Multiculturalism: French versus British attitudes. Which do you favour?

Dionysus · 19-05-2010 03:08PM #1

France has just followed Belgium and banned the Muslim veil:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0519/breaking43.html

Should Ireland follow the French approach to multiculturalism and ban things which they perceive are not compatible with French culture, or the British approach and allow such things?

I think the French approach to multiculturalism generally - "integration" - is far more intelligent and can only make that society stronger in the long run. I know I wouldn't bother moving to any society and expect that society to sacrifice its own community identity to accommodate me. Fairness must work both ways. More specifically, it has been the commercial need for cheap labour rather than the creation of sustainable societies which has been driving multicultural policies to date.

Sykk · 19-05-2010 03:12PM

Dead right.. Just because a religion is popular doesn't mean that they are protected by the law if 'discriminated against'.

If that was the case, I could create my own religion where I'm allowed wear a balaclava and carry a baseball bat with me.. If anyone says anything to me I'll have them done for discrimination.

I wouldn't be comfortable around anyone with their face covered. Religious or not.

bonerm · 19-05-2010 03:13PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Should Ireland follow the French approach to multiculturalism and ban things which they perceive are not compatible with French culture, or the British approach and allow such things?

I think we should follow neither and go with Japan's idea of killer robots.

epgc3fyqirnbsx · 19-05-2010 03:14PM

It's not even a religious requirement either, just a form of oppression/control, you don't see many burkha's in Turkey

I definitely go for the French approach, English approach has been a disaster and it's gonna get worse, in some cities it's bloody tribal

speedboatchase · 19-05-2010 03:15PM

I'm opposed to cultural relativism and believe Western culture and human rights are superior to non-Western culture and values. This doesn't mean that I'm not open or accepting of new cultures, but that we should be proud of our own laws, traditions and customs above else and foreign nationals should try to be inclusive. The failure of multiculturalism in many countries (Sweden, Holland) is when a society becomes tolerant of the intolerant

ps. referring to the Burka, anyone that walks into a bank, airport etc with their face covered is clearly a security issue. I support the French

WindSock · 19-05-2010 03:16PM

A mixture of both, there must be some give and take from both sides /fence :pac:

Winty · 19-05-2010 03:16PM

Vive la France, Ban the Veil,

When in Rome do a Roman

yoyo · 19-05-2010 03:17PM

I picked neither by accident! Meant to pick the French way, yes I agree with the french way of acting in this instance

Nick

brianthebard · 19-05-2010 03:18PM

Dionysus wrote: »

I think the French approach to multiculturalism generally - "integration" - is far more intelligent and can only make that society stronger in the long run.

France have been pushing this policy for over 200 years now and they still haven't gotten any better at it. Its definitely not making their society any stronger when you look at the ghettos that immigrants have ended up in.
Tbh neither country could or should be considered multicultural, to be genuinely multicultural you have foster a policy of equality, not subservience to the state or national citizenship above personal identity.

fontanalis · 19-05-2010 03:19PM

What's Irish culture?
Anyone been to Woodlawn or Bondi Junction?
Immigration policy should be on the terms of the host country, I think France is going overboard with banning the burka. As much as I think it's a backward symbol of sexual repression and treating women as baby machines and property, if someone is mentally ill enough to want to wear one then it's their choice really.

Winty · 19-05-2010 03:20PM

Sara Colossal Faun wrote: »

you don't see many burkha's in Turkey

The Turks think Arabs are mad, Turkey is very proud of the fact its a Republic, when you do national service you have to swear to protect the Rebuplic before all else

Little My · 19-05-2010 03:20PM

French policy is not perfect either.

Remember this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4405620.stm

wonton · 19-05-2010 03:21PM

just ban muslims

El Tarangu · 19-05-2010 03:23PM

brianthebard wrote: »

France have been pushing this policy for over 200 years now and they still haven't gotten any better at it. Its definitely not making their society any stronger when you look at the ghettos that immigrants have ended up in.
Tbh neither country could or should be considered multicultural, to be genuinely multicultural you have foster a policy of equality, not subservience to the state or national citizenship above personal identity.

The reason that France ended up with les banliues is that there weren't enough efforts made to integrate newly arrived immigrants.

epgc3fyqirnbsx · 19-05-2010 03:23PM

Winty wrote: »

The Turks think Arabs are mad, Turkey is very proud of the fact its a Republic, when you do national service you have to swear to protect the Rebuplic before all else

Thats one thing I really admire about Turkey, that the Army are there to step in if there's a threat to secularism and have done before.
There was even a big controversy a couple of years back when the presidents wife worse a headscarf

fontanalis · 19-05-2010 03:25PM

wonton wrote: »

just ban muslims

Turn them into catlicks.

fontanalis · 19-05-2010 03:26PM

Sara Colossal Faun wrote: »

Thats one thing I really admire about Turkey, that the Army are there to step in if there's a threat to secularism and have done before.
There was even a big controversy a couple of years back when the presidents wife worse a headscarf

I lived with a Turkish fella a few years ago and this came up, he was very secular and stressed the fact that he was Turkish first and muslim second.

