Possible social welfare cuts in Ireland?

funnyname

It's gas that there's no real mention of possible cuts here but the new UK government are going to make cuts even though the dole in the UK is less than half of what it is here.

changes

Our system is a joke, there is an article in the donegal democrat today where a man defrauded the state by 15,000. He only has to pay back €6 a week and he will not have to pay a cent over the 15,000 overall. This is why nobody fears the consequencces of social welfare fraud.

Cut it by 10% and offer a 6 month amnesty to social welfare fraudsters and then anyone caught after that date faces jail and must pay it all back in as short a time as possible.

Eliot Rosewater

funnyname wrote: »

It's gas that there's no real mention of possible cuts here but the new UK government are going to make cuts even though the dole in the UK is less than half of what it is here.

But didn't you hear? The cost of living in the UK is 20% lower, hence why the dole is 50% lower.


(You have to multiply by the "I'm really grasping at straws" factor of 5/2.)

WalterMitty

I was watching euronews channel and they were interviewing a greek firefighter. He only gets 800euro a month and now is being cut 30% on top of that. He is part time as fires are much more common in summer. Someone on dole here gets more than him!
For someone with little skills or education doing a job for a tenner an hour (good rate by european standards) has no attraction as you get nearly as much or more in some cases while on social welfare. 150a week is more than enough to feed yourself , buy basic clothes and pay essential bills.

http://www.yidio.com/greek-family-of-four-on-626-euros-per-month/id/1827313952

funnyname

Cuts lead to lower prices then the higher cost of living is negated!

Simples!

gandalf

Social Welfare, Pensions and Tax bands will be hit in the next budget or sooner if another emergancy budget is needed.

elius

Have any of you sat back and looked at the amount of debt being serviced buy people on the dole?
Why should people who payed tax in my case 8yrs be held responsible for are incompetent government? And there **** up of the irish economy.
196 pays for sweet f all. And god-forbid if any of you find yourselves on the dole you will be sure to find out. I went from €2500-2700 a month to €784 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

WalterMitty

elius wrote: »

Have any of you sat back and looked at the amount of debt being serviced buy people on the dole?
Why should people who payed tax in my case 8yrs be held responsible for are incompetent government? And there **** up of the irish economy.
196 pays for sweet f all. And god-forbid if any of you find yourselves on the dole you will be sure to find out. I went from €2500-2700 a month to €784 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

the country cant afford the 20billion a year that is being paid in social welfare. Anyone struggling to make repayments could be helped out under another scheme but 200 a week for 900,000 people (unemployed,OAPs,disabled,single mothers etc) is just unaffordable at present.

Cavehill Red

elius wrote: »

Have any of you sat back and looked at the amount of debt being serviced buy people on the dole?
Why should people who payed tax in my case 8yrs be held responsible for are incompetent government? And there **** up of the irish economy.
196 pays for sweet f all. And god-forbid if any of you find yourselves on the dole you will be sure to find out. I went from €2500-2700 a month to €784 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

There needs to be a much bigger gap between UA and UB.
There also needs to be cuts, I'm afraid. That's unavoidable. The current situation is the worst of all worlds - we remain an attractive prospect for economic migrants to come and obtain benefits here that Greek firemen couldn't earn by working.
Yet we're borrowing at ridiculous interest rates to pay that bill, with a dwindling tax base.
If we default, the IMF will be in implementing much worse.

oppenheimer1

elius wrote: »

Have any of you sat back and looked at the amount of debt being serviced buy people on the dole?
Why should people who payed tax in my case 8yrs be held responsible for are incompetent government? And there **** up of the irish economy.
196 pays for sweet f all. And god-forbid if any of you find yourselves on the dole you will be sure to find out. I went from €2500-2700 a month to €784 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

The dole isn't designed to service debt, Its meant to tide you over until you find a job. It should be used to feed, clothe you and keep a roof over your head.

elius

WalterMitty wrote: »

t Anyone struggling to make repayments could be helped out under another scheme

Whats the scheme?

