The Frontline Animal Rights&Rural Ireland debate last night

DePurpereWolf · 16-04-2010 7:46am

Are these figures only from the pounds?

Many breeders and trainers opt to terminate their dogs if they are not succesul straight at the vet. Now the vet will try and get the hounds to a pound or other rescue organisation. But sometimes those are full, or sometimes the breeder will insist on the dogs to be put down.

-- About IGB, it's a pitty they are not completely transperant. Do they have some sort of freedom of information act here in Ireland?

Discodog · 16-04-2010 6:42pm

I believe that these are purely Pound figures & only include a few Pounds. Evidence suggest that many Greyhound owners simply won't pay for a vet to kill the dog. This was one of the reasons why the farmer in England was killing so many. I think that it was alleged that he was getting £10 per dog. Considering that he killed thousands it was a lucrative business.

Morganna · 18-04-2010 4:29pm

What about the greyhounds that are shot dead,dumped with their ears cut off .

scartman1 · 05-05-2010 5:44pm

Greyhounds are working animals and while attempts are made to rehome many retired greyhounds, some are PTS once they have outlived their racing usefullness or they may have been injured during racing.
Dogs in general and cats too are not treated very well, and those that are unwanted should in all kindness be put down rather that left to run as strays or kept in poor conditions. Feral Cats are a tremendous blight in many towns and cities yet generally get no comment.
Society needs to deal with this effectively and putting animals to sleep is often the kindest thing to do when the animals are unwanted.
Many of the previous posters have an animal rights agenda, which equates animals to the level of humans, advocating that they be treated the same. While this is a noble sentiment it may not be a practicable role for mankind to adopt. For one reason mankind is inherently designed to be selfish placing his own survival above that of animals, that is why he eats them, uses them to pull carts or to hunt other animals with them.
Animal rights should not be confused with animal welfare, where man is charged with a moral responsibility to treat animals humanely, which occasionally requires animals to be put to sleep. Animal rights occasionally impedes the practise of animal welfare.

Discodog · 06-05-2010 6:00pm

By working animal you mean a breed that man has chosen to do a particular task. If there is nothing wrong with unwanted Greyhounds being killed then why won't the IGB release the numbers ?.

By making the assumption that it is ok to put down any unwanted animal you just fuel the problem in that people have no qualms about breeding more. The animal becomes something that you can breed, use purely for entertainment & then kill. Animal rights has become the new term of abuse in this debate as is the assumption that anyone who supports animal rights must be wrong or worse.

How about the moral responsibility of not breeding dogs that no one wants ?.

tomybhoy · 06-05-2010 6:42pm

Morganna wrote: »

What about the greyhounds that are shot dead,dumped with their ears cut off .

How many greyhounds do you think that happens to?
It is extremely naive to read anything on the ICABS or other anti human sites without carrying out your own research.
The association of hungry scroungers are notorious for spreading blatant mistruths to further their agenda.

Discodog · 06-05-2010 9:10pm

tomybhoy wrote: »

How many greyhounds do you think that happens to?
It is extremely naive to read anything on the ICABS or other anti human sites without carrying out your own research.
The association of hungry scroungers are notorious for spreading blatant mistruths to further their agenda.

That is a remarkable comment !. Who are these anti-humans ?. Have the Foxes & Hares got together to form a terrorist group ?.

So you who support Hunting & Coursing don't have an agenda ?. Are you suggesting that the figures for the number of Greyhounds killed in Pounds are fiction ?. Maybe the Local Authority Pounds, who supply the figures, are part of the Anti- humans ?.

DePurpereWolf · 07-05-2010 7:55am

tomybhoy wrote: »

How many greyhounds do you think that happens to?
It is extremely naive to read anything on the ICABS or other anti human sites without carrying out your own research.
The association of hungry scroungers are notorious for spreading blatant mistruths to further their agenda.

Who knows?

We can argue here for ever and ever, but there is one organization that has the answer, the IGB. They know how many dogs are born because they all get a tattoo. Dogs that are born, have to die at one point. Substract from the number of pups the number of exports to US and UK (which have significantly dropped in recent years), pts and rehomed and you have a figure for greyhounds that are not accounted for.
It's not rocket science here.

