Are all degrees created equal?

Handsome Bob · 09-05-2010 03:01PM

Giblet wrote: »

Any idiot can get a degree.

Any idiot can get a degree indeed, one worth having on the other hand is an entirely different story.

nyarlothothep · 09-05-2010 04:10PM

Openmp wrote: »

Surely you should have thought about that before you signed up? Why didn't you get a job in the civil service if you want to drink tea and coffee all day? Methinks you were watching far too much Scrubs for your own good during your informative years. Life's tough. Get over it.

Life can be tough, it needn't be unnecessarily.

Tar.Aldarion · 09-05-2010 04:19PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

.. you know newly qualified doctors might get paid buttons but I would have thought that being in a position to save someone's life would have been one of the greatest rewards.

It's really saving someone life -vs- saving a computer from crashing.

What would you choose?

Good quality 9's rated computer systems save far more lives than doctors, much as the machinery they use. If you make a simple mistake in a variable type in a program you could kill a lot of people...and you just typed three letters.

opinion guy · 09-05-2010 06:17PM

Openmp wrote: »

Surely you should have thought about that before you signed up? Why didn't you get a job in the civil service if you want to drink tea and coffee all day? Methinks you were watching far too much Scrubs for your own good during your informative years. Life's tough. Get over it.

Who said i was talking in the first person Captain Presumptious ??

Noreen1 wrote: »

Which Irish Colleges/Universities have the best reputation for Law, or Engineering? Either within Ireland, or Internationally?

Noreen

Law is kind of a bad example since all law is regional international reps are meaningless. Unless you are talking about international law - but thats a postgrad specialisation, no ?

Engineering. I think UCD but I wouldn't be too sure. Besides engineering is a catch all for many things. If you are talking Electronic engineering I think DCU have a great rep. Aernautical I think Limerick. But I think CD have the biggest broadest engineering department.

Thirdfox · 09-05-2010 06:29PM

Thought DIT had a pretty reputable engineering department down in Bolton street...

As for law - as the big five firms are located in Dublin, generally UCD/TCD (they both have lecturers who literally wrote the book on certain subjects). UCC has a good reputation too with their IRLII programme. Of course, not everyone wants to be a top tier commerical firm solicitor, just giving you an opinion from that perspective.

ya-ba-da-ba-doo · 09-05-2010 06:29PM

I don't really agree with the argument that Doctors, scientists, etc. save lives while your average I.T. worker, camera man, bank employee, etc. are just going through the motions. The employed serve different functions to society, which may sound obvious. There shouldn't really be a hierarchy of jobs.

Where would doctors be without the tools they need?

09-05-2010 07:46PM

ya-ba-da-ba-doo wrote: »

I don't really agree with the argument that Doctors, scientists, etc. save lives while your average I.T. worker, camera man, bank employee, etc. are just going through the motions. The employed serve different functions to society, which may sound obvious. There shouldn't really be a hierarchy of jobs.

Where would doctors be without the tools they need?

Exactly. I wonder about the intelligence of someone who thinks medical degrees are the only ones worth doing. A lot of people look down on my degree (languages) but forget that translating and interpreting is often crucially important. I'm sick of people thinking Arts degrees = worthless.

opinion guy · 10-05-2010 01:46AM

ya-ba-da-ba-doo wrote: »

I don't really agree with the argument that Doctors, scientists, etc. save lives while your average I.T. worker, camera man, bank employee, etc. are just going through the motions. The employed serve different functions to society, which may sound obvious. There shouldn't really be a hierarchy of jobs.

Where would doctors be without the tools they need?

Eh yes and no. The IT worker, camera man, bank employee aren't really serving society if they are working for private enterprise. They are serving shareholders. Similarly the IT worker in the HSE is probably serving society more than a doctor is working for a pharmaceutical company.

Its not what you decide to study, its how you chose to use it.

ya-ba-da-ba-doo · 10-05-2010 02:09AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Eh yes and no. The IT worker, camera man, bank employee aren't really serving society if they are working for private enterprise. They are serving shareholders. Similarly the IT worker in the HSE is probably serving society more than a doctor is working for a pharmaceutical company.

Its not what you decide to study, its how you chose to use it.

Yeah I get what you mean. It's a really vague thing to analyze - The importance of jobs - but for the superiority complex surrounding people with medical degrees, and those studying medical degrees, really should stop.

(though the majority aren't doing them for the flashy two letters before their name).

Do what you're good at and you like, not something you're liked for being good at - If you get me!

drkpower · 10-05-2010 09:11AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Eh yes and no. The IT worker, camera man, bank employee aren't really serving society if they are working for private enterprise. They are serving shareholders. Similarly the IT worker in the HSE is probably serving society more than a doctor is working for a pharmaceutical company.

