What is this???

Insulting_Bitch

Could someone kindly translate?

I get the feeling that people are angry but I cannot figure out why...and the English part in the info explains nothing.

lil_cain

The pro Irish mob want us to waste more money and time on their language. Their demands are in English towards the end.

phasers

What is all this "demand" crap?

I demand that DCU recognise Klingon as a language, and provide representatives as such.

Cy_Revenant

Strange how they're condemning a SU who aren't even a week in the job.

g5fd6ow0hseima

I admire their 'lets start a facebook page' style militancy, but sadly, nobody cares.

Stop flogging a dead horse.

phantom_lord

such nonsense, it would be such a waste of time and resources to give in to those demands, particularly when only such a tiny minority of people care about that issue.

Pygmalion

Have to say I lolled at "Coláiste gan teanga, coláiste gan anam....."

Noodleworm

Its nice that people have their own little community but they have to realise that student unions have TONS of demands. and responsibilities.

Are the Irish speakers having difficulty reading things in English? I doubt it.

Its unfortunate that Irish is not taught well enough for most of us to get a good grasp of it while we're young but having everything in Irish would be a novelty, rather than a necessity. really, who's read the SU constitution in English? let alone- as gaeilge
Also just another way of alienating our huge amount of foreign students.

From looking at that facebook group, all the people who speak Irish are complaining that their not speaking Irish???
Do they want the SU to force us to speak it?
All im getting from this is that all these people are too scared to be different and aren't gonna speak Irish unless someone else does first,
its kinda childish.

well thats my opinion...

adamski8

Try google translate.
http://translate.google.ie/?tab=mT#ga|en|Seo%20gr%C3%BApa%20at%C3%A1%20ag%20iarraidh%20aird%20a%20tarraingt%20ar%20an%20easpa%20ionada%C3%ADocht%20a%20deanann%20Aontas%20na%20Mac%20L%C3%A9inn%20ar%20mic%20l%C3%A9inn%20le%20Gaeilge%20in%20OCBAC.%0A%0ADar%20leis%20an%20mbunreacht%20reatha%20at%C3%A1%20acu%20%28doicm%C3%A9id%20nach%20bhfuil%20ar%20f%C3%A1il%20i%20nGaeilge%20mar%20a%20tharla%C3%ADonn%20s%C3%A9%29%20t%C3%A1%20dualgas%20bunreacht%C3%BAil%20ar%20an%20Aontas
But its in english is you click "read more" under information on the left

GLaDOS

Yeah, the university will crumble without enough people speaking Irish...

Garseys

Doesn't DCU have a higher percentage of International Students than Fiontar Students?:pac:

and just so you know I do agree with what the guys are doing, but there are far more important positions lacking on the SU Exec than the Irish Officer.(Nursing Officer for example)

Cy_Revenant

Garseys wrote: »

Doesn't DCU have a higher percentage of International Students than Fiontar Students?:pac:

and just so you know I do agree with what the guys are doing, but there are far more important positions lacking on the SU Exec than the Irish Officer.(Nursing Officer for example)

Clearly we need to make the SU constituion available in Japanese.

Green Hand Guy

This is really getting ridiculous. First they had that girl run for SPC with her ridiculous "make every society do an Irish speaking event" platform (which, by the way, but be the equivalent of a drama person running on the platform that every society would have to put on a play) and, thankfully, she didn't get on. Now they're trying to force their way onto the SU.

What these people seem to fail to grasp entirely is that the majority of DCU students don't want to speak Irish. In fact, a large percentage aren't even from Ireland. Should we have French Officers or German Officers on the SU too?

By all means, speak your language all you want, but why on earth would you need any of these demands? What exactly would they give you? Clearly you already speak the language, and you have a society for people who want to speak the language. Can't you just be content that the rest of us don't want to learn Irish and leave us alone?

gizmo

You demand? You can **** right off. :mad:

The arrogance and sense of entitlement of these people is absolutely unreal. How about this, why don't you do what every other society does when they want to build up support - work WITH the other clubs and societies in order to run events which people can enjoy. Let people see the fun side of the lanugage, teach them of it's importance in retaining a sense of Irish heritage and possibly organise classes so people can learn. God knows most people have had their fair share of horribly taught Irish classes over the years so why don't you buck the trend and increase the popularity of it by doing it correctly?

But no, instead we get the usual vitriolic rubbish...

If that is not available we would prefer if our money was spent elsewhere.

How about the majority of the rest of us who would like to see University funds spent on things that the entire student body can take advantage of?

We demand a presence of the Irish language in the Union's events.

Nice one, so now you're putting everyone else at a disadvantage?

I do love this quote from the incoming Chair of the society...

The Cumann Gaelach is not able to work by themsleves in promoting the language on campus...

Which begs the question, why not?

Also, change your ****ing logo please, no one will take you seriously with that antagonist **** at the front of your campaign.

Lolarious. :pac:

Such pointless demands.

Garseys

Cy_Revenant wrote: »

Clearly we need to make the SU constituion available in Japanese.

*starts up facebook campaign*

public_enemy

That logo is amazing.

Gothamite

No use bitching about it here though, guys. My advice to you all is to voice your opinions on the actual page.

Personally, I believe some of the things they are 'demanding' are quite fair, particularly the things the Union is legally obliged by the Official Languages Act and the Universities Act to provide to them...i.e.:

"3. We demand a visible presence of the Irish Language in the Union's publicity.

4. We demand a presence of the Irish language in the Union's events.

5. We demand that the Union make sure that the University fulfill their legislative duties to Irish according to the Universities Act 1997"

I do also believe that they are going about this entirely the wrong way. Blaming Alan for making things "Personal" is a silly thing to do, if you're going to make childish logos and 'demands' like that that are just going to antagonise everyone and belittle the work the Union has done. They're acting like they were making this lovely, fluffy little point about fairness and then Alan Keegan came along and started shouting at them and attacking Daithí, which is far from what actually happened.

Everyone is at fault a bit here, Alan's even said that himself. I truly believe that an understandable breakdown of communications occurred. Things are such a mess at the moment with the piss-poor constitution and the hodge-podge of the exec positions, that there are bigger, more serious concerns than the presence of the Irish language on Campus. But the language's presence is a very important one. It's our national language and our national culture and that needs to be strengthened and those concerned are absolutely right to speak up.

