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Where is the Libertarian explosion coming from?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    I would think the popularity of Libertarianism has benefited from the discredit of central planning after the collapse of the Soviet Union coupled with it's seemingly "common sense" approach in the face of increasing government size which is easily communicated due to the simplistic principles it preaches, primarily through the internet which allows enough time to get the general message cross without the need for discussing its finer points. It also appeals to conservatives who do not necessarily subscribe to all its notions of liberty but find the general message attractive nonetheless. Libertarians are a very loose band of ideologues and seem reactionary rather than pro actively offering a credible solution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


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    Firstly I'm not talking worldwide. In Ireland it'd be quite easy for rich men to gain a monopoly of the media, some may say that is the case already.

    Secondly i have no problem with that piece of the constitution, I'm assuming it means unjustifiably undermine the state. The media certainly haven't been silent on the failings of the current government. So while you're living beside a dump, Reading your Tony O Reilly newspaper you can be happen in the knowledge that you have the Internet..... and your private health insurance


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


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    I think you prove his point. People prefer simply messages and acting based on this preference (and short termism) dont always act in their best long term interests. Libertarianism wouldn't change this, it wouldn't change human nature, a nature that if unrestrained leads to a tragedy of the commons


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


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    Yes I'm a statist.:rolleyes: does the strawmanning not get tiring? And name the last time the constitution was used to protect the power of the state - without it being dragged through the courts (which alongside the media can act as another check on the state). The funny thing is that if the constitution was used in this way, you'd be repressed from spouting your drivel. But of course the big bad state is not as big and bad as you like us to believe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


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    The popularity of Libertarianism is actually quite like the popularity of Bertie in that respect. People could relate to Bertie because he spoke in simple terms, just like people can relate to Libertarianism because of its simple arguments. And why wouldn't you vote for Bertie if you thought you could gain, in effect politician are competing for votes by offering policies in their voters self interest. But thats beside the point we are discussing Libertarians rather than populism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


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    News Corporation controls some of the most influential news outlets e.g. The Times, The Wall Street Journal, and host of influential rags along with Sky News and Fox News. Its fair to say Rupert Murdoch holds substantial influence and persuasive power.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


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    My god. That's not the choice you are being asked to make. If it was I'd agree with you but it's not. So kindly stop bringing up totalitarian statism as the opposition to your position,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


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    Yes or No situations covering such broad ideologies rarely happen in real life and if the situation occurs it is because of ignorance that there is one right and one wrong answer.


  • Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


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    Am...did DF just say he's in favour of trade unions?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    Am...did DF just say he's in favour of trade unions?
    Ironically the ability to form a union is exercising freedom to associate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


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    I actually agree with DF here.

    Hypothetical arguments aren't very convincing, and it's rather playing into Libertarian arguements which are very much rooted in the hypothetical.
    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    I think their response to the Global Financial Crisis shows the unseriousness of most Libertarians, or at least those who identify themselves as such.

    The origin of the crisis is readily knowable. There was a basic flaw in the American Capitalist system, a flaw that was allowed to grow unchecked because of a lack of government regulation and the degradation and running down of existing regulation. This was predicated by the nonsense belief in the "hidden hand" of the market.

    The flaw was that people creating mortgages were able to sell them off to Wall Street Banks. Because the people originally brokering the loan were simply making money from selling it on they didn't do due diligence on whether the mortgagee could afford the loan. Worse then that, they started creating loans and mortgage products specifically designed to sell to people they knew couldn't afford them. The more of these bad loans they made and sold on, the more money they made. These people were merely acting in their selfish self interest – not an immoral thing by itself, but very bad for the wider financial system. Strict regulation on mortgage lending practices and on-selling would have ensured that the self interest of these people was instead tied up with making good loans that were a strong chance of being honoured. A bit like the way it's in someone's financial self interest to rob a bank, but that self interest is altered by the law against robbing banks and the significant penalties that exist against that particular action.

    What turned a mere housing bubble into the Global Financial Meltdown was the actions of the big banks who took these loans, securitised them and sold them off in bundles. These securities were incorrectly appraised by Credit Rating Agencies as Triple A or B when in reality they were rubbish. Again no due diligence was done. Credit Ratings Agencies are paid by the issuers of bonds to rate those bonds, therefore a conflict of interest exists. Actually it was no conflict at all, CRA's simply rated bonds as their major customers Bears Sterns, Goldman ect wanted. An epic failure of industry "self regulation." Overtime Wall Street developed new financial instruments and markets based on these rubbish mortgage backed securities. These markets, being new, were virtually outside the bounds of any regulation. They grew to an outrageous size. It is estimated that about 70 trillion dollars worldwide were tied up in these bogus markets. Eventually mortgagees started defaulting, the property bubble burst and these markets collapsed along with the banks and unwitting investors supporting them.

