The Frontline Animal Rights&Rural Ireland debate last night

lubie76

I watched this last night and felt there was some really strong arguments put forward about anti hunting, etc. The Hunting Ward Union and RISE came across as really backward old men with too much time and moneyon their hands. They had the cheek to say they were representing the rural community of Ireland. I was delighted to hear the majority of farmers seemed also against the hunts.

I felt the puppy farming legislation benefits weren't highlighted as much as they should have and maybe some shocking footage or stats would have got the point across better. It turned into an argument about breeders not being able to afford the registration fee rather than the cruelty to animals. Somone made an excellent point that breeders should be delighted that the restrictions are coming in as it would be of benefit to them if they were a genuine breeder by weeding out the people just breeding masses of unhealthy puppies.

star-pants

Incase people didn't see it - here's the blog entry on the RTÉ website describing what the show was to be about:

The Greens are often pushed by journalists to say what concrete achievements they can boast after nearly three years in office. Well if all goes according to plan one small but highly emotive change is about to take place with the Wildlife Amendement bill 2010 which will ban stag hunting in Ireland. In practice that means banning the hunt of the Meath-based Ward Union - the only stag hunt in Ireland and long a sore point with animal rights and anti-blood sport groups. John Gormley is also about to introduce tighter regulations on dog breeding which many of those involved with coursing and even greyhound racing see as an attack on their sports.

Of course this all forms part of a highly complex and deeply felt division between, on the one hand, environmentalists and animal welfare groups, and on the other many rural dwellers represented by groups like RISE (Rural Ireland Says Enough), who believe that the Greens in particular are out to destroy their way of life. They feel these new measures will lead on to bans on fox hunting on coursing and attacks on fishing and even horse racing. Consequently, some rural FF backbenchers are privately very unhappy at having to support John Gormley's measures.

At the same time many animal welfare groups say the measures don't go far enough - they're particularly disappointed that there are no specific measures to ban hare coursing or fox hunting.

On tonight's The Frontline we'll debate animal rights and rural Ireland. We'll be joined by Mairead McGuinness MEP (who opposes John Gormley's measures) by Niall O Brollachain of the Greens who believes they are reasonable and necessary, and by a wide range of interested individuals and groups on both sides of the argument.

CreedonsDogDayc

video link here of the show http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1069191

Orla K

To be honest that debate was awful in the sense that it was very biased, even Pat Kenny was biased, who I would have thought would have stayed neutral considering he was the chair.

I really watched it to find out about the actual bill and for me their wasn't enough actual information. I know it was more a points of view type of thing but I just thought I'd find out more about the bill.


If anyone wants to read it you can find it to download here

I think I'll spend tomorrow reading it (it'll probably take me a week to read it)

Discodog

Whilst the DBEB is important it is also a precursor the the Animal Welfare Bill that is only a few months away. The DBEB did not get specific coverage because the program wanted to focus on the complaints from the Greyhound & Hunt lobby who are seeking exclusions.

The DBEB will take anyone 20 mins to read. It is very simple & only effects people who have a six or more breeding bitches. The main complaint from animal lovers is that it does not define standards such as amount of space, food exercise etc. These will be addressed by the AWB.

As with any legislation there are some compromises but it is the first proper welfare legislation since 1911.

cucoigcrice

I just watched the debate if you want to call it that!!! I feel that it was very one sided and i feel that the people whom spoke on the pro hunting side were in fact the wrong people for the job.
My feelings lie as follows: i dont mind people hunting i.e. fishing, shooting, coursing but i dont agree with digging of animals while in hiding. I am a big lover of greyhounds and i see quite alot of them and 9 out of 10 are keep in good conditions and are given all the necessary requirement, food, water, warmth and shelter and quite often love. It annoyed me to see that one women said that she see greyhound with there ears cut off and in river etc, i have only seen this once and i know that greyhound owners and breeders would also be annoyed at that. People that do that to their greyhounds are not true greyhound men and women. Alot of greyhounds are now rehomed and owners and trainor pay to get them rehomed and even sent to italy where pictures are sent back from their new homes to the old trainor etc. Geyhoung enjoy track racing and coursing and not one hare was harmed in this years coursing meetings, they are also inspected by vets.
With regards to puppy farming i dont agree with however i am sure there are good breeders out there whom abide by the rules but it is unfortunate to tar them all with the same brush!!

johngalway

It was rubbish as a debate. The anti hunting lot just shouted down anything they didn't agree with. Which was most things.

One point not mentioned too much was raised about an anti hunting guy who marched with an iffy crowd from the UK who wear balaclavas and advocate violence and criminal damage to further their aims.

Discodog

cucoigcrice wrote: »

i see quite alot of them and 9 out of 10 are keep in good conditions and are given all the necessary requirement, food, water, warmth and shelter and quite often love.

and not one hare was harmed in this years coursing meetings, they are also inspected by vets.

So who do you think is responsible for the 10,000 dead Greyhounds found on a farm in England ?. Or the thousands that turn up in Irish rescues in an appalling state ?. Or my own Greyhound who I found battered, bruised & starving on the streets of Galway.

As a "Greyhound man" please tell us what happens to all the puppies that are born every year that are not good enough to race ?. The "Industry" admits that thousands are born every year but only a small percentage become good racers so where are the rest ?. We should be seeing them everywhere as common pets but we don't, so where are they ?.

