Ghost Estates in Ireland

Tail Wagger · 11-05-2010 11:18PM

There has been a lot of anti mortgage posters or fcuk them it's all their fault, We were wise enough not to buy, we rent, bla...

It was a hard program to watch these unsuspecting and unfortunate people who purchased the home of their dreams. They took legal advice, they were given loans from Banks for these homes. These people done nothing wrong, and if it's not hard enough for them to have the Government to turn their backs on them, now ordinary working people are having a swipe at them also, for what? for not wanting to be a burden on society and buying a house of their dreams and being stuck with a house that has devalued by 50%, and you people say tough?

QuiteInterestin · 11-05-2010 11:33PM

No one was dragged into a bank with a gun to their heads and forced into taking out a mortgage and buying their house in their chosen location, realistically all of the people involved did it of their own free will and in signing up for a mortgage, promised to repay what they had borrowed within a set amount of time, be it 20/30/40 years.

While I do feel sorry for those who can no longer meet their repayments due to job losses and pay cuts and are stuck in negative equity, these people did agree to make repayments and why should it be up to the taxpayers and governments to solve things for them just because they can no longer meet their responsibilities?

hinault · 11-05-2010 11:36PM

QuiteInterestin wrote: »

No one was dragged into a bank with a gun to their heads and forced into taking out a mortgage and buying their house in their chosen location, realistically all of the people involved did it of their own free will and in signing up for a mortgage, promised to repay what they had borrowed within a set amount of time, be it 20/30/40 years.

While I do feel sorry for those who can no longer meet their repayments due to job losses and pay cuts and are stuck in negative equity, these people did agree to make repayments and why should it be up to the taxpayers and governments to solve things for them just because they can no longer meet their responsibilities?

So presumably you oppose the bailing out of banks?
They knew what they were doing - no one forced the banks hand.

You oppose the govt bailing out the banks?

Fighting Irish · 11-05-2010 11:45PM

QuiteInterestin wrote: »

No one was dragged into a bank with a gun to their heads and forced into taking out a mortgage and buying their house in their chosen location, realistically all of the people involved did it of their own free will and in signing up for a mortgage, promised to repay what they had borrowed within a set amount of time, be it 20/30/40 years.

While I do feel sorry for those who can no longer meet their repayments due to job losses and pay cuts and are stuck in negative equity, these people did agree to make repayments and why should it be up to the taxpayers and governments to solve things for them just because they can no longer meet their responsibilities?

but but but, it was the home of my dreams

Dudess · 11-05-2010 11:49PM

Even "low-cost" mortgages were extremely pricey during the boom. And e.g. uprooting to Offaly/Laois was not feasible for every Dubliner - for instance the commute, a need to be near elderly relatives. People who weren't idiots with their money are being affected by this - to gloat at them and put them down is horribly mean-spirited, as well as disingenuous. And obviously only done by people who have been barely affected, if at all, by the economic collapse.

QuiteInterestin · 12-05-2010 12:16AM

hinault wrote: »

So presumably you oppose the bailing out of banks?
They knew what they were doing - no one forced the banks hand.

You oppose the govt bailing out the banks?

I'm no economics expert, I don't pretend to be. I only agree with the bailing out of the banks because if they fell, so would the country. Did you see the Prime Time special this evening about Iceland showing what happened when their 3 main banks collapsed and the value of their currency collapsed? I'm guessing it would have been a similar case here if it had occured. As regards the banks and their dealings with developers and their reckless policy of lending to those who they knew would have difficulty in repaying, I think they should be made to answer for whatever dodgy dealings they were at.

However, the banking crisis doesn't take away from the fact that people with mortgages are responsible for their repayments, no one else. If I took out a loan to buy a car and realised after a few months I could no longer meet the repayments, could I reasonably expect the government to have to sort out what was left of my debt or let me of? I'm not trying to gloat, I genuinely feel sorry for those who are struggling when all they wanted was a family home. But for some people what they needed and what they bought were a world apart.

Back in the 80s when people were building/buying, it was common practice to move in with the bare essentials such as the kitchen, sitting room, one bedroom and bathroom and the rest had to wait. You did a room up a year if you were lucky and for many it was years before their houses were finished. In recent years people spent more then they needed to for fully decorated and furnished larger houses and had larger mortgages because of it.

