Possible social welfare cuts in Ireland?

danbohan · 23-05-2010 01:51PM

ardmacha wrote: »

you are "hopefully morgan kelly is right"

Germany, for instance. Of course you can say that Germany can better afford these salaries than here, largely because they also collect enough tax to run their services which we do not. But wishing for economic collapse so that people will be paid less is not acceptable.

wishful thinking and burying your head in the sand is a disease affecting many people here , no more pay cuts , no social welfare cuts ,getting their negative equity written off and their bad debts paid off ,its so bloody childish its unbelievable ,anyway am sure the Germans will be happy to pay their teachers and ours high salary's for years and years to come !!!!

thebman · 23-05-2010 02:04PM

We know welfare has to be cut. It is a known.

If you've been made recently unemployed, you should have savings to bump up the total money you have per month temporarily.

Its both unreasonable and going to happen, that dole will be high enough to cover your motgage payments or credit card debts or anything like that. It simply isn't designed to do that.

If you have those things, you should have saved enough to cover them should you be let go from your position.

Its not that anybody wants to do it to you, its that the money isn't there. The current dole levels will be cut as TBH, its above what a single person with no financial commitments, living in reasonable priced accomodation requires which is what it is for. Everything else, you should have savings for and it sucks donkey balls but thats the reality. Dole covers essentials not lifestyle choices.

Captain Chaos · 23-05-2010 02:15PM

thebman wrote: »

The current dole levels will be cut as TBH, its above what a single person with no financial commitments, living in reasonable priced accomodation requires which is what it is for. Everything else, you should have savings for and it sucks donkey balls but thats the reality. Dole covers essentials not lifestyle choices.

No it does not. I had to move back home and sell my car because of an injury that has me out of work while I'm on a waiting list and I'm on the same as the dole. I had no commitments but I could not make ends meet on €196 per week. That was a basic single bed apartment and a basic car which I need for work because I'm always somewhere different.

The cost of living has to drop first if the social welfare is to be cut too.

thebman · 23-05-2010 02:47PM

Captain Chaos wrote: »

No it does not. I had to move back home and sell my car because of an injury that has me out of work while I'm on a waiting list and I'm on the same as the dole. I had no commitments but I could not make ends meet on €196 per week. That was a basic single bed apartment and a basic car which I need for work because I'm always somewhere different.

The cost of living has to drop first if the social welfare is to be cut too.

You didn't try hard enough TBH. I know because I've done it.

unamused · 23-05-2010 02:50PM

thebman wrote: »

We know welfare has to be cut. It is a known.

If you've been made recently unemployed, you should have savings to bump up the total money you have per month temporarily.

Its both unreasonable and going to happen, that dole will be high enough to cover your motgage payments or credit card debts or anything like that. It simply isn't designed to do that.

If you have those things, you should have saved enough to cover them should you be let go from your position.

Its not that anybody wants to do it to you, its that the money isn't there. The current dole levels will be cut as TBH, its above what a single person with no financial commitments, living in reasonable priced accomodation requires which is what it is for. Everything else, you should have savings for and it sucks donkey balls but thats the reality. Dole covers essentials not lifestyle choices.

And what about those of us who weren't earning unrealistic salaries during the so called Celtic Tiger who just earned enough to cover the rip off living expenses how the hell where we meant to save for the rainy day

there seems to be a lot of obnoxious idiots on boards who seem to have been paid well above the odds who could live in their luxury houses and apartments have their fancy cars and designer clothes and have never had a hard day in their lives

i am so tired of having to listen or read what they have to say i have always been told that if you work hard you will get what you want well thats bull**** i have worked hard all my life and all that happens is you get kicked in the teeth

RichardAnd · 23-05-2010 03:18PM

unamused wrote: »

i am so tired of having to listen or read what they have to say i have always been told that if you work hard you will get what you want well thats bull**** i have worked hard all my life and all that happens is you get kicked in the teeth

Everyone gets told that and yes, it is utter rubbish. Some people work hard and get rewarded but I find that the ones who go furthest often do so by lying, cheating, playing the system or simple good old lady luck tips their dice.

It's not fair but life rarely is.

