What is this???

Green Hand Guy · 06-05-2010 01:29PM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Maybe if you asked people in person, rather than sitting behind a screen, you would find that most people would actually like to speak Irish, and wish they could with greater fluency. Stop speaking for other people.

But you are also speaking for other people. I don't see either of you presenting any figures to prove either point.

But, just to give the opinion of at least one random student, I will go on record here to say that I do not want to speak Irish and do not care one bit about increasing my fluency.

g5fd6ow0hseima · 06-05-2010 01:38PM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Defintion of a Dead Language:

A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community.

Census 2006:

1,656,790 out of 4,057,646 people (40.8%) speak Irish in Ireland.

Theres your statistics. Seems to me Irish is alive and kicking.

Im honestly taken aback. 40% of Irish people can speak Irish.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Your well able to say that the SU isn't here to serve for Irish. So, does the SU do? I am yet to see what the SU has done for me? I thought that the SU is here to support the students. There is ovbiously a group of students who want to speak Irish. Why can't the SU support them?

What does the SU do? Well, we dont know at the best of times. Yes, they're here to support students, but ive never had any real problems during my years here, so I cannot comment on that side of things.

But, like all organisations, the SU is under strain. To place unrealistic demands on an entire student body just to serve a small nucleas of people is asking too much. Now, given that 40% of Ireland speaks Irish, and for arguements sake, one quarter of DCU's students are from abroad, that leave us with roughly 1/3 of our students who speak Irish. In this case, your campaign may have some legitimacy.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

We're not like you, we don't speak for other people. We simply raising a platform to allow freedom of opinion. It just doesn't suit you that the opinions clash with yours. Nothing militant about that.

Im just speaking on life's experience. For instance, a discussion yesterday popped up regarding the fact that Irish is still a compulsary subject in the leaving, something which I did not raise. And this wasnt the first time ive heard such talk. Given that there are many people who would drop Irish secondary school tomorrow if they could, surely this is reflective of reality? Or am I just speaking for others once again - It must be all in my head.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

I may be part of tiny minority that is in DCU who hail from Gaeltacht regions. However, I'm not in a small majority of people who wish to speak Irish here in DCU.

Yeah, as ive roughly guessed, one third of the students do.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Do you really want answer?

Go back and read some of your replies. Some soul searching might help also.

Yeah, it would be nice of you

vinnyb · 06-05-2010 01:49PM

Green Hand Guy wrote: »

But you are also speaking for other people. I don't see either of you presenting any figures to prove either point.

But, just to give the opinion of at least one random student, I will go on record here to say that I do not want to speak Irish and do not care one bit about increasing my fluency.

Here are the opinions of loads of random students, I think it is obvious we are talking on their behalf.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ni-ionadaionn-Aontas-na-Mac-Leinn-OCBAC-me-i-gceart/115365665160919?ref=ts#!/pages/Ni-ionadaionn-Aontas-na-Mac-Leinn-OCBAC-me-i-gceart/115365665160919?ref=ts

lil_cain · 06-05-2010 01:53PM

vinnyb wrote: »

I'm puzzled we are attempting to do something about it....

Also my question still stands, why do all over Unions have Irish Officers on the Exec. and we don't? Are we sub-standard Irish speakers in comparison to other Universities Irish speakers?

And according to the latest in depth statistical analysis "'The Irish Language And The Irish People' report, by sociologist Fr Micheal MacGreil SJ and Fergal Rhatigan" the amount of people with a competence in the Irish Language is actually rising, according to the same survey 93pc of Irish people are in favour of having Irish revived. So for me the evidence points to the elevation of the Irish language as something of a populist move.

No, you're attempting to change the SU. Cid's point is that if you want Irish to be an important part of the SU, get up and do things in the SU in Irish. Facebook groups with lists of demands are not doing something. Organising regular events is.

Cid-Highwind · 06-05-2010 01:56PM

vinnyb wrote: »

I'm puzzled we are attempting to do something about it....