12-05-2010 12:36AM

gaz wac wrote: »

Its funny, nearly every second thread on Boards about this topic, recession, houses etc has people saying " its was obvious this was going to happen" or " everyone could see it comming" !!! who ? the best heads in the world didnt see this comming !!

rant over

Some of us were caught out in the previous boom - bust cycle, so we knew what to look out for.

StupidLikeAFox · 12-05-2010 12:38AM

Fighting Irish wrote: »

People didn't think for themselves

Correct. There was so much hype surrounding the property market and people fell for it. There was pressure from developers, banks, all flashy marketing saying buy, buy, buy!

Where was the government? They are the ones who protect society by locking up criminals, setting speed limits, telling you what plant food and bath salts you are not allowed

etc, where were they?

Bertie came out after a George Lee show predicting the collapse accusing him of being unpatriotic, and with the famous "they should commit suicide line". The regulator was playing a gameboy or painting a picture or something obviously more important than something like regulating the industry, madness i tells ya! And this is where we're left.

If only we had a DeLorean and a flux capacitor.....

Joey the lips · 12-05-2010 09:26AM

QuiteInterestin wrote: »

No one was dragged into a bank with a gun to their heads and forced into taking out a mortgage and buying their house in their chosen location, realistically all of the people involved did it of their own free will and in signing up for a mortgage, promised to repay what they had borrowed within a set amount of time, be it 20/30/40 years.

While I do feel sorry for those who can no longer meet their repayments due to job losses and pay cuts and are stuck in negative equity, these people did agree to make repayments and why should it be up to the taxpayers and governments to solve things for them just because they can no longer meet their responsibilities?

Your not following the arguement and are actually being quite condescending in your approch.... Most of the discussion is not actually based around the mortage... It is based around the fact that people have an accept a 20/30/40 year mortage but the estate they live in is a complete unfinished kip...

So really looking at your analysis what do you think people who have lived up to there end of the bargin ie continueing to pay there 20/30/40 year mortage should get in return for Builders going bust and councils and goverments(the people we elect) not having adaquate controls in place to ensure that they were protected....

walshb · 12-05-2010 09:46AM

[quote=[Deleted User];65832668]For God's sake, I'm a young woman with little knowledge of economics and I could have told you it was going to happen. There was just no way house prices were going to keep rising and rising, something had to give. I looked at house prices and thought, 'that's bloody ridiculous, there's no way that house is really worth that,' not 'oooh I'd better buy now before it reaches a million euro.' I mean, did people REALLY think that a McMansion in Mullingar was going to increase in value year after year? Ireland just doesn't have the population to warrant all those new builds. It's not that I don't have sympathy for people now living on ghost estates as they weren't to know it would go SO wrong so fast, but if they hadn't an inkling something like this was going to happen, they had their heads buried in the sand.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but when precisely did you have this "vision."? It's all good claiming this after the burst. The ordinary joe soap had no real reason NOT to believe that the prices would continue to rise, now, that doesn't mean that joe soap was believing that a 350-400 k house would reach 2 million, but surely nobody was predicting that the 350-400k house would drop down to 250 and so on. That is is the issue. It didn't just stop, it dove so deeply.

I know a person who bought a grand house for 185 K in Drogheda, an absolute steal in 2005, now that
house is worth 165 K, after rising to 265 k in late 2006....Is this person included in the list of "stupid" people?

Banned Account · 12-05-2010 09:54AM

I think that there is some confusion arising from the fact that not everyone featured on the program was the victim of ghost estates. There was one couple at least who simply paid to much for their house and (with respect to them) they admitted as much - they also admitted overspending on things generally.

For the ghost estate dwellers, leaving the mortgage aside, it is really unfair that they are living in unfinished estates and I really believe that something should be done about it. Many of these estates will likely come under the possession of NAMA should the developers default on the loans. In this case, there are two options:

a) if the developers are still servicing the loans, then NAMA (which is really all of us) should allow them to forego these repayments for a period on the agreement that they use the money to complete the estates or be forced to buy back the houses at the original sale price.

b) if the developers are not servicing the loans, NAMA will re-possess the asset in which case they should either offer the tennants the option of moving to central estates (so at least they have neighbours and facitities) or else finish the estates themselves.

For those that simply overspent, I really can't see a workable solution which would not end up in the opening of floodgates. I would be tempted to hand back the keys and rent long term. It is this obsession with owning bricks and mortar at all costs which is partly responsible for our woes in the first place. Many continental countries get by nicely without feeling the need to own their own slice of God's green earth.