WalterMitty

elius wrote: »

Whats the scheme?

I think theres a scheme where they will pay interest on your mortgage for a year or two. Maybe this could be expanded. Some people may never be able to get work earning enough to clear their debts so they will have to sell up their house to clear all or most of their debts. if they have neg equity there should be a scheme to help them walk away from their unaffordable debts but it must be a last resort like UK's bankruptcy laws.

elius

Cavehill Red wrote: »

There needs to be a much bigger gap between UA and UB.
There also needs to be cuts, I'm afraid. That's unavoidable. The current situation is the worst of all worlds - we remain an attractive prospect for economic migrants to come and obtain benefits here that Greek firemen couldn't earn by working.
Yet we're borrowing at ridiculous interest rates to pay that bill, with a dwindling tax base.
If we default, the IMF will be in implementing much worse.

So why not limit the amount that migrants can claim.
I no myself its going to be cut its logic. I just hope they have something in place for people who cant afford to pay mortgage repayments, Loans, credit cards people who will really struggle. And there is alot of people out there who will stuggle. There was people talking the mick out of the SW system during the good times. Which really gets to me.

loldog

funnyname wrote: »

Cuts lead to lower prices then the higher cost of living is negated!

Simples!

In a closed economy, maybe but not in a small open economy dependent on imports.

.

zootroid

You must take responsibility for your own choices though. Even though you are in debt, you weren't forced into debt. You can't expect to earn at least 2500 a month forever, you have to live within your means and save for a rainy day. You are getting a hell of a lot more money on the dole than most other EU countries, and yet you complain about being made responsible for the governments mistakes. I am thankful that I'm not unemployed in the UK, as I would find it a lot harder to survive there than I do here.

The government has made mistakes, which are having an effect on everyone. And we are now borrowing 20 billion a year, which is just madness. So cuts have to be made everywhere, social welfare, the public sector wage bill, the only place I wouldn't cut is capital expenditure. The alternative to not cutting anything is not being able to borrow money in the future, and having such a large percentage of our tax revenues going to simply pay the interest on what we borrow today.

By the way, I'm on the dole myself. But I'm probably lucky in the sense that I have no debts and I have nobody relying on me.

elius

WalterMitty wrote: »

I think theres a scheme where they will pay interest on your mortgage for a year or two. Maybe this could be expanded. Some people may never be able to get work earning enough to clear their debts so they will have to sell up their house to clear all or most of their debts. if they have neg equity there should be a scheme to help them walk away from their unaffordable debts but it must be a last resort like UK's bankruptcy laws.

But where do these people go? If they dont have an income to cover there mortgage they will be barley be able to cover rent.. Its a no win

Cavehill Red

elius wrote: »

So why not limit the amount that migrants can claim.

Because we can't. Most of them are EU citizens with the same rights as Irish people in Ireland.
Blame the second vote on Nice.

elius wrote: »

I no myself its going to be cut its logic. I just hope they have something in place for people who cant afford to pay mortgage repayments, Loans, credit cards people who will really struggle. And there is alot of people out there who will stuggle. There was people talking the mick out of the SW system during the good times. Which really gets to me.

They probably won't have anything in place like you describe. They will try to prevail on the banks not to pursue evictions and so on. What they should have done is nationalise the three banks, jailed the fraudsters responsible for the crash, and then they would have been in a position to look after those struggling to service unreasonable debts.
Stopping the medieval jailing of debtors would be one thing they could do, of course.

WalterMitty

elius wrote: »

But where do these people go? If they dont have an income to cover there mortgage they will be barley be able to cover rent.. Its a no win

They would be entitled to social housing or to have a property rented for them if they are on welfare.

Demonon

WalterMitty wrote: »

They would be entitled to social housing or to have a property rented for them if they are on welfare.

