Multiculturalism: French versus British attitudes. Which do you favour?

Dionysus

France has just followed Belgium and banned the Muslim veil:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0519/breaking43.html


Should Ireland follow the French approach to multiculturalism and ban things which they perceive are not compatible with French culture, or the British approach and allow such things?

I think the French approach to multiculturalism generally - "integration" - is far more intelligent and can only make that society stronger in the long run. I know I wouldn't bother moving to any society and expect that society to sacrifice its own community identity to accommodate me. Fairness must work both ways. More specifically, it has been the commercial need for cheap labour rather than the creation of sustainable societies which has been driving multicultural policies to date.

Sykk

Dead right.. Just because a religion is popular doesn't mean that they are protected by the law if 'discriminated against'.

If that was the case, I could create my own religion where I'm allowed wear a balaclava and carry a baseball bat with me.. If anyone says anything to me I'll have them done for discrimination.

I wouldn't be comfortable around anyone with their face covered. Religious or not.

bonerm

Dionysus wrote: »

Should Ireland follow the French approach to multiculturalism and ban things which they perceive are not compatible with French culture, or the British approach and allow such things?

I think we should follow neither and go with Japan's idea of killer robots.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

It's not even a religious requirement either, just a form of oppression/control, you don't see many burkha's in Turkey

I definitely go for the French approach, English approach has been a disaster and it's gonna get worse, in some cities it's bloody tribal

speedboatchase

I'm opposed to cultural relativism and believe Western culture and human rights are superior to non-Western culture and values. This doesn't mean that I'm not open or accepting of new cultures, but that we should be proud of our own laws, traditions and customs above else and foreign nationals should try to be inclusive. The failure of multiculturalism in many countries (Sweden, Holland) is when a society becomes tolerant of the intolerant

ps. referring to the Burka, anyone that walks into a bank, airport etc with their face covered is clearly a security issue. I support the French

WindSock

A mixture of both, there must be some give and take from both sides /fence :pac:

Winty

Vive la France, Ban the Veil,

When in Rome do a Roman

yoyo

I picked neither by accident! Meant to pick the French way, yes I agree with the french way of acting in this instance

Nick

brianthebard

Dionysus wrote: »

I think the French approach to multiculturalism generally - "integration" - is far more intelligent and can only make that society stronger in the long run.

France have been pushing this policy for over 200 years now and they still haven't gotten any better at it. Its definitely not making their society any stronger when you look at the ghettos that immigrants have ended up in.
Tbh neither country could or should be considered multicultural, to be genuinely multicultural you have foster a policy of equality, not subservience to the state or national citizenship above personal identity.

fontanalis

What's Irish culture?
Anyone been to Woodlawn or Bondi Junction?
Immigration policy should be on the terms of the host country, I think France is going overboard with banning the burka. As much as I think it's a backward symbol of sexual repression and treating women as baby machines and property, if someone is mentally ill enough to want to wear one then it's their choice really.

Winty

Sara Colossal Faun wrote: »

you don't see many burkha's in Turkey

The Turks think Arabs are mad, Turkey is very proud of the fact its a Republic, when you do national service you have to swear to protect the Rebuplic before all else

Little My

French policy is not perfect either.

Remember this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4405620.stm

wonton

just ban muslims

El Tarangu

brianthebard wrote: »

France have been pushing this policy for over 200 years now and they still haven't gotten any better at it. Its definitely not making their society any stronger when you look at the ghettos that immigrants have ended up in.
Tbh neither country could or should be considered multicultural, to be genuinely multicultural you have foster a policy of equality, not subservience to the state or national citizenship above personal identity.

The reason that France ended up with les banliues is that there weren't enough efforts made to integrate newly arrived immigrants.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Winty wrote: »

The Turks think Arabs are mad, Turkey is very proud of the fact its a Republic, when you do national service you have to swear to protect the Rebuplic before all else

Thats one thing I really admire about Turkey, that the Army are there to step in if there's a threat to secularism and have done before.
There was even a big controversy a couple of years back when the presidents wife worse a headscarf

fontanalis

wonton wrote: »

just ban muslims

Turn them into catlicks.

fontanalis

Sara Colossal Faun wrote: »

Thats one thing I really admire about Turkey, that the Army are there to step in if there's a threat to secularism and have done before.
There was even a big controversy a couple of years back when the presidents wife worse a headscarf

I lived with a Turkish fella a few years ago and this came up, he was very secular and stressed the fact that he was Turkish first and muslim second.

El Tarangu

The more I think about it, though... banning an actual garment of clothing? What if a Christian/agnostic/wikkan decides to wear a veil?

I don't know about a ban in all public places, but I think that that a ban in amy place where a person interacts with the offices of the state (i.e. public schools, post offices, etc) is appropriate

speedboatchase

Little My wrote: »

French policy is not perfect either.

