Derby Discussions

UrbanSea

There was a bit of a debate there on rte with Ted Walsh and that other chap who's name eludes me.
Ted doesn't seem to think too much of Jan Vermeer there, he didn't get too excited about him but thought St Nicholas Abbey is the one to get on for the Derby.
I wouldn't listen to Ted Walsh at all here,he kept saying how he just beat Bobbyscott blah blah but he clearly won it very easily,with a penalty and needed the run I'd say. He won a Group 1 by 4 lengths ffs.
It would be him for me out of his ones.
Jan Vermeer,St Nicholas Abbey,Cape Blanco,Midas Touch,who'd ye say?

Goldcupfav

Would agree with you on Jan Vermeer the horse can only beat whats in front of him and he did it nicely today. Unfortunately for me i backed O'Brien's MIKHAIL GLINKA @40's antepost for the Derby but think he picked up a minor injury and wont be running. Also on Azmeel @40's. Most likely AOB will run 5 or 6 horses in the Derby this year. Like the way Cape Blanco won the Dante but wouldnt put you off any of them really.

Sprouts

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

Morgans

Sprouts wrote: »

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

Well said.

Aidan ran 6 last year. All beaten by Sea the Stars. Of course, had Sea the Stars missed ther race for any reason, Aidan O'Brien would have had the first, second, third, fourth, and sixth.

Clueless.

Goldcupfav

Oh and your forgetting Johnny Murtagh he has only won the Epsom Derby 3 times and the Irish Derby 3 times obviously he'd be no help in the saddle !!

gscully

Sprouts wrote: »

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

Robin Van Persie???

allthedoyles

It will all depend on how these horses work out at home -

I liked Jan Vermeer and the way he ran yesterday

Sprouts

Morgans wrote: »

Well said.

Aidan ran 6 last year. All beaten by Sea the Stars. Of course, had Sea the Stars missed ther race for any reason, Aidan O'Brien would have had the first, second, third, fourth, and sixth.

Clueless.

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

longshotvalue

Sprouts wrote: »

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

But does he have 4 top notch horses, who could run in the derby, all these are excellently bred horses, who if things went right could be good enough to win a derby. This race is requires attributes that are often not clear until the race is over.. Surly no one could argue with his record in the race, and even last year is nothing short of outstanding, and he has often had a few horses with chances turning for home, what more could anyone do..

Sprouts

gscully wrote: »

Robin Van Persie???

You know what I meant, I meant winkle.

SRFC

Sprouts wrote: »

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

oh dear,so he bought st.nick an jan vermeer an all his other derby horses at the sales did he?

Morgans

Sprouts wrote: »

Well if you train for the coolmore mafia who buy everything at every sales you should really do better than that, Richard Hannon does relatively well on way less and doesn't throw half a dozen horses into a race, because he knows what he has.

I think Hannon is great, hope he gets to be champion trainer again, but the idea he doesnt go mob handed into races he targets - like the Super Sprint at Newbury - and several other 2yo sales races is 100% wrong. Come up with better examples please.

People underestimate O'Brien.

14 English classics in 12 years (22 irish classics) is a phenomenal achievement regardless of the raw materials. Godolphin has shown that not everyone can do it. But of course, sneering and thinking that you are swimming against the tide is fun.

Whyno

Sprouts wrote: »

O'Brien hasn't a clue what he has, you don't have half the field in a classic and come out a loser if youre a good judge of a horse, same way you don't fall into a barrel of tits and come out sucking your thumb, Johnny wouldn't be much help to him either, he tought RVP would beat all before him last year, way off the mark.

What the hell have you been smoking man? This has to be a level because no one on here could possibly believe this to be true because if they did they'd have to be braindead.