Would be alright if whatever retard was in charge in the late 1980's hadn't sold 220,000 local authority council houses to the tenants at hugely discounted prices leading to the current undersupply of social housing which means the government have to fork over €1000/month to private landlords in rent allowance payments.

Sigh.

Demonon

Oh look at that it was the honest, upstanding Fianna Fail TD "Charles Haughey" in charge from 1987-1992.

Quelle surprise.

Demonon

WalterMitty wrote: »

They would be entitled to social housing or to have a property rented for them if they are on welfare.

To be honest, as I've mentioned there in the last posts with the governments current "pay the landlords €1000/month in rent allowance to house social welfare tenants" scheme, the state would be much better off financially to alternatively provide some assistance to home-owners having difficulty paying their mortgage. Maybe something in conjunction with the banks.

funnyname

loldog wrote: »

In a closed economy, maybe but not in a small open economy dependent on imports.

.

Well if those imports are coming from other countries with a significantly lower cost of living then that will help drive down the cost of living in Ireland.

irishh_bob

elius wrote: »

Have any of you sat back and looked at the amount of debt being serviced buy people on the dole?
Why should people who payed tax in my case 8yrs be held responsible for are incompetent government? And there **** up of the irish economy.
196 pays for sweet f all. And god-forbid if any of you find yourselves on the dole you will be sure to find out. I went from €2500-2700 a month to €784 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

due to our weird tax system , a large percentage of those now on the dole would have paid bugger all tax this past decade or more

The_Honeybadger

irishh_bob wrote: »

due to our weird tax system , a large percentage of those now on the dole would have paid bugger all tax this past decade or more

I was on the top rate of tax during the boom, my income has now fallen to about 32k due to being made redundant and changing jobs. I pay very little net tax now, fair enough. However do i not pay alot of indirect taxes? I spend about 3k pa on petrol to commute, heating oil and vat on all the other services I use, car tax & insurance etc, I'd be very interested to know what this amounts to in a year, and how much actual tax I pay, saying that somebody is not on the top rate doesn't tell the full story. Not disagreeing with you but I'm curious about how true it actually is to say the lower paid in the workforce pay no tax at all.

invinciblePRSTV

It would be an unjust decision, but not surprising given the political strength of Middle Ireland, to impose swinging cuts on dole payments but refuse to means test either the state pension, OAP medical cards or child benefit. Stop giving these state subventions to people whose financial situations clearly don't need government support before targetting the most vulnerable.

irishh_bob wrote: »

due to our weird tax system , a large percentage of those now on the dole would have paid bugger all tax this past decade or more

Thats if the large percentage you talk of were actually on the minimum wage or worked p/t prior to claiming the dole, care to prove with hard stats this assumption you make?

dan_d

About to go on the dole myself and I've no illusions about it. Going from 2600k a month to about 700eur is not going to be a happy situation. I am paying insurance to cover my mortgage payments, as I do not believe in relying on the state for that bill....the dole will literally be putting food in my mouth and paying my ESB, Gas and internet (for job hunting) bills, while I hunt as hard as I can for another job. There is no doubt about it though, that social welfare needs to be cut. I know people who won't take jobs that pay up to about 25k, because they get more from the system by remaining unemployed. And that makes me sick to be quite honest, because my feeling is that I don't want to draw the dole, I don't want hand outs. Even though I've paid tax for it for the last few years and I'm entitled to it.I'll do any job I can get - 2 if I have to - I just don't want to be stuck on it indefinitely. Yet there's scam artists out there making a living from being handed my tax money every week, and nobody is doing a thing about it. And God forbid anybody tries to, the bleeding hearts brigade will be out in force. The dole is supposed to feed you while you try to find another job. It's not supposed to maintain you in your current lifestyle. Irish people have a serious problem with that concept.

Spudmonkey

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Thats if the large percentage you talk of were actually on the minimum wage or worked p/t prior to claiming the dole, care to prove with hard stats this assumption you make?