I'd rather rent and leave cash to my kids than slave for 30 years to pay a mortgage on a house that my kids will only have to sell anyway. Of course to do this, we would need a radical overhaul of tenancy rights in Ireland.

Joey the lips · 12-05-2010 10:05AM

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

I think that there is some confusion arising from the fact that not everyone featured on the program was the victim of ghost estates. There was one couple at least who simply paid to much for their house and (with respect to them) they admitted as much - they also admitted overspending on things generally.

For the ghost estate dwellers, leaving the mortgage aside, it is really unfair that they are living in unfinished estates and I really believe that something should be done about it. Many of these estates will likely come under the possession of NAMA should the developers default on the loans. In this case, there are two options:

a) if the developers are still servicing the loans, then NAMA (which is really all of us) should allow them to forego these repayments for a period on the agreement that they use the money to complete the estates or be forced to buy back the houses at the original sale price.

b) if the developers are not servicing the loans, NAMA will re-possess the asset in which case they should either offer the tennants the option of moving to central estates (so at least they have neighbours and facitities) or else finish the estates themselves.

For those that simply overspent, I really can't see a workable solution which would not end up in the opening of floodgates. I would be tempted to hand back the keys and rent long term. It is this obsession with owning bricks and mortar at all costs which is partly responsible for our woes in the first place. Many continental countries get by nicely without feeling the need to own their own slice of God's green earth.

I'd rather rent and leave cash to my kids than slave for 30 years to pay a mortgage on a house that my kids will only have to sell anyway. Of course to do this, we would need a radical overhaul of tenancy rights in Ireland.

I agree on all counts... The one's that overspent though I dont wish them bad however I dont think they care that i have to travel 50 miles a day. The good thing about overspending within dublin is prices will eventually catch up and even if you loose everything you still have a decent bus service to get around.

I always thought renting was a good choice myself but private renting is quite expensive and council renting.... Its a matter of your kids

haveing said all that I think your bang on.

Fighting Irish · 12-05-2010 10:25AM

ColHol wrote: »

Correct. There was so much hype surrounding the property market and people fell for it. There was pressure from developers, banks, all flashy marketing saying buy, buy, buy!

Where was the government? They are the ones who protect society by locking up criminals, setting speed limits, telling you what plant food and bath salts you are not allowed etc, where were they?

Bertie came out after a George Lee show predicting the collapse accusing him of being unpatriotic, and with the famous "they should commit suicide line". The regulator was playing a gameboy or painting a picture or something obviously more important than something like regulating the industry, madness i tells ya! And this is where we're left.

If only we had a DeLorean and a flux capacitor.....

You can't blame the gov either, people call this country a nanny state all the time. People will never evolve/better themselves until they are allowed make their own decisions and live with their own consequences

Banned Account · 12-05-2010 10:29AM

Fighting Irish wrote: »

You can't blame the gov either, people call this country a nanny state all the time. People will never evolve/better themselves until they are allowed make their own decisions and live with their own consequences

Whilst I agree with you, this lesson learning isn't made easier by excusing the banks from suffering the detrimantal consequences of making rather large oopsies!. There should ideally be one ring to rule them all, but instead we just have a collection of ringpieces sitting in the Dail.

QuiteInterestin · 12-05-2010 01:23PM

Joey the lips wrote: »

Your not following the arguement and are actually being quite condescending in your approch.... Most of the discussion is not actually based around the mortage... It is based around the fact that people have an accept a 20/30/40 year mortage but the estate they live in is a complete unfinished kip...

So really looking at your analysis what do you think people who have lived up to there end of the bargin ie continueing to pay there 20/30/40 year mortage should get in return for Builders going bust and councils and goverments(the people we elect) not having adaquate controls in place to ensure that they were protected....

Sorry for not making myself clear or if I came across as condescending, when I made my comments about the programme I had the couple from north Dublin in mind, in which the husband accepted that they had lived beyond their means while the wife felt it was up to the government and state to deal with the fall out. I suppose their story really had no place in the programme as they weren't really the traditional ghost estate. For those couples in Longford and others around the country whose estates have been left in a unfinished mess, I do feel sorry for them and hope that the relevent councils will take over the maintenance and bring them up to an appropriate standard.

Joey the lips · 12-05-2010 01:34PM

QuiteInterestin wrote: »

Sorry for not making myself clear or if I came across as condescending, when I made my comments about the programme I had the couple from north Dublin in mind, in which the husband accepted that they had lived beyond their means while the wife felt it was up to the government and state to deal with the fall out. I suppose their story really had no place in the programme as they weren't really the traditional ghost estate. For those couples in Longford and others around the country whose estates have been left in a unfinished mess, I do feel sorry for them and hope that the relevent councils will take over the maintenance and bring them up to an appropriate standard.