O'Brien is one of the best trainers on the planet and knows his horses inside out. Johnny murtagh is equally one of the greatest jockeys in the world and has been for years, putting his problems aside.
RVP...LOL
Rip van winkle was the champion miler last year wasnt he. He was the one who got closest to The mighty sea the stars in the eclipse and possibly travelled better than STS that day.
<snip>

Nulty

Whyno wrote: »

What the hell have you been smoking man? This has to be a level because no one on here could possibly believe this to be true because if they did they'd have to be braindead.

O'Brien is one of the best trainers on the planet and knows his horses inside out. Johnny murtagh is equally one of the greatest jockeys in the world and has been for years, putting his problems aside.
RVP...LOL
Rip van winkle was the champion miler last year wasnt he. He was the one who got closest to The mighty sea the stars in the eclipse and possibly travelled better than STS that day.
You really do seem to have your head up your arse and probably talking through your pocket.

I didn't take to RVW at the beginning last year...Mastercraftsman was my adopted horse from Ballydoyle but he's an brilliant horse and we have to thank STS for keeping him in for another year.

And I heard someone say recently about St. Nic and RVW that Murtagh rarely gets it wrong, just sometimes the timing is wrong. It's like doubting Hannon (which I was guilty of but wont let happen again)....how can you doubt Murtagh and O'Brien?

UrbanSea

Rip was my favourite,there was something about him.I didn't take to many at Ballydoyle last year.
I loved Moonstone and Henrythenavigator the year before,and with Duke of Marmalade still around,I think that was their strongest year in a long time.

Whyno

Nulty wrote: »

I didn't take to RVW at the beginning last year...Mastercraftsman was my adopted horse from Ballydoyle but he's an brilliant horse and we have to thank STS for keeping him in for another year

After his defeat of cuis ghaire in his second start i was hooked. He ran in the dewhurst an was never really put into the race under a considerate ride. His 3 year old campaign was littered with foot problems and well he really was in the shadow of STS for most of the year but then again thats no shame.
MCM was a tough horse.I reckon near unbeatable on heavy ground over a mile and this fellow loved a battle. Not as prolific as the rip but still got the job done and won over a million in the process.
I hope that rip is clear of all his problems and bursts back on to the sene at royal ascot by destroying whatever is put in front of him and earns the rating i think he deserves in the 130s.

UrbanSea

I'd love to see him destroy Paco Boy again.

Nulty

Whyno wrote: »

After his defeat of cuis ghaire in his second start i was hooked. He ran in the dewhurst an was never really put into the race under a considerate ride. His 3 year old campaign was littered with foot problems and well he really was in the shadow of STS for most of the year but then again thats no shame.
MCM was a tough horse.I reckon near unbeatable on heavy ground over a mile and this fellow loved a battle. Not as prolific as the rip but still got the job done and won over a million in the process.
I hope that rip is clear of all his problems and bursts back on to the sene at royal ascot by destroying whatever is put in front of him and earns the rating i think he deserves in the 130s.

Mastercraftsman was just so very like Giants Causeway. The James Palace was the race of the year in my book. Very close with STSs Arc.

UrbanSea

I loved Sea the Stars Arc. My favourite youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f824CU-F3rc

Nulty

But back on topic...

I'm not having a bet in the Derby at this stage but if I was give a free €10, it'd go on Cape Blanco NRNB. He's unbeaten, which stands for a lot in my opinion, won his trial with out any hassle, seems very straight forward, performs everytime and so is reliable and I would be willing to chance that if he's in the race, he's fit enough to win.

UrbanSea

Ya,back to the original topic.
I dunno about Cape Blanco,7 furlongs to 10 to 12...It'd be Jan Vermeer for me. Cape Blanco for the French maybe

Nulty

Yer man over in the betting forum with his dead certs should put the whole lot on O'Brien winning the Derby...It's be a massive shock to me if he didn't.

In-running comments for Cape Blanco read:

kept on well - Impressive - stayed on best inside final furlong - ridden clear entering final furlong, stayed on.