Luckily we're not the first to investigate this. 14 000 greyhounds disposed of per year. (after exports) And only a 100 or so will be adopted. How many were pts by a vet? How many are unaccounted for?

http://www.ispca.ie/Greyhound-Breedhtml.aspx

tomybhoy · 07-05-2010 10:20am

Its the association of hungry scroungers, I know you know who they are.
They are being investigated at the moment as you well know, registered charities have come under the microscope recently and groups aligned with international terrorist groups are being looked at also.
I hope you keep members as informed when the Gardai come calling as when you have propaganda to spread.
Anyone who releases mink into the countryside to decimate the habitat of the hare has no right to use any platform to pollute the minds of reasonable law abiding individuals.

Now give me the figures of the number of greyhounds that are found with their ears cuts off each year and you may be able to prove to me that it is not another scam carried out by the hungry scroungers like the strangled hare.

scartman1 · 07-05-2010 12:29pm

Discodog wrote: »

By working animal you mean a breed that man has chosen to do a particular task. If there is nothing wrong with unwanted Greyhounds being killed then why won't the IGB release the numbers ?.

By making the assumption that it is ok to put down any unwanted animal you just fuel the problem in that people have no qualms about breeding more. The animal becomes something that you can breed, use purely for entertainment & then kill. Animal rights has become the new term of abuse in this debate as is the assumption that anyone who supports animal rights must be wrong or worse.

How about the moral responsibility of not breeding dogs that no one wants ?.

I believe probably if you do some maths like DePureWolf who has posted subsequently to your post then you may get a ball park result.
However anyone analysing this situation must consider how many cats and dogs are bred every year and how many are eventually put to sleep, for whatever reasons, ranging from sickness, old age, injury and so on.
Few enough dogs or for that matter domesticated animals die from natural causes the bulk of them are euthanased, and that should be considered by everybody when debating this issue.
As for the IGB, and I'm not speaking on their behalf, but i would think that it is next to near impossible to deliver figures for greyhounds put to sleep. It would involve considerable resources contacting all the vets and pounds and so on and unless it is 100% complete it would be inconclusive.
Why focus on Greyhounds specifically, why not spread your enquiries to the Gundog breeds, Lap dogs, sheepdogs. Surely all domesticated animals are bred for the use of humans in one shape or form and as I say, generally they are not afforded the right to die of natural causes as humans are.

EGAR · 07-05-2010 12:44pm

Scartman, your reasoning doesn't apply when you consider the vast amount of GH's bred for the simple reason of human amusement: *Great day out at the dogs* blabla. And the selfsame dogs are then discarded when they have outlived their usefullness. They are not working dogs, they are circus animals, bred solely for your amusement to see them race and bet on them.

Even I, as a Bull Breed rescue, have taken in GH's. From pounds, from syndicates, from owner/breeders/trainers. And the odd one was tied to my gates.

GH's are by far the most over produced breed of dogs in Ireland. And the one responsible for their registration etc namely the IGB is doing precious little to ensure their welfare in the aftermath when the circus is over.

DePurpereWolf · 07-05-2010 1:51pm

scartman1 wrote: »

I believe probably if you do some maths like DePureWolf who has posted subsequently to your post then you may get a ball park result.
However anyone analysing this situation must consider how many cats and dogs are bred every year and how many are eventually put to sleep, for whatever reasons, ranging from sickness, old age, injury and so on.

Let's get things straight here. When a greyhound is born the breeder makes sure that the pup will be able to race, otherwise it will not be registered (and end up in the bin). At around 18 months the breeder will start trying to sell the greyhound to trainers. If the dog is no good, it will be put to sleep. When the greyhound makes it to racing at age 2, it will race until it's 3, 4 years old. Then, they are disposed of. Bitches who had a good racing career get to spend a couple of years giving birth and are disposed of at age 8.

Most of the greyhounds that are rescued are 2 to 5 years old.

The average life expectancy of a Greyhound is 13.2 year.

What you are talking about is euthanasia of dogs that are terminally ill and are in too much pain.

Few enough dogs or for that matter domesticated animals die from natural causes the bulk of them are euthanased, and that should be considered by everybody when debating this issue.

euthanised because they are terminally ill. Please ask any pet owner if they will put their pet to sleep just because they feel like it.

But you make a good point. Is a greyhound a pet, or a farm animal in your eyes.