Remember this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4405620.stm

I do remember that - three muslim boys were chased after police were investigating a break-in, they mistakenly thought police were looking for them. Two tragically died hiding in a power station.

The response from the ethnic community?

Towns affected: 274
Property damage: 8,973 vehicles
Monetary damage: Estimated at €200 Million.
Arrests: 2,888
Deaths: 2
Police and firefighters injured: 126


The "french policy" is to blame there?

Winty

Sara Colossal Faun wrote: »

Thats one thing I really admire about Turkey, that the Army are there to step in if there's a threat to secularism and have done before.
There was even a big controversy a couple of years back when the presidents wife worse a headscarf

I love the Turks,

I was lucky to work in Istanbul and was in a resturant the night Pope John Paul died. The city stopped and everyone had a little pray for "Pappa"

The Turks have never forgot that after Mehmet Ağca shot him the Pope worked very hard to have Turkey as a member of the EU.

Abrasax

The French are doing this to protect their ideals, one of which, enshrined since the revolution, is Liberty.
So when the female solicitor attacked the Muslim convert , midweek, who chose to wear a veil, she was doing it, in accordance with the ideals of her government, in the defence of liberty.
Mmm.

speedboatchase

Abrasax wrote: »

The French are doing this to protect their ideals, one of which, enshrined since the revolution, is Liberty.
So when the female solicitor attacked the Muslim convert , midweek, who chose to wear a veil, she was doing it, in accordance with the ideals of her government, in the defence of liberty.
Mmm.

Nobody in their right minds who supports the ban supports that crazy woman's action

bullpost

Think the Americans have handled this best tbh.

Morlar

Considering the poll stands at

British (minority rights etc emphasised) 1 4.00%
French (integration etc emphasised) 16 64.00%

You can be pretty sure FF/Greens will follow the example that doesn't work.

IvyTheTerrible

What the French are doing has nothing to do with liberty or integration or anything.

It's a huge smokescreen for the media so that the government can get away with changing pension/retirement rights and the medical system and no one will notice.

speedboatchase

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

What the French are doing has nothing to do with liberty or integration or anything.

It's a huge smokescreen for the media so that the government can get away with changing pension/retirement rights and the medical system and no one will notice.

You can say any controversial law is a "smokescreen" for something else if you don't support it

digme

Dionysus wrote: »

France has just followed Belgium and banned the Muslim veil:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0519/breaking43.html


Should Ireland follow the French approach to multiculturalism and ban things which they perceive are not compatible with French culture, or the British approach and allow such things?

I think the French approach to multiculturalism generally - "integration" - is far more intelligent and can only make that society stronger in the long run. I know I wouldn't bother moving to any society and expect that society to sacrifice its own community identity to accommodate me. Fairness must work both ways. More specifically, it has been the commercial need for cheap labour rather than the creation of sustainable societies which has been driving multicultural policies to date.

Multiculturalism doesn't work.

IvyTheTerrible

speedboatchase wrote: »

You can say any controversial law is a "smokescreen" for something else if you don't support it

I know you can. But seriously the amount of time being given over to this issue in the French media, when France has much more serious things to deal with (eg being one of the biggest lenders to Greece), leads me to believe it really is a smokescreen (and I do think the burka wearing SHOULD be limited). At the very least, it's a move aimed to garner votes from the extreme right, seeing as the Front National has been gaining ground lately.

philologos

Sykk wrote: »

Dead right.. Just because a religion is popular doesn't mean that they are protected by the law if 'discriminated against'.

Actually, it does in numerous circumstances, including in Irish equality law. An employer is not allowed to refuse employment to someone on the basis of their religion, and likewise freedom of religion and conscience is enshrined in the Irish constitution, and indeed in the constitution of most countries. Religion is protected to the same degree as political views, sexual orientation and race.

To the OP: The French model of integration hasn't worked all that well if one considers the scheme of things in the past few years including the Paris riots. French-Arabs feel as if they are being sidelined by the Government, and I don't see how this will make it any different.

Abrasax

speedboatchase wrote: »

Nobody in their right minds who supports the ban supports that crazy woman's action

You mean the physical attempt to remove the veil?
What will happen if a woman continually refuses to remove her veil?

brummytom

I agree with the French.


Immigrants should assimilate

Abrasax

brummytom wrote: »

Immigrants should assimilate

Agreed.
The Irish in England should stop drinking Guinness at once and immediately switch over to ale.

IvyTheTerrible

Abrasax wrote: »

You mean the physical attempt to remove the veil?
What will happen if a woman continually refuses to remove her veil?

Presumably the police will have to deal with it. It's not up to Joe Public to go round removing veils.

pickarooney

Winty wrote: »

Vive la France, Ban the Veil,

When in Rome do a Roman

She won't be happy about that.

Abrasax

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Presumably the police will have to deal with it. It's not up to Joe Public to go round removing veils.