Its not what you decide to study, its how you chose to use it.

Very black & white way to look at it.

Is the doctor working for a private hospital only serving shareholders? Or is a medical devices employee who invents a life-changing (for millions) cardiac stent only serving shareholders? And which is doing more for society - these guys or the IT tech who works at Bantry General?

The idea that you need to work for the public service in order to 'serve society' is ridiculous. Clearly much of the advances in society generally, including heatlhcare, have come from the 'non-public' sector.

PS - this is not intended as a slight on the PS.....:D

opinion guy · 10-05-2010 09:58AM

drkpower wrote: »

Very black & white way to look at it.

Is the doctor working for a private hospital only serving shareholders? Or is a medical devices employee who invents a life-changing (for millions) cardiac stent only serving shareholders? And which is doing more for society - these guys or the IT tech who works at Bantry General?

The idea that you need to work for the public service in order to 'serve society' is ridiculous. Clearly much of the advances in society generally, including heatlhcare, have come from the 'non-public' sector.

PS - this is not intended as a slight on the PS.....:D

Yeah I'm aware of this - I was keeping it simple to make my point.

You could easily argue that medical research scientists do the most benefit. After all if you cure cancer you benefit millions versus the doctor who only helps one patient at a time. But then also the Canadian Financial regulator did Canadian society immense benefit by keeping their banks in line.

But there obviously extremes on the spectrum. However the one thing most of us can agree on is that bank executives are by and large evil and benefit only themselves

Humria · 10-05-2010 05:45PM

After reading 19 pages of this I feel I need to make a few points.

The main one is there are huge differences between university systems here and in the UK so making direct comparisons is just not accurate is some cases.

When someone is choosing a university in the UK they automatically check rankings and a lot will move across the country to go to university. There are huge differences between different institutions that offer the same course, take for example engineering. It's a lot easier to get into an engineering course in somewhere like Bolton than Imperial College London. In Ireland, entry levels to engineering are pretty standard across the country and so most people tend to choose a university close to them. To say most Irish leaving Cert students are influenced by ranking is obviously not true. Therefore, on average, first year engineering students in each university have similar leaving cert scores. I've seen people say that Trinity has the "best of the best". I don't believe it. A lot of people that are very intelligent and achieve well academically go to a university close to them. That is usually not Trinity for most of the country. So in that regard Trinity is not superior to the rest of the universities.

Putting aside reputation and league tables is anyone going to tell me that a student of medicine, law engineering, psychology, occupational therapy, ect, gets a significantly better education at Trinity?

In the UK people get prestige by going to a great university. Here, I think it's more by having a course with high points.

The point where ranking come into play for most students is postgraduate studies. Tbh, there are higher ranked universities in the UK than Trinity so in my opinion it would be better to go there if that is what you are after.

On the issue of international reputation, I went to a good university in the UK for a post grad and what my tutor said to me was when it came to Irish students, most recognised that the system here is like Scotland where people go to a place near them. They look at your degree and experience rather than university. In my course they didn't regard the Trinity graduate any better than one from another Irish university. That could just be Psychology though.

I'm not Trinity bashing but it just seems that it's over-rated in some cases. I have read the examples of where it was well regarded, but there are also courses and career avenues that don't rate it better than our other universities.

Magill · 10-05-2010 06:17PM

Like it matters in the long run, once you get your foot in the door, it will come down to whos better at the job that will progress faster. IMO the only thing that having a degree in a higher 'ranked' uni/college helps with is your first job, then it just comes down to the person. EXP > all.

Killer Pigeon · 10-05-2010 06:25PM

Humria wrote: »

After reading 19 pages of this I feel I need to make a few points.

The main one is there are huge differences between university systems here and in the UK so making direct comparisons is just not accurate is some cases.

When someone is choosing a university in the UK they automatically check rankings and a lot will move across the country to go to university. There are huge differences between different institutions that offer the same course, take for example engineering. It's a lot easier to get into an engineering course in somewhere like Bolton than Imperial College London. In Ireland, entry levels to engineering are pretty standard across the country and so most people tend to choose a university close to them. To say most Irish leaving Cert students are influenced by ranking is obviously not true. Therefore, on average, first year engineering students in each university have similar leaving cert scores. I've seen people say that Trinity has the "best of the best". I don't believe it. A lot of people that are very intelligent and achieve well academically go to a university close to them. That is usually not Trinity for most of the country. So in that regard Trinity is not superior to the rest of the universities.

Putting aside reputation and league tables is anyone going to tell me that a student of medicine, law engineering, psychology, occupational therapy, ect, gets a significantly better education at Trinity?