If nothing else though, this controversy will really get things moving where the language on campus is concerned. Could a mod please change the title of this thread?

naturejinx

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask that services and materials are available in both of the country's recognised official language.

And it's not just Fiontar students who speak Irish on campus, I speak Irish more than I would speak English, and I'm not a Fiontar student, so the number of Fiontar students as compared to the number of international students really shouldn't come in to it.

daltonj7

Green Hand Guy wrote: »

This is really getting ridiculous. First they had that girl run for SPC with her ridiculous "make every society do an Irish speaking event" platform (which, by the way, but be the equivalent of a drama person running on the platform that every society would have to put on a play) and, thankfully, she didn't get on. Now they're trying to force their way onto the SU.

What these people seem to fail to grasp entirely is that the majority of DCU students don't want to speak Irish. In fact, a large percentage aren't even from Ireland. Should we have French Officers or German Officers on the SU too?

By all means, speak your language all you want, but why on earth would you need any of these demands? What exactly would they give you? Clearly you already speak the language, and you have a society for people who want to speak the language. Can't you just be content that the rest of us don't want to learn Irish and leave us alone?

I must say I thought it quite refreshing that girl, who is an active member of MPS, Drama and Music to the best of my knowledge, put herself forward on for the common good. She never said she wanted to make every society do an Irish event so I would appreciate if you didn't spread such slander, she said that she wished to be available to increase the presence of Irish language in the SPC( something they themselves seem to have done by recently adopting a bi-lingual poster funding policy for all societies) and to aid all willing societies who could put on relevant events through Irish or related to Irish for example Drama or Debate who could feasibly incorporate Irish language events into their timetables, and both societies to my knowledge have expressed such interests.

Nobody is trying to force the Irish language on anybody, this campaign as I see it is about adequate representation for Irish speakers in the Union. We are currently the only University Union in the country without an Exec. Officer for Irish. What makes DCUSU so different they don't need to represent these students? And I think that the Facebook group has served its point in providing a platform for people to voice there opinion. Also with 400 odd members at the time of writing, does this not show that there is a sizeable amount of people who feel they aren't being represented?

Attol

i did higher level irish for 6 years and i still cant speak fluently. the su need to get the fingers out and start doing something to save our language!

This is one of the few posts from that Facebook page that I could understand as my Irish is pretty useless but isn't that kinda the person's own fault? It's not the SU's fault he didn't pay attention in school/his school didn't teach him Irish. He could have learned it by himself in his own time as well if he wasn't happy with the level of education he received in school. Shouldn't this passion be targetted at the schools that are supposed to teach people Irish?

I've no problem whatsoever with Irish being promoted and encouraged etc. but I think a lot of people are a bit misguided and aggressive about the whole issue. It isn't the SU's fault that everyone can't speak perfect Irish. To be honest, if anything this aggression makes me want to stay further away from an Cumann Gaelach etc.

Green Hand Guy

daltonj7 wrote: »

Nobody is trying to force the Irish language on anybody

Could have fooled me. Also, I'm fairly certain the girl said she would make it her goal to have every society do at least one event through Irish, which really isn't the SPC's mandate.

Back on topic though, this campaign seems extremely childish and overly aggressive. I've never had any particular issue with Cumann Gaelach before, but I've grown a distinct dislike for them recently. If they're going to keep this up they're not going to have an easy time finding allies.

Tiroskan

Y'know the thing that really gets me about that group? There's 439 members, as of writing, the vast majority of whom I'll assume attend DCU. And how many people are members of An Cumann Gaelach and participate in events?