Welease · 23-05-2010 04:53PM

unamused wrote: »

i am so tired of having to listen or read what they have to say i have always been told that if you work hard you will get what you want well thats bull**** i have worked hard all my life and all that happens is you get kicked in the teeth

Isn't it more about working smart? The more value you bring to a company the more you can expect to get paid.. Just because someone works 15 hour days don't necessarily make them more valuable.

unamused · 23-05-2010 05:06PM

Welease wrote: »

Isn't it more about working smart? The more value you bring to a company the more you can expect to get paid.. Just because someone works 15 hour days don't necessarily make them more valuable.

i dont agree with that i'm a trained accountant who is not afraid of hard work and have gone into companies and transformed the way their accounts department works (for the good) and still nothing when you go looking for a payrise even though i see how much more revenue we are taking in than spending and see the balance sheet im still told we're not doing good enough
so no i think its just down to good old greedyness
the last company i worked for i not only ran their accounts department but done payable/receivable for 5 companies, all admin for these companies, pa to sales staff and the company director and still it wasnt good enough i ran myself into the ground
i agree that just cause someone works 15hrs a day doesnt make them more valuable i've seen people like this and felt sick when they got their cushy bonus or payrise and what do the hard honest workers get sweet f all
a lesson has been learnt on my behalf only bitches get ahead

RichardAnd · 23-05-2010 05:20PM

unamused wrote: »

i dont agree with that i'm a trained accountant who is not afraid of hard work and have gone into companies and transformed the way their accounts department works (for the good) and still nothing when you go looking for a payrise even though i see how much more revenue we are taking in than spending and see the balance sheet im still told we're not doing good enough
so no i think its just down to good old greedyness
the last company i worked for i not only ran their accounts department but done payable/receivable for 5 companies, all admin for these companies, pa to sales staff and the company director and still it wasnt good enough i ran myself into the ground
i agree that just cause someone works 15hrs a day doesnt make them more valuable i've seen people like this and felt sick when they got their cushy bonus or payrise and what do the hard honest workers get sweet f all
a lesson has been learnt on my behalf only bitches get ahead

What you've just described actually sounds familiar. A hard working man can be left in the same position because he does it very, very well. It sounds like you did your job well and if the company gave you a promotion into something else, they would have lost your skills at your old job.

This sounds insane, and it is, but it does happen and I have seen it in the past. If you have two computer programmers, one is exceptional and the other is run of the mill then when promotion comes around it's likely the owner will promote the mediocre guy to management. Why? because if he promotes the great coder he won't be coding any more. I'm not saying managers are wasters but generally you'll find that their underlings are more skilled at what he is managing them at.

Welease · 23-05-2010 05:22PM

Well I guess it going to be down to opinions, but my experience is the exact opposite..

thebman · 23-05-2010 08:34PM

unamused wrote: »

And what about those of us who weren't earning unrealistic salaries during the so called Celtic Tiger who just earned enough to cover the rip off living expenses how the hell where we meant to save for the rainy day

I wasn't earning a lot when I was let go. Over 10,000 less than the average wage at the time.

RichardAnd wrote: »

What you've just described actually sounds familiar. A hard working man can be left in the same position because he does it very, very well. It sounds like you did your job well and if the company gave you a promotion into something else, they would have lost your skills at your old job.

This sounds insane, and it is, but it does happen and I have seen it in the past. If you have two computer programmers, one is exceptional and the other is run of the mill then when promotion comes around it's likely the owner will promote the mediocre guy to management. Why? because if he promotes the great coder he won't be coding any more. I'm not saying managers are wasters but generally you'll find that their underlings are more skilled at what he is managing them at.

This seems to be the case at badly run companies. In one of my jobs, they called it sh** rises when it happened.

If you are invaluable at your job and they don't want to promote it then you should look for work elsewhere as if they really do value your skills, they will then offer you a pay increase if you inform them you've been offered a better paying job elsewhere.

rightwingdub · 23-05-2010 11:28PM

I may possibly find myself out of a job in the next few months, I'll be going from €2,300 per month to around €800 per month but over the last 3 years I've put aside plenty of money for a rainy day and I didn't join the mortgage madness of the celtic tiger insanity, even if I'm made redundant I still believe that the dole will need to be cut gradually to be about €150-155 per week over the next three budgets.