In the UK people get prestige by going to a great university. Here, I think it's more by having a course with high points.

The point where ranking come into play for most students is postgraduate studies. Tbh, there are higher ranked universities in the UK than Trinity so in my opinion it would be better to go there if that is what you are after.

On the issue of international reputation, I went to a good university in the UK for a post grad and what my tutor said to me was when it came to Irish students, most recognised that the system here is like Scotland where people go to a place near them. They look at your degree and experience rather than university. In my course they didn't regard the Trinity graduate any better than one from another Irish university. That could just be Psychology though.

I'm not Trinity bashing but it just seems that it's over-rated in some cases. I have read the examples of where it was well regarded, but there are also courses and career avenues that don't rate it better than our other universities.

Agreed.

Any naysayers?

*silence*

hada · 10-05-2010 07:03PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Agreed.

Any naysayers?

*silence*

This is what I said a number of pages back, but I gave up.

The only people to seem to be propelling the idea of TCD beats all, are the TCDers themselves.

Thirdfox wrote: »

As for law - as the big five firms are located in Dublin, generally UCD/TCD (they both have lecturers who literally wrote the book on certain subjects).

Leaving aside the fact that this is a gross exageration. That makes UCD/TCD students the best because...?

Thirdfox wrote: »

UCC has a good reputation too with their IRLII programme. Of course, not everyone wants to be a top tier commerical firm solicitor, just giving you an opinion from that perspective.

I would pay to see the look of shock on your face when you enter the work force and have to take orders/work alongside non-UCD/TCD graduates.

Boy am I glad that my many TCD friends are nowhere near as arrogant as some of the posts here.

Get real.

evercloserunion · 10-05-2010 07:19PM

hada wrote: »

I would pay to see the look of shock on your face when you enter the work force and have to take orders/work alongside non-UCD/TCD graduates.

Not only non-UCD/TCD law students, but also arts students and people who studied, for example, legal studies in an IT. I know people like this who now have very successful careers in law (yes, in big commercial firms). And of course plenty of students of the technical sciences have gone on to become very successful lawyers in the past. Takes all sorts, as they say.

Rockrugby · 10-05-2010 07:41PM

I'm in school atm however; Our teachers pushes the idea that universty is for the educated of Dublin society, where an IT is a place to put rest.

Contacts can be made in TCD/UCD, that lead to a big house, a big car and a big pay cheque

Thirdfox · 10-05-2010 07:41PM

hada wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that this is a gross exageration. That makes UCD/TCD students the best because...?

If you cared to read the question of the person who asked it, she was not asking who has the best students, but rather the reputation of the various 3rd level institutions when it comes to law and engineering.

Does having professors who are recognised as the leading minds on a particular field of law teach you that law themselves rather than another improve your understanding? I would suspect so. You are free to argue otherwise, but at least address the point at hand and not one you invented yourself.

Why are you in Cambridge? If not to benefit from the great minds of the professors who are there?

Seriously, why are you in Cambridge? If all you need is sheer determinism and hard work why not choose some random college and go there? What is your subjective quality assessment method for distinguishing between 3rd level institutions?

I see you didn't attack my suggestion for Bolton Street, DIT in regards to engineering. Was it too unelitist and unarrogant for you to comment on?

I would pay to see the look of shock on your face when you enter the work force and have to take orders/work alongside non-UCD/TCD graduates.

Boy am I glad that my many TCD friends are nowhere near as arrogant as some of the posts here.

And I would be interested to see if you are successful in your attempts to follow in the footsteps of Tom Courtney as an academic/professional lawyer after your stint in Cambridge. I wouldn't waste my money on seeing it though.

You seem to misinterpret my statements as arrogance. I'm glad that my various friends from different 3rd level institutions throughout the world don't have such an attitude as yours.

Nor are you correct in thinking that I would have any problems working with anyone from any background - as long as they are good to work with, who cares? I fear I won't be able to convince you, but then again, I don't really have to.

Get real.

Right back atcha

Killer Pigeon · 10-05-2010 07:49PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

If you cared to read the question of the person who asked it, she was not asking who has the best students, but rather the reputation of the various 3rd level institutions when it comes to law and engineering.

Does having professors who are recognised as the leading minds on a particular field of law teach you that law themselves rather than another improve your understanding? I would suspect so. You are free to argue otherwise, but at least address the point at hand and not one you invented yourself.

Why are you in Cambridge? If not to benefit from the great minds of the professors who are there?

Seriously, why are you in Cambridge? If all you need is sheer determinism and hard work why not choose some random college and go there? What is your subjective quality assessment method for distinguishing between 3rd level institutions?