Saying your rights are not being given to you is very different to joining clubs, societies, committees, and running for election to further your aims.

vinnyb wrote: »

Also my question still stands, why do all over Unions have Irish Officers on the Exec. and we don't? Are we sub-standard Irish speakers in comparison to other Universities Irish speakers?

The fact that others have them is irrelevant. What I have said is that the Union Executive should continue to be a small group without members elected solely to push the cause of any given minority. If an officer is granted to support your minority cause then everyone should get one.

In the past there were Women's Officers to represent the issues of women as a minority. Since men are now a minority perhaps we should give them an officer.

vinnyb wrote: »

And according to the latest in depth statistical analysis "'The Irish Language And The Irish People' report, by sociologist Fr Micheal MacGreil SJ and Fergal Rhatigan" the amount of people with a competence in the Irish Language is actually rising, according to the same survey 93pc of Irish people are in favour of having Irish revived. So for me the evidence points to the elevation of the Irish language as something of a populist move.

Great, wonderful. I have no problem with Irish.

However, it doesn't matter at all what the Irish people are in favour of, only what the Students of DCU are in favour of. Clearly many of them totally disagree totally with your aims, and others (myself included) who might agree with some of what you want to achieve are turned off by this crazy militantism and talk of rights and demands.

BuyMeEggs · 06-05-2010 02:02PM

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

But, like all organisations, the SU is under strain. To place unrealistic demands on an entire student body just to serve a small nucleas of people is asking too much. Now, given that 40% of Ireland speaks Irish, and for arguements sake, one quarter of DCU's students are from abroad, that leave us with roughly 1/3 of our students who speak Irish. In this case, your campaign may have some legitimacy.

I know the SU is under strain, but so is every SU in Ireland. But every other SU in Ireland has an Irish Officer, and they seem to be doing fine with it. For example, Seachtain na Gaeilge was bigger in UCD this year, than the RAG Ball. We just representation.

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Im just speaking on life's experience. For instance, a discussion yesterday popped up regarding the fact that Irish is still a compulsary subject in the leaving, something which I did not raise. And this wasnt the first time ive heard such talk. Given that there are many people who would drop Irish secondary school tomorrow if they could, surely this is reflective of reality? Or am I just speaking for others once again - It must be all in my head.

This is irrelevant to the point we are trying to make. Regarding Irish, the education system is horrible. We would like to improve fluency around campus.

In reply to lil_cain,

We did attempt to organise regular events in conjection with the SU this year. Yet, event he exec. members would admit that they were not supportive enough. For example, Seachtain na Gaeilge was meant to be a SU campaign week, yet not even one sabbat attend any event.

lil_cain · 06-05-2010 02:05PM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

We did attempt to organise regular events in conjection with the SU this year. Yet, event he exec. members would admit that they were not supportive enough. For example, Seachtain na Gaeilge was meant to be a SU campaign week, yet not even one sabbat attend any event.

Out of interest, how many people came to the events of Irish Week?

BuyMeEggs · 06-05-2010 02:11PM

lil_cain wrote: »

Out of interest, how many people came to the events of Irish Week?

Well, I didn't have a clipboard, but

The Celtic Ball was attended by 90 people.

Scoráil Sciobtha -40-45 in the Nubar

Debate - SU President cancelled last minute

EDIT - Interestingly, there was more people at the Celtic Ball, then the presidental debate in the NuBar in the same week.

Daysha · 06-05-2010 02:15PM

Am I the only one that finds this whole thing just ridiculous? I can appreciate where those people who made that group are coming from, Irish representation in DCU compared to other colleges IS lacking, but I also understand some of the things they did while going about it was plain stupid, like the list of "demands" and the idiotic logo.

But the reaction of some people on the other side of the argument has blown it completely out of proportion. You'd swear the way some of you reacted that they've personally attacked your own mother or something. And also... "I bet this group can get more members than the IrishSoc mob"...does someone want to explain to me how in the name of christ that helps matters? It's fair to say that communication between these two camps (are there even camps at this stage?) are severely lacking, so people are just resorting to petty FB groups and childish name-calling.