As for the IGB, and I'm not speaking on their behalf, but i would think that it is next to near impossible to deliver figures for greyhounds put to sleep. It would involve considerable resources contacting all the vets and pounds and so on and unless it is 100% complete it would be inconclusive.

I think you are underestimating the IGB and the greyhound industry here.
If you have a racing greyhound, you can go to http://www.greyhound-data.com/ and look up their family tree going back many many generations, well into the 19th century when racing started in the UK.
On top of that, if you feel like it, you can look up a dog and a bitch and 'virtually mate' them to check how much ancestry they have in common.
So, we know perfectly when where and how pups are born, but it would be too difficult to find out when where and how they die?

tomybhoy · 07-05-2010 2:03pm

Such hogwash, why then do I have greyhounds ranging in age from 16 months to 9 years of age?
This is just more anti propaganda, to generalize is to undermine any argument you might have.
All breeds of dogs are PTS for various reasons but the anti human brigade like to concentrate on greyhounds which are the best looked after breed of dogs IMO.
The posting of untruths is dispicable IMO.

EGAR · 07-05-2010 2:41pm

Tomybhoy, I have posted from experience, there is no untruth in what I wrote. Currently I have three Greyhounds residing at EGAR, all three ex-racers, two were subsequently bred from and are now 7 years old and of no use anymore to their ex-owner. The other bitch was raced but never bred from and as handed over to to me, she is 5.

scartman1 · 07-05-2010 2:49pm

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Let's get things straight here. When a greyhound is born the breeder makes sure that the pup will be able to race, otherwise it will not be registered (and end up in the bin). At around 18 months the breeder will start trying to sell the greyhound to trainers. If the dog is no good, it will be put to sleep. When the greyhound makes it to racing at age 2, it will race until it's 3, 4 years old. Then, they are disposed of. Bitches who had a good racing career get to spend a couple of years giving birth and are disposed of at age 8.

Most of the greyhounds that are rescued are 2 to 5 years old.

The average life expectancy of a Greyhound is 13.2 year.?

Being involved in greyhounds I shall advise that all pups are registered from the time they are whelped. The stud dog owner has to also register the mating. If no pups are produced from the mating then the keeper of the stud book is informed. Its all very well regulated and that is why the pedigrees of greyhounds can be traced back over a hundred years.

At twelve months or so the greyhounds are registered again for racing and the owner gives them a racing name which it will carry with him. All of these steps have to be processed before the dog is allowed to race.

While obviously some greyhounds don't reach the standard to make it to the very top, the industry operates on having graded races between greyhounds of equal ability and thus most of the greyhounds do get to show their paces and continue to race until they are 5 years old approx. Others get injured while being reared and schooled for the track and may be retired to the breeding paddocks, rehomed, or euthanised depending on the severity of the injury, breeding potential etc. It is wrong to generalise but it can be stated that greyhounds are a breed of dog that is extremely well looked after.

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

What you are talking about is euthanasia of dogs that are terminally ill and are in too much pain.

euthanised because they are terminally ill. Please ask any pet owner if they will put their pet to sleep just because they feel like it.

But you make a good point. Is a greyhound a pet, or a farm animal in your eyes.?

I take it that you agree that most dogs are euthanised eventually, but what you find unacceptable is that some greyhounds may be euthanised due to being placed in a position where they may be injured or of not prowess enough resulting in being euthanised. Considerable efforts are being made to rehome greyhounds and they are becoming an ever more popular pet. They are in fact a lovely even tempered dog and make excellent companions for people. As to your query relating to greyhounds being working animals or pets, I would frankly say that they can be both and usually are.

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I think you are underestimating the IGB and the greyhound industry here.
If you have a racing greyhound, you can go to http://www.greyhound-data.com/ and look up their family tree going back many many generations, well into the 19th century when racing started in the UK.
On top of that, if you feel like it, you can look up a dog and a bitch and 'virtually mate' them to check how much ancestry they have in common.
So, we know perfectly when where and how pups are born, but it would be too difficult to find out when where and how they die?

I presume what you are advocating is that we set up a death registrar process for greyhounds. Why not other animals for that matter? I presume this has not been done as it would be impracticable, potentially impossible and would be pointless if not done completely. It would in fact be a waste of resources, better spent elsewhere in promoting rehoming programs and other initiatives.
You have acknowledged that the Greyhound industry is capable of registering all greyhounds born and tracing back pedigrees for generations. By this means we know how many pups are born each year. Can the same be said for other breeds of dogs? In reality the greyhound industry/sport is better regulated than most other areas of animal welfare yet seems to be the target of much ill informed comment.