You may believe no Hares are harmed. There are several videos of youtube that show the opposite including a very recent one. If I took you & got a couple of muzzled Tigers to chase you (with boots on their paws !) you might survive but what would it feel like ?. The Hare's nervous system works just like yours.

cucoigcrice

Discodog wrote: »

So who do you think is responsible for the 10,000 dead Greyhounds found on a farm in England ?. Or the thousands that turn up in Irish rescues in an appalling state ?. Or my own Greyhound who I found battered, bruised & starving on the streets of Galway.

As a "Greyhound man" please tell us what happens to all the puppies that are born every year that are not good enough to race ?. The "Industry" admits that thousands are born every year but only a small percentage become good racers so where are the rest ?. We should be seeing them everywhere as common pets but we don't, so where are they ?.

You may believe no Hares are harmed. There are several videos of youtube that show the opposite including a very recent one. If I took you & got a couple of muzzled Tigers to chase you (with boots on their paws !) you might survive but what would it feel like ?. The Hare's nervous system works just like yours.

Ok Discodog,
I thoughout that the debate was actually about Ireland i didnt think England was taken into account!!! Am I right?? May I ask what you define as appalling state, and no i am not being smart.

As my last post said I did not say all greyhound owners/trainer are bad, but like anywhere or anything you dont get 1 or 2 that dont do it by the book, like puppy farmers!

And as for your "greyhound man" (i included women too, not being sexest) that were in brackets, there are puupies born every year. The one's that i see are all vaccinated, wormed, flea treatments given etc from pups on. If they are not racers quite alot i have seen are actually rehomed in italy, sweden and some are left with the rehoming shelters. In fairness there are some people that can get a greyhound and the dog falls into the wrong hands ( i am not refairing to greyhound men/women ), this is when they are treated badly and home jobs are done, i.e. stitching etc. The reason we dont see them as common companion animals is becasue the public have a bad proception of this breed, in my opinion and through seeing them in family homes etc they are relaxed, couch potatoes whom love to sleep alot.

With regards to hares being injured, i have looked up you tube and seen alot of video many of which are not recent, i did see one recent one of the hare in a pen, however it didnt show where the pen was!!! Was it at a couring meeting at all, and once again i am not being smart, its just that it could have been filmed else where.

Many people will say that this a tradition, (not me saying that) and that it has been going on for centuries!!!

Discodog

cucoigcrice wrote: »

Ok Discodog,
I thoughout that the debate was actually about Ireland i didnt think England was taken into account!!! Am I right?? May I ask what you define as appalling state, and no i am not being smart.


And as for your "greyhound man" (i included women too, not being sexest) that were in brackets, there are puupies born every year. The one's that i see are all vaccinated, wormed, flea treatments given etc from pups on. If they are not racers quite alot i have seen are actually rehomed in italy, sweden and some are left with the rehoming shelters. In fairness there are some people that can get a greyhound and the dog falls into the wrong hands ( i am not refairing to greyhound men/women ), this is when they are treated badly and home jobs are done, i.e. stitching etc. The reason we dont see them as common companion animals is becasue the public have a bad proception of this breed, in my opinion and through seeing them in family homes etc they are relaxed, couch potatoes whom love to sleep alot.

With regards to hares being injured, i have looked up you tube and seen alot of video many of which are not recent, i did see one recent one of the hare in a pen, however it didnt show where the pen was!!! Was it at a couring meeting at all, and once again i am not being smart, its just that it could have been filmed else where.

Many people will say that this a tradition, (not me saying that) and that it has been going on for centuries!!!

The majority of the dead dogs found in Yorkshire were Irish dogs according to the man who killed them. A high percentage of Irish dogs race & die in England. Two were killed recently during a meet at Belle Vue Manchester just as Snip Nua, Dara O'Briain's dog was killed at Harold's Cross.

Just google any Irish Greyhound rescue if you want an explanation of "an appalling state". It can mean covered in maggot infested sores, starved, or in the case of my girl lacerated from barbed wire & rusty corrugated iron.

The RSPCA estimate that 20 Greyhounds a day just disappear. If you take the breeding figures & then subtract the rehoming figures there is a huge discrepancy. My Greyhound was never registered (tattooed). There are thousands like her & they are ignored by the industry.

A tiny percentage get re-homed abroad. The only thing that you are correct about is the public perception of Greyhounds but all the public see is them muzzled & chasing other animals. The bad PR is not the fault of the Greyhound.

As for dying Hares this was filmed at this years coursing final in Clonmel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTi2k6nfJSo&feature=email

cucoigcrice

Discodog wrote: »

The majority of the dead dogs found in Yorkshire were Irish dogs according to the man who killed them. A high percentage of Irish dogs race & die in England. Two were killed recently during a meet at Belle Vue Manchester just as Snip Nua, Dara O'Briain's dog was killed at Harold's Cross.

Just google any Irish Greyhound rescue if you want an explanation of "an appalling state". It can mean covered in maggot infested sores, starved, or in the case of my girl lacerated from barbed wire & rusty corrugated iron.

The RSPCA estimate that 20 Greyhounds a day just disappear. If you take the breeding figures & then subtract the rehoming figures there is a huge discrepancy. My Greyhound was never registered (tattooed). There are thousands like her & they are ignored by the industry.

A tiny percentage get re-homed abroad. The only thing that you are correct about is the public perception of Greyhounds but all the public see is them muzzled & chasing other animals. The bad PR is not the fault of the Greyhound.

As for dying Hares this was filmed at this years coursing final in Clonmel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTi2k6nfJSo&feature=email

Yes Irish dogs, probably breed over her and sold to England!!!
with regards to "Snip Nua" she was actually euthanised due to a broken leg at Mullingar track sustained in a race. I does not unfortunaetly state where the break actualy was i.e what bone so it is hard to judge. I know it is a shame that the dogs leg was not amputated etc but its just like any other pet dog owner if they dont want to get it repaired they dont have too. I'm am not saying i agree with this!!