To be fair, he may be referring to welfare scroungers rather than those who were working?

invinciblePRSTV

Spudmonkey wrote: »

To be fair, he may be referring to welfare scroungers rather than those who were working?

Well Irish Bob did reference Irelands '"unique"' tax system when he made his point, a reference i believe to the lowest paid people in the workforce having been taken out of the tax net at the start of the decade (2001 i think?). Then he made the correlation that these same people were now most likely unemployed and claiming benefits, an opinion i'd disagree with unless some stats proving it are forthcoming.

danman

Dan_d, Good luck in your hunt.

I got made redundant last year, I persevered and got another job. It's not ideal (215 miles from home), but needs must.

I hope you're as lucky too.

The_Honeybadger

danman wrote: »

Dan_d, Good luck in your hunt.

I got made redundant last year, I persevered and got another job. It's not ideal (215 miles from home), but needs must.

I hope you're as lucky too.

Same as that, I was let go from one job, and had another within a few months, the gods smiled on me as it was only 50km from where I live, although I took an enormous drop in salary I didn't care once i was off the dole. I really don't understand how some people are quite happy to be on the dole long-term, it was the darkest period of my entire life as I was always used to well paid employment, couldn't tell one day from the next after a while. Keep the chin up anyway Dan-d, you never know what opportunities are around the corner and there is still some recruitment happening even now.

RichardAnd

dan_d wrote: »

About to go on the dole myself and I've no illusions about it. Going from 2600k a month to about 700eur is not going to be a happy situation. I am paying insurance to cover my mortgage payments, as I do not believe in relying on the state for that bill....the dole will literally be putting food in my mouth and paying my ESB, Gas and internet (for job hunting) bills, while I hunt as hard as I can for another job. There is no doubt about it though, that social welfare needs to be cut. I know people who won't take jobs that pay up to about 25k, because they get more from the system by remaining unemployed. And that makes me sick to be quite honest, because my feeling is that I don't want to draw the dole, I don't want hand outs. Even though I've paid tax for it for the last few years and I'm entitled to it.I'll do any job I can get - 2 if I have to - I just don't want to be stuck on it indefinitely. Yet there's scam artists out there making a living from being handed my tax money every week, and nobody is doing a thing about it. And God forbid anybody tries to, the bleeding hearts brigade will be out in force. The dole is supposed to feed you while you try to find another job. It's not supposed to maintain you in your current lifestyle. Irish people have a serious problem with that concept.

My hat is off to you man for this, simply honest truth. I heard on the radio last summer, a woman who was offered a min wage job in IKEA decided to call Joe Duffy to complain that it was 9 euro an hour and that she was better of on all her social welfare payments. The frightening thing was that alot of people called up to tell her she was right.

I have friends on the dole who turned down low paid jobs because they consider themselves to be too "qualified" to take them. Like you, I'd take pretty much any job rather than draw the dole. The idea of standing in a line waiting for a handout absolutely terrifies me.

With a healthy attitude like yours, I'd say you'll get back to work soon. Good luck to you mate

DidierMc

dan_d wrote: »

About to go on the dole myself and I've no illusions about it. Going from 2600k a month to about 700eur is not going to be a happy situation. I am paying insurance to cover my mortgage payments, as I do not believe in relying on the state for that bill....the dole will literally be putting food in my mouth and paying my ESB, Gas and internet (for job hunting) bills, while I hunt as hard as I can for another job. There is no doubt about it though, that social welfare needs to be cut. I know people who won't take jobs that pay up to about 25k, because they get more from the system by remaining unemployed. And that makes me sick to be quite honest, because my feeling is that I don't want to draw the dole, I don't want hand outs. Even though I've paid tax for it for the last few years and I'm entitled to it.I'll do any job I can get - 2 if I have to - I just don't want to be stuck on it indefinitely. Yet there's scam artists out there making a living from being handed my tax money every week, and nobody is doing a thing about it. And God forbid anybody tries to, the bleeding hearts brigade will be out in force. The dole is supposed to feed you while you try to find another job. It's not supposed to maintain you in your current lifestyle. Irish people have a serious problem with that concept.