Morganna · 07-05-2010 3:04pm

on a recent walk back in feb i photographed a blue greyhound ,dead and dumped at the edge of a forest minus her ears ,which where cut off so she couldnt be identified ,

tomybhoy · 07-05-2010 3:06pm

EGAR wrote: »

Tomybhoy, I have posted from experience, there is no untruth in what I wrote. Currently I have three Greyhounds residing at EGAR, all three ex-racers, two were subsequently bred from and are now 7 years old and of no use anymore to their ex-owner. The other bitch was raced but never bred from and as handed over to to me, she is 5.

Why then do I have dogs living in my house with my wife and kids?
You state greyhounds are discarded when of no more use which is a mistruth as far as I am concerned.
I spend a lot of money each year ensuring my dogs get the best of everything they could possibly want and I either keep myself or rehome any greyhound I am responsible for.
You have 3 greyhounds out of 25,000 born each year and yet you generalize that all greyhounds are discarded when they are no longer wanted, I have three male retired greyhounds with me which cannot be used for breeding as they would not have been good enough on the track to breed with, why do I have these dogs when they are of no use to me other than as a great companions?

DePurpereWolf · 07-05-2010 4:10pm

Scartman, that is exactly my point. The greyhound industry has all the figures. But the general public is not allowed to see what happens to the dogs when they are of no use. Because it's bad for the image of the industry.

We all have different opinions of what is acceptable greyhound treatment. But I would like to have people make their own decisions about them. If you find it normal that most of the greyhounds will not celebrate their 5th birthday, for whatever reason, that's your good right.

I think your excuse that it's too much of an effort is nonsense. An example from the UK where they track cattle, all 10 million of them. They register their birth, movement and death. http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/cattle/id_info.htm
You would think that registering the ~50.000 greyhound in Ireland wouldn't be such a big deal then. This is not a UK thing, it's practiced all over Europe.

The only thing I'm asking if that the trainers would add one line of information to their greyhounds registration on how it died. That's it. If they can register them, they can unregister them too.

Lets not confuse things and start discussing other breeds. They deserve attention too. But the greyhound industry is much different than any other breed in Ireland. It will be hard to compare.

EGAR · 07-05-2010 5:17pm

tomybhoy wrote: »

Why then do I have dogs living in my house with my wife and kids?
You state greyhounds are discarded when of no more use which is a mistruth as far as I am concerned.
I spend a lot of money each year ensuring my dogs get the best of everything they could possibly want and I either keep myself or rehome any greyhound I am responsible for.
You have 3 greyhounds out of 25,000 born each year and yet you generalize that all greyhounds are discarded when they are no longer wanted, I have three male retired greyhounds with me which cannot be used for breeding as they would not have been good enough on the track to breed with, why do I have these dogs when they are of no use to me other than as a great companions?

Those are just three GHs here at PRESENT and I am a BULL BREED RESCUE, in case you missed my first post, I have taken in an rehomed alot more over the 13 years EGAR is up and running. I have to turn GHs away every week as I simply do not have the room to accomodate them all. GH rescues around the country are full to the gills with dogs and many UK and German (!!) rescues take Irish ex-racers as well. So no, not just the three here but thousands!

Where did I generalise? I said the IGB is not overly concerned with GHs who have served their purpose. They even proudly announce how they sent retired racers to ITALY, a country which has such a severe stray problem itself that a dog is dumped there every two minutes. Some responsibility!

I've done my homework on this as I am in the midst of it. So please don't patronise me.

scartman1 · 07-05-2010 6:03pm

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Scartman, that is exactly my point. The greyhound industry has all the figures. But the general public is not allowed to see what happens to the dogs when they are of no use. Because it's bad for the image of the industry.

We all have different opinions of what is acceptable greyhound treatment. But I would like to have people make their own decisions about them. If you find it normal that most of the greyhounds will not celebrate their 5th birthday, for whatever reason, that's your good right.

I think your excuse that it's too much of an effort is nonsense. An example from the UK where they track cattle, all 10 million of them. They register their birth, movement and death. http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/cattle/id_info.htm
You would think that registering the ~50.000 greyhound in Ireland wouldn't be such a big deal then. This is not a UK thing, it's practiced all over Europe.