If the police do it, well then that's ok, isn't it?
Presumably les flics will wear their own balaclavas, while dealing with the resultant riots.
How's that for irony?

Little My

Was irish banned by the english to get us to assimilate with them?

Does anyone know why exactly the english government banned the use of irish?

Dionysus

Abrasax wrote: »

Agreed.
The Irish in England should stop drinking Guinness at once and immediately switch over to ale.

But Guinness is an English company, and has been so for many decades.

pickarooney

Little My wrote: »

Does anyone know why exactly the english government banned the use of irish?

The couldn't ban sneakiness, so it was the next best thing.

speedboatchase

Abrasax wrote: »

You mean the physical attempt to remove the veil?
What will happen if a woman continually refuses to remove her veil?

She'll be knowingly breaking the law and the law will be enforced by police

Sheeps

I really don't care if Islamic women wear veils or not. Hope this helps.

Dionysus

Little My wrote: »

Was irish banned by the english to get us to assimilate with them?

Does anyone know why exactly the english government banned the use of irish?

There's a short answer, but not descriptively short enough for the average attention span.

In essence, Irish was viewed by the English colonisers as a central cause of the Irish refusal to accept English ways, cultural and political domination, and if the language were eradicated the Irish would be easier to make English, or "civilise" to use a common English term of those days.

Fortunately for the English and their language, they had some of the finest (by a long shot) and most ruthless psychopaths running their wars in Ireland to put them in the position to actually make their bans on Irish a reality.

Patricia Palmer's book is very good: Language and Conquest in Early Modern Ireland.

Pittens

If the police do it, well then that's ok, isn't it?
Presumably les flics will wear their own balaclavas, while dealing with the resultant riots.
How's that for irony?

Well most societies have restrictions on wearing what the police wear.

Ahm, my vote was for the French - I believe in assimilation not multi-culturalism - however I had forgotten about the silly veil nonsense. A burka is a form of dress, a veil is a form of dress, banning such stuff on the street is nonsense, in government jobs sensible.

The French went a bit too far.

As an aside here, I picked up a book - a primer on critical theory recently - one of the "great" philosophers therein ( a French guy) was talking about new racism - any claim by any society that people who come into their society should integrate was considered racist.

If that is not the philosophy of the State it should not be the philosophy of the public intellectuals sponsored by the State. they can believe what they want on their own dime.

Andy-Pandy

I think both cultures show what happens when you try and expand a countries empire and then it fails. France with Algerians and the UK with Pakistan and India. Ireland wont ever have the same problems, to the same extent at least that the two countries have.

Little My

Dionysus wrote: »

There's a short answer, but not descriptively short enough for the average attention span.

In essence, Irish was viewed by the English colonisers as a central cause of the Irish refusal to accept English ways, cultural and political domination, and if the language were eradicated the Irish would be easier to make English, or "civilise" to use a common English term of those days.

Fortunately for the English and their language, they had some of the finest (by a long shot) and most ruthless psychopaths running their wars in Ireland to put them in the position to actually make their bans on Irish a reality.

Patricia Palmer's book is very good: Language and Conquest in Early Modern Ireland.

Thanks for the info. I'll check out the book too.

So, could we say that it was an attempt to enforce ireland to assimilate to english/british ways?

Herb Powell

why can't we adopt a policy of "do whatever the hell you want" in terms of culture? trying to control culture is silly.

Dionysus

Little My wrote: »

Thanks for the info. I'll check out the book too.

So, could we say that it was an attempt to enforce ireland to assimilate to english/british ways?

Of course. Just as they (and the French) did in all their colonies across the world.

Pittens

why can't we adopt a policy of "do whatever the hell you want" in terms of culture? trying to control culture is silly.

Lol. How about the stoning of a homosexual then? At least for muslim homosexuals in the West?

Dionysus

Herb Powell wrote: »

why can't we adopt a policy of "do whatever the hell you want" in terms of culture? trying to control culture is silly.

Somewhere everybody, even the supposedly ultra liberals, draws a line. What is at issue is where that line is located.

It's not as if there is anybody in Irish society who is seriously advocating an open borders free-for-all for the poor of the world to share in the wealth of western societies. Or is there?

irishconvert

Sara Colossal Faun wrote: »

Thats one thing I really admire about Turkey, that the Army are there to step in if there's a threat to secularism and have done before.
There was even a big controversy a couple of years back when the presidents wife worse a headscarf

So you admire an army who impose their own rule despite what the people want?

Herb Powell

that's not what I meant, and I think you know it. I mean people of certain cultures should be allowed to express it, meet up, whatever

Pittens

It's not as if there is anybody in Irish society who is seriously advocating an open borders free-for-all for the poor of the world to share in the wealth of western societies. Or is there

Sure, that belief - no borders at all - is very common. The entire Far Left. Some of the centre left. The libertarian right.