If I'm made redundant I'd be entitled to the following benefits.

social welfare €196 per week
rent allowance (Dublin) €92 per week
Fuel allowance €20 per week over 32 weeks

Now how the f**k can someone not be able to live on such welfare benefits per week.

this is what the above social welfare benefits should be reduced to in the next budget

social welfare €167 per week
rent allowance €80 per week
fuel allowance €16 per week

That would be a combined total of €263 per week which is more than enough for a single person with no kids to live on. If people put aside money for a rainy day then they are more likely to stay above water than the eejits who lost all sense of financial values during the celtic tiger.

Clown Shoes · 23-05-2010 11:55PM

rightwingdub wrote: »

I may possibly find myself out of a job in the next few months, I'll be going from €2,300 per month to around €800 per month but over the last 3 years I've put aside plenty of money for a rainy day and I didn't join the mortgage madness of the celtic tiger insanity, even if I'm made redundant I still believe that the dole will need to be cut gradually to be about €150-155 per week over the next three budgets.

If I'm made redundant I'd be entitled to the following benefits.

social welfare €196 per week
rent allowance (Dublin) €92 per week
Fuel allowance €20 per week over 32 weeks

Now how the f**k can someone not be able to live on such welfare benefits per week.

this is what the above social welfare benefits should be reduced to in the next budget

social welfare €167 per week
rent allowance €80 per week
fuel allowance €16 per week

That would be a combined total of €263 per week which is more than enough for a single person with no kids to live on. If people put aside money for a rainy day then they are more likely to stay above water than the eejits who lost all sense of financial values during the celtic tiger.

The other factor is taxation. Half the work force doesn´t pay any income tax. This will change along the lines of the U.K. system where almost every employee pays something.It may not be worthwhile going to work if more tax is put on labour.

An unemployed "worker" should receive dole commensurate with contributions they´ve made over their working life. Any able bodied person who has never worked a day in their life should be happy with whatever is left to hand out.

Tax welfare the same way a worker is taxed.

It will be interesting to see what kind of reception, support and sympathy OAP´s get this time round. Their protest outside the Dail was nearly 2 years ago. Changed times. Now no government will be foolish enough to say something to it´s workforce like well "it´s another 5% on the marginal rate of income tax to pay for Old age pensions" but there are enough hacks and journos to kick that one off. Divide and conquer, oldest trick in the book will see workers try to guard their pay packets at the expense of OAP´s.It´ll be us v them mentality.

Unfortunately, the state´s coffers are in a state of atrophy. Lower welfare rate will most probably drag wages down too. Grim.

rightwingdub · 24-05-2010 12:13AM

Clown Shoes wrote: »

The other factor is taxation. Half the work force doesn´t pay any income tax. This will change along the lines of the U.K. system where almost every employee pays something.It may not be worthwhile going to work if more tax is put on labour.

An unemployed "worker" should receive dole commensurate with contributions they´ve made over their working life. Any able bodied person who has never worked a day in their life should be happy with whatever is left to hand out.

Tax welfare the same way a worker is taxed.

It will be interesting to see what kind of reception, support and sympathy OAP´s get this time round. Their protest outside the Dail was nearly 2 years ago. Changed times. Now no government will be foolish enough to say something to it´s workforce like well "it´s another 5% on the marginal rate of income tax to pay for Old age pensions" but there are enough hacks and journos to kick that one off. Divide and conquer, oldest trick in the book will see workers try to guard their pay packets at the expense of OAP´s.It´ll be us v them mentality.

Unfortunately, the state´s coffers are in a state of atrophy. Lower welfare rate will most probably drag wages down too. Grim.

Someone who earns €9k per year should start paying tax, also regarding the dole how about taxing the dole say for able bodied people who haven't worked since 2006 or before at 40%.

