What is this???

lil_cain · 06-05-2010 12:55AM

batman007 wrote: »

First and foremost, I am not a Fiontar student yet I am very passionate about the language. I wish to address a number of points that have been made on this thread.

1) Irish is OUR language and I quote Article 8 of Bunreacht na hEireann "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language."
Therefore we have the right to services and activities through the medium of Irish.

Yours, maybe. It certainly isn't mine. And the Irish constitution has an awful lot of bollocks in it. As near as I can see, the place of the Irish language falls right beside Article 41.2 in terms of idiocy that's best ignored. And as it's not a government body, I see no reason why the idiocy in our state's constitution places any demands on the Students' Union.

batman007 wrote: »

3)I notice that a number of people on this thread have brought up the point that no-one has any interest in the Irish language. This point is clearly meaningless when you look at the number of members the facebook page has gathered in such a short period of time, 416 the last time i checked

416 out of 8,000 or so. The average group taking the piss out of people gets more people joining.

batman007 wrote: »

4)Quite a few people have also mentioned that there are more international students in DCU than Irish speakers. These students come to Ireland not only to further their studies but also to immerse themselves in the Irish culture. On the facebook page there are comments from international students who were shocked and appalled on their arrival to discover that there was such little interest in our native language. (Also see pt. 7). I have also talked to students in my class who have expressed such opinions. If I went on Erasmus or Intra abroad I would expect the people to speak their national language, it surely is no different for sudents arriving in Ireland?

Irish isn't our national language. Hasn't been for quite some time. If it was, this discussion would be going on as gaeilge. The fact that its not should tell you something about the relative claims of Irish and English to being our national language.

batman007 wrote: »

5) DCU is the only university in Ireland without a sitting Irish Officer on the executive - this is an obvious inequality. It is key for every college to have one to ensure promotion of the language. It is unfair to ask the Cumann Gaelach to be the only body on campus that specificaly aims to advance it.

Why? Redbrick's the only body on campus campaigning to improve most students' IT skills, and that's something actually useful. Why should I contribute to something that I frankly couldn't care less about like the status of the Irish language?

batman007 wrote: »

7)I would also like to point out that the Cumann does in fact provide weekly irish classes catering for all levels. It has also been a noticeable trend that many students that turn up to these classes are actually international students looking to make the most of their experience in Ireland.

Maybe you should focus on getting more people to those classes, rather than asking for ridiculous posts on the SU. The language is either a living vibrant one, in which case it won't need dedicated SU representatives to stand up for it, or it isn't, in which case a post on the SU is ridiculous pandering.

Diarmsquid · 06-05-2010 01:01AM

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

The Irish constitution of 1937 also recognises the special position of the Catholic Church. Maybe I have similar grounds to campaign for a crucifix in every lecture hall.

Not since the 1970's it doesn't.

batman007 · 06-05-2010 02:04AM

See link in response to some queries raised, which are addressed by another student:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/topic.php?uid=115365665160919&topic=41

Jill. · 06-05-2010 02:06AM

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Maitiu, if you really want people to listen to you, learn how to use paragraphs

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Edit it?

Wow. Every word of Maitiú's post is true so you resort to the paragraphing as a distraction.

This campaign is for the benifit of people who speak Irish, those who have interest in Irish, and those who think it's worth their while integrating it into their college life-If that's not what you're about then why concern yourself with it at all? If you think it's a waste of money, then why make it a waste of your time by also giving out about it?

There is no denying that people are passionate about the language. There would be no basis for a campaign otherwise. Contrary to popular beleif, we are not doing this for the good of our health-It's a cause we beleive in.

And also I'm curious as to what exactly these "things that the entire student body can take advantage of" that people seem to think money could be better spent on? If there are no suggestions, then there is no argument to be made here.

lil_cain · 06-05-2010 02:11AM

Jill. wrote: »

Wow. Every word of Maitiú's post is true so you resort to the paragraphing as a distraction.

This campaign is for the benifit of people who speak Irish, those who have interest in Irish, and those who think it's worth their while integrating it into their college life-If that's not what you're about then why concern yourself with it at all? If you think it's a waste of money, then why make it a waste of your time by also giving out about it?

There is no denying that people are passionate about the language. There would be no basis for a campaign otherwise. Contrary to popular beleif, we are not doing this for the good of our health-It's a cause we beleive in.

And also I'm curious as to what exactly these "things that the entire student body can take advantage of" that people seem to think money could be better spent on? If there are no suggestions, then there is no argument to be made here.

The things its being spent on currently? Unless you have a magic way to create money?

GLaDOS · 06-05-2010 03:16AM

Jill. wrote: »

Wow. Every word of Maitiú's post is true so you resort to the paragraphing as a distraction.