Yes I agree with you there. My apologies.

Tail Wagger · 12-05-2010 07:34PM

Where's all these brain stormers who have been heading off to different parts of the World with hundreds of sponsors and paying volunteers who are building homes for the poorer people in the World.

I know it's a great cause, but can someone come and start a similar project for these people who live in these Ghost Estates. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are willing to get a project like this up and going?

danbohan · 12-05-2010 07:39PM

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Where's all these brain stormers who have been heading off to different parts of the World with hundreds of sponsors and paying volunteers who are building homes for the poorer people in the World.

I know it's a great cause, but can someone come and start a similar project for these people who live in these Ghost Estates. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are willing to get a project like this up and going?

or why not get fas and apprentices who cant finish their training now the opportunity to finish off these houses ,

Tail Wagger · 12-05-2010 07:44PM

danbohan wrote: »

or why not get fas and apprentices who cant finish their training now the opportunity to finish off these houses ,

I totally agree with your view, I suggest as it's your idea why not start a post on the very subject and get peoples feedback?

Forest Master · 12-05-2010 08:06PM

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Where's all these brain stormers who have been heading off to different parts of the World with hundreds of sponsors and paying volunteers who are building homes for the poorer people in the World.

I know it's a great cause, but can someone come and start a similar project for these people who live in these Ghost Estates. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are willing to get a project like this up and going?

Haiti was a natural disaster brought on by no fault of the people - this wasn't. It was a combination of greed & irresponsibility by banks, developers, and buyers.

or why not get fas and apprentices who cant finish their training now the opportunity to finish off these houses

Amazing idea... get untrained people to finish off the work - and who pays for this? No doubt you have the logistics all worked out.

mail4liam · 12-05-2010 08:17PM

Forest Master wrote: »

Haiti was a natural disaster brought on by no fault of the people - this wasn't. It was a combination of greed & irresponsibility by banks, developers, and buyers.

Amazing idea... get untrained people to finish off the work - and who pays for this? No doubt you have the logistics all worked out.

Natural disasters do happen, but disasters from greed can be put right, no one died from our disaster.

It is an amazing idea? Where else will these trainees get experience from?
There have been plenty of cow boys working on these Ghost Estates before the doom & gloom, will they be prepared to stand up and be counted.. I don't think so!

danbohan · 12-05-2010 08:31PM

Forest Master wrote: »

Haiti was a natural disaster brought on by no fault of the people - this wasn't. It was a combination of greed & irresponsibility by banks, developers, and buyers.

Amazing idea... get untrained people to finish off the work - and who pays for this? No doubt you have the logistics all worked out.

if you knew anything about the building that went on here in the '' boom'' having untrained chaps finish the work might not be so different , of course they would be supervised and trained as they do the work , and as the alternative is knock down these houses it has to be win win ,nobody has all the answers ,who pays for the social welfare for unemployed apprentices /building workers or maybe they will just emigrate and make Fianna fail/ greens happy

soups05 · 13-05-2010 12:58AM

i'm gonna get some grief for this but let me give you some instight if i may. back in 99 i wanted to buy a house locally for 34,000 pounds. the bank would not give me a morgage.i changed jobs in 2000 and tried again. this time the house i wanted (in the same estate) was at 68,000. no chance said the bank.
my family told me i was mad to buy at that price,the houses were not worth it. so i ended up buying my council house. 18,000 when i priced in 99 jumped to 36,000 in 2000.
for reasons i cant go into i was forced to sell in 05 for 70,000 euro after spending 30,000 euro on upgrading the house.
i finally bought in the estate i wanted for 120,000 on a 25 year morgage. by this time the houses were going for around 140,000 but i got lucky. the prices peaked at around 300,000. for 6/7 years most people were waiting for the price to come down but it kept going up. all i wanted was to buy a decent house in the area i grew up in. these were houses built in the 50's not your new ghost estates. i do feel lots of people spent too much on houses but i also feel that many were panicked into it.
as it stands my house is currently worth around 145,000 euro. i'm happy with that of course and i plan to live the rest of my life here. a neighbour bought his at 285,000 and planned to move out after 5 years with a huge profit. i think he was foolish and will be here awhile but i still feel sorry for him as he is a fairly nice bloke who admits he got greedy

Orange69 · 13-05-2010 02:24AM

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Where's all these brain stormers who have been heading off to different parts of the World with hundreds of sponsors and paying volunteers who are building homes for the poorer people in the World.