If they cared that much they'd care all the time

maitiu

Firstly I would like to address the coarse language in the first answer to this post: 'the pro Irish mob'. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a 'pro Irish mob'. Would you describe the gay rights movement as a 'pro-gay mob'? Or the anti-racist campaign as a 'pro-multicultural mob'? There is no annual 'Gaeilge & Proud March', there are few registered charities campaigned on behalf of the minority language. Please keep within reality when choosing your words. You also claim it is a waste of money. Perhaps this is so to you, personally, but it is not the case for many people. Who is to decide what is a waste of money? Is the recycling campaign a waste of money? To me, perhaps, who won't live long enough to truly reap the benefits. Is the women's rights movement a waste of money? To me, perhaps, who will never be a woman. Everything you spend money on can be deemed a waste; best used on some other cause, but equally everything can be deemed the best use possible of funds. Your final point is that the demands are in English at the very end; well this is just to illustrate that bilinguilism is possible and that the organisers of the campaign are not elitist Gaeilgeoirí who want to abolish English in the university. Irish and English can exist together, as stated in the constitution of the country; the campaigners just want that recognised and enforced. Without the English, the campaign would be lost on Irish-speakers, who already know what the problems are.
The next point I wish to address is the 'recognise Klingon as a language'. This is perfectly acceptable, once the EU and State recognise it as an official language, a decent number of people speak it as a native language and leaners who speak it fluently appear and the demand arises.
Another user accuses the campaigners of 'condemning an SU not even a week in the job'. Unfortunately the current SU have been in the job for the past academic year. President Keegan and his Council are still the Union leaders until the first of June. Perhaps the Council-Elect will be more understanding.
Below that there is the downright silly statement that 'no one cares' the phenonemal support gathered over the past six days on Facebook is glaring evidence against that idea. As I type 435 people 'like' the group.
Yet another person claims that the campaign is 'alienating our foreign students'. I really struggle to comprehend this; again the campaigners are not demanding the abolition of English. They simply want Irish to be officially recognised. If a German student went to France, they would be expected to understand French. They may have fluent English but that is no help in a country were the official language is French. To those who don't wish to bother learning the language, the bilinguist approach will not affect them. After all it has been done in Latin America, Belguim and Switzerland. Why can't it be accepted in an Irish university? The same poster claims that all the campaigners are scared to speak Irish until someone else does. This is simply not the case, they are begging for 'someone else' to speak Irish with them, to conduct their day to day business through the medium of the language. Surely the hundreds of posts on the page which are written in Irish testify to the lack of embarrassment among the speakers?
Further along the list of responses my eye falls upon the cry that there are more international students than Fiontar students in the university. What exactly was the point that this statement makes? Is it written in stone that only students studying a Fiontar course have permission to speak Irish? Does Fiontar have the rights to the language? I think not, Irish belongs to Ireland and her speakers. There are thousands of students in DCU who hail from Gaeltacht areas or who were raised with the language outside of the official Gaeltachts. These people have as much right for their language to be recognised and to conduct their lives through it as the students of Fiontar or SALIS. The poster also claims that a nursing officer is more important, again I puzzle at this. I am not a nurse, why would a nursing officer be important to me? If the nurses feel strongly about the cause, then campaign for it! Surely with a nursing school as large as the one in DCU the support can be mustered?
Another poster claims that the constitution be made available in Japanese. Much like the Klingon request, I agree completely; once the EU and State recognises the language as an official language, a decent number of native speakers and fluent learners appear and the demand arises.
In the final few posts an onslaught of accusations occurs. As a previous poster has already defended the girl in question, I'll not waste my time with that. However, to claim that asking for societies to provide and event in Irish is hardly the same as asking for societies to perform a play. As language is a medium for communicaton, it has a part to play in every society - all societies must communicate (internally and externally). I am certain that most societies in DCU have some Irish speakers who would delight in the opportunity to take part in an even through the medium of Irish. Drawing on another quote from the same poster 'already a society for speakers of the language', alas; this is not true. The Cumann Gaelach is for people who wish to appreciate all aspects of Gaelic culture - it is not the Cumann Gaeilge. The vast majority of the members are not fluent Irish speakers, but all share an interest in the culture of Ireland and other Gaelic countries. This is why there is an annual trip to the likes of Scotland, Brittany, Wales and similar places. Should an Irish speaker, attending an Irish university, with an interest in drama not have the opportunity to act in an Irish language drama? With assistance from the experienced members of Drama Soc to guide them? Surely so.
My own final points deal with the most recent post I have seen. The poster claims that the Cumann Gaelach does not work with other societies to promote the language. This is untrue, it is quite the opposite - during the academic year of 09/10 the Cumann Gaelach in DCU tried on numerous occasions to get in contact with members of Drama Soc to help stage a play in Irish. They also contacted the Music Soc to host an Open Mic Night in Irish. As well as this the MPS were contacted with regard to making a promotional video for Seachtain na Gaeilge. The Cumann Gaelach go above and beyond the call of duty. The same poster laments the education system in Ireland and criticises the Cumann Gaelach for not helping the situation and making classes available. Once again the poster is misinformed. For the academic year of 09/10 the Cumann Gaelach in DCU made Irish classes, at three levels; beginner, intermediate and advanced, available to the students of DCU free of charge. The lessons were, for the most part, unless postponed a day to accomodate the teacher held on monday evenings from 6pm until 9pm. The Cumann Gaelach also hopes to make the classes available during the academic year of 10/11.
The poster also claims that keeping to a bilinguil policy, both English and Irish, puts everyone else at a disadvantage. The only people this policy would marginalise are those who have come to the country without any knowledge of either language. Surely someone who would do that deserves little sympathy? If you go to Italy to study at an Italian university, surely you would learn how to ask for the toilet at least?
Most finally; the poster 'begs the question' why can't the Cumann Gaelach promote the language on it's own? Simply because that is not why the Cumann Gaelach is there. Irish is the national language of the country; one should not have to pay a €4 registration fee at the start of the year to use one's national tongue. The Cumann Gaelach and Fiontar are both bodies who use the language on a day to day basis, but at the end of the day they do not own or govern it. The Irish language on campus belongs to the students on campus.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Green Hand Guy wrote: »

Back on topic though, this campaign seems extremely childish and overly aggressive. I've never had any particular issue with Cumann Gaelach before, but I've grown a distinct dislike for them recently. If they're going to keep this up they're not going to have an easy time finding allies.

Perhaps this is the start of the Welsh style militancy within the Irish language movement....

batman007

First and foremost, I am not a Fiontar student yet I am very passionate about the language. I wish to address a number of points that have been made on this thread.

1) Irish is OUR language and I quote Article 8 of Bunreacht na hEireann "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language."
Therefore we have the right to services and activities through the medium of Irish.

2)There have been no actual attacks on the incoming Executive, just questions over the obvious lack of action by this years Executive.

3)I notice that a number of people on this thread have brought up the point that no-one has any interest in the Irish language. This point is clearly meaningless when you look at the number of members the facebook page has gathered in such a short period of time, 416 the last time i checked.

4)Quite a few people have also mentioned that there are more international students in DCU than Irish speakers. These students come to Ireland not only to further their studies but also to immerse themselves in the Irish culture. On the facebook page there are comments from international students who were shocked and appalled on their arrival to discover that there was such little interest in our native language. (Also see pt. 7). I have also talked to students in my class who have expressed such opinions. If I went on Erasmus or Intra abroad I would expect the people to speak their national language, it surely is no different for sudents arriving in Ireland?

5) DCU is the only university in Ireland without a sitting Irish Officer on the executive - this is an obvious inequality. It is key for every college to have one to ensure promotion of the language. It is unfair to ask the Cumann Gaelach to be the only body on campus that specificaly aims to advance it.

6)Contrary to some opinions, there have been numerous endeavours to engage in inter-societal activities by the Cumann Gaelach, some societies have been more receptive than others. Next year the cumann aims to increase co-operation and at this years AGM created a new position, inter-societal officer.

7)I would also like to point out that the Cumann does in fact provide weekly irish classes catering for all levels. It has also been a noticeable trend that many students that turn up to these classes are actually international students looking to make the most of their experience in Ireland.

I hope this clears any ambiguity that some people on this thread seem to suffer from.

g5fd6ow0hseima

batman007 wrote: »

First and foremost, I am not a Fiontar student yet I am very passionate about the language. I wish to address a number of points that have been made on this thread.

batman007 wrote: »

1) Irish is OUR language and I quote Article 8 of Bunreacht na hEireann "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language."
Therefore we have the right to services and activities through the medium of Irish.