I've no idea if it was true, I've no interest in reading a giant wall of text

vinnyb · 06-05-2010 09:23AM

lil_cain wrote: »

Yours, maybe. It certainly isn't mine. And the Irish constitution has an awful lot of bollocks in it. As near as I can see, the place of the Irish language falls right beside Article 41.2 in terms of idiocy that's best ignored. And as it's not a government body, I see no reason why the idiocy in our state's constitution places any demands on the Students' Union.

lil_cain wrote: »

If you have a problem with the Irish constitution and you feel passionately about it, lobbying your local TDs, is that not meant to be how democracy works, they are a vehicle with which to represent your views. Just as an Irish Officer should be a vehicle to represent Irish speakers here in DCU?

And here is a tidy little piece from a recently published Government Strategy in relation to Irish which was published in the last 6 months

There is an existing statutory framework for third level education in Irish, including the obligation on the HEA under the Higher Education Act 1971 to “bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of these aims”. This is further strengthened in section 12 of the Universities Act 1997, which provides that the objectives of all universities include ‘[promotion of] the official languages of the State, with special regard to the preservation, promotion and use of the Irish language and the preservation and promotion of the distinctive cultures of Ireland’.

Surely this demonstrates that there is an onus on the Su to ensure that University strives towards fufilling this legislation to the best of their ability?

lil_cain wrote: »

416 out of 8,000 or so. The average group taking the piss out of people gets more people joining.

lil_cain wrote: »

Ha nice to see a wise guy lets put it into context, thats 416 who have been proactive and expressed an interest in being represented by the union, that is over double the 203 from the famed Faculty of Engineering and Computing who voted for their faculty covenor in the recent SU elections, and that is a Faculty that has 13.4% of the student body? Put your figures in a relevant context, not everyone identifies with the Union, so 416 out of 1924 valid polls for presidental election is perhaps more relevant, thats over 20%.

lil_cain wrote: »

Irish isn't our national language. Hasn't been for quite some time. If it was, this discussion would be going on as gaeilge. The fact that its not should tell you something about the relative claims of Irish and English to being our national language.

lil_cain wrote: »

Excellent to see a good grasp of the constitution there, for many people on this page, if you are happy to sit here and proclaim English your national language that is your choice, but just like we try to be as welcoming as possible by adopting a fully bi-lingual policy, I would expect you to not try enfore your neo-colonial attitude on others in DCU who support our culture and heritage, having an Irish Officer on DCU will not cost you anything, it will not in any way take from your student experience, why are you so against Irish speakers getting adequate representation?

lil_cain wrote: »

Why? Redbrick's the only body on campus campaigning to improve most students' IT skills, and that's something actually useful. Why should I contribute to something that I frankly couldn't care less about like the status of the Irish language?

lil_cain wrote: »

I was under the impression that improving IT skills falls under the academic learning outcomes of a lot of courses and if it falls outside I thought ISS were there to support that sort of thing?

The SU have recognised that Irish needs a bigger prescene in ths SU so instead of being counter productive and knocking a language which I understand is always going to be divisive due to the failings of the education system could you please be counter productive and voice how you feel Irish can be taken forward? If you feel it is a waste of money, come up with cost effective ways of bringing it forward. Please stop blaming Irish speakers who have gone to the time and expense of learning the language for the shambles that is the education system and work with them for the benefit of our national heritage, culture and identity.

Ní neart go chur le chéile (Strength is in Unity)

P.S. For those unconvinced about the value of Irish I suggest you look at the works of a former DCU Professor Fionbar Ó Brolcháin , who has written extensively on the economic benefits of cultural capital.

BuyMeEggs · 06-05-2010 11:13AM

Here we go, thats right - lets all take the piss out of Irish, sure afterall, it is only

a dead horse.

Wrong. How can Irish be an equine animal thats passed away, when you see the support this campaign has? Irish is not to be forced on people. But, look around you. You are in the land of leprechauns and Guinness. Yes, it is called Ireland, and we speak English and Irish. Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.

Oh, but thats not the SU's job? Oh right. So what exactly is the SU's job?........... The only thing I have seen the SU do is spend a copious amount of money in the NuBar.

This is getting out of hand. Irish is not a command, or a demand - it is a right and a privilege. Why doesn't DCU want to show some pride in it's own Irish culture? We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

Attol · 06-05-2010 11:31AM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.

Nobody is trying to stop anyone speaking Irish on campus. Of course they have the right to speak it.

You have to stop blaming the SU though. It's not their fault everyone can't speak Irish. The anti SU thing on Facebook is ridiculous.