El Tarangu · 19-05-2010 03:27PM

The more I think about it, though... banning an actual garment of clothing? What if a Christian/agnostic/wikkan decides to wear a veil?

I don't know about a ban in all public places, but I think that that a ban in amy place where a person interacts with the offices of the state (i.e. public schools, post offices, etc) is appropriate

speedboatchase · 19-05-2010 03:28PM

Little My wrote: »

French policy is not perfect either.

Remember this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4405620.stm

I do remember that - three muslim boys were chased after police were investigating a break-in, they mistakenly thought police were looking for them. Two tragically died hiding in a power station.

The response from the ethnic community?

Towns affected: 274
Property damage: 8,973 vehicles
Monetary damage: Estimated at €200 Million.
Arrests: 2,888
Deaths: 2
Police and firefighters injured: 126

The "french policy" is to blame there?

Winty · 19-05-2010 03:29PM

Sara Colossal Faun wrote: »

Thats one thing I really admire about Turkey, that the Army are there to step in if there's a threat to secularism and have done before.
There was even a big controversy a couple of years back when the presidents wife worse a headscarf

I love the Turks,

I was lucky to work in Istanbul and was in a resturant the night Pope John Paul died. The city stopped and everyone had a little pray for "Pappa"

The Turks have never forgot that after Mehmet Ağca shot him the Pope worked very hard to have Turkey as a member of the EU.

Abrasax · 19-05-2010 03:32PM

The French are doing this to protect their ideals, one of which, enshrined since the revolution, is Liberty.
So when the female solicitor attacked the Muslim convert , midweek, who chose to wear a veil, she was doing it, in accordance with the ideals of her government, in the defence of liberty.
Mmm.

speedboatchase · 19-05-2010 03:35PM

Abrasax wrote: »

The French are doing this to protect their ideals, one of which, enshrined since the revolution, is Liberty.
So when the female solicitor attacked the Muslim convert , midweek, who chose to wear a veil, she was doing it, in accordance with the ideals of her government, in the defence of liberty.
Mmm.

Nobody in their right minds who supports the ban supports that crazy woman's action

bullpost · 19-05-2010 03:39PM

Think the Americans have handled this best tbh.

Morlar · 19-05-2010 03:40PM

Considering the poll stands at

British (minority rights etc emphasised) 1 4.00%
French (integration etc emphasised) 16 64.00%

You can be pretty sure FF/Greens will follow the example that doesn't work.

IvyTheTerrible · 19-05-2010 03:43PM

What the French are doing has nothing to do with liberty or integration or anything.

It's a huge smokescreen for the media so that the government can get away with changing pension/retirement rights and the medical system and no one will notice.

speedboatchase · 19-05-2010 03:47PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

What the French are doing has nothing to do with liberty or integration or anything.

It's a huge smokescreen for the media so that the government can get away with changing pension/retirement rights and the medical system and no one will notice.

You can say any controversial law is a "smokescreen" for something else if you don't support it

digme · 19-05-2010 03:47PM

Dionysus wrote: »

France has just followed Belgium and banned the Muslim veil:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0519/breaking43.html

Should Ireland follow the French approach to multiculturalism and ban things which they perceive are not compatible with French culture, or the British approach and allow such things?

I think the French approach to multiculturalism generally - "integration" - is far more intelligent and can only make that society stronger in the long run. I know I wouldn't bother moving to any society and expect that society to sacrifice its own community identity to accommodate me. Fairness must work both ways. More specifically, it has been the commercial need for cheap labour rather than the creation of sustainable societies which has been driving multicultural policies to date.

Multiculturalism doesn't work.

IvyTheTerrible · 19-05-2010 03:50PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

You can say any controversial law is a "smokescreen" for something else if you don't support it

I know you can. But seriously the amount of time being given over to this issue in the French media, when France has much more serious things to deal with (eg being one of the biggest lenders to Greece), leads me to believe it really is a smokescreen (and I do think the burka wearing SHOULD be limited). At the very least, it's a move aimed to garner votes from the extreme right, seeing as the Front National has been gaining ground lately.

philologos · 19-05-2010 03:50PM

Sykk wrote: »

Dead right.. Just because a religion is popular doesn't mean that they are protected by the law if 'discriminated against'.

Actually, it does in numerous circumstances, including in Irish equality law. An employer is not allowed to refuse employment to someone on the basis of their religion, and likewise freedom of religion and conscience is enshrined in the Irish constitution, and indeed in the constitution of most countries. Religion is protected to the same degree as political views, sexual orientation and race.

To the OP: The French model of integration hasn't worked all that well if one considers the scheme of things in the past few years including the Paris riots. French-Arabs feel as if they are being sidelined by the Government, and I don't see how this will make it any different.

Abrasax · 19-05-2010 03:54PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

Nobody in their right minds who supports the ban supports that crazy woman's action

You mean the physical attempt to remove the veil?
What will happen if a woman continually refuses to remove her veil?

brummytom · 19-05-2010 03:54PM

I agree with the French.

Immigrants should assimilate

Multiculturalism: French versus British attitudes. Which do you favour?

Would you favour a French- or British-style approach to multicultural issues? 169 votes

Comments