Some of you need to take a chill pill and go for a walk outside or something, it's a nice day out there

Canis Lupus · 06-05-2010 02:25PM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Defintion of a Dead Language:

A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community.

Census 2006:

1,656,790 out of 4,057,646 people (40.8%) speak Irish in Ireland.[/COLOR]

I'd be interested to see out of that 1.6 million people how many could hold a genuine conversation in Irish. Ticking a box on a form means **** all.

g5fd6ow0hseima · 06-05-2010 02:33PM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

This is irrelevant to the point we are trying to make. Regarding Irish, the education system is horrible. We would like to improve fluency around campus.

I wouldnt see it as irrelevant. Im merely pointing to a certain sentiment within the whole Irish language debate in order to show that there are people on the opposite end of the spectrum.

The fact that there's people like me who really couldnt give a flying crap about Irish does of course point to the education which fails thousands of us in our quest to learn Irish. Therefore, it is the education system which is at fault. Given that, I fail to see what agitating the students union could possibly achieve, barring some token gesture which will have no tangible benefits, but simply to satisfy a few 'campaigners'. Or maybe the weekly SU e-mails will be bi-lingual?

MonaghanPenguin · 06-05-2010 02:35PM

http://www.tallyman.ie/?p=805

I need to bless myself before I say this but Steve Conlon sums it up perfectly for me.

Green Hand Guy · 06-05-2010 02:40PM

vinnyb wrote: »

Here are the opinions of loads of random students, I think it is obvious we are talking on their behalf.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ni-ionadaionn-Aontas-na-Mac-Leinn-OCBAC-me-i-gceart/115365665160919?ref=ts#!/pages/Ni-ionadaionn-Aontas-na-Mac-Leinn-OCBAC-me-i-gceart/115365665160919?ref=ts

No, that's the opinion of loads of random Irish-speaking students. Hardly a fair sample of the average DCU person.

If that's going to be how you do it, then assume that the other poster is talking on behalf of everyone who isn't in that facebook group :P

gizmo · 06-05-2010 02:51PM

vinnyb wrote: »

Here are the opinions of loads of random students, I think it is obvious we are talking on their behalf.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ni-ionadaionn-Aontas-na-Mac-Leinn-OCBAC-me-i-gceart/115365665160919?ref=ts#!/pages/Ni-ionadaionn-Aontas-na-Mac-Leinn-OCBAC-me-i-gceart/115365665160919?ref=ts

Not obvious to me as I don't understand what any of them are saying. Could you translate please?

TheChrisD · 06-05-2010 02:54PM

MonaghanPenguin wrote: »

I need to bless myself before I say this but Steve Conlon sums it up perfectly for me.

Wow, never though I'd hear anyone saying that, especially not from you Niall.

MonaghanPenguin · 06-05-2010 02:56PM

TheChrisD wrote: »

Wow, never though I'd hear anyone saying that, especially not from you Niall.

ah no, me and Steve get on quite well and agree on more than you'd think. That was just a little swipe at another old hack on my part

06-05-2010 03:11PM

I don't understand why An Cumann Gaelach want the Students' Union to use Irish; the vast majority of DCU students cannot speak Irish and have no interest in it.

One of the problems Irish speakers have is that they depend on those in positions of authority to help their efforts to revive the language, which is neither pragmatic nor sensible as everyone who can speak Irish can also speak English and you're pretty much forcing people to be exposed to it. It's this kind of **** (e.g. compulsory and atrociously-taught Irish classes for fourteen years) that makes people resent the language. Often, Irish speakers throw a fit when the languages aren't treated equally; Irish may be the first language according to the constitution, but there are more fluent speakers of other languages in Ireland. In practice, it ranks below English, Polish and who knows what else.

Does the fact that we aren't all speaking Irish not tell you something? You can throw all the money, laws and demands you want into the mix, but such BS will never restore Irish to the status of first language because it causes widespread resentment.

Here's an idea: stop trying to push Irish on everyone. Let the majority speak whatever they want, and if people decide they'd like to learn Irish, then they can. But this Facebook group is a perfect example of why Irish is so widely ridiculed and disliked: an Cumann Gaelach has made itself extremely unpopular with non-Irish speakers (and myself, who used to be fluent) as a result of it. People take out their frustration on the language, even though some fanatical enthusiasts and the education system are responsible for that frustration.