I know it's a great cause, but can someone come and start a similar project for these people who live in these Ghost Estates. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are willing to get a project like this up and going?

Its not cool, hip and fashionable to build houses for white people... sorry..

Tail Wagger · 13-05-2010 09:11AM

Orange69 wrote: »

Its not cool, hip and fashionable to build houses for white people... sorry..

Who mentioned peoples color? your going off the subject?

gaz wac · 13-05-2010 09:15AM

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Who mentioned peoples color? your going off the subject?

He's not...most ghosts are white !! .....remember casper ?

Wibbs · 13-05-2010 09:53AM

danbohan wrote: »

or why not get fas and apprentices who cant finish their training now the opportunity to finish off these houses ,

Its a nice idea, but finish them off for who? There's a huge over stock countrywide and and in many locales it's off the scale. Unless there's a demolition course, or a how to fill out a snag list course in FAS

jackal · 13-05-2010 01:02PM

The "where's my bailout" crowd really get up my nose. The banks were too big to fail, if they had been let fail the country would have been economically devestated - no money in ATM's, savings gone, etc etc. The government made a bollix of the bailout either through incompetence or fear of the FF-Developer-Bank skeletons being let out of the closets by the fallen insiders.

You, on the other hand, mere mortgage monkey, are not too big to fail. You being made bankrupt is not going to cause the country to grind to a halt.

Its not fair, but thats the truth.

I have sympathy for the people who bought into ghost estates, and the estates should be finished or knocked and relocated - the current situation is a non runner long term. However nobody forced them, there is no law in this country (though you would sometimes wonder) that you have to have signed up to a mortgage before you get married/have kids/settle. They bought into a promise, and that promise has been broken. That should be rectified.

People who bought houses that were simply over priced and are now in negative equity - they did not buy a promise. They knew exactly what they were buying and were happy to pay that amount for it.

Why do they now feel entitled to a bail out? I do not remember people who were enjoying the benefits of climbing the ladder during the boom hand-wringing about how they can help society with the ridiculous profits they were making for doing SFA.

Its a bizarre kind of capitalist/socialist hybrid mentality. I am entitled to keep whatever profits I make, but if I make losses, I expect that others will carry the can for me.

foxyboxer · 13-05-2010 02:16PM

Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something

Teflon Taoiseach Bertie Ahern 2007.

People bought property in a rising market. The average price trend was clearly up until the peak in February 2007. (source ESRI house index). Buying on strength makes a lot of sense.

However, I would not buy a property (or stocks) that's falling in price because the prevailing wisdom is "they're great value now". It's like trying to catch a falling knife! i.e. the price is falling for a reason.

On the one hand, people borrowed for houses (fair enough) but they also borrowed for cars, holidays, furnishings, TV's etc etc disobeying the old adage of "If I can't pay with cash, I can't afford it"

Economic commentators expressed their concern as is their remit to the relevant people but such was the "irrational exuberance" being experienced they were largely ignored. These kind of warnings should have been taken very seriously but as we now know even our the current Taoiseach speculated himself on apartments in Leeds. The party poopers simply weren't welcome. How could a nation as small as ours declare ourselves as the 2nd richest country in the world??. I broke up with an ex in 2006 because she was adamant on buying a house!

The celtic tiger boom enriched our parents generation and pauperised my own. I have no debt (a rational fear of mine). Yet, I pay an income levy and have taken a pay cut in the past 12 months.

Look at the Elysian in cork website which "shows the positive energy of it's inhabitants". FFS!

We do have the infrastructure to become a legitimate powerhouse economy through renewable energy, but our country needs a systemic restructuring politically to make it happen which won't happen in my lifetime.

foxyboxer · 13-05-2010 03:16PM

Dudess wrote: »

People who weren't idiots with their money are being affected by this - to gloat at them and put them down is horribly mean-spirited, as well as disingenuous. And obviously only done by people who have been barely affected, if at all, by the economic collapse.

But, those of us who have been relatively unaffected by the bust were labelled losers and unpatriotic during the hedonistic days.

"What do you mean you don't own a house?"
"You rent?, what a loser!"

I remember my brother bought a house in 2006, and when I argued against it (trying to talk common sense) he in a non-subtle barb replied "At least I can afford one!"

Ghost Estates in Ireland

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