-Cut the OAP by 7% in the next budget,
-Any pensioner who has annual income of more than €450 per week should be exempt from the state pension.
-For single people aged 24 cut the dole to €125 per week, same with people aged 22 and 23.
-Cut child benefit to €100 per month for the first child.
-Any unemployed couple who have seldom or never worked and the female becomes pregnant should have their kids taken off them and placed in foster care (I'm not referring to couples who have lost their jobs in the last 2 years)
- Someone who turns down two job offers should lose all welfare benefits.
- Stop giving houses to single parents under 30, make them live at home with their own parents.
- Reduce rent allowance by 15-20%.

ardmacha · 24-05-2010 12:21AM

Any pensioner who has annual income of more than €450 per week should be exempt from the state pension.

I would be totally against this as it would encourage people not to save or arrange private pensions.

McCruiskeen · 24-05-2010 12:22AM

rightwingdub wrote: »

-Any unemployed couple who have seldom or never worked and the female becomes pregnant should have their kids taken off them and placed in foster care (I'm not referring to couples who have lost their jobs in the last 2 years)
.

I really hope you are joking because if you are not this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on boards.

and there are a lot of nutjobs around here.

Demonon · 24-05-2010 03:20AM

McCruiskeen wrote: »

I really hope you are joking because if you are not this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on boards.

and there are a lot of nutjobs around here.

Agreed. Cutting their money would benefit the country more than actually taking the kids into care (costing the state thousands).

dan_d · 24-05-2010 08:45AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

Everyone gets told that and yes, it is utter rubbish. Some people work hard and get rewarded but I find that the ones who go furthest often do so by lying, cheating, playing the system or simple good old lady luck tips their dice.

It's not fair but life rarely is.

Well, that's particularly true in Ireland. We specialise in getting one up on everyone else by any means possible.

As Captain Chaos says the cost of living has to drop. However the cost of living is directly affected by the amount of money people have at their disposal. Unfortunately, the time period while wages drop and cost of living takes time, and we feel the pain. And even more unfortunately, I don't think wages have dropped enough across the board yet to drastically affect the cost of living. Unfortunately.

OMD · 24-05-2010 10:01AM

dan_d wrote: »

Well, that's particularly true in Ireland. We specialise in getting one up on everyone else by any means possible.

As Captain Chaos says the cost of living has to drop. However the cost of living is directly affected by the amount of money people have at their disposal. Unfortunately, the time period while wages drop and cost of living takes time, and we feel the pain. And even more unfortunately, I don't think wages have dropped enough across the board yet to drastically affect the cost of living. Unfortunately.

But the cost of living has fallen. We have had deflation for the past 16 months. Prices are now back at 2007 levels.

24-05-2010 11:14AM

I'm sorry but if you're single and moaning about how you can't survive on the dole at the moment:

You're doing it wrong.

I'm on 196 a week and I'm saving over 100 euros of it. That said I've given up drinking so I'm not wasting money in the pub, but I do smoke which is probably where the majority of money I spend goes (sadly).

I'd love to see a list of someone's (honest) outgoings who says they can't survive on it. I would guess that a day or two less in the pub (or some such similar WASTE) might sort that out.

The Dole is too much, end of. If you can't see that then I'm afraid you are living in cloud cuckoo land, and you are representative of what is wrong with the average Irish person.

unamused · 24-05-2010 12:06PM

my spends from 196 p/w

30 euro on esb bill per week
30 euro on tv bill per week
30 euro on gas bill per week
30 euro towards rent per week
50 euro on food shopping per week
and 16euro a week to get to and from hospital to see my sick mam
its a very tight budget

Pete4779 · 24-05-2010 12:16PM

unamused wrote: »

my spends from 196 p/w

30 euro on esb bill per week
30 euro on tv bill per week
30 euro on gas bill per week
30 euro towards rent per week
50 euro on food shopping per week
and 16euro a week to get to and from hospital to see my sick mam
its a very tight budget

How on earth are you spending €120/month on television! I think it would be less tight for you if you changed that.

Pete4779 · 24-05-2010 12:18PM

ardmacha wrote: »

you are "hopefully morgan kelly is right"

Germany, for instance. Of course you can say that Germany can better afford these salaries than here, largely because they also collect enough tax to run their services which we do not. But wishing for economic collapse so that people will be paid less is not acceptable.