You'll obviously remember the Dante but I don't entertain stamina doubts about him. I'd be willing to put my hypothetical tenner on anyway

UrbanSea

Best thing about hypothetical tenners is they cant lose
I'd have them in this order.
1. Jan Vermeer
2.Cape Blanco
3.St Nicholas Abbey
4.Midas Touch.
I'd still like to see JV at epsom,and cape blanco go to France. Can't wait for the race though.

Goldcupfav

Like the look of Cape Blanco myself think he could turn out to be a Leger horse.

Nulty

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Like the look of Cape Blanco myself think he could turn out to be a Leger horse.

What makes you think he'll get 1m6? Or do you just think he'll draw the 1m6 straw from Ballydoyle?

UrbanSea

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Like the look of Cape Blanco myself think he could turn out to be a Leger horse.

It would be amazing to see. 7f group two winner to 14 furlong group 1 in a year.

Goldcupfav

greetings wrote: »

It would be amazing to see. 7f group two winner to 14 furlong group 1 in a year.

Kite Wood won a group 3 as a two year old and was just beaten in the Leger last year! There both by Galileo. So stranger things can happen !

UrbanSea

Ah pardon my ignorance,but wasn't that over a mile?
Saw he won a group 2 there at Longchamp at the wekeend beating Kasbah Bliss.

Goldcupfav

greetings wrote: »

Ah pardon my ignorance,but wasn't that over a mile?
Saw he won a group 2 there at Longchamp at the wekeend beating Kasbah Bliss.

Sorry your right Kite Wood did win over a mile as a two year old.

UrbanSea

Mind you,hardly a huge difference.

Nulty

Its fair enough that there would be doubts over Cape Blanco's stamina - his Dam was a sprinter. But its best to judge things on what he's achieved on the race track and I've seen enough to convince me he'll get the Derby trip.

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Kite Wood won a group 3 as a two year old and was just beaten in the Leger last year! There both by Galileo. So stranger things can happen !

Kite Woods Dam made debut for Henry Cecil in Soft ground over 10f.

UrbanSea

I wanted to get a Leger quote for Manifest.
Stupid me then saw him win a 4 year old race

Nulty

greetings wrote: »

I wanted to get a Leger quote for Manifest.
Stupid me then saw him win a 4 year old race

The thread is about O'briens derby horses greetings - remember?

Goldcupfav

Nulty wrote: »

Its fair enough that there would be doubts over Cape Blanco's stamina - his Dam was a sprinter. But its best to judge things on what he's achieved on the race track and I've seen enough to convince me he'll get the Derby trip.



Kite Woods Dam made debut for Henry Cecil in Soft ground over 10f.

Definite Article was by Indian Ridge who was a sprinter so like i said stranger things have happened!

UrbanSea

Sorry,I probably should know that seen as I started it.
Is there a way of changing the title to just the derby,as I assume there'll be a thread on it anyway with it coming up?

Goldcupfav

greetings wrote: »

Sorry,I probably should know that seen as I started it.
Is there a way of changing the title to just the derby,as I assume there'll be a thread on it anyway with it coming up?

Your right back to the topic ! If i had to be on any AOB horses it would be Cape Blanco or Jan Vermeer ! Like how both won there trials !

UrbanSea

Any word of any guineas horses going for the derby?

Nulty

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Definite Article was by Indian Ridge who was a sprinter so like i said stranger things have happened!

I don't know much about this but a little research has led me to know that Definite Articles Dam won 4 races over 1m2f and Indian Ridge won at 7f. I dont think your wrong, I just think there's less evidence to suggest that what your proposing is likely to happen.

Back on topic!!:mad::P

Actually, I think Starspangledbanner is a great bet in the Golden Jubilee. I reckon he's likely to go there rather than the Queen Anne because of the stables other horses and....*gone to investigate any reports from after the Duke of York....*
He's going to the Golden Jubilee -

"He should come on a lot for the run and if everything is well with him, we will aim him at the Golden Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot next."

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=726295

14/1 and has excellent for in Aus at 6f...plus its not like you betting on whether Godolphin have corrupted another import - O' Brien will have him ready.