The Irish constitution of 1937 also recognises the special position of the Catholic Church. Maybe I have similar grounds to campaign for a crucifix in every lecture hall.

batman007 wrote: »

2)There have been no actual attacks on the incoming Executive, just questions over the obvious lack of action by this years Executive.

Im unaware of any pressure put on them throughout the year. Please let me know what campaigns there were

batman007 wrote: »

3)I notice that a number of people on this thread have brought up the point that no-one has any interest in the Irish language. This point is clearly meaningless when you look at the number of members the facebook page has gathered in such a short period of time, 416 the last time i checked.

People join too many facebook groups

batman007 wrote: »

4)Quite a few people have also mentioned that there are more international students in DCU than Irish speakers. These students come to Ireland not only to further their studies but also to immerse themselves in the Irish culture. On the facebook page there are comments from international students who were shocked and appalled on their arrival to discover that there was such little interest in our native language. (Also see pt. 7). I have also talked to students in my class who have expressed such opinions. If I went on Erasmus or Intra abroad I would expect the people to speak their national language, it surely is no different for sudents arriving in Ireland?

It costs €7.

batman007 wrote: »

5) DCU is the only university in Ireland without a sitting Irish Officer on the executive - this is an obvious inequality. It is key for every college to have one to ensure promotion of the language. It is unfair to ask the Cumann Gaelach to be the only body on campus that specificaly aims to advance it.

Yeah, shouldnt the college begin to advance cricket? Given the recent results in the last world cup n' all

batman007 wrote: »

6)Contrary to some opinions, there have been numerous endeavours to engage in inter-societal activities by the Cumann Gaelach, some societies have been more receptive than others. Next year the cumann aims to increase co-operation and at this years AGM created a new position, inter-societal officer.

Some positivity

batman007 wrote: »

7)I would also like to point out that the Cumann does in fact provide weekly irish classes catering for all levels. It has also been a noticeable trend that many students that turn up to these classes are actually international students looking to make the most of their experience in Ireland.

And what? Should the students union operate classes along with these?

batman007 wrote: »

I hope this clears any ambiguity that some people on this thread seem to suffer from.

Attol

Would it not make more sense to question why the schools are failing at educating people in Irish though? It's not the job of the SU to make people learn a language.

If enough people campaigned to the people who actually have power (whoever decides on the curriculum or whatever) then there would be a chance of actually making a real difference. If people were used to speaking Irish from a young age they'd be more likely to keep it up imo.

GLaDOS

Maitiu, if you really want people to listen to you, learn how to use paragraphs

maitiu

Sorry, something weird happened there. I tabbed it all in but when it posted it aligned everything to the left...Sorry again.

g5fd6ow0hseima

maitiu wrote: »

Sorry, something weird happened there. I tabbed it all in but when it posted it aligned everything to the left...Sorry again.

Edit it?

lil_cain

batman007 wrote: »

First and foremost, I am not a Fiontar student yet I am very passionate about the language. I wish to address a number of points that have been made on this thread.

1) Irish is OUR language and I quote Article 8 of Bunreacht na hEireann "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language."
Therefore we have the right to services and activities through the medium of Irish.

Yours, maybe. It certainly isn't mine. And the Irish constitution has an awful lot of bollocks in it. As near as I can see, the place of the Irish language falls right beside Article 41.2 in terms of idiocy that's best ignored. And as it's not a government body, I see no reason why the idiocy in our state's constitution places any demands on the Students' Union.

batman007 wrote: »

3)I notice that a number of people on this thread have brought up the point that no-one has any interest in the Irish language. This point is clearly meaningless when you look at the number of members the facebook page has gathered in such a short period of time, 416 the last time i checked

416 out of 8,000 or so. The average group taking the piss out of people gets more people joining.

batman007 wrote: »

4)Quite a few people have also mentioned that there are more international students in DCU than Irish speakers. These students come to Ireland not only to further their studies but also to immerse themselves in the Irish culture. On the facebook page there are comments from international students who were shocked and appalled on their arrival to discover that there was such little interest in our native language. (Also see pt. 7). I have also talked to students in my class who have expressed such opinions. If I went on Erasmus or Intra abroad I would expect the people to speak their national language, it surely is no different for sudents arriving in Ireland?

Irish isn't our national language. Hasn't been for quite some time. If it was, this discussion would be going on as gaeilge. The fact that its not should tell you something about the relative claims of Irish and English to being our national language.

batman007 wrote: »

5) DCU is the only university in Ireland without a sitting Irish Officer on the executive - this is an obvious inequality. It is key for every college to have one to ensure promotion of the language. It is unfair to ask the Cumann Gaelach to be the only body on campus that specificaly aims to advance it.

Why? Redbrick's the only body on campus campaigning to improve most students' IT skills, and that's something actually useful. Why should I contribute to something that I frankly couldn't care less about like the status of the Irish language?

batman007 wrote: »

7)I would also like to point out that the Cumann does in fact provide weekly irish classes catering for all levels. It has also been a noticeable trend that many students that turn up to these classes are actually international students looking to make the most of their experience in Ireland.

Maybe you should focus on getting more people to those classes, rather than asking for ridiculous posts on the SU. The language is either a living vibrant one, in which case it won't need dedicated SU representatives to stand up for it, or it isn't, in which case a post on the SU is ridiculous pandering.

Diarmsquid

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

The Irish constitution of 1937 also recognises the special position of the Catholic Church. Maybe I have similar grounds to campaign for a crucifix in every lecture hall.

Not since the 1970's it doesn't.

batman007

See link in response to some queries raised, which are addressed by another student:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/topic.php?uid=115365665160919&topic=41

Jill.

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Maitiu, if you really want people to listen to you, learn how to use paragraphs

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Edit it?

Wow. Every word of Maitiú's post is true so you resort to the paragraphing as a distraction.

This campaign is for the benifit of people who speak Irish, those who have interest in Irish, and those who think it's worth their while integrating it into their college life-If that's not what you're about then why concern yourself with it at all? If you think it's a waste of money, then why make it a waste of your time by also giving out about it?

There is no denying that people are passionate about the language. There would be no basis for a campaign otherwise. Contrary to popular beleif, we are not doing this for the good of our health-It's a cause we beleive in.