Green Hand Guy · 06-05-2010 11:50AM

vinnyb wrote: »

If you feel it is a waste of money, come up with cost effective ways of bringing it forward. Please stop blaming Irish speakers who have gone to the time and expense of learning the language for the shambles that is the education system and work with them for the benefit of our national heritage, culture and identity.

I think the entire idea of a cultural identity is a bit silly. Why should anyone live a particular way just because the people before them chose to?

Also, you seem to make it sound like we'd all love to run around speaking Irish if it wasn't for that damn educational system. Bollox! It could be taught by the greatest teacher in the world in the most effective way possible and I still probably wouldn't speak it. Not because I've been failed, but because I just don't want to. I think the attitude that I'm not bilingual because of some education system failing is very condescending and disrespectful.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

Again, not my native language. Didn't speak a word of it before school, haven't spoke a word since. Doesn't make me any less Irish than any other person.

Anyway, all of that was a little off topic. I have no problem with people who want to speak Irish speaking it, but I think starting a facebook page whose picture is the SU Logo with a big red X through it and whose contents are a list of demands comes across as overly heavy-handed and aggressive. To say that it isn't an attack on the SU is just laughable.

lil_cain · 06-05-2010 11:52AM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Here we go, thats right - lets all take the piss out of Irish, sure afterall, it is only

Wrong. How can Irish be an equine animal thats passed away, when you see the support this campaign has? Irish is not to be forced on people. But, look around you. You are in the land of leprechauns and Guinness. Yes, it is called Ireland, and we speak English and Irish. Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.

snip

This is getting out of hand. Irish is not a command, or a demand - it is a right and a privilege. Why doesn't DCU want to show some pride in it's own Irish culture? We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

This is my issue. Irish isn't my native language. I was born here, and I'm as Irish as they come. But I was raised through English, my parents were raised through English, and their parents were raised through English. I'd be shocked if that was not true for the majority of students in DCU. As such the Irish language is no longer, by own culture, nor that of a very large number of the students DCU SU represents. You may speak both Irish and English, but I certainly don't, and I fail to see why your knowledge of a minority language should entitle you to more support than I get, especially given that that knowledge is in itself and advantage, not something you're likely to suffer discrimination on the basis of, nor something that's going to be anything other than an advantage for you in later life.

Garseys · 06-05-2010 11:57AM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Here we go, thats right - lets all take the piss out of Irish, sure afterall, it is only

Wrong. How can Irish be an equine animal thats passed away, when you see the support this campaign has? Irish is not to be forced on people. But, look around you. You are in the land of leprechauns and Guinness. Yes, it is called Ireland, and we speak English and Irish. Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.

Oh, but thats not the SU's job? Oh right. So what exactly is the SU's job?........... The only thing I have seen the SU do is spend a copious amount of money in the NuBar.

This is getting out of hand. Irish is not a command, or a demand - it is a right and a privilege. Why doesn't DCU want to show some pride in it's own Irish culture? We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

But your issues with the SU are limited though, There is only so much they can do. Ultimately, This comes down to the University itself. The SU can lobby the powers that be and impliment a bilingual policy on documents and such and promote and run a few Irish events, but not much else,

(btw I'd like to point out that the dcu.ie website is not available in Irish as has to be translated by google

)

And also I understand where that Girl that ran for SPC was coming from but at the end of the day, It's not the SPC's job to push for more Irish Events in societies. That would be like myself saying "I'm involved in X society and I want all societies to do a number of X events a year". and honestly as someone who had a vote at that meeting, thats how it came across.

The SPC's aims and roles as stated in their constitution

Aim:
To allocate funds among societies in an efficient, fair and democratic manner.

To facilitate the creation and growth of societies, through the provision of appropriate training and support, and to advise them of their needs.

To oversee the auditing of the society accounts.

To promote society work and represent the interests of societies locally, nationally and internationally.

To promote society involvement as a mechanism for extra-curricular personal development

Just wanted to make sure that was clear;)

Btw can I ask a question to those who are lobbying for the changes, Do you feel that the Irish Officer should sit on the Executive and is it more important than the likes of the Clubs and Socs Officer and Equality Officer?

vinnyb · 06-05-2010 11:57AM

Attol wrote: »

Nobody is trying to stop anyone speaking Irish on campus. Of course they have the right to speak it.

You have to stop blaming the SU though. It's not their fault everyone can't speak Irish. The anti SU thing on Facebook is ridiculous.

The campaign is not and never has been an anti-SU campaign, actually I would see it more as a campaign which seeks to strengthen the SU by acting as a catalyst to a reform which will allow them to represent a large number DCU students more efficiently.