The tax rate in Ireland is now considerably higher than Germany at incomes over €40k. The difference is the Germans don't pay out huge welfare payments (either to unemployed or banks), but fund services.

unamused · 24-05-2010 12:20PM

its tv broadband and a phone service from ntl need it as i just cant pay for a mobile phone

harr · 24-05-2010 12:42PM

hi
just to give you my story,i started work at 15 and had been working up untill last year i am 37 now,i was taking home about 500 euro, but we had our first son last year who was born with down syndrome this meant me our my wife was going to have to give up work since she was in a better job i gave up work to become his full time carer,i now get 197 euro from that.my wifes wages barely covers our moratge,esb,phone bills,credit union for the month.for our day to day costs we have use what i get from the social with 3 kids to feed and a car to run it is getting very hard to live.it got so bad last week i was looking down the back of couch because my daughter was ment to bring in 5 euro for a school trip.what do i say to her when i cant even send her on the school tour.so a cut in social wefare would sink us,a lot of people have no choice but to be on social

maninasia · 24-05-2010 01:01PM

halkar wrote: »

900k people :eek: That is almost quarter of the population. If you remove the kids, public workers etc not many left working. And remove the workers that are not in the tax bands out of this. And and they still want to tax high earners to run them out of the country.
We are doomed :mad:

A Communist-Socialist-Public-Bankcracy.

This doesn't even count the other 300,000 state workers...whoops.

BeeDI · 24-05-2010 01:09PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I'm sorry but if you're single and moaning about how you can't survive on the dole at the moment:
You're doing it wrong.

I'm on 196 a week and I'm saving over 100 euros of it. That said I've given up drinking so I'm not wasting money in the pub, but I do smoke which is probably where the majority of money I spend goes (sadly).

I'd love to see a list of someone's (honest) outgoings who says they can't survive on it. I would guess that a day or two less in the pub (or some such similar WASTE) might sort that out.

The Dole is too much, end of. If you can't see that then I'm afraid you are living in cloud cuckoo land, and you are representative of what is wrong with the average Irish person.

Spot on there! Thing is you have adopted the philosphy of buying what you need in the amount you need when you need it, as opposed to buying what you think you want. It's the "gotta have stuff" mindset which got us into the slurry hole in the first place.

dan_d · 24-05-2010 01:16PM

harr wrote: »

hi
just to give you my story,i started work at 15 and had been working up untill last year i am 37 now,i was taking home about 500 euro, but we had our first son last year who was born with down syndrome this meant me our my wife was going to have to give up work since she was in a better job i gave up work to become his full time carer,i now get 197 euro from that.my wifes wages barely covers our moratge,esb,phone bills,credit union for the month.for our day to day costs we have use what i get from the social with 3 kids to feed and a car to run it is getting very hard to live.it got so bad last week i was looking down the back of couch because my daughter was ment to bring in 5 euro for a school trip.what do i say to her when i cant even send her on the school tour.so a cut in social wefare would sink us,a lot of people have no choice but to be on social

To be fair, someone in your position should be means tested for a higher allowance, as a seperate thing altogether. You shouldn't be tied into only the dole - possibly remove the dole as your allowance and tie you into a HSE administered scheme.....in an ideal world, obviously, where we have a properly run system.Surely you should have some sort of carer's allowance.

OMD · 24-05-2010 01:18PM

unamused wrote: »

my spends from 196 p/w

30 euro on esb bill per week
30 euro on tv bill per week
30 euro on gas bill per week
30 euro towards rent per week
50 euro on food shopping per week
and 16euro a week to get to and from hospital to see my sick mam
its a very tight budget

Unamused these are crazy figures. I live in a very large house (by most peoples standards) and am employed. I do not spend this kind of money. My gas bill a month averages €24 a week (which is high in my opinion)
electricity €18
UPC (TV, Phone & Broadband including calls) €17

I am not suggesting that surviving on dole is easy but you could easily make some major savings.

BehindTheScenes · 24-05-2010 01:27PM

The dole is definetly going down at the next budget and more than likely at the one after it.

Anyone that says it's your own fault for taking on to much debt is right. Although it's not your fault that you were made redundant.

So to balance this out stop paying the credit card, mortgage and bank loan. Then you will have aload of people on here complaining that you are not meeting your commitments and you personally are putting the country in a worse position.

Screw them because they screwed you.

Possible social welfare cuts in Ireland?

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