Are you sure your dog is full greyhound as all greyhounds are ear marked as young pups. I'm just saying that it may have been from a lurcher as they sometimes breed with greyhounds, but that is a differnet topic all together.

The way alot of greyhound owners think and say now is that the better the dog is looked after the better it will run. I agree with this statement, i feel that if a dog is not fed,watered,given warmth and a clean please to live it will not have an interest in running. I know a women whom rehomed a greyhound from another greyhound man. This women moved the dog into her living room and treas him like a baby and he did win races for her. Since then he has recieved and injury and can no longer race however he is still siting comfy infront of the fire!!!

The way i think of these things with regards to euthanising any animal is that if it is done professionally like many are i dont seem to feel as bad. Around my area several years ago there were dogs being hung from tree's (not greyhounds), i feel that if they wanted the dog to be put to sleep why didnt they bring it to the vets and have it done correctly.

With regards to the greyhounds being rehomed abroad i can count a large number i know of that have been rehomed in both sweden and italy and the numbers are growing.

BryanL

Discodog wrote: »

As for dying Hares this was filmed at this years coursing final in Clonmel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTi2k6nfJSo&feature=email

That video is now part of a criminal investigation by the Gardai as it was staged.

As this footage shows!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t65K6OhwPI

Discodog

It shows nothing & the whole video will show much more. At 0:58 seconds the Hare takes a severe impact - it isn't just teeth that cause damage. A 25 kg Greyhound running flat out packs a big punch. When playing my girl has taken my legs away with ease.

This video has now been seen by wildlife experts including a leading European wildlife veterinary teaching hospital. Their view is that the Hare either sustained a spinal injury or a trauma to a major blood vessel possible in the brain.

No one that I have shown the video to can see any evidence of the supposed wire.

But this does raise an interesting issue in that the ICC say that the video must be fake as filming is not allowed & this begs the question why not ?. What are they trying to hide ?. If everything was above board surely one would welcome filming ?.

Discodog

cucoigcrice wrote: »

Yes Irish dogs, probably breed over her and sold to England!!!
with regards to "Snip Nua" she was actually euthanised due to a broken leg at Mullingar track sustained in a race. I does not unfortunaetly state where the break actualy was i.e what bone so it is hard to judge. I know it is a shame that the dogs leg was not amputated etc but its just like any other pet dog owner if they dont want to get it repaired they dont have too. I'm am not saying i agree with this!!

Are you sure your dog is full greyhound as all greyhounds are ear marked as young pups. I'm just saying that it may have been from a lurcher as they sometimes breed with greyhounds, but that is a differnet topic all together.

The way alot of greyhound owners think and say now is that the better the dog is looked after the better it will run. I agree with this statement, i feel that if a dog is not fed,watered,given warmth and a clean please to live it will not have an interest in running. I know a women whom rehomed a greyhound from another greyhound man. This women moved the dog into her living room and treas him like a baby and he did win races for her. Since then he has recieved and injury and can no longer race however he is still siting comfy infront of the fire!!!

The way i think of these things with regards to euthanising any animal is that if it is done professionally like many are i dont seem to feel as bad. Around my area several years ago there were dogs being hung from tree's (not greyhounds), i feel that if they wanted the dog to be put to sleep why didnt they bring it to the vets and have it done correctly.

With regards to the greyhounds being rehomed abroad i can count a large number i know of that have been rehomed in both sweden and italy and the numbers are growing.

Snip was just one of many dogs that die whilst racing but we do not know the total number because it is kept secret. You cannot tell me how many dogs are rehomed because that is also a secret. So how about the number of puppies bred or the number put down ?. Yes more secrets.

Now I always thought that one would want to spread good news & if the industry is as good as you say then why keep the numbers secret ?. Even the minutes of the welfare meetings are secret. All this secrecy from an industry that gets €12 million of our money. Surely we are entitled to see how our money is spent.

Do you think that it is acceptable to ship the industry's problems overseas ?. You say that the Irish will not accept Greyhounds as pets so why breed dogs that you cannot rehome here ?.

You say that some owners are OK because they pamper their Greyhounds yet they are happy for their beloved dogs to run a high risk of injury.

One thing that is not a secret is that Greyhound owners give a paltry 2% of their prize fund to Greyhound welfare which shows how much they value the dogs.

cucoigcrice

BryanL wrote: »

That video is now part of a criminal investigation by the Gardai as it was staged.

As this footage shows!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t65K6OhwPI

I seen this footage today and i am completely disgusted that people whom supposably care for animals rights can injury a hare!!! I will never support the anti's no matter what as they are hipocrites. My anger increases :mad::mad::mad: every time i watch this disgusting act of cruetly-- by anti's of all people. I hope the garda investigation brings these thugs, whom call themsevels animal lovers, to justice!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

gentleman jim

BryanL wrote: »

That video is now part of a criminal investigation by the Gardai as it was staged.

As this footage shows!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t65K6OhwPI

i have just read this post and watched all footages, i am appauled at the anticks of the anti's. How low will they stoop!! obviously very low if these so called animal lovers try and take a hares life!!!:mad::mad:
How far back do these lies and deception actually fall!!
I feel another frontline debate should now be held!!
I hope all that was involved in this cruel act is charged and given a hefty sentence!!

convert

Discodog wrote: »

But this does raise an interesting issue in that the ICC say that the video must be fake as filming is not allowed & this begs the question why not ?. What are they trying to hide ?. If everything was above board surely one would welcome filming ?.