While the campaign soured yesterday, people all sides have endeavored to move forward and ensure that the issue at hand gets the attention it deserves, starting with a meeting between the co-ordinators of this campaign, incoming and outgoing executive members and external experts on the role of Irish in Student Unions. This meeting is due to take early next week and I encourage anyone who has an interest to forward on your opinions to either the co-ordinators of the campaign or any of the sabbats, it doesn't matter whether they are pro-Irish or anti-Irish, if you feel passionate about the subject use your voice to air your opinions in a constructive manner

vinnyb · 06-05-2010 12:05PM

Garseys wrote: »

But your issues with the SU are limited though, There is only so much they can do. Ultimately, This comes down to the University itself. The SU can lobby the powers that be and impliment a bilingual policy on documents and such and promote and run a few Irish events, but not much else,

(btw I'd like to point out that the dcu.ie website is not available in Irish as has to be translated by google )

And also I understand where that Girl that ran for SPC was coming from but at the end of the day, It's not the SPC's job to push for more Irish Events in societies. That would be like myself saying "I'm involved in X society and I want all societies to do a number of X events a year". and honestly as someone who had a vote at that meeting, thats how it came across.

The SPC's aims and roles as stated in their constitution

[/LIST]
Just wanted to make sure that was clear;)

Btw can I ask a question to those who are lobbying for the changes, Do you feel that an Irish Officer should sit on the Executive and is it more important than the likes of the Clubs and Socs Officer and Equality Officer?

Just as a note here, you have quoted the aims of the SPC as stated in their constitution, it is interesting to note that they don't specify that this is to be done solely through the medium of the English??

I would also like to draw your attention to this which was posted on the wall of the Facebook campaign I think it makes interesting reading

Irish shouldn’t only fall into the hands of the Cumann Gaelach in DCU. We are an Irish society, not a Drama Society, a Dance Society, a Debating Society or a GAA Club for that matter. There are some great societies nationwide servicing specific interests through the Irish Language for example in UCD where the Irish Language Drama Society has 200 more members than the English one in DCU!!! In some peoples ideal world you could found an Irish society for the aforementioned societies in DCU which operate through the medium of Irish. However, this would be a great waste of resources, also why as Irish speakers do we have to marginalise ourselves by removing ourselves from larger, more vibrant societies just to pursue our interests through the Irish language? Why can’t relevant societies strive to create vibrant bi-lingual environments. Any Irish Officer in DCU should strive to ensure that all relevant societies are given adequate incentive and support to ensure that they strive to develop their bi-lingual policies. In an ideal world the Cumann Gaelach in DCU would exist as a vibrant social society instead of the “Jack of All Trades, Master of None”.

Also I think that the SPC has recognised that Irish should be developed in societies, and have brought in the bi-lingual postering funding as already mentioned and there is also talk of introducing an award for "Biggest Cultural Contribution" at the Clubs and Socs awards ( excluding Cumann Gaelach & GAA etc.)

Green Hand Guy · 06-05-2010 12:13PM

vinnyb wrote: »

Just as a note here, you have quoted the aims of the SPC as stated in their constitution, it is interesting to note that they don't specify that this is to be done solely through the medium of the English??

They don't specify that they don't have to wear top hats and ride around on unicycles either. You can read a lot into what they don't specify

lil_cain · 06-05-2010 12:15PM

vinnyb wrote: »

If you have a problem with the Irish constitution and you feel passionately about it, lobbying your local TDs, is that not meant to be how democracy works, they are a vehicle with which to represent your views. Just as an Irish Officer should be a vehicle to represent Irish speakers here in DCU?

You're right. But the Irish provisions don't bother me most of the time, because they only affect government bodies. DCU SU is not a government body, and so should not have to deal with the constitution's more retarded bits.

And we already have plenty of officers to represent Irish speakers in DCU. The entire SU in fact. You don't need an officer specifically to promote the Irish language, in the same way homosexuals don't need a specific LGBT officer, and I don't need a colour blind officer.

vinnyb wrote: »

And here is a tidy little piece from a recently published Government Strategy in relation to Irish which was published in the last 6 months

There is an existing statutory framework for third level education in Irish, including the obligation on the HEA under the Higher Education Act 1971 to “bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of these aims”. This is further strengthened in section 12 of the Universities Act 1997, which provides that the objectives of all universities include ‘[promotion of] the official languages of the State, with special regard to the preservation, promotion and use of the Irish language and the preservation and promotion of the distinctive cultures of Ireland’.

Surely this demonstrates that there is an onus on the Su to ensure that University strives towards fufilling this legislation to the best of their ability?