Well maybe one of our hero entrepreneurs like Bill Cullen will give you a job selling cars? Be prepared to work for free for a month first though.

And don't think you are any better than anyone else on the dole, you are just another statistic like every other person on it.

dan_d

Thanks for all the support guys.

DidierMc I think you missed my point. I don't want to be a statistic. I never said anything about being better or worse than anyone. All I said was that I don't want hand outs, I want to work, but there are people in this country who make a career out of how much they can get from the Gov for free, and that annoys me. And most other people too.
I've already volunteered to help a friend out in her business for free, so I'll have something to do. I think I've covered that part for the moment. In the meantime, all I can do is try and do as much as I can with my free time so I'm not sitting at home worrying.

RichardAnd I know exactly what you mean, it terrifies me too. I can't stand the idea that I mightn't be independent, I'm relying on the State.The hardest part is not knowing when the next paycheck will come in.

I still think social welfare should be cut however....we've got a problem when it's more profitable not to work.

And I'm a girl.....!!!!!!!!

RichardAnd

dan_d wrote: »

And I'm a girl.....!!!!!!!!

Hmm, I honestly thought you were a guy . Must be the name so I'll say good luck to you miss instead .

DidierMc

dan_d wrote: »

Thanks for all the support guys.

DidierMc I think you missed my point. I don't want to be a statistic. I never said anything about being better or worse than anyone. All I said was that I don't want hand outs, I want to work, but there are people in this country who make a career out of how much they can get from the Gov for free, and that annoys me. And most other people too.
I've already volunteered to help a friend out in her business for free, so I'll have something to do. I think I've covered that part for the moment. In the meantime, all I can do is try and do as much as I can with my free time so I'm not sitting at home worrying.

RichardAnd I know exactly what you mean, it terrifies me too. I can't stand the idea that I mightn't be independent, I'm relying on the State.The hardest part is not knowing when the next paycheck will come in.

I still think social welfare should be cut however....we've got a problem when it's more profitable not to work.

And I'm a girl.....!!!!!!!!

The vast majority of the people on the dole want to work. Explain to me how you are any different?

domrush

They only want to work if it's for 35k+ a year

DidierMc

domrush wrote: »

They only want to work if it's for 35k+ a year

Show me one job vacancy in Ireland that cannot be filled right now

domrush

At top of page woman unwilling to work at Ikea

DidierMc

domrush wrote: »

At top of page woman unwilling to work at Ikea

So IKEA couldn't get anyone else to do the job?

domrush

I'm just using it as an example of the attitude among many recently unemployed.
For example I doubt there have been many applications to McDonalds from architects recently laid off. People seem to think that some jobs are just below them.

DidierMc

domrush wrote: »

I'm just using it as an example of the attitude among many recently unemployed.
For example I doubt there have been many applications to McDonalds from architects recently laid off. People seem to think that some jobs are just below them.

I'm asking you to show me any positions that cannot be filled. You seem to be under the illusion that there are loads of jobs out there but people are just too snobby to take them. There's no jobs, not even in McDonalds.

halkar

WalterMitty wrote: »

the country cant afford the 20billion a year that is being paid in social welfare. Anyone struggling to make repayments could be helped out under another scheme but 200 a week for 900,000 people (unemployed,OAPs,disabled,single mothers etc) is just unaffordable at present.