When one goes to a concert or gig, or to the cinema, recording of any kind is prohibited. Does this mean that the performers are trying to hid something or that something is not above board?

cucoigcrice

So discodog you mean to say you didint see the wire attached around the hares neck!!! I believe you DIDNT WANT to see the wire!!! Many people that have seen this video have noticed the wire obviously not you though!!

Dont have the cheek to talk about secrets, when the anti's have clearly tried to murder a hare and frame it on coursing people!!!

Once again i will not tolerate you saying that snip nua was killed while racing as she was not, she was humanely euthanised after she fractured a bone. She was not killed while racing!!

Oh right so a spinal or brain injury can now be diagnosed by a video?? So the wire around the neck of the hare is not causing the animal distress or scrambling to break free!!

The reason for not allowing people into video I imagine is because they may interfer with the hares or dogs i.e. drug them or injury them, like the anti's have done.

There is no secrets of the number of puppies that are born each year!!

Sorry greyhounds incase you havent noticed are called hounds for a reason to hunt!! that is why they run after an artifical hare on the track greyhounds enjoy this or they wouldnt run!!

We dont ship our problems oversea's there are people in these countries that i metioned earlier that are waiting for greyhounds to be sent over for rehoming cause they find that breed fantastic pets. They want them, its not that we are just trying to get rid of rubbish.

Discodog

cucoigcrice wrote: »

I seen this footage today and i am completely disgusted that people whom supposably care for animals rights can injury a hare!!! I will never support the anti's no matter what as they are hipocrites. My anger increases :mad::mad::mad: every time i watch this disgusting act of cruetly-- by anti's of all people. I hope the garda investigation brings these thugs, whom call themsevels animal lovers, to justice!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

You must be watching a different video to me. The ICC originally said that the video could not be real because of the strict security that guards the hare pens. That is why you have to film in secret !. Now they are suggesting that someone smuggled in a sedated hare, put in the guarded enclosure & then waited for it to recover. Having managed all that without being spotted they then had one guy pull an invisible string whilst the other filmed & the security guards still didn't notice. Even more amazingly they pulled hard enough to strangle the hare without it being dragged along the ground.

Or could it be that the hare was genuinely injured, which would be in breach of the coursing license, so they say the video is a fake ?.

Now does one believe the people who care enough to film animal abuse or the people who believe that catching a wild hare, imprisoning it & letting hounds chase it is sport ?.

Discodog

Just for clarification the full 40 minute Hare video is with the Garda Commissioner who has been asked to investigate whether the death of the Hare is a breach of the laws that relate to coursing.

So it would appear that both sides are claiming illegality. There is a full statement relating to the video here:

http://www.huntsabsireland.org

Discodog

convert wrote: »

When one goes to a concert or gig, or to the cinema, recording of any kind is prohibited. Does this mean that the performers are trying to hid something or that something is not above board?

That is because it it their copyright & often they will want to make their own video. More importantly they do not want people making bootleg videos which is not likely at a coursing event. Musicians don't get €12 million of our money. We have a right to see how our money is spent.

Gentleman jim I suggest you look at the link above. You will see that the Gardai are investigating both sides of this, not just your side.

Cucoigcrice: I can see a dark area on the neck. A wire would be virtually invisible. That area could be just shadow. But you are ignoring every point that I have made regarding the feasibility of faking a video. Whilst the Hares are in that enclosure they are guarded by the ICC because they are totally responsible for their welfare.

Where is the dead Hare & the wire ?. Were these "anti's" so talented that they managed to get the hare into the enclosure, then they strangled it & then managed to smuggle it back out again. There comes a point where the whole story borders on the impossible.

It was filmed by two Swedish students with a large video camera & from a public area, so some distance from the enclosure. Read their own story. It is on the link.

Snip nua suffered an horrific injury during a race. This video shows the whole thing. It's from the IGB so please do not say that this one is fake:

http://www.greytexploitations.com/resources-and-reports/did-the-bbc-callously-dismiss-the-deaths-of-two-greyhounds

As it is no secret please tell us how many Greyhound puppies are born every year & the source of your figures ?. It is our money & we are entitled to transparency. How about the other figures that I questioned ?. Can you direct me to where I will find the numbers ?.

Surely if the hares were constantly videoed it would prevent anyone interfering with them.

I suggest that you contact the overseas rescue's. The idea that these rescue's want our dogs & that we are doing them a favour is ridiculous. They help because they care.

ppink

Are greyhounds not born to run?

when i leave my dogs out the first thing they do is run, they love the chase and love running against each other to catch things. they are not greyhounds but racing is their top form of play.

so with regards to greyhound racing.....do they not enjoy it?

BryanL

Discodog wrote: »

No one that I have shown the video to can see any evidence of the supposed wire.

But the hunt sab site you linked states "A snare or restraining device appears to be attached to the hare"


But you can't see it? funny that. The Hare enclosure is not in public view or near a footpath like it says in your link.

The other big issue for me is the Hare looks dead at the start of the video, but appears to become more alive as the video goes on!

Graces7

Discodog; many , many, many thanks for the sheer integrity and expertise of your posts on this.

A lone voice indeed, but the one to listen to against all the complacency and hostility here.

If there is ever any doubt re abuse to animals, then it must be addressed.

We know the greyhound scene in Ireland and that all you say is true.

Please persevere and if there is any way we can help, we are here for you.

