Derby Discussions

UrbanSea · 23-05-2010 02:55PM #1

There was a bit of a debate there on rte with Ted Walsh and that other chap who's name eludes me.
Ted doesn't seem to think too much of Jan Vermeer there, he didn't get too excited about him but thought St Nicholas Abbey is the one to get on for the Derby.
I wouldn't listen to Ted Walsh at all here,he kept saying how he just beat Bobbyscott blah blah but he clearly won it very easily,with a penalty and needed the run I'd say. He won a Group 1 by 4 lengths ffs.
It would be him for me out of his ones.
Jan Vermeer,St Nicholas Abbey,Cape Blanco,Midas Touch,who'd ye say?

Goldcupfav · 23-05-2010 07:13PM

Would agree with you on Jan Vermeer the horse can only beat whats in front of him and he did it nicely today. Unfortunately for me i backed O'Brien's MIKHAIL GLINKA @40's antepost for the Derby but think he picked up a minor injury and wont be running. Also on Azmeel @40's. Most likely AOB will run 5 or 6 horses in the Derby this year. Like the way Cape Blanco won the Dante but wouldnt put you off any of them really.

Sprouts · 24-05-2010 02:05AM

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

Morgans · 24-05-2010 10:49AM

Sprouts wrote: »

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

Well said.

Aidan ran 6 last year. All beaten by Sea the Stars. Of course, had Sea the Stars missed ther race for any reason, Aidan O'Brien would have had the first, second, third, fourth, and sixth.

Clueless.

Goldcupfav · 24-05-2010 03:14PM

Oh and your forgetting Johnny Murtagh he has only won the Epsom Derby 3 times and the Irish Derby 3 times obviously he'd be no help in the saddle !!

gscully · 24-05-2010 03:34PM

Sprouts wrote: »

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

Robin Van Persie???

allthedoyles · 24-05-2010 09:26PM

It will all depend on how these horses work out at home -

I liked Jan Vermeer and the way he ran yesterday

Sprouts · 24-05-2010 10:52PM

Morgans wrote: »

Well said.

Aidan ran 6 last year. All beaten by Sea the Stars. Of course, had Sea the Stars missed ther race for any reason, Aidan O'Brien would have had the first, second, third, fourth, and sixth.

Clueless.

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

longshotvalue · 24-05-2010 11:36PM

Sprouts wrote: »

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

But does he have 4 top notch horses, who could run in the derby, all these are excellently bred horses, who if things went right could be good enough to win a derby. This race is requires attributes that are often not clear until the race is over.. Surly no one could argue with his record in the race, and even last year is nothing short of outstanding, and he has often had a few horses with chances turning for home, what more could anyone do..

Sprouts · 25-05-2010 12:00AM

gscully wrote: »

Robin Van Persie???

You know what I meant, I meant winkle.

SRFC · 25-05-2010 02:48AM

Sprouts wrote: »

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

oh dear,so he bought st.nick an jan vermeer an all his other derby horses at the sales did he?

Morgans · 25-05-2010 07:08AM

Sprouts wrote: »

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

I think Hannon is great, hope he gets to be champion trainer again, but the idea he doesnt go mob handed into races he targets - like the Super Sprint at Newbury - and several other 2yo sales races is 100% wrong. Come up with better examples please.

People underestimate O'Brien.

14 English classics in 12 years (22 irish classics) is a phenomenal achievement regardless of the raw materials. Godolphin has shown that not everyone can do it. But of course, sneering and thinking that you are swimming against the tide is fun.

Whyno · 25-05-2010 10:57PM

Sprouts wrote: »

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

What the hell have you been smoking man? This has to be a level because no one on here could possibly believe this to be true because if they did they'd have to be braindead.

O'Brien is one of the best trainers on the planet and knows his horses inside out. Johnny murtagh is equally one of the greatest jockeys in the world and has been for years, putting his problems aside.
RVP...LOL
Rip van winkle was the champion miler last year wasnt he. He was the one who got closest to The mighty sea the stars in the eclipse and possibly travelled better than STS that day.
<snip>

Nulty · 25-05-2010 11:03PM

Whyno wrote: »

What the hell have you been smoking man? This has to be a level because no one on here could possibly believe this to be true because if they did they'd have to be braindead.

O'Brien is one of the best trainers on the planet and knows his horses inside out. Johnny murtagh is equally one of the greatest jockeys in the world and has been for years, putting his problems aside.
RVP...LOL
Rip van winkle was the champion miler last year wasnt he. He was the one who got closest to The mighty sea the stars in the eclipse and possibly travelled better than STS that day.
You really do seem to have your head up your arse and probably talking through your pocket.

I didn't take to RVW at the beginning last year...Mastercraftsman was my adopted horse from Ballydoyle but he's an brilliant horse and we have to thank STS for keeping him in for another year.

And I heard someone say recently about St. Nic and RVW that Murtagh rarely gets it wrong, just sometimes the timing is wrong. It's like doubting Hannon (which I was guilty of but wont let happen again)....how can you doubt Murtagh and O'Brien?

UrbanSea · 25-05-2010 11:06PM

Rip was my favourite,there was something about him.I didn't take to many at Ballydoyle last year.
I loved Moonstone and Henrythenavigator the year before,and with Duke of Marmalade still around,I think that was their strongest year in a long time.