I see you didn't attack my suggestion for Bolton Street, DIT in regards to engineering. Was it too unelitist and unarrogant for you to comment on?

And I would be interested to see if you are successful in your attempts to follow in the footsteps of Tom Courtney as an academic/professional lawyer after your stint in Cambridge. I wouldn't waste my money on seeing it though.

You seem to misinterpret my statements as arrogance. I'm glad that my various friends from different 3rd level institutions throughout the world don't have such an attitude as yours.

Nor are you correct in thinking that I would have any problems working with anyone from any background - as long as they are good to work with, who cares? I fear I won't be able to convince you, but then again, I don't really have to.

Right back atcha

http://paulhutch.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/demotivator1.jpg

hada · 10-05-2010 07:58PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

If you cared to read the question of the person who asked it, she was not asking who has the best students, but rather the reputation of the various 3rd level institutions when it comes to law and engineering.

Does having professors who are recognised as the leading minds on a particular field of law teach you that law themselves rather than another improve your understanding? I would suspect so. You are free to argue otherwise, but at least address the point at hand and not one you invented yourself.

Why are you in Cambridge? If not to benefit from the great minds of the professors who are there?

Seriously, why are you in Cambridge? If all you need is sheer determinism and hard work why not choose some random college and go there? What is your subjective quality assessment method for distinguishing between 3rd level institutions?

I see you didn't attack my suggestion for Bolton Street, DIT in regards to engineering. Was it too unelitist and unarrogant for you to comment on?

And I would be interested to see if you are successful in your attempts to follow in the footsteps of Tom Courtney as an academic/professional lawyer after your stint in Cambridge. I wouldn't waste my money on seeing it though.

You seem to misinterpret my statements as arrogance. I'm glad that my various friends from different 3rd level institutions throughout the world don't have such an attitude as yours.

Nor are you correct in thinking that I would have any problems working with anyone from any background - as long as they are good to work with, who cares? I fear I won't be able to convince you, but then again, I don't really have to.

Right back atcha

I haven't got the full time to respond to this, so I'll leave it short and sweet.

1. What gives an institution its reputation? Its students.

2. I've worked for Tom, he's a nice guy. I guess you'll just have to trust his judgment on my ability then.

3. Comparing my choice to go to Cambridge versus another uni at postgrad, and my choice to go to another Irish university versus TCD/UCD at undergrad, is incomparable. Why? Because with the latter, who actually cares (bar you).

And finally,

4. Who would want to go to Dublin anyway? The price of a pint is ridiculous.

Killer Pigeon · 10-05-2010 08:02PM

This might be a bit off topic but isn't it a lovely day outside!?

http://www.hawaiianatolls.org/images/Aug_Sep2007/D2_sunny_day_440.JPG

hada · 10-05-2010 08:02PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

unarrogant for you to comment on?

ps. unarrogant isn't a word.

Are you sure you went to TCD? :rolleyes:

Killer Pigeon · 10-05-2010 08:05PM

hada wrote: »

ps. unarrogant isn't a word.

Are you sure you went to TCD? :rolleyes:

Isn't it just a great day to go to the beach?

http://4cuisinart-resort.com/1LG-cusinart-resort-sandy-beaches.jpg

cson · 10-05-2010 08:10PM

hada wrote: »

4. Who would want to go to Dublin anyway? The price of a pint is ridiculous.

Between €2-3 in Diceys during the week is fairly ****ing mad to be honest, I'd agree.

Thirdfox · 10-05-2010 08:15PM

hada wrote: »

ps. unarrogant isn't a word.

Are you sure you went to TCD? :rolleyes:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arrogant

Try again.

Tar.Aldarion · 10-05-2010 08:18PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arrogant

Try again.

What are you even talking about?

evercloserunion · 10-05-2010 08:19PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What are you even talking about?

He's pointing to that page as proof that "unarrogant" is a word, as it is listed on that page as a variant of "arrogant".

Killer Pigeon · 10-05-2010 08:23PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What are you even talking about?

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Using-complicated-words-when-arguing-against-dumb-people/248138553169

opinion guy · 10-05-2010 08:25PM

Rockrugby wrote: »

I'm in school atm however; Our teachers pushes the idea that universty is for the educated of Dublin society, where an IT is a place to put rest.

Contacts can be made in TCD/UCD, that lead to a big house, a big car and a big pay cheque

You're teacher is talking shite. Don't listen to that kind of tripe

evercloserunion · 10-05-2010 08:26PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Your teacher is talking shite. Don't listen to that kind of tripe

Come on now.

Anyway, I've changed my mind about this thread. It's fantastic.

Are all degrees created equal?

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