    At every step this catastrophic collapse could have been stopped or mitigated by strong government regulation. At every step it was enabled by self interest left unchecked. Yet what is the Libertarians response? And for that matter what is the response of much of the Right? The same old anti-government rhetoric, blame the Unions, blame the home buyers, blame the Greeks, blame the left – blame everyone and everything but their own discredited beliefs about the nature of self interest, "self-regulation", and the negligible role government should play in a modern Capitalist economy.

    Their unserious nature is also demonstrated by the fact that they are able to identify for blame a very minor player in the meltdown – Frannie and Freddie – but this where all their analysis stops. To go any further would be unrewarding from their point of view, so they don't. They just stick to the tired government bad, regulation bad dogma that underpins all their arguments. They simply ignore all the evidence that contradicts their outlook, and thus don't allow reality to shape their world view. Much like the Utopian Socialists of old.

    Surely, any serious Libertarian would agree that what amounts to fraud should be illegal? (ie made illegal by government and enforced as such)

    Surely, any serious Libertarian would agree that self-interest unchecked and unrestrained can be a destructive thing?

    Surely, any serious Libertarian would agree that "self regulation" has consistently failed?

    Surely not I suppose, as if they agreed with any of these things they'd be Liberals, not Libertarians.

    At what point do you think it's right to compromise with reality?

    And how outrageously opportunistic and self serving it is to endlessly attack governments for their responses to the GFC and not reflect for one moment on the cause of the crisis beyond a dogmatic cop out of "well if everything was 100% private there have been no problem!"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    Obligations should never be voluntary.

    Absolutely. Here's what happened to some enterprising migrant workers trying to improve their lot when these obligations were 'met' by the free market and lack of government response:

    http://www.ted.com/talks/cameron_sinclair_the_refugees_of_boom_and_bust.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,699 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


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    You'll rely on the media, the same hysterical media that habitually over hypes everything from the dangers of head shops to the link between autism and MMR, to the amount of sex young people are having to the amount of crime caused by immigrants.

    If you haven't already seen this website, here is an excellent source of everything the Daily Mail says causes or prevents cancer.
    http://kill-or-cure.heroku.com/

    You think relying on 'the media' to regulate standards is better than a professional body of experts undertaking careful reviews in line with best practise and evidence?

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


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    Quit trying to smear my argument by appealing to people first by the now general dislike for Bertie, and then by somehow trying to link my argument with a belief in thesim. You are not debating the topic rather than reinforcing your own religiously held belief in the market and absolute freedom with unrelated logic from different arguments. The fact is yes the there needs to be a level of leadership in society imagine trying playing a football match with no leader, and that leadership will need to appeal to the majority to get legitimacy, such is life. Libertarianism can not be achieved without some sectors of society trying to dominate others hence there must be some reasonable balance between the individual and the state.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


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    So you do think that workers are free to organise themselves to collectively bargain for better conditions etc?..you may not choose to but you cant trod on their individual freedoms..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


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    The current levels of personal indebtedness beg to differ. I'm not saying the state should control this directly but it has a role to ensure transparency and fairness through regulation which brings me back the idea that markets are designed by people. As for moral decisions that's fine as once as one person's moral decision does not impact negatively upon another which would be the case if there was no legislative support.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


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    pot calling kettle? All within the one post!!
    By contrast, the €9.3 billion Department of Education budget is currently overseen by a blithering idiot who attributes the theory of evolution to Einstein.

    so just because some ministers are totally useless means no government can be trusted?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


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    You may be correct in presuming it's all people need. Where your ideology fails is presuming people have these things, I too like to be an optimist but I realise it's better to be a realist. Your views show a complete lack if understanding of human behaviour and motivation


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    you can't have it both ways
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    how many times do you have to contradict yourself before you realise you are speaking complete sh1t?


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  • Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yeah, and DF would be of the view that yer man Neary was dead right in his role as Financial Regulator to have done f*ck all no?


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