And also I'm curious as to what exactly these "things that the entire student body can take advantage of" that people seem to think money could be better spent on? If there are no suggestions, then there is no argument to be made here.

lil_cain

Jill. wrote: »

Wow. Every word of Maitiú's post is true so you resort to the paragraphing as a distraction.

This campaign is for the benifit of people who speak Irish, those who have interest in Irish, and those who think it's worth their while integrating it into their college life-If that's not what you're about then why concern yourself with it at all? If you think it's a waste of money, then why make it a waste of your time by also giving out about it?

There is no denying that people are passionate about the language. There would be no basis for a campaign otherwise. Contrary to popular beleif, we are not doing this for the good of our health-It's a cause we beleive in.

And also I'm curious as to what exactly these "things that the entire student body can take advantage of" that people seem to think money could be better spent on? If there are no suggestions, then there is no argument to be made here.

The things its being spent on currently? Unless you have a magic way to create money?

GLaDOS

Jill. wrote: »

Wow. Every word of Maitiú's post is true so you resort to the paragraphing as a distraction.

I've no idea if it was true, I've no interest in reading a giant wall of text

vinnyb

lil_cain wrote: »

Yours, maybe. It certainly isn't mine. And the Irish constitution has an awful lot of bollocks in it. As near as I can see, the place of the Irish language falls right beside Article 41.2 in terms of idiocy that's best ignored. And as it's not a government body, I see no reason why the idiocy in our state's constitution places any demands on the Students' Union.

lil_cain wrote: »

If you have a problem with the Irish constitution and you feel passionately about it, lobbying your local TDs, is that not meant to be how democracy works, they are a vehicle with which to represent your views. Just as an Irish Officer should be a vehicle to represent Irish speakers here in DCU?

And here is a tidy little piece from a recently published Government Strategy in relation to Irish which was published in the last 6 months

There is an existing statutory framework for third level education in Irish, including the obligation on the HEA under the Higher Education Act 1971 to “bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of these aims”. This is further strengthened in section 12 of the Universities Act 1997, which provides that the objectives of all universities include ‘[promotion of] the official languages of the State, with special regard to the preservation, promotion and use of the Irish language and the preservation and promotion of the distinctive cultures of Ireland’.

Surely this demonstrates that there is an onus on the Su to ensure that University strives towards fufilling this legislation to the best of their ability?

lil_cain wrote: »

416 out of 8,000 or so. The average group taking the piss out of people gets more people joining.

lil_cain wrote: »

Ha nice to see a wise guy lets put it into context, thats 416 who have been proactive and expressed an interest in being represented by the union, that is over double the 203 from the famed Faculty of Engineering and Computing who voted for their faculty covenor in the recent SU elections, and that is a Faculty that has 13.4% of the student body? Put your figures in a relevant context, not everyone identifies with the Union, so 416 out of 1924 valid polls for presidental election is perhaps more relevant, thats over 20%.

lil_cain wrote: »

Irish isn't our national language. Hasn't been for quite some time. If it was, this discussion would be going on as gaeilge. The fact that its not should tell you something about the relative claims of Irish and English to being our national language.

lil_cain wrote: »

Excellent to see a good grasp of the constitution there, for many people on this page, if you are happy to sit here and proclaim English your national language that is your choice, but just like we try to be as welcoming as possible by adopting a fully bi-lingual policy, I would expect you to not try enfore your neo-colonial attitude on others in DCU who support our culture and heritage, having an Irish Officer on DCU will not cost you anything, it will not in any way take from your student experience, why are you so against Irish speakers getting adequate representation?

lil_cain wrote: »

Why? Redbrick's the only body on campus campaigning to improve most students' IT skills, and that's something actually useful. Why should I contribute to something that I frankly couldn't care less about like the status of the Irish language?

lil_cain wrote: »

I was under the impression that improving IT skills falls under the academic learning outcomes of a lot of courses and if it falls outside I thought ISS were there to support that sort of thing?

The SU have recognised that Irish needs a bigger prescene in ths SU so instead of being counter productive and knocking a language which I understand is always going to be divisive due to the failings of the education system could you please be counter productive and voice how you feel Irish can be taken forward? If you feel it is a waste of money, come up with cost effective ways of bringing it forward. Please stop blaming Irish speakers who have gone to the time and expense of learning the language for the shambles that is the education system and work with them for the benefit of our national heritage, culture and identity.

Ní neart go chur le chéile (Strength is in Unity)

P.S. For those unconvinced about the value of Irish I suggest you look at the works of a former DCU Professor Fionbar Ó Brolcháin , who has written extensively on the economic benefits of cultural capital.

BuyMeEggs

Here we go, thats right - lets all take the piss out of Irish, sure afterall, it is only

a dead horse.

Wrong. How can Irish be an equine animal thats passed away, when you see the support this campaign has? Irish is not to be forced on people. But, look around you. You are in the land of leprechauns and Guinness. Yes, it is called Ireland, and we speak English and Irish. Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.


Oh, but thats not the SU's job? Oh right. So what exactly is the SU's job?........... The only thing I have seen the SU do is spend a copious amount of money in the NuBar.


This is getting out of hand. Irish is not a command, or a demand - it is a right and a privilege. Why doesn't DCU want to show some pride in it's own Irish culture? We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

Attol

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.

Nobody is trying to stop anyone speaking Irish on campus. Of course they have the right to speak it.

You have to stop blaming the SU though. It's not their fault everyone can't speak Irish. The anti SU thing on Facebook is ridiculous.

Green Hand Guy

vinnyb wrote: »

If you feel it is a waste of money, come up with cost effective ways of bringing it forward. Please stop blaming Irish speakers who have gone to the time and expense of learning the language for the shambles that is the education system and work with them for the benefit of our national heritage, culture and identity.

I think the entire idea of a cultural identity is a bit silly. Why should anyone live a particular way just because the people before them chose to?

Also, you seem to make it sound like we'd all love to run around speaking Irish if it wasn't for that damn educational system. Bollox! It could be taught by the greatest teacher in the world in the most effective way possible and I still probably wouldn't speak it. Not because I've been failed, but because I just don't want to. I think the attitude that I'm not bilingual because of some education system failing is very condescending and disrespectful.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

Again, not my native language. Didn't speak a word of it before school, haven't spoke a word since. Doesn't make me any less Irish than any other person.