Goldcupfav

Nulty wrote: »

I don't know much about this but a little research has led me to know that Definite Articles Dam won 4 races over 1m2f and Indian Ridge won at 7f. I dont think your wrong, I just think there's less evidence to suggest that what your proposing is likely to happen.

Back on topic!!:mad::P

Fair enough sure we will see how CB runs in the Derby first! Is he a defo runner after the lameness or injury scare after the Dante ?

UrbanSea

Nulty wrote: »

I don't know much about this but a little research has led me to know that Definite Articles Dam won 4 races over 1m2f and Indian Ridge won at 7f. I dont think your wrong, I just think there's less evidence to suggest that what your proposing is likely to happen.

Back on topic!!:mad::P

Is this the worst thread for being off topic? Nulty what did you have for your dinne....


Does anyone here think that he'll send all 4 to Epsom? I think he'll send 3 of them and possibly two for the pace.

Goldcupfav

greetings wrote: »

Is this the worst thread for being off topic? Nulty what did you have for your dinne....


Does anyone here think that he'll send all 4 to Epsom? I think he'll send 3 of them and possibly two for the pace.

http://www.attheraces.com/card.aspx?raceid=258895&meetingid=37634&date=2010-06-05&ref=fixtures&refsite=&nav=racecards

Im pretty sure this is the final declaration. So at First Sight and Bright Horizan look to be the pacemakers ! I think AOB will prob run all four tbh. With the 2 pacemakers of course !!

UrbanSea

If there's no drop outs I'd be surprised,he has 4 there that could win it,why not send one or two to France?

Goldcupfav

greetings wrote: »

If there's no drop outs I'd be surprised,he has 4 there that could win it,why not send one or two to France?

Mikhal Glinka picked up a minor injury nothing to serious although does miss the Derby so he could be in line for the Prix du Jockey Club.

Nulty

greetings wrote: »

If there's no drop outs I'd be surprised,he has 4 there that could win it,why not send one or two to France?

He's probably getting itchy fingers...its been a few years since he's won it and Coolmore are probably getting pissed off waiting. TBH, I couldn't name 1 French Derby winner. Most people (maybe I'm way off) would remember the third home in the Epsom Derby but might not know who won the French the same year.

UrbanSea

Was it you that had backed him ante post at 40s for the derby?

Nulty

greetings wrote: »

Was it you that had backed him ante post at 40s for the derby?

Me? No. I've got nothing in the race...I'll be watching without any anxiety

Goldcupfav

greetings wrote: »

Was it you that had backed him ante post at 40s for the derby?

Yeah had 30 ew at 40/1. Ah thats the chance you take doing antepost betting ! Also had him in an 10 ew treble with CC at 10/1 and Special Duty at 4/1 in the guineas! So a place for him would of paid 700 odd. Ah well have the same 10 ew treble with Azmeel (also 40/1) instead of Mikhail. Plus a single bet on Azmeel. So a place for Azmeel wont work out to bad !!

convert

greetings wrote: »

Sorry,I probably should know that seen as I started it.
Is there a way of changing the title to just the derby,as I assume there'll be a thread on it anyway with it coming up?

Done

Nulty

Cape Blanco is all but a non-runner maybe.

He's out to 22 on Betfair. That can only mean one thing can't it? He's still in at declaration stage though so its a bit confusing or will Ballydoyle leave it til the last minute in case one of the others needs scratching?

UrbanSea

No word on Cape Blanco yet,looks like Aidan will be sending Viscount Nelson for the French one http://www.coolmore.com/ballydoyle-article.php

boccy23

Nulty wrote: »

Cape Blanco is all but a non-runner maybe.

He's out to 22 on Betfair. That can only mean one thing can't it? He's still in at declaration stage though so its a bit confusing or will Ballydoyle leave it til the last minute in case one of the others needs scratching?

Wow. Thought his Dante win looked the best of the trials.