Blessings and thanks

Discodog

ppink wrote: »

Are greyhounds not born to run?

so with regards to greyhound racing.....do they not enjoy it?

Of course they enjoy running but do they enjoy everything else that goes with it like a broken leg & being put down ?. Or being discarded when they are no longer able to run or if they can't run fast enough ?.

Bryan: I have stated that I consider the video on it's own to be inconclusive. Whatever the circumstances it appears as if a Hare died or was killed in an official ICC enclosure during a coursing event. Coursing is allowed under rules which include protecting the life of the Hare. If, as is alleged, someone broke into the compound then it was not being supervised as the rules dictate.

Also if the correct supervision was in place the stewards/security would of seen the dead/dying Hare but clearly no one did. If the enclosure was being monitored we would have the dead Hare for autopsy. If the Hare collided with the pole as the video suggests could of happened it may well of been knocked out & then recovered consciousness.

Grace: Thank you for your kind words. All I seek is total openness so that people can make informed choices about whether they support an industry or not. People have a right to know how many dogs die at tracks & how many die elsewhere.

star-pants

Graces7 wrote: »

A lone voice indeed, but the one to listen to against all the complacency and hostility here.

Graces7 this isn't the first of your posts that have been reported, people may not agree with you but they're entitled to their opinion, doesn't mean they're being necessarily hostile

ppink

Discodog wrote: »

Of course they enjoy running but do they enjoy everything else that goes with it like a broken leg & being put down ?. Or being discarded when they are no longer able to run or if they can't run fast enough ?.



Grace: Thank you for your kind words. All I seek is total openness so that people can make informed choices about whether they support an industry or not. People have a right to know how many dogs die at tracks & how many die elsewhere.

I am not pro or anti greyhound racing, hence the reason for my question. How many dogs break their legs or are dumped/pts due to being past it or not able for it?

If what happens to them when not racing is the issue could regulation not deal with htis as opposed to an outright ban on racing?

DePurpereWolf

That would be a good question for the IGB. I suggest you give them a call.
All racing greyhounds are registered in Ireland, so they should have this on file.

ppink

IF folks who are anit-racing or anti coursing cant answer this question then it is a very difficult argument for them to make as surely it is the absolute basis for them wanting to stop the sport?

Discodog

ppink wrote: »

I am not pro or anti greyhound racing, hence the reason for my question. How many dogs break their legs or are dumped/pts due to being past it or not able for it?

If what happens to them when not racing is the issue could regulation not deal with htis as opposed to an outright ban on racing?

The whole point is that the IGB have data but will not make it public. There are literally thousands of "disappeared" Greyhounds, that is the difference between the numbers that are born & the numbers that are rehomed.

This is "self regulated" by the IGB. All Greyhounds that race are registered however many never get registered. When a litter of puppies is bred few go on to be successful racers. Then there are all the Greyhounds that are raced on unlicensed "flapping" tracks.

I & many others have contacted & lobbied the IGB to try & get accurate figures. When dogs are killed in a Pound their death is recorded & those figures are made public but Greyhound deaths are not.

I have been told that the dogs that die at the track are not recorded. When a dog suffers a major injury as with Snip Nua it is covered in a sheet & removed from view - after all it is bad PR. Even the BBC did not tell viewers that Snip Nua was dead before the TV program about her was aired.

Many people see a night at the dogs as good entertainment. They do not see all the consequences. I believe that many people would not go to race nights if they knew the true fate of many of the dogs. I suspect that the IGB agree with me which is why the information is kept secret.

We give the IGB €12 million of public money & yet we are not allowed to see the figures.

Discodog

Interesting article here that highlights the problem with accounting for the number of Greyhounds that get killed every year. To summarise the following figures only apply to Local Authority Dog Pounds. One might wonder how or why these supposedly well cared for Greyhounds end up in a Pound:

"Greyhounds accounted for 107 of the 500 dogs put down in south Tipperary; in Louth, 40 greyhounds out of 132 dogs were put down, and in Galway city, 74 greyhounds of of 191 dogs were put down. In Clare, 273 greyhounds were put down and 259 were put down in Kerry."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0412/1224268137763.html

DePurpereWolf

Are these figures only from the pounds?

Many breeders and trainers opt to terminate their dogs if they are not succesul straight at the vet. Now the vet will try and get the hounds to a pound or other rescue organisation. But sometimes those are full, or sometimes the breeder will insist on the dogs to be put down.

-- About IGB, it's a pitty they are not completely transperant. Do they have some sort of freedom of information act here in Ireland?

Discodog

I believe that these are purely Pound figures & only include a few Pounds. Evidence suggest that many Greyhound owners simply won't pay for a vet to kill the dog. This was one of the reasons why the farmer in England was killing so many. I think that it was alleged that he was getting £10 per dog. Considering that he killed thousands it was a lucrative business.

Morganna

What about the greyhounds that are shot dead,dumped with their ears cut off .

scartman1

Greyhounds are working animals and while attempts are made to rehome many retired greyhounds, some are PTS once they have outlived their racing usefullness or they may have been injured during racing.
Dogs in general and cats too are not treated very well, and those that are unwanted should in all kindness be put down rather that left to run as strays or kept in poor conditions. Feral Cats are a tremendous blight in many towns and cities yet generally get no comment.
Society needs to deal with this effectively and putting animals to sleep is often the kindest thing to do when the animals are unwanted.
Many of the previous posters have an animal rights agenda, which equates animals to the level of humans, advocating that they be treated the same. While this is a noble sentiment it may not be a practicable role for mankind to adopt. For one reason mankind is inherently designed to be selfish placing his own survival above that of animals, that is why he eats them, uses them to pull carts or to hunt other animals with them.
Animal rights should not be confused with animal welfare, where man is charged with a moral responsibility to treat animals humanely, which occasionally requires animals to be put to sleep. Animal rights occasionally impedes the practise of animal welfare.

