as the average person in the street does not expect to see you walking into Cafe Sol with a Kalashnikov, the average airsofter does not except you to come charging at them with a fixed bayonet. Therefore, they have not consented to such action. Under that circumstance it can be (and would be) considered assault upon your physical person. Contrary to Doc's assertion that you neednt worry about getting your head kicked in by someone were you to try this I can assure you that there is a small, but rather high profile list or players who would, very quickly, respond violently to such things. Myself included.

2) I have thrown people out of games and even the venue for showing up with actual blades strapped to their thighs. Once you make it ok for the rubber knives there are muppets who will think, "well if a rubber one is ok, a real one is fine because I'm ****ing Rambo and I know how to use it". The problem for a marshal is how do tell the difference between a real knife and a plastic knife when it's sheathed? We've all played with this kind of idiot too - the Highlander type, get upset when a marshal finally throws him out for cheating and then threatens to "****ing kill you in the car park mate!" (thats a quote).

3) Ask any LARP'er how difficult it is to get people to pull their blows when they are starting out in rubber sword. Ask any martial artist who trains with weapons how difficult it is to learn to pull your blow at the last moment to avoid causing injury. There are more injuries sustained during practice with these tools than in their competitive use because they are difficult to learn how to control. As Gerrout has said, the average airsofter is not the sharpest at the best of times (adrenaline, righteous indignation, machismo etc) making it very difficult to trust everyone to use the tool appropriately.

There is something to be said for the "stop whinging" argument, there is a lot of nappy-wearing-rather-have-a-cup-of-tea-than-go-back-out-in-the-dark-and-cold in Irish airsoft but this is a game about illusion tempered by safety. I would love to be able to use rubber katana's or foam nunchucks in the field to batter people when I run out of rounds but it's simply not a good idea. Rubber knives, LARP knives or dead-edged (steel blades with no cutting edge) knives are just adding an unpredictable and dangerous element to the game.

tadcan

As a Lrper just starting in airsoft my first thought was, 'wouldn't' it be cool to have rubber knives for extra realism/coolness.

Having read the arguments, it seems not having them is the safest way. In Lrp you are consenting to be hit with rubber weapons. Almost everybody has one and the rules can be followed. In airsoft they would be infrequently used enforcing rules and training is harder.

Having a knife competency in my opinion wouldn't work. The people who train for weapon comp, check weapons for safety are experienced Lrpers, who themselves have received training to do that job. Asking a airsoft Marshall/site manager to adjudicate in something that they have little experience in is not practical.

On the other hand hearing the comments that knife kills could lead to being punched is unsettling. It makes it seem that there is a latent aggression undercurrent in the hobby. Not sure if I would feel comfortable doing a 'knife kill' with my hand.

Inari

The problem isn't with consent, as that can be placed in the waivers that you have to sign. The problem is with the added physical element with the "knife kill" where people may play a little bit too physically. But that comes down to proper rules and proper enforcement.

Realistically, if it's measured and controlled right then there is no problem.

tadcan

Inari wrote: »

Realistically, if it's measured and controlled right then there is no problem.

What the experienced airsofters seem to be arguing is that it to difficult to control. That the chance of someone taking it the wrong way and over reacting either as the receiver of a 'kill' from a rubber knife or as the 'killer' is to high to justify there inclusion.

Ok consent can be written into a waiver, but reaction to a situation is based on training. I guess by consent I meant something more general. The basic concept of a Lrp is, you fight with rubber weapons. The basic concept of airsoft is you are hit with BB's.

In Lrp newbies are shown how to pull their blows, don't stab and generally fight safely. The level of training and education needed seems disproportionate to the level of use.

Perhaps some centre's and groups would like to do some test games which include rubber knives. The impression I get that many think its more trouble then its worth. So some test games can be used to see what kind of rules and guidelines can be developed in context to airsoft.

Inari

You see, that's what I'm talking about with regard to proper rules. The rules could be "Tap on shoulder with flat edge to get knife kill" so that there's no physical reaction involved. I know if someone put their arm around my neck strangle-style, I'd either elbow or flip them just from reaction, not even considering aggression. But if someone tapped my shoulder, it's a 100% different reaction.

As Doc said, it all comes down to proper rules. That way it avoids the physical reactions, can be done with/without knife. Inproper use results in warning. Further misuse = sitting out for game, and more = ejected from the site.

Stonewolf

tadcan wrote: »

As a Lrper just starting in airsoft my first thought was, 'wouldn't' it be cool to have rubber knives for extra realism/coolness.

Having read the arguments, it seems not having them is the safest way. In Lrp you are consenting to be hit with rubber weapons. Almost everybody has one and the rules can be followed. In airsoft they would be infrequently used enforcing rules and training is harder.

Having a knife competency in my opinion wouldn't work. The people who train for weapon comp, check weapons for safety are experienced Lrpers, who themselves have received training to do that job. Asking a airsoft Marshall/site manager to adjudicate in something that they have little experience in is not practical.

On the other hand hearing the comments that knife kills could lead to being punched is unsettling. It makes it seem that there is a latent aggression undercurrent in the hobby. Not sure if I would feel comfortable doing a 'knife kill' with my hand.

I think you're muddying the waters a bit here Tad, nobody is suggesting we start using blade surrogates LRP style. What we've been discussing is the use of fake blades to tap someone with and complete a loadout visually without running into problems of inappropriate usage.

Puding

tbh i could stand by the argument of completing an impression, but i could count on the hands the number of loadouts/impressions that i;ve seen in ireland that could justify a knife on grounds of accuracy

Killinator

I carry a bayonet replica for my Gerry WW2 gear, anyone who has ever seen it has only ever commented on how awesome it was and never mentioned dangers or extreme violence, I sometimes carry a rubber knife with my more modern gear,
I have never used either and dont see the opportunity likely to arise too often or at all( ie: getting behind someone close enough to knife kill/tap on shoulder)
There seems to be a concern of people rushing a 100 yards in a mad bayonet charge to plunge a blade into peoples chest and twist till they stop twitching, COD style knifing, slit throats, and Trinity style knife throwing abilities, these are the kind of things I would expect to see as a headline in a rag top!!!
If someone does charge at you then more than likely you'll be alert to their presence sooner than they reach you,
I mean has anyone here been slahed, stabbed, gutted or bayonetted by a looner with slight pyshopathic tendancies, fine it could happen, but that same looner is as likely to sneak up behind you and crack your skull with the butstock of his rifle,
Why use a knife you say? erm....it looks cool, and I find it hard to draw the line on when something looking good in airsoft is not a good enough excuse, thats why we have people wearing helmets with NVG mounts and no nightvision units, accurate comms units when a walkie talkie will do, blowback aegs, full metal aegs becasue day-glow aegs work just as well, etc,etc...
People are too concerned about what could go wrong,its this kind of thinking that had the government trying to ban aegs and gbbs instead of stoping the munters using them for crime, had we all agreed with that perspective then none of us would be able to play airsoft(legally anyway),

And as a final note, I have had a tooth shot out, so I do have some experience with the injury(slight as it may be) side of airsoft,
Just like fake knives, airsoft CAN be dangerous, but when used appropriately then it will NEVER be dangerous.

Well thats my 5cents.........becasue 2cents isnt valued as highly these days:)