Whyno · 25-05-2010 11:11PM

Nulty wrote: »

I didn't take to RVW at the beginning last year...Mastercraftsman was my adopted horse from Ballydoyle but he's an brilliant horse and we have to thank STS for keeping him in for another year

After his defeat of cuis ghaire in his second start i was hooked. He ran in the dewhurst an was never really put into the race under a considerate ride. His 3 year old campaign was littered with foot problems and well he really was in the shadow of STS for most of the year but then again thats no shame.
MCM was a tough horse.I reckon near unbeatable on heavy ground over a mile and this fellow loved a battle. Not as prolific as the rip but still got the job done and won over a million in the process.
I hope that rip is clear of all his problems and bursts back on to the sene at royal ascot by destroying whatever is put in front of him and earns the rating i think he deserves in the 130s.

UrbanSea · 25-05-2010 11:16PM

I'd love to see him destroy Paco Boy again.

Nulty · 25-05-2010 11:20PM

Whyno wrote: »

After his defeat of cuis ghaire in his second start i was hooked. He ran in the dewhurst an was never really put into the race under a considerate ride. His 3 year old campaign was littered with foot problems and well he really was in the shadow of STS for most of the year but then again thats no shame.
MCM was a tough horse.I reckon near unbeatable on heavy ground over a mile and this fellow loved a battle. Not as prolific as the rip but still got the job done and won over a million in the process.
I hope that rip is clear of all his problems and bursts back on to the sene at royal ascot by destroying whatever is put in front of him and earns the rating i think he deserves in the 130s.

Mastercraftsman was just so very like Giants Causeway. The James Palace was the race of the year in my book. Very close with STSs Arc.

UrbanSea · 25-05-2010 11:23PM

I loved Sea the Stars Arc. My favourite youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f824CU-F3rc

Nulty · 25-05-2010 11:31PM

But back on topic...

I'm not having a bet in the Derby at this stage but if I was give a free €10, it'd go on Cape Blanco NRNB. He's unbeaten, which stands for a lot in my opinion, won his trial with out any hassle, seems very straight forward, performs everytime and so is reliable and I would be willing to chance that if he's in the race, he's fit enough to win.

UrbanSea · 25-05-2010 11:34PM

Ya,back to the original topic.
I dunno about Cape Blanco,7 furlongs to 10 to 12...It'd be Jan Vermeer for me. Cape Blanco for the French maybe

Nulty · 26-05-2010 12:02AM

Yer man over in the betting forum with his dead certs should put the whole lot on O'Brien winning the Derby...It's be a massive shock to me if he didn't.

In-running comments for Cape Blanco read:

kept on well - Impressive - stayed on best inside final furlong - ridden clear entering final furlong, stayed on.

You'll obviously remember the Dante but I don't entertain stamina doubts about him. I'd be willing to put my hypothetical tenner on anyway

UrbanSea · 26-05-2010 12:10AM

Best thing about hypothetical tenners is they cant lose

I'd have them in this order.
1. Jan Vermeer
2.Cape Blanco
3.St Nicholas Abbey
4.Midas Touch.
I'd still like to see JV at epsom,and cape blanco go to France. Can't wait for the race though.

Goldcupfav · 26-05-2010 12:11AM

Like the look of Cape Blanco myself think he could turn out to be a Leger horse.

Nulty · 26-05-2010 12:14AM

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Like the look of Cape Blanco myself think he could turn out to be a Leger horse.

What makes you think he'll get 1m6? Or do you just think he'll draw the 1m6 straw from Ballydoyle?

UrbanSea · 26-05-2010 12:14AM

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Like the look of Cape Blanco myself think he could turn out to be a Leger horse.

It would be amazing to see. 7f group two winner to 14 furlong group 1 in a year.

Goldcupfav · 26-05-2010 12:23AM

greetings wrote: »

It would be amazing to see. 7f group two winner to 14 furlong group 1 in a year.

Kite Wood won a group 3 as a two year old and was just beaten in the Leger last year! There both by Galileo. So stranger things can happen !

UrbanSea · 26-05-2010 12:25AM

Ah pardon my ignorance,but wasn't that over a mile?
Saw he won a group 2 there at Longchamp at the wekeend beating Kasbah Bliss.

Goldcupfav · 26-05-2010 12:28AM

greetings wrote: »

Ah pardon my ignorance,but wasn't that over a mile?
Saw he won a group 2 there at Longchamp at the wekeend beating Kasbah Bliss.

Sorry your right Kite Wood did win over a mile as a two year old.

UrbanSea · 26-05-2010 12:32AM

Mind you,hardly a huge difference.

Nulty · 26-05-2010 12:41AM

Its fair enough that there would be doubts over Cape Blanco's stamina - his Dam was a sprinter. But its best to judge things on what he's achieved on the race track and I've seen enough to convince me he'll get the Derby trip.

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Kite Wood won a group 3 as a two year old and was just beaten in the Leger last year! There both by Galileo. So stranger things can happen !

Kite Woods Dam made debut for Henry Cecil in Soft ground over 10f.

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