Anyway, all of that was a little off topic. I have no problem with people who want to speak Irish speaking it, but I think starting a facebook page whose picture is the SU Logo with a big red X through it and whose contents are a list of demands comes across as overly heavy-handed and aggressive. To say that it isn't an attack on the SU is just laughable.

lil_cain

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Here we go, thats right - lets all take the piss out of Irish, sure afterall, it is only



Wrong. How can Irish be an equine animal thats passed away, when you see the support this campaign has? Irish is not to be forced on people. But, look around you. You are in the land of leprechauns and Guinness. Yes, it is called Ireland, and we speak English and Irish. Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.

snip

This is getting out of hand. Irish is not a command, or a demand - it is a right and a privilege. Why doesn't DCU want to show some pride in it's own Irish culture? We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

This is my issue. Irish isn't my native language. I was born here, and I'm as Irish as they come. But I was raised through English, my parents were raised through English, and their parents were raised through English. I'd be shocked if that was not true for the majority of students in DCU. As such the Irish language is no longer, by own culture, nor that of a very large number of the students DCU SU represents. You may speak both Irish and English, but I certainly don't, and I fail to see why your knowledge of a minority language should entitle you to more support than I get, especially given that that knowledge is in itself and advantage, not something you're likely to suffer discrimination on the basis of, nor something that's going to be anything other than an advantage for you in later life.

Garseys

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Here we go, thats right - lets all take the piss out of Irish, sure afterall, it is only



Wrong. How can Irish be an equine animal thats passed away, when you see the support this campaign has? Irish is not to be forced on people. But, look around you. You are in the land of leprechauns and Guinness. Yes, it is called Ireland, and we speak English and Irish. Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.


Oh, but thats not the SU's job? Oh right. So what exactly is the SU's job?........... The only thing I have seen the SU do is spend a copious amount of money in the NuBar.


This is getting out of hand. Irish is not a command, or a demand - it is a right and a privilege. Why doesn't DCU want to show some pride in it's own Irish culture? We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

But your issues with the SU are limited though, There is only so much they can do. Ultimately, This comes down to the University itself. The SU can lobby the powers that be and impliment a bilingual policy on documents and such and promote and run a few Irish events, but not much else,

(btw I'd like to point out that the dcu.ie website is not available in Irish as has to be translated by google )

And also I understand where that Girl that ran for SPC was coming from but at the end of the day, It's not the SPC's job to push for more Irish Events in societies. That would be like myself saying "I'm involved in X society and I want all societies to do a number of X events a year". and honestly as someone who had a vote at that meeting, thats how it came across.

The SPC's aims and roles as stated in their constitution

Aim:

1. To allocate funds among societies in an efficient, fair and democratic manner.
2. To facilitate the creation and growth of societies, through the provision of appropriate training and support, and to advise them of their needs.
3. To oversee the auditing of the society accounts.
4. To promote society work and represent the interests of societies locally, nationally and internationally.
5. To promote society involvement as a mechanism for extra-curricular personal development

Just wanted to make sure that was clear;)


Btw can I ask a question to those who are lobbying for the changes, Do you feel that the Irish Officer should sit on the Executive and is it more important than the likes of the Clubs and Socs Officer and Equality Officer?

vinnyb

Attol wrote: »

Nobody is trying to stop anyone speaking Irish on campus. Of course they have the right to speak it.

You have to stop blaming the SU though. It's not their fault everyone can't speak Irish. The anti SU thing on Facebook is ridiculous.

The campaign is not and never has been an anti-SU campaign, actually I would see it more as a campaign which seeks to strengthen the SU by acting as a catalyst to a reform which will allow them to represent a large number DCU students more efficiently.

While the campaign soured yesterday, people all sides have endeavored to move forward and ensure that the issue at hand gets the attention it deserves, starting with a meeting between the co-ordinators of this campaign, incoming and outgoing executive members and external experts on the role of Irish in Student Unions. This meeting is due to take early next week and I encourage anyone who has an interest to forward on your opinions to either the co-ordinators of the campaign or any of the sabbats, it doesn't matter whether they are pro-Irish or anti-Irish, if you feel passionate about the subject use your voice to air your opinions in a constructive manner

vinnyb

Garseys wrote: »

But your issues with the SU are limited though, There is only so much they can do. Ultimately, This comes down to the University itself. The SU can lobby the powers that be and impliment a bilingual policy on documents and such and promote and run a few Irish events, but not much else,

(btw I'd like to point out that the dcu.ie website is not available in Irish as has to be translated by google )

And also I understand where that Girl that ran for SPC was coming from but at the end of the day, It's not the SPC's job to push for more Irish Events in societies. That would be like myself saying "I'm involved in X society and I want all societies to do a number of X events a year". and honestly as someone who had a vote at that meeting, thats how it came across.

The SPC's aims and roles as stated in their constitution


[/LIST]
Just wanted to make sure that was clear;)


Btw can I ask a question to those who are lobbying for the changes, Do you feel that an Irish Officer should sit on the Executive and is it more important than the likes of the Clubs and Socs Officer and Equality Officer?

Just as a note here, you have quoted the aims of the SPC as stated in their constitution, it is interesting to note that they don't specify that this is to be done solely through the medium of the English??

I would also like to draw your attention to this which was posted on the wall of the Facebook campaign I think it makes interesting reading

Irish shouldn’t only fall into the hands of the Cumann Gaelach in DCU. We are an Irish society, not a Drama Society, a Dance Society, a Debating Society or a GAA Club for that matter. There are some great societies nationwide servicing specific interests through the Irish Language for example in UCD where the Irish Language Drama Society has 200 more members than the English one in DCU!!! In some peoples ideal world you could found an Irish society for the aforementioned societies in DCU which operate through the medium of Irish. However, this would be a great waste of resources, also why as Irish speakers do we have to marginalise ourselves by removing ourselves from larger, more vibrant societies just to pursue our interests through the Irish language? Why can’t relevant societies strive to create vibrant bi-lingual environments. Any Irish Officer in DCU should strive to ensure that all relevant societies are given adequate incentive and support to ensure that they strive to develop their bi-lingual policies. In an ideal world the Cumann Gaelach in DCU would exist as a vibrant social society instead of the “Jack of All Trades, Master of None”.