Those are the University's goals. Not the SU's. The SU has (from what I can see) no pro-irish language mandate. And that should remain the same.

vinnyb wrote: »

Ha nice to see a wise guy lets put it into context, thats 416 who have been proactive and expressed an interest in being represented by the union, that is over double the 203 from the famed Faculty of Engineering and Computing who voted for their faculty covenor in the recent SU elections, and that is a Faculty that has 13.4% of the student body? Put your figures in a relevant context, not everyone identifies with the Union, so 416 out of 1924 valid polls for presidental election is perhaps more relevant, thats over 20%.

Except far more people join facebook groups than vote. Because that's something people all the time, and requires no knowledge, or forethought, and is easy to do over a far larger period of time. It doesn't even require you to be a current DCU student. So really, the two things are completely incomparable.

vinnyb wrote: »

Excellent to see a good grasp of the constitution there, for many people on this page, if you are happy to sit here and proclaim English your national language that is your choice, but just like we try to be as welcoming as possible by adopting a fully bi-lingual policy, I would expect you to not try enfore your neo-colonial attitude on others in DCU who support our culture and heritage, having an Irish Officer on DCU will not cost you anything, it will not in any way take from your student experience, why are you so against Irish speakers getting adequate representation?

It will cost something. Adding any officer costs things, in terms of making decision making more difficult, and having more people hanging around. And if they want to actually do something, it'll cost even more, since it'll mean the SU spend time they could be spending on other things.

On another point, I find your accusations of neo-colonialism horrendously offensive. I'm irish. The fact that I don't cling to the language of a tiny minority isn't a sign of neo-colonialism, or anything of the like.

vinnyb wrote: »

If you have a problem with the Irish constitution and you feel passionately about it, lobbying your local TDs, is that not meant to be how democracy works, they are a vehicle with which to represent your views. Just as an Irish Officer should be a vehicle to represent Irish speakers here in DCU?

You're right. But the Irish provisions don't bother me most of the time, because they only affect government bodies. DCU SU is not a government body, and so should not have to deal with the constitution's more retarded bits.

And we already have plenty of officers to represent Irish speakers in DCU. The entire SU in fact. You don't need an officer specifically to promote the Irish language, in the same way homosexuals don't need a specific LGBT officer, and I don't need a colour blind officer.

vinnyb wrote: »

And here is a tidy little piece from a recently published Government Strategy in relation to Irish which was published in the last 6 months

There is an existing statutory framework for third level education in Irish, including the obligation on the HEA under the Higher Education Act 1971 to “bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of these aims”. This is further strengthened in section 12 of the Universities Act 1997, which provides that the objectives of all universities include ‘[promotion of] the official languages of the State, with special regard to the preservation, promotion and use of the Irish language and the preservation and promotion of the distinctive cultures of Ireland’.

Surely this demonstrates that there is an onus on the Su to ensure that University strives towards fufilling this legislation to the best of their ability?

Those are the University's goals. Not the SU's. The SU has (from what I can see) no pro-irish language mandate. And that should remain the same.

vinnyb wrote: »

Ha nice to see a wise guy lets put it into context, thats 416 who have been proactive and expressed an interest in being represented by the union, that is over double the 203 from the famed Faculty of Engineering and Computing who voted for their faculty covenor in the recent SU elections, and that is a Faculty that has 13.4% of the student body? Put your figures in a relevant context, not everyone identifies with the Union, so 416 out of 1924 valid polls for presidental election is perhaps more relevant, thats over 20%.

Except far more people join facebook groups than vote. Because that's something people all the time, and requires no knowledge, or forethought, and is easy to do over a far larger period of time. It doesn't even require you to be a current DCU student. So really, the two things are completely incomparable.

vinnyb wrote: »

I was under the impression that improving IT skills falls under the academic learning outcomes of a lot of courses and if it falls outside I thought ISS were there to support that sort of thing?

ISS provide services. I've never seen them (and they have no role) in trying to explain any of the broader issues in IT. But hey, feel free to clutch at straws.

vinnyb wrote: »

The SU have recognised that Irish needs a bigger prescene in ths SU so instead of being counter productive and knocking a language which I understand is always going to be divisive due to the failings of the education system could you please be counter productive and voice how you feel Irish can be taken forward? If you feel it is a waste of money, come up with cost effective ways of bringing it forward. Please stop blaming Irish speakers who have gone to the time and expense of learning the language for the shambles that is the education system and work with them for the benefit of our national heritage, culture and identity.

I'm not blaming Irish speakers for the shambles that is our education system. I just think what they work for is not my national heritage, is not part of my culture, and is certainly not part of my identity. As such, I have no interest in seeing it brought forward. If you do, that's wonderful, there's a society for it, called an Cumman Gaelach. I wish you luck with your involvement there. I see no reason why I should divert resources for the provision of your culture however, especially given that the state already spends an unconscionable amount of money and time on it.

tl;dr : The Irish language is not the culture of most irish people. Please stop claiming it is. The SU is not the government, as such it has no reason to support Irish. And Irish speakers already get incredible amounts of funding for their culture compared to just about any group going.

Cid-Highwind · 06-05-2010 12:23PM

It's a pity to see a 'campaign' launched in this fashion. So rarely are large groups of DCU students bothered to actually try get something done, but by making demands in this fashion you've alienated a large number of people instantly, Many of these people are involved in the Students Union, Societies and other groups - the same people whose support you need if you want to actually do anything.

Saying we should have an Irish Language officer on the executive is a ridiculous point. Sure, it might get a little more irish into some stuff, but if we have an Irish officer there then the LGBT students, Interntional Students, Catholic Students, Muslim Students, Japanese Students, Pirate loving students will start calling for their officers too. The executive is a small committee responsible for the day to day running of the students' union, cluttering it with people with narrow agendas will quickly make it unworkable.

Union council is a fine place for an Irish Officer (does it have one already, I can't remember). All it needs to do is vote to have one. It can have it's own Irish committee if it wants. The council has the power to define officers and subcommittees as it sees fit. You don't need to make grand demands for these things, simply convince a bunch of elected representatives that it's a good idea. If the people who elected them (their class, students) share such views then this will be a fairly trivial process. If they don't then tough ****, welcome to democracy.

And that is the real problem with this 'campaign'. Why are people rushing to quote constitutions and laws? The SU is a democratic body. While the executive is responsible for day to day decisions they are bound by the will of the council, and it of the students. If students want more Irish, then vote for it and encourage others to do the same, but don't make demands in an attempt to force it on people, unless you want more of the kind of reaction you've seen here.

Personally, I would have been happy to work with a group of reasonable people who wanted more Irish. Among other things I was on the committee that drafted the current constitution (which someone else mentioned), and I would have been happy to work with students that wanted to translate it into Irish (or any language), but I'm not aware that any ever came forward. I wouldn't however go out of my way and give up my free time to work with people demanding anything in this fashion.

Cid-Highwind · 06-05-2010 12:37PM

vinnyb wrote: »

There are some great societies nationwide servicing specific interests through the Irish Language for example in UCD where the Irish Language Drama Society has 200 more members than the English one in DCU!!! In some peoples ideal world you could found an Irish society for the aforementioned societies in DCU which operate through the medium of Irish. However, this would be a great waste of resources, also why as Irish speakers do we have to marginalise ourselves by removing ourselves from larger, more vibrant societies just to pursue our interests through the Irish language? Why can’t relevant societies strive to create vibrant bi-lingual environments. Any Irish Officer in DCU should strive to ensure that all relevant societies are given adequate incentive and support to ensure that they strive to develop their bi-lingual policies. In an ideal world the Cumann Gaelach in DCU would exist as a vibrant social society instead of the “Jack of All Trades, Master of None”.

This is a prime example of the wrong attitude I have discussed. If you want more Irish language drama then fine, either become involved with the existing Drama society or start a new one if that is not possible.

Society committies are elected by their members to do what their members want. It is not the remit of the SPC (and certainly not of the SU) to force any bilingual policy on them.

(Also, comparing the size of DCU societies to universities several times larger is fairly pointless. Drama is a fairly large society by DCU standards)

Carri · 06-05-2010 12:41PM

Heh, this kinda of makes me laugh.
Like this whole thread, the facebook page.. Everything.

Irish isn't dead people speak it.. Doesn't mean the whole college should be subjected to it.

Irish is a horrible language IMO..(Anyone with a problem with this, please feel free to mail me and we can debate it out over coffee, guarentee you i'll win.

)

I'm a computing student, for the entirity of this year I seen one poster in the computing building advertising an irish event... If Irish is so well liked and so many people like speaking it, why don't Cumann Gaelach - IrishSoc, put on more accessable and ADVERTISED events. Societies do after all get granted money for posters.

I speak french almost fluently and in comparsion to Irish which I've been learning for 14 or so years of my life.. It's considerably better. I've no interest in furthering my learning of irish as it's rarely used in todays world.

So anyway my point is I think if people actually do want irish in the SU more.. They need to get more people involved. I'm outgoing chair of Strange Things, and would've happily run and showing for Irish Week (I should type that in Irish but my written Irish is horrific) if actually asked by the Society. (and given considerable advanced warning in order to find Irish dubbed/made sci-fi.)

*rabble* etc..

Noodleworm · 06-05-2010 12:45PM

Nationalism is a very dangerous and effective tool, and its exactly what their using here to promote this campaign, Along with a rather aggressive "us vs them" mentality.

Its nice that people want to speak Irish. yet they really need to simplify their goals. There vague demands such as Irish officers, Irish presence at events. Exactly what would their ideal scenario be?

-Round up the Irish speakers and make them talk Irish loudly in public?
-Have this officer go around telling other people to speak Irish?
-Have all the building signs in Irish too?

Why doesn't this little Facebook group do something more useful and just pledge to speak Irish more often? instead of attacking everyone else.

When Foreign students talk of their lack of Irish culture Its most likely their referring to the cartoon idea of Irish people thats spread internationally. expecting us all to be ginger and saying "top 'o the morning". like a year long paddys day.

Forcing Irish like this is only going to kill it. It's the same problem it has in schools. Making it formal and something that is required will only make people resent it.

We all would have learned better if we made the effort to sit down with our friends and chat in Irish. Schools, colleges and government constitutions can't make you. The student have to choose too. I believe Irish speakers have no one to blame but themselves. They have the ability to speak the language and their not. Stop throwing away the responsibility onto the SU

g5fd6ow0hseima · 06-05-2010 12:46PM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Here we go, thats right - lets all take the piss out of Irish, sure afterall, it is only a dead horse

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Wrong. How can Irish be an equine animal thats passed away, when you see the support this campaign has? Irish is not to be forced on people. But, look around you. You are in the land of leprechauns and Guinness. Yes, it is called Ireland, and we speak English and Irish. Therefore, the right should be given to people to speak Irish on campus, if they wish to do so.

Irish is dead. And has been since the famine. I come from a rural area, and the only people I know who speak Irish are a family next door, who's father grew up on the Arann Islands. To argue that Irish is in a healthy state is being dillusional. Yeah, you have a right to speak Irish, just as I have a right to bear religious symbols and practise my faith openly.

You're talking about the support this campaign has? Well, in terms of overall support, I wouldnt really see it as substantial in any way. And given that you consistently refer to the numbers of people who have joined a facebook group, I myself wouldnt deem those who think 'oh, yeah, it'd be great if we could all speak our national language like' to be genuine supporters agitating for change. For all those supporters, you have people like myself who see it as a waste of time. If you want to learn Irish, fair enough, do. But remember, I, along with a whole lot of students dont care for Irish in the slightest.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Oh, but thats not the SU's job? Oh right. So what exactly is the SU's job?........... The only thing I have seen the SU do is spend a copious amount of money in the NuBar.

So the SU's job is to promote Irish? That makes sense alright.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

This is getting out of hand. Irish is not a command, or a demand - it is a right and a privilege. Why doesn't DCU want to show some pride in it's own Irish culture? We are in one of Ireland's top universities, and not being support by the organisation that drives the student body to show pride in our own native language is shameful.

This is a demand.

Right and privilage? Seriously, how childish are you? You speak english yourself, so you are at no loss on this campus. And no - I dont see the Irish language as playing much of a part in modern Irish culture. It's just something which has been dragged through the decades more out of the sense of nostalgia than anything else. Stop trying to make it out that Irish is essential to us. It's not, It has no use. Its a dead language. Swallow that fact.

Damn, where's my pride? I guess im not patriotic enough.

Insulting_Bitch · 06-05-2010 12:48PM

Aragh for the love of jesus, ye'll fight with your own shadow ye lot.

All I wanted was some clarification on the translation after a friend sent me the page on facebook.

I sure hope this controversypushes the cumman gaelach to really promote Irish and to try prove people wrong!

Also, I love how any argument on boards get hoards on new accounts to fight back their corner! A couple of new user names there that tickle me!

BuyMeEggs · 06-05-2010 01:04PM

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Irish is dead.

This thread proves the opposite. Never have I talked about something so much that is dead. Even Gerry Ryan.

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Yeah, you have a right to speak Irish, just as I have a right to bear religious symbols and practise my faith openly.

Did anyone say you couldn't?

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

If you want to learn Irish, fair enough, do. But remember, I, along with a whole lot of students dont care for Irish in the slightest.

Maybe if you asked people in person, rather than sitting behind a screen, you would find that most people would actually like to speak Irish, and wish they could with greater fluency. Stop speaking for other people.

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Right and privilage? Seriously, how childish are you? You speak english yourself, so you are at no loss on this campus.

Am I not? Imagine that. You're wrong again. I am from a Gealtacht area in West of Ireland. I have only needed to use English since I moved to Dublin. So, it would actually be easier for me to speak in Irish. Yes, I can speak English, but I prefer to speak Irish.

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Damn, where's my pride? I guess im not patriotic enough.

Well, you are a bit of a fool.

vinnyb · 06-05-2010 01:04PM

As an Irish speaker, some people don't really seem to understand the basis behind linguistic rights,

In Ireland we have a choice what language we want to speak, we also should have the choice to have adequate representation on a body which represents us, we contribute to the Union through our capitation fee, former Union Presidents of SUs with Irish Officers have spoken out in favour of the campaign and have gone on the record as saying that the Irish Officer was the most effective of the part-time officers.

It is easy to be negative for the sole purpose of being negative however, not one person who has attacked the Irish language on this thread have proposed a way in which Irish speakers who have spoken up for what they believe is a defiency in their Union can be appeased?

Irish speakers deal with adversity in the form glorified sensationalism every day of our lives and if this thread does achieve anything constructive, it will serve to strengthen the resolve of the Irish Language community here in DCU.

I really wish that people should stop trying to hammer something which has now been identified by the Union and a significant proportion of the student body as a defiency in our Union.

Jill. · 06-05-2010 01:07PM

Carri wrote: »

I'm a computing student, for the entirity of this year I seen one poster in the computing building advertising an irish event... If Irish is so well liked and so many people like speaking it, why don't Cumann Gaelach - IrishSoc, put on more accessable and ADVERTISED events. Societies do after all get granted money for posters.

All events are advertised, I have personally designed dozens posters for Irish events, have physically stuck them up and hoards of emails are sent to raise awareness of Irish events. All events are accessable-I have yet to meet someone who doesn't know where the nubar is-and for those who don't speak Irish we have a sticker system whereby you wear the colour depending on your level of Irish (green-fluent, orange-few words, red-none)
Everyone can take part, everyone can have fun, everyone can be included in the Irish language. This is a healthy promotion, a way to enjoy our language.

g5fd6ow0hseima · 06-05-2010 01:11PM

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

This thread proves the opposite. Never have I talked about something so much that is dead. Even Gerry Ryan.

Fair enough, it's alive and well then. Statistics dont speak for themselves.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Did anyone say you couldn't?

No. But having rights doesnt mean putting unrealistic demands on a body which is not there to provide for those purposes.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Maybe if you asked people in person, rather than sitting behind a screen, you would find that most people would actually like to speak Irish, and wish they could with greater fluency. Stop speaking for other people.

Sure wouldnt we all like to speak Irish. I'd like to speak German too, and Arabic for that matter.

Stop speaking for other people? How about stop with all this militancy.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Am I not? Imagine that. You're wrong again. I am from a Gealtacht area in West of Ireland. I have only needed to use English since I moved to Dublin. So, it would actually be easier for me to speak in Irish. Yes, I can speak English, but I prefer to speak Irish.

Ok, well then you obviously realise that you are part of a tiny, tiny minority. So should the college bend over backwards to suit such a small pool of people? No - the world just doesnt work like that.

BuyMeEggs wrote: »

Well, you are a bit of a fool.

Why?

Cid-Highwind · 06-05-2010 01:14PM

vinnyb wrote: »

In Ireland we have a choice what language we want to speak, we also should have the choice to have adequate representation on a body which represents us

Fine, go do something about it then. Get involved in things rather than ranting on the internet.

There are three people who have full time paid positions in the Students' Union. Everyone else involved in the SU, Clubs & Societies gives up their time because they enjoy whatever it is they are doing.

If people who want to speak Irish get involved these groups then an increased Irish presence will happen naturally, if they're not bothered then any attempts to do anything are a pointless waste of time, resources, and the money of the large proportion of students who have no interest in the language.

vinnyb · 06-05-2010 01:25PM

Cid-Highwind wrote: »

Fine, go do something about it then. Get involved in things rather than ranting on the internet.

There are three people who have full time paid positions in the Students' Union. Everyone else involved in the SU, Clubs & Societies gives up their time because they enjoy whatever it is they are doing.

If people who want to speak Irish get involved these groups then an increased Irish presence will happen naturally, if they're not bothered then any attempts to do anything are a pointless waste of time, resources, and the money of the large proportion of students who have no interest in the language.

I'm puzzled we are attempting to do something about it....

Also my question still stands, why do all over Unions have Irish Officers on the Exec. and we don't? Are we sub-standard Irish speakers in comparison to other Universities Irish speakers?

And according to the latest in depth statistical analysis "'The Irish Language And The Irish People' report, by sociologist Fr Micheal MacGreil SJ and Fergal Rhatigan" the amount of people with a competence in the Irish Language is actually rising, according to the same survey 93pc of Irish people are in favour of having Irish revived. So for me the evidence points to the elevation of the Irish language as something of a populist move.

Einstein? · 06-05-2010 01:26PM

It is a most disgraceful shame the way in which Irishmen are brought up. They are ashamed of their language, institutions, and of everything Irish.

BuyMeEggs · 06-05-2010