900k people :eek: That is almost quarter of the population. If you remove the kids, public workers etc not many left working. And remove the workers that are not in the tax bands out of this. And and they still want to tax high earners to run them out of the country.
We are doomed :mad:

DidierMc

halkar wrote: »

900k people :eek: That is almost quarter of the population. If you remove the kids, public workers etc not many left working. And remove the workers that are not in the tax bands out of this. And and they still want to tax high earners to run them out of the country.
We are doomed :mad:

I want to run high earners out of the country. Seize all their wealth first of course.

halkar

DidierMc wrote: »

I want to run high earners out of the country. Seize all their wealth first of course.

Not all high earners are bankers or TDs or HSE consultants. There are a good few thousand ordinary honest skilled workers earn close to 100k.

johnnyjb

I hate when the employed try to dictate what unwillingly unemployed people are entitled to.Any one who thinks cutting out the dole or reducing it to a pathetic level like 60 euro deserves to be fired and try live on that amount.I was never unemoloyed till recession and never cheated the system. Its a case of screw the rest cause their afraid of losing a few quid out of their wages. Do people not realise their parents were getting childrens allowance etc. from the state when they were ****ting their nappies but have a sort of superior complex about "second class citizens" on dole. But they seem to forget that and have the cheek to criticise people who are struggling. If they cut off long term unemployable spongers it might make up the difference.

Ive no problem taking a little hit but also no problem collecting the money from the post office.People keep comparing us to other countries, do you think we should just drop all standards and do what our neighbours are doing. This is ireland not england etc..we have to figure it out ourselves not follow the leader.

DidierMc

halkar wrote: »

Not all high earners are bankers or TDs or HSE consultants. There are a good few thousand ordinary honest skilled workers earn close to 100k.

I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about millionaire parasites like Bono and Denis O'Brien who pay no tax anyway.

Saadyst

I recall reading somewhere on this forum that the dole only accounts for €5 billion a year.... there's another €15 billion that's going to things like child benefit and whatever else. I might be wrong, but I think I did read that here in a breakdown.


Anyway, it's all great people saying the dole should be cut, impose a time limit etc. When the country is in the crapper. Fair-weather friends?

Don't forget that it's around 12%~ unemployed now. Is it a smart idea to have them out their houses or at the end of some debt recovery legal action etc etc - making it even harder for them to find work? At the end of the day it doesn't help the economy in the long term.

I'll bet you'll be happy when it's boom time again and this 12% you shunned is contributing a healthy amount to the economy.

RichardAnd

DidierMc wrote: »

I want to run high earners out of the country. Seize all their wealth first of course.

My dad is a high earner and he most defiantly EARNED his money. He started out as a metal worker and worked his way to where he is today. Socialist crap like this above statement is a symptom of the short-sighted attitude that cause the recession.

dan_d

DidierMc wrote: »

The vast majority of the people on the dole want to work. Explain to me how you are any different?

I'm not any different, and I'm not explaining my point again. I think I've made myself quite clear - I'm not referring to myself, but to those who make a career out of sponging off the state.

Johnnyjb makes a good point about cutting off long term unemployed spongers - that's definitely part of our problem. More effort needs to be put into keeping a check on people. But I still think part of the strategy needs to be lowering the level of welfare. The pool of people being taxed isn't that big, and it's shrinking rapidly. We don't need to drop it to absolute pittance, but we need to drop it. We just can't afford it anymore.

danbohan

elius wrote: »

Have any of you sat back and looked at the amount of debt being serviced buy people on the dole?
Why should people who payed tax in my case 8yrs be held responsible for are incompetent government? And there **** up of the irish economy.
196 pays for sweet f all. And god-forbid if any of you find yourselves on the dole you will be sure to find out. I went from €2500-2700 a month to €784 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

and because you cant pay your debts , its the countrys/ goverments fault / problem ?. hopefully morgan kelly is right , the reality of the imf can come fast enough

danbohan

danbohan wrote: »

and because you cant pay your debts , its the countrys/ goverments fault / problem ?. hopefully morgan kelly is right , the reality of the imf can come fast enough

You realise that the IMF will rip employed people to shreds, too, right?

Or are you purposely being ignorant to troll the thread?