The only thing I'm asking if that the trainers would add one line of information to their greyhounds registration on how it died. That's it. If they can register them, they can unregister them too.

Lets not confuse things and start discussing other breeds. They deserve attention too. But the greyhound industry is much different than any other breed in Ireland. It will be hard to compare.

Obviously, the Beef industry do this to ensure traceabilty in the meat industry. It is a requirement so that farmers can sell their beef. So it is incentivised. Whether it can be done with greyhound and other dog breeds depends I suppose if you can find a means of incentivising the registration of the time and nature of death.
The other thing to ensure is that it is certified by a competent independent person and it will obviously thus take resources to do it. I never said it was impossible, rather I said it was impracticable and almost impossible.
The focus should not to malign the Greyhound industry as they don't have these figures at hand, as many animal registration groups don't have the relevent information, but rather focus efforts in rehoming greyhounds.
Further it is not correct to say that all greyhounds are discarded at the end of their racing careers, as this is sensationalising the argument for dramatic effect.
Personally, I have 4 greyhounds, 2 of which are saplings and hopefully will be racing this autumn, their Dam who is 5 years old, and the Grand Dam who is 9 years old now. There are many like me who just keep a few for the sake of a hobby and we do look after them as we are very fond of them.

In general I agree with you in that animals have to be treated better, but I think having a focus on the Greyhound industry which is highly regulated and with the greyhounds receiving the best of vetinary care during their racing careers, means other areas are overlooked. Many strays that are left loose from houses are starving, recieve little or no vetinary treatment from when they are born until they die are a much bigger issue overall.

tomybhoy · 07-05-2010 6:15pm

EGAR wrote: »

Those are just three GHs here at PRESENT and I am a BULL BREED RESCUE, in case you missed my first post, I have taken in an rehomed alot more over the 13 years EGAR is up and running. I have to turn GHs away every week as I simply do not have the room to accomodate them all. GH rescues around the country are full to the gills with dogs and many UK and German (!!) rescues take Irish ex-racers as well. So no, not just the three here but thousands!

Where did I generalise? I said the IGB is not overly concerned with GHs who have served their purpose. They even proudly announce how they sent retired racers to ITALY, a country which has such a severe stray problem itself that a dog is dumped there every two minutes. Some responsibility!

I've done my homework on this as I am in the midst of it. So please don't patronise me.

None of the 3 dogs you have on that photo look big enough to be coursers Egar.

Morganna · 07-05-2010 6:46pm

*Mod edit* please note the photo is of a dead greyhound so some people may find it upsetting

Morganna wrote: »

on a recent walk back in feb i photographed a blue greyhound ,dead and dumped at the edge of a forest minus her ears ,which where cut off so she couldnt be identified ,

Here is the picture

tomybhoy · 07-05-2010 8:28pm

Morganna wrote: »

*Mod edit* please note the photo is of a dead greyhound so some people may find it upsetting

Here is the picture

Did you report it to the ICC?

EGAR · 07-05-2010 9:17pm

tomybhoy wrote: »

None of the 3 dogs you have on that photo look big enough to be coursers Egar.

Oh great, now I am a liar?

I am bowing out of this as you seem along the path of ramming your opinion down my throat

and I am not going down that road, life is too short.

DePurpereWolf · 07-05-2010 9:47pm

Scartman, I see no problem in people who race greyhounds as a hobby. But you have to agree with me that there are a lot of cowboys who think they can make a quick buck.

I have two rescued greyhounds myself, one bitch that was to be put to sleep at age 22 months and a dog that raced until it was 3. (25 races, 5 times 2nd, never won)
I have fostered an 18 month old bitch that was taken from under the needle.
I am about to foster a 2 year old bitch this June that is 'not fast enough'.
When we received the dog (the one that raced), it had half the hair it has now, was skin on bones and had scars from wearing a muzzle all day.

I have worked as a volunteer for a greyhound rescue organisation, transporting hounds to the UK. I have transported around 40. They were all saved at the vets (before pts) average age would be somewhere between 3 and 4. Most of them were in good condition, all of them have found a nice home now.

scartman1 wrote: »

In general I agree with you in that animals have to be treated better, but I think having a focus on the Greyhound industry which is highly regulated and with the greyhounds receiving the best of vetinary care during their racing careers, means other areas are overlooked. Many strays that are left loose from houses are starving, receive little or no veterinary treatment from when they are born until they die are a much bigger issue overall.