Discodog

By working animal you mean a breed that man has chosen to do a particular task. If there is nothing wrong with unwanted Greyhounds being killed then why won't the IGB release the numbers ?.

By making the assumption that it is ok to put down any unwanted animal you just fuel the problem in that people have no qualms about breeding more. The animal becomes something that you can breed, use purely for entertainment & then kill. Animal rights has become the new term of abuse in this debate as is the assumption that anyone who supports animal rights must be wrong or worse.

How about the moral responsibility of not breeding dogs that no one wants ?.

tomybhoy

Morganna wrote: »

What about the greyhounds that are shot dead,dumped with their ears cut off .

How many greyhounds do you think that happens to?
It is extremely naive to read anything on the ICABS or other anti human sites without carrying out your own research.
The association of hungry scroungers are notorious for spreading blatant mistruths to further their agenda.

Discodog

tomybhoy wrote: »

How many greyhounds do you think that happens to?
It is extremely naive to read anything on the ICABS or other anti human sites without carrying out your own research.
The association of hungry scroungers are notorious for spreading blatant mistruths to further their agenda.

That is a remarkable comment !. Who are these anti-humans ?. Have the Foxes & Hares got together to form a terrorist group ?.

So you who support Hunting & Coursing don't have an agenda ?. Are you suggesting that the figures for the number of Greyhounds killed in Pounds are fiction ?. Maybe the Local Authority Pounds, who supply the figures, are part of the Anti- humans ?.

DePurpereWolf

tomybhoy wrote: »

How many greyhounds do you think that happens to?
It is extremely naive to read anything on the ICABS or other anti human sites without carrying out your own research.
The association of hungry scroungers are notorious for spreading blatant mistruths to further their agenda.

Who knows?

We can argue here for ever and ever, but there is one organization that has the answer, the IGB. They know how many dogs are born because they all get a tattoo. Dogs that are born, have to die at one point. Substract from the number of pups the number of exports to US and UK (which have significantly dropped in recent years), pts and rehomed and you have a figure for greyhounds that are not accounted for.
It's not rocket science here.

Luckily we're not the first to investigate this. 14 000 greyhounds disposed of per year. (after exports) And only a 100 or so will be adopted. How many were pts by a vet? How many are unaccounted for?

http://www.ispca.ie/Greyhound-Breedhtml.aspx

tomybhoy

Its the association of hungry scroungers, I know you know who they are.
They are being investigated at the moment as you well know, registered charities have come under the microscope recently and groups aligned with international terrorist groups are being looked at also.
I hope you keep members as informed when the Gardai come calling as when you have propaganda to spread.
Anyone who releases mink into the countryside to decimate the habitat of the hare has no right to use any platform to pollute the minds of reasonable law abiding individuals.

Now give me the figures of the number of greyhounds that are found with their ears cuts off each year and you may be able to prove to me that it is not another scam carried out by the hungry scroungers like the strangled hare.

scartman1

Discodog wrote: »

By working animal you mean a breed that man has chosen to do a particular task. If there is nothing wrong with unwanted Greyhounds being killed then why won't the IGB release the numbers ?.

By making the assumption that it is ok to put down any unwanted animal you just fuel the problem in that people have no qualms about breeding more. The animal becomes something that you can breed, use purely for entertainment & then kill. Animal rights has become the new term of abuse in this debate as is the assumption that anyone who supports animal rights must be wrong or worse.

How about the moral responsibility of not breeding dogs that no one wants ?.

I believe probably if you do some maths like DePureWolf who has posted subsequently to your post then you may get a ball park result.
However anyone analysing this situation must consider how many cats and dogs are bred every year and how many are eventually put to sleep, for whatever reasons, ranging from sickness, old age, injury and so on.
Few enough dogs or for that matter domesticated animals die from natural causes the bulk of them are euthanased, and that should be considered by everybody when debating this issue.
As for the IGB, and I'm not speaking on their behalf, but i would think that it is next to near impossible to deliver figures for greyhounds put to sleep. It would involve considerable resources contacting all the vets and pounds and so on and unless it is 100% complete it would be inconclusive.
Why focus on Greyhounds specifically, why not spread your enquiries to the Gundog breeds, Lap dogs, sheepdogs. Surely all domesticated animals are bred for the use of humans in one shape or form and as I say, generally they are not afforded the right to die of natural causes as humans are.

EGAR

Scartman, your reasoning doesn't apply when you consider the vast amount of GH's bred for the simple reason of human amusement: *Great day out at the dogs* blabla. And the selfsame dogs are then discarded when they have outlived their usefullness. They are not working dogs, they are circus animals, bred solely for your amusement to see them race and bet on them.

Even I, as a Bull Breed rescue, have taken in GH's. From pounds, from syndicates, from owner/breeders/trainers. And the odd one was tied to my gates.

GH's are by far the most over produced breed of dogs in Ireland. And the one responsible for their registration etc namely the IGB is doing precious little to ensure their welfare in the aftermath when the circus is over.

DePurpereWolf

scartman1 wrote: »

I believe probably if you do some maths like DePureWolf who has posted subsequently to your post then you may get a ball park result.
However anyone analysing this situation must consider how many cats and dogs are bred every year and how many are eventually put to sleep, for whatever reasons, ranging from sickness, old age, injury and so on.