06-05-2010 03:14PM

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=119818634709393&ref=mf

Nice.

Skylinehead · 06-05-2010 04:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=119818634709393&ref=mf

Nice.

batman007 · 06-05-2010 05:05PM

gizmo wrote: »

Not obvious to me as I don't understand what any of them are saying. Could you translate please?

There are a number of replies in English on the facebook page if you want to get a quick general idea.
And any comments in Irish that you wish to read just copy and paste them to boards and I would be more than happy to translate them for you.

:)

Please read this link the post at this link.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=115365665160919&topic=42

It as an attempt to refocus the issue and stop all this petty squabbling.

phantom_lord · 06-05-2010 05:17PM

lol @ pointing out that your facebook group has 450 as proof how many people support this issue

GLaDOS · 06-05-2010 05:21PM

phantom_lord wrote: »

lol @ pointing out that your facebook group has 450 as proof how many people support this issue

They should have demanded a dislike button while they're at it...

Grudaire · 06-05-2010 06:11PM

Daysha wrote: »

Some of you need to take a chill pill and go for a walk outside or something, it's a nice day out there

Having logged on to thank this post I feel I should at least say something (Unfortunatly Daysha the message was abot as effective as pissing in the wind)

I'm particuarly surprised at the venom that is being spat at the Irish Language, there's irony in some people pointing out that nobody speaks the language and others giving out that some links go to people using the aul Gaeilge on facebook (Google Translate FFS).

Can't we all just get along?

Yukina · 06-05-2010 07:34PM

Interesting debate, the Irish-speaking enthusiasts demand rights for what is quite clearly a minority, an Irish officer etc.. while the group debating against them are going mental.

As a gaelgeoir that happened to be born in England and live there for almost half my life to date, I think that its ridiculous that people are so up in arms over the issue. Yes the constitution says that Irish is the official first language of the state, but in practice it is very rare to come across somebody that is not of school going age that can speak more Irish than is mentioned in that Carlsburg ad.

To me the irish speaking enthusiasts on this forum don't seem to realise that by forcing irish on the student body at large they will not be doing themselves or their cause any favours. It doesn't work for the department of education, it wont work here.

Personally I speak quite fluent Irish, but I choose not to on a daily basis because the majority of the people I would talk to wouldn't have the slightest clue what the hell I was on about, it'd be just as effective if I was talking Korean.

If people are interested enough in the language they will seek the classes out, they will find a way to develop their interests.

If you take issue with the fact that say for instance music society don't organise an irish language open mic night, or drama don't organise an irish language play, why not do it yourself?

I understand it can't all be down to an cumann gaelach to organise events like this, but if the demand is there why not start a new society that can?

Bó le bata, is capall le ceanseacht.

Attol · 06-05-2010 07:54PM

At this stage I think the campaigners for this are just not interested in anyone else's views. I personally have no issue with Irish on campus but I don't agree with all your demands. Branding myself and everyone else who hasn't jumped on this bandwagon of militism as "anti-Irish" just highlights this. By that logic we could brand you all as "anti-English". None of you are interested in anyone else's views and just want to rant and act like an oppressed minority.

I liked the idea of Cumann Gaelach and learning a bit more Irish but after seeing how the chair behaves I have absolutely no interest in having anything to do with the society or any other people who are playing the victim part here. You had a chance to make a decent, mature campaign. Instead you chose the throwing your toys out of the pram approach and lost a lot of support from people who otherwise would have supported your campaign.

Noodleworm · 06-05-2010 07:56PM

^agree with above

but still no one is answering the question much what would an Irish officer do and what can societies do? In precise terms? and also, why can't you do it yourself.

oh and some quick googling to inquire into these percentages thrown around. 40% irish speakers? by any chance was this taken from wikipedia? if so, you were kind of quoting out of context.

Since Irish is an obligatory subject in English-medium schools, it would be reasonable to expect that many people are reasonably fluent second-language speakers. There is, however, no objective evidence for this, though many regard themselves as competent in the language to some degree: 1,656,790 (41.9% of the total population aged three years and over) regard themselves as competent Irish speakers.

more realistically this says 40% of of Irish people (ages 3 and up) have some Irish, probably that taught in your average school. Now if only 40% have any grasp of a language that compulsory in schools thats not too great.

llortaton · 06-05-2010 08:02PM

T'is a shame really. I'm from Dublin myself, nobody in my immediate surroundings has a word of Irish but I always insisted I learn, I've spent many a summer attending, studying and subsequently working in gaeltacht summer colleges to promote Irish so I *very* strongly believe the language needs promotion.

I'm also an avid supported of the SU, have been a class rep since my first year and have always tried to help out with the union when possible.

DCUSU needs to step up to the mark and ensure that DCU meets its legal requirements under the Official Languages Act, just as I would expect DCUSU to ensure the university meets all of its legal requirements regarding the availability of services and facilities.

Sure, the SU could do more for Irish, but it could do more for a lot of other things and in all honesty, having spent a long time campaigning for Irish in the SU its something I probably wouldn't consider doing again by the attitudes seen here and on facebook.

'The SU pumped loads of money into the NuBar so why can't they for Irish?' seems to sum up alot of the responses to the 'wheres the money going to come from' questions but for the best of my knowledge, not a penny of SU money went into the bar.

Irish Officer on executive? I'd personally argue Accomodation Officer could use that promotion quicker than Irish, as could the Nursing Officer. Both of those positions would be well deserving of an upgrade before I'd consider Irish Officer.

In short, this can go on for ever but realistically its become a militant rabble on both sides. The SU could do more for Irish, but it could do more for a lot of other things too and demanding that the union do *everything* for Irish is just insane.

T'is a shame, credibility decreases as angry rabble increases

Pygmalion · 06-05-2010 08:24PM

Noodleworm wrote: »

more realistically this says 40% of of Irish people (ages 3 and up) have some Irish, probably that taught in your average school.

The bit you quoted yourself wrote:

regard themselves as competent Irish speakers.

If what you're saying is true then 40% of the population don't understand the word "competent".

Actually that could be true, never mind.

maitiu · 07-05-2010 01:22AM

Attol wrote: »

At this stage I think the campaigners for this are just not interested in anyone else's views. I personally have no issue with Irish on campus but I don't agree with all your demands. Branding myself and everyone else who hasn't jumped on this bandwagon of militism as "anti-Irish" just highlights this. By that logic we could brand you all as "anti-English". None of you are interested in anyone else's views and just want to rant and act like an oppressed minority.

I liked the idea of Cumann Gaelach and learning a bit more Irish but after seeing how the chair behaves I have absolutely no interest in having anything to do with the society or any other people who are playing the victim part here. You had a chance to make a decent, mature campaign. Instead you chose the throwing your toys out of the pram approach and lost a lot of support from people who otherwise would have supported your campaign.

The campaigners are very interested in every else's views - why do you think they take the time to voice themselves on this? I fail to see how this is militism. The term "anti-Irish" is used to as the opposite of 'pro-Irish' which was used as in 'pro-Irish mob'. None of the campaigners are 'anti-English' - not a word has been said about English. Personally, I am 'pro' just about any language!

You refer to the chair of the Cumann Gaelach and how she behaves. How exactly does she behave? I haven't seen her put single toe out of line and have nothing but praise for her. Please tell me what exactly she has done wrong.

Attol · 07-05-2010 01:30AM

maitiu wrote: »

You refer to the chair of the Cumann Gaelach and how she behaves. How exactly does she behave? I haven't seen her put single toe out of line and have nothing but praise for her. Please tell me what exactly she has done wrong.

Didn't some David person declare themselves chair of the soc on that Facebook page?

"David Butler
Cathaoirleach An Cumann Gaelach DCU"

By getting themselves involved in this campaign they've instantly made themselves very unpopular tbh.

What is this???

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