Yes they do get good care, as long as they race.
But that's not the point. We need legislation for all dogs. The thing is that the greyhound industry has the biggest lobby group here and wants exemptions for greyhounds. If the whole puppy farming bill was about king charles' and labradoodles, it would already have passed. But because greyhounds are also dogs, it has come across much resistance.

tomybhoy · 07-05-2010 10:15pm

EGAR wrote: »

Oh great, now I am a liar?

I am bowing out of this as you seem along the path of ramming your opinion down my throat and I am not going down that road, life is too short.

How do you know they are coursers, I have not called you a liar, I have given my opinion that the dogs do not look big enough to be coursers.

Discodog · 08-05-2010 9:56am

DePurpereWolf makes some very valid points. The IGB have the data but choose not to release it because it is bad PR. For example when Snip Nua, Dara O'Briain's dog that featured on the BBC Three Men go to Ireland, died at the track the death was not publicly recorded. Sometimes the only way of getting information from the IGB is via a FOI application.

The IGB receive €12 million of our money & we are entitled to see the consequences of that money. Some of it is being spent on a series of comedy radio adverts that promote the idea of racing as a great night out. I think that far fewer people would attend race meets if they knew the truth & the IGB know this which is why they hide it.

scartman1 · 10-05-2010 12:49am

Morganna wrote: »

*Mod edit* please note the photo is of a dead greyhound so some people may find it upsetting

Here is the picture

Morgana
the IGB can assist in tracing thro DNA the parentage of the greyhound in question. Can you report it?
This, while totally unacceptable, would be an isolated incident. The perpretrators of this shame don't deserve to have control of a dog of any breed.

scartman1 · 10-05-2010 1:14am

Discodog wrote: »

DePurpereWolf makes some very valid points. The IGB have the data but choose not to release it because it is bad PR. For example when Snip Nua, Dara O'Briain's dog that featured on the BBC Three Men go to Ireland, died at the track the death was not publicly recorded. Sometimes the only way of getting information from the IGB is via a FOI application.

The IGB receive €12 million of our money & we are entitled to see the consequences of that money. Some of it is being spent on a series of comedy radio adverts that promote the idea of racing as a great night out. I think that far fewer people would attend race meets if they knew the truth & the IGB know this which is why they hide it.

Discodog, nobody is holding back any information from anybody and the IGB have certainly nothing to hide, it is the IGB, a state body for regulating the Greyhound sport, it is not as you seem determined to protray, the KGB.

The fact is that the IGB have no facility for recording how greyhounds have died, it would be a highly complicated proceedure to do and would cost a lot for little or no benefit. Dara O Brien's dog unfortunately died it seems at the track in a freak accident, there was no cover up, and you seem to dwell in this place where you are constantly evoking innuedo and conspiracy. It is wrong to mislead the other readers with this form of posting.

As regards how the IGB advertise the sport of Greyhound Racing I see nothing wrong with this.
You certainly seem to be dead set against Greyhound Racing and are constantly propogandising against it, which is very unfair. If you are genuinely interested in the welfare of greyhounds and other animals I think you should start to work with these organisations and not be constantly alienating them.
I would like if you could answer this truthfully. Are you against the very fact that Greyhounds are run against each other for the pleasure and entertainment of their owners and public ?

DePurpereWolf · 10-05-2010 2:44pm

scartman1 wrote: »

Discodog, nobody is holding back any information from anybody and the IGB have certainly nothing to hide, it is the IGB, a state body for regulating the Greyhound sport, it is not as you seem determined to protray, the KGB.

Can you please point out on the IGB website any statistical information regarding greyhounds born, exported, raced, etc. etc.

While we're at it, could you point out in the greyhound racing act of 1958 and subsequent changes the mention of 'greyhound welfare'. (I've tried, it's a jungle)

The fact is that the IGB have no facility for recording how greyhounds have died, it would be a highly complicated proceedure to do and would cost a lot for little or no benefit.

This is not a fact, this is your opinion, with which I do not agree.

The Frontline Animal Rights&Rural Ireland debate last night

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