Let's get things straight here. When a greyhound is born the breeder makes sure that the pup will be able to race, otherwise it will not be registered (and end up in the bin). At around 18 months the breeder will start trying to sell the greyhound to trainers. If the dog is no good, it will be put to sleep. When the greyhound makes it to racing at age 2, it will race until it's 3, 4 years old. Then, they are disposed of. Bitches who had a good racing career get to spend a couple of years giving birth and are disposed of at age 8.

Most of the greyhounds that are rescued are 2 to 5 years old.

The average life expectancy of a Greyhound is 13.2 year.

What you are talking about is euthanasia of dogs that are terminally ill and are in too much pain.

Few enough dogs or for that matter domesticated animals die from natural causes the bulk of them are euthanased, and that should be considered by everybody when debating this issue.

euthanised because they are terminally ill. Please ask any pet owner if they will put their pet to sleep just because they feel like it.

But you make a good point. Is a greyhound a pet, or a farm animal in your eyes.

As for the IGB, and I'm not speaking on their behalf, but i would think that it is next to near impossible to deliver figures for greyhounds put to sleep. It would involve considerable resources contacting all the vets and pounds and so on and unless it is 100% complete it would be inconclusive.

I think you are underestimating the IGB and the greyhound industry here.
If you have a racing greyhound, you can go to http://www.greyhound-data.com/ and look up their family tree going back many many generations, well into the 19th century when racing started in the UK.
On top of that, if you feel like it, you can look up a dog and a bitch and 'virtually mate' them to check how much ancestry they have in common.
So, we know perfectly when where and how pups are born, but it would be too difficult to find out when where and how they die?

tomybhoy

Such hogwash, why then do I have greyhounds ranging in age from 16 months to 9 years of age?
This is just more anti propaganda, to generalize is to undermine any argument you might have.
All breeds of dogs are PTS for various reasons but the anti human brigade like to concentrate on greyhounds which are the best looked after breed of dogs IMO.
The posting of untruths is dispicable IMO.

EGAR

Tomybhoy, I have posted from experience, there is no untruth in what I wrote. Currently I have three Greyhounds residing at EGAR, all three ex-racers, two were subsequently bred from and are now 7 years old and of no use anymore to their ex-owner. The other bitch was raced but never bred from and as handed over to to me, she is 5.

scartman1

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Let's get things straight here. When a greyhound is born the breeder makes sure that the pup will be able to race, otherwise it will not be registered (and end up in the bin). At around 18 months the breeder will start trying to sell the greyhound to trainers. If the dog is no good, it will be put to sleep. When the greyhound makes it to racing at age 2, it will race until it's 3, 4 years old. Then, they are disposed of. Bitches who had a good racing career get to spend a couple of years giving birth and are disposed of at age 8.

Most of the greyhounds that are rescued are 2 to 5 years old.

The average life expectancy of a Greyhound is 13.2 year.?

Being involved in greyhounds I shall advise that all pups are registered from the time they are whelped. The stud dog owner has to also register the mating. If no pups are produced from the mating then the keeper of the stud book is informed. Its all very well regulated and that is why the pedigrees of greyhounds can be traced back over a hundred years.

At twelve months or so the greyhounds are registered again for racing and the owner gives them a racing name which it will carry with him. All of these steps have to be processed before the dog is allowed to race.

While obviously some greyhounds don't reach the standard to make it to the very top, the industry operates on having graded races between greyhounds of equal ability and thus most of the greyhounds do get to show their paces and continue to race until they are 5 years old approx. Others get injured while being reared and schooled for the track and may be retired to the breeding paddocks, rehomed, or euthanised depending on the severity of the injury, breeding potential etc. It is wrong to generalise but it can be stated that greyhounds are a breed of dog that is extremely well looked after.

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

What you are talking about is euthanasia of dogs that are terminally ill and are in too much pain.

euthanised because they are terminally ill. Please ask any pet owner if they will put their pet to sleep just because they feel like it.

But you make a good point. Is a greyhound a pet, or a farm animal in your eyes.?

I take it that you agree that most dogs are euthanised eventually, but what you find unacceptable is that some greyhounds may be euthanised due to being placed in a position where they may be injured or of not prowess enough resulting in being euthanised. Considerable efforts are being made to rehome greyhounds and they are becoming an ever more popular pet. They are in fact a lovely even tempered dog and make excellent companions for people. As to your query relating to greyhounds being working animals or pets, I would frankly say that they can be both and usually are.

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I think you are underestimating the IGB and the greyhound industry here.
If you have a racing greyhound, you can go to http://www.greyhound-data.com/ and look up their family tree going back many many generations, well into the 19th century when racing started in the UK.
On top of that, if you feel like it, you can look up a dog and a bitch and 'virtually mate' them to check how much ancestry they have in common.
So, we know perfectly when where and how pups are born, but it would be too difficult to find out when where and how they die?

I presume what you are advocating is that we set up a death registrar process for greyhounds. Why not other animals for that matter? I presume this has not been done as it would be impracticable, potentially impossible and would be pointless if not done completely. It would in fact be a waste of resources, better spent elsewhere in promoting rehoming programs and other initiatives.
You have acknowledged that the Greyhound industry is capable of registering all greyhounds born and tracing back pedigrees for generations. By this means we know how many pups are born each year. Can the same be said for other breeds of dogs? In reality the greyhound industry/sport is better regulated than most other areas of animal welfare yet seems to be the target of much ill informed comment.