Also I think that the SPC has recognised that Irish should be developed in societies, and have brought in the bi-lingual postering funding as already mentioned and there is also talk of introducing an award for "Biggest Cultural Contribution" at the Clubs and Socs awards ( excluding Cumann Gaelach & GAA etc.)

Green Hand Guy

vinnyb wrote: »

Just as a note here, you have quoted the aims of the SPC as stated in their constitution, it is interesting to note that they don't specify that this is to be done solely through the medium of the English??

They don't specify that they don't have to wear top hats and ride around on unicycles either. You can read a lot into what they don't specify

lil_cain

vinnyb wrote: »

If you have a problem with the Irish constitution and you feel passionately about it, lobbying your local TDs, is that not meant to be how democracy works, they are a vehicle with which to represent your views. Just as an Irish Officer should be a vehicle to represent Irish speakers here in DCU?

You're right. But the Irish provisions don't bother me most of the time, because they only affect government bodies. DCU SU is not a government body, and so should not have to deal with the constitution's more retarded bits.

And we already have plenty of officers to represent Irish speakers in DCU. The entire SU in fact. You don't need an officer specifically to promote the Irish language, in the same way homosexuals don't need a specific LGBT officer, and I don't need a colour blind officer.

vinnyb wrote: »

And here is a tidy little piece from a recently published Government Strategy in relation to Irish which was published in the last 6 months

There is an existing statutory framework for third level education in Irish, including the obligation on the HEA under the Higher Education Act 1971 to “bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of these aims”. This is further strengthened in section 12 of the Universities Act 1997, which provides that the objectives of all universities include ‘[promotion of] the official languages of the State, with special regard to the preservation, promotion and use of the Irish language and the preservation and promotion of the distinctive cultures of Ireland’.

Surely this demonstrates that there is an onus on the Su to ensure that University strives towards fufilling this legislation to the best of their ability?

Those are the University's goals. Not the SU's. The SU has (from what I can see) no pro-irish language mandate. And that should remain the same.

vinnyb wrote: »

Ha nice to see a wise guy lets put it into context, thats 416 who have been proactive and expressed an interest in being represented by the union, that is over double the 203 from the famed Faculty of Engineering and Computing who voted for their faculty covenor in the recent SU elections, and that is a Faculty that has 13.4% of the student body? Put your figures in a relevant context, not everyone identifies with the Union, so 416 out of 1924 valid polls for presidental election is perhaps more relevant, thats over 20%.

Except far more people join facebook groups than vote. Because that's something people all the time, and requires no knowledge, or forethought, and is easy to do over a far larger period of time. It doesn't even require you to be a current DCU student. So really, the two things are completely incomparable.

vinnyb wrote: »

Excellent to see a good grasp of the constitution there, for many people on this page, if you are happy to sit here and proclaim English your national language that is your choice, but just like we try to be as welcoming as possible by adopting a fully bi-lingual policy, I would expect you to not try enfore your neo-colonial attitude on others in DCU who support our culture and heritage, having an Irish Officer on DCU will not cost you anything, it will not in any way take from your student experience, why are you so against Irish speakers getting adequate representation?

It will cost something. Adding any officer costs things, in terms of making decision making more difficult, and having more people hanging around. And if they want to actually do something, it'll cost even more, since it'll mean the SU spend time they could be spending on other things.

On another point, I find your accusations of neo-colonialism horrendously offensive. I'm irish. The fact that I don't cling to the language of a tiny minority isn't a sign of neo-colonialism, or anything of the like.

vinnyb wrote: »

If you have a problem with the Irish constitution and you feel passionately about it, lobbying your local TDs, is that not meant to be how democracy works, they are a vehicle with which to represent your views. Just as an Irish Officer should be a vehicle to represent Irish speakers here in DCU?

You're right. But the Irish provisions don't bother me most of the time, because they only affect government bodies. DCU SU is not a government body, and so should not have to deal with the constitution's more retarded bits.

And we already have plenty of officers to represent Irish speakers in DCU. The entire SU in fact. You don't need an officer specifically to promote the Irish language, in the same way homosexuals don't need a specific LGBT officer, and I don't need a colour blind officer.

vinnyb wrote: »

And here is a tidy little piece from a recently published Government Strategy in relation to Irish which was published in the last 6 months

There is an existing statutory framework for third level education in Irish, including the obligation on the HEA under the Higher Education Act 1971 to “bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of these aims”. This is further strengthened in section 12 of the Universities Act 1997, which provides that the objectives of all universities include ‘[promotion of] the official languages of the State, with special regard to the preservation, promotion and use of the Irish language and the preservation and promotion of the distinctive cultures of Ireland’.

Surely this demonstrates that there is an onus on the Su to ensure that University strives towards fufilling this legislation to the best of their ability?

Those are the University's goals. Not the SU's. The SU has (from what I can see) no pro-irish language mandate. And that should remain the same.

vinnyb wrote: »

Ha nice to see a wise guy lets put it into context, thats 416 who have been proactive and expressed an interest in being represented by the union, that is over double the 203 from the famed Faculty of Engineering and Computing who voted for their faculty covenor in the recent SU elections, and that is a Faculty that has 13.4% of the student body? Put your figures in a relevant context, not everyone identifies with the Union, so 416 out of 1924 valid polls for presidental election is perhaps more relevant, thats over 20%.

Except far more people join facebook groups than vote. Because that's something people all the time, and requires no knowledge, or forethought, and is easy to do over a far larger period of time. It doesn't even require you to be a current DCU student. So really, the two things are completely incomparable.

vinnyb wrote: »

I was under the impression that improving IT skills falls under the academic learning outcomes of a lot of courses and if it falls outside I thought ISS were there to support that sort of thing?

ISS provide services. I've never seen them (and they have no role) in trying to explain any of the broader issues in IT. But hey, feel free to clutch at straws.

vinnyb wrote: »

The SU have recognised that Irish needs a bigger prescene in ths SU so instead of being counter productive and knocking a language which I understand is always going to be divisive due to the failings of the education system could you please be counter productive and voice how you feel Irish can be taken forward? If you feel it is a waste of money, come up with cost effective ways of bringing it forward. Please stop blaming Irish speakers who have gone to the time and expense of learning the language for the shambles that is the education system and work with them for the benefit of our national heritage, culture and identity.