Morganna

on a recent walk back in feb i photographed a blue greyhound ,dead and dumped at the edge of a forest minus her ears ,which where cut off so she couldnt be identified ,

tomybhoy

EGAR wrote: »

Tomybhoy, I have posted from experience, there is no untruth in what I wrote. Currently I have three Greyhounds residing at EGAR, all three ex-racers, two were subsequently bred from and are now 7 years old and of no use anymore to their ex-owner. The other bitch was raced but never bred from and as handed over to to me, she is 5.

Why then do I have dogs living in my house with my wife and kids?
You state greyhounds are discarded when of no more use which is a mistruth as far as I am concerned.
I spend a lot of money each year ensuring my dogs get the best of everything they could possibly want and I either keep myself or rehome any greyhound I am responsible for.
You have 3 greyhounds out of 25,000 born each year and yet you generalize that all greyhounds are discarded when they are no longer wanted, I have three male retired greyhounds with me which cannot be used for breeding as they would not have been good enough on the track to breed with, why do I have these dogs when they are of no use to me other than as a great companions?

DePurpereWolf

Scartman, that is exactly my point. The greyhound industry has all the figures. But the general public is not allowed to see what happens to the dogs when they are of no use. Because it's bad for the image of the industry.

We all have different opinions of what is acceptable greyhound treatment. But I would like to have people make their own decisions about them. If you find it normal that most of the greyhounds will not celebrate their 5th birthday, for whatever reason, that's your good right.

I think your excuse that it's too much of an effort is nonsense. An example from the UK where they track cattle, all 10 million of them. They register their birth, movement and death. http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/cattle/id_info.htm
You would think that registering the ~50.000 greyhound in Ireland wouldn't be such a big deal then. This is not a UK thing, it's practiced all over Europe.

The only thing I'm asking if that the trainers would add one line of information to their greyhounds registration on how it died. That's it. If they can register them, they can unregister them too.

Lets not confuse things and start discussing other breeds. They deserve attention too. But the greyhound industry is much different than any other breed in Ireland. It will be hard to compare.

EGAR

tomybhoy wrote: »

Why then do I have dogs living in my house with my wife and kids?
You state greyhounds are discarded when of no more use which is a mistruth as far as I am concerned.
I spend a lot of money each year ensuring my dogs get the best of everything they could possibly want and I either keep myself or rehome any greyhound I am responsible for.
You have 3 greyhounds out of 25,000 born each year and yet you generalize that all greyhounds are discarded when they are no longer wanted, I have three male retired greyhounds with me which cannot be used for breeding as they would not have been good enough on the track to breed with, why do I have these dogs when they are of no use to me other than as a great companions?

Those are just three GHs here at PRESENT and I am a BULL BREED RESCUE, in case you missed my first post, I have taken in an rehomed alot more over the 13 years EGAR is up and running. I have to turn GHs away every week as I simply do not have the room to accomodate them all. GH rescues around the country are full to the gills with dogs and many UK and German (!!) rescues take Irish ex-racers as well. So no, not just the three here but thousands!

Where did I generalise? I said the IGB is not overly concerned with GHs who have served their purpose. They even proudly announce how they sent retired racers to ITALY, a country which has such a severe stray problem itself that a dog is dumped there every two minutes. Some responsibility!

I've done my homework on this as I am in the midst of it. So please don't patronise me.

scartman1

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Scartman, that is exactly my point. The greyhound industry has all the figures. But the general public is not allowed to see what happens to the dogs when they are of no use. Because it's bad for the image of the industry.

We all have different opinions of what is acceptable greyhound treatment. But I would like to have people make their own decisions about them. If you find it normal that most of the greyhounds will not celebrate their 5th birthday, for whatever reason, that's your good right.

I think your excuse that it's too much of an effort is nonsense. An example from the UK where they track cattle, all 10 million of them. They register their birth, movement and death. http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/cattle/id_info.htm
You would think that registering the ~50.000 greyhound in Ireland wouldn't be such a big deal then. This is not a UK thing, it's practiced all over Europe.

The only thing I'm asking if that the trainers would add one line of information to their greyhounds registration on how it died. That's it. If they can register them, they can unregister them too.

Lets not confuse things and start discussing other breeds. They deserve attention too. But the greyhound industry is much different than any other breed in Ireland. It will be hard to compare.

Obviously, the Beef industry do this to ensure traceabilty in the meat industry. It is a requirement so that farmers can sell their beef. So it is incentivised. Whether it can be done with greyhound and other dog breeds depends I suppose if you can find a means of incentivising the registration of the time and nature of death.
The other thing to ensure is that it is certified by a competent independent person and it will obviously thus take resources to do it. I never said it was impossible, rather I said it was impracticable and almost impossible.
The focus should not to malign the Greyhound industry as they don't have these figures at hand, as many animal registration groups don't have the relevent information, but rather focus efforts in rehoming greyhounds.
Further it is not correct to say that all greyhounds are discarded at the end of their racing careers, as this is sensationalising the argument for dramatic effect.
Personally, I have 4 greyhounds, 2 of which are saplings and hopefully will be racing this autumn, their Dam who is 5 years old, and the Grand Dam who is 9 years old now. There are many like me who just keep a few for the sake of a hobby and we do look after them as we are very fond of them.

In general I agree with you in that animals have to be treated better, but I think having a focus on the Greyhound industry which is highly regulated and with the greyhounds receiving the best of vetinary care during their racing careers, means other areas are overlooked. Many strays that are left loose from houses are starving, recieve little or no vetinary treatment from when they are born until they die are a much bigger issue overall.