I'm not blaming Irish speakers for the shambles that is our education system. I just think what they work for is not my national heritage, is not part of my culture, and is certainly not part of my identity. As such, I have no interest in seeing it brought forward. If you do, that's wonderful, there's a society for it, called an Cumman Gaelach. I wish you luck with your involvement there. I see no reason why I should divert resources for the provision of your culture however, especially given that the state already spends an unconscionable amount of money and time on it.

tl;dr : The Irish language is not the culture of most irish people. Please stop claiming it is. The SU is not the government, as such it has no reason to support Irish. And Irish speakers already get incredible amounts of funding for their culture compared to just about any group going.

Cid-Highwind

It's a pity to see a 'campaign' launched in this fashion. So rarely are large groups of DCU students bothered to actually try get something done, but by making demands in this fashion you've alienated a large number of people instantly, Many of these people are involved in the Students Union, Societies and other groups - the same people whose support you need if you want to actually do anything.

Saying we should have an Irish Language officer on the executive is a ridiculous point. Sure, it might get a little more irish into some stuff, but if we have an Irish officer there then the LGBT students, Interntional Students, Catholic Students, Muslim Students, Japanese Students, Pirate loving students will start calling for their officers too. The executive is a small committee responsible for the day to day running of the students' union, cluttering it with people with narrow agendas will quickly make it unworkable.

Union council is a fine place for an Irish Officer (does it have one already, I can't remember). All it needs to do is vote to have one. It can have it's own Irish committee if it wants. The council has the power to define officers and subcommittees as it sees fit. You don't need to make grand demands for these things, simply convince a bunch of elected representatives that it's a good idea. If the people who elected them (their class, students) share such views then this will be a fairly trivial process. If they don't then tough ****, welcome to democracy.

And that is the real problem with this 'campaign'. Why are people rushing to quote constitutions and laws? The SU is a democratic body. While the executive is responsible for day to day decisions they are bound by the will of the council, and it of the students. If students want more Irish, then vote for it and encourage others to do the same, but don't make demands in an attempt to force it on people, unless you want more of the kind of reaction you've seen here.

Personally, I would have been happy to work with a group of reasonable people who wanted more Irish. Among other things I was on the committee that drafted the current constitution (which someone else mentioned), and I would have been happy to work with students that wanted to translate it into Irish (or any language), but I'm not aware that any ever came forward. I wouldn't however go out of my way and give up my free time to work with people demanding anything in this fashion.

Cid-Highwind

vinnyb wrote: »

There are some great societies nationwide servicing specific interests through the Irish Language for example in UCD where the Irish Language Drama Society has 200 more members than the English one in DCU!!! In some peoples ideal world you could found an Irish society for the aforementioned societies in DCU which operate through the medium of Irish. However, this would be a great waste of resources, also why as Irish speakers do we have to marginalise ourselves by removing ourselves from larger, more vibrant societies just to pursue our interests through the Irish language? Why can’t relevant societies strive to create vibrant bi-lingual environments. Any Irish Officer in DCU should strive to ensure that all relevant societies are given adequate incentive and support to ensure that they strive to develop their bi-lingual policies. In an ideal world the Cumann Gaelach in DCU would exist as a vibrant social society instead of the “Jack of All Trades, Master of None”.

This is a prime example of the wrong attitude I have discussed. If you want more Irish language drama then fine, either become involved with the existing Drama society or start a new one if that is not possible.

Society committies are elected by their members to do what their members want. It is not the remit of the SPC (and certainly not of the SU) to force any bilingual policy on them.

(Also, comparing the size of DCU societies to universities several times larger is fairly pointless. Drama is a fairly large society by DCU standards)

Carri

Heh, this kinda of makes me laugh.
Like this whole thread, the facebook page.. Everything.

Irish isn't dead people speak it.. Doesn't mean the whole college should be subjected to it.

Irish is a horrible language IMO..(Anyone with a problem with this, please feel free to mail me and we can debate it out over coffee, guarentee you i'll win. )

I'm a computing student, for the entirity of this year I seen one poster in the computing building advertising an irish event... If Irish is so well liked and so many people like speaking it, why don't Cumann Gaelach - IrishSoc, put on more accessable and ADVERTISED events. Societies do after all get granted money for posters.

I speak french almost fluently and in comparsion to Irish which I've been learning for 14 or so years of my life.. It's considerably better. I've no interest in furthering my learning of irish as it's rarely used in todays world.

So anyway my point is I think if people actually do want irish in the SU more.. They need to get more people involved. I'm outgoing chair of Strange Things, and would've happily run and showing for Irish Week (I should type that in Irish but my written Irish is horrific) if actually asked by the Society. (and given considerable advanced warning in order to find Irish dubbed/made sci-fi.)

*rabble* etc..

Noodleworm

Nationalism is a very dangerous and effective tool, and its exactly what their using here to promote this campaign, Along with a rather aggressive "us vs them" mentality.

Its nice that people want to speak Irish. yet they really need to simplify their goals. There vague demands such as Irish officers, Irish presence at events. Exactly what would their ideal scenario be?

-Round up the Irish speakers and make them talk Irish loudly in public?
-Have this officer go around telling other people to speak Irish?
-Have all the building signs in Irish too?

Why doesn't this little Facebook group do something more useful and just pledge to speak Irish more often? instead of attacking everyone else.

When Foreign students talk of their lack of Irish culture Its most likely their referring to the cartoon idea of Irish people thats spread internationally. expecting us all to be ginger and saying "top 'o the morning". like a year long paddys day.

Forcing Irish like this is only going to kill it. It's the same problem it has in schools. Making it formal and something that is required will only make people resent it.


We all would have learned better if we made the effort to sit down with our friends and chat in Irish. Schools, colleges and government constitutions can't make you. The student have to choose too. I believe Irish speakers have no one to blame but themselves. They have the ability to speak the language and their not. Stop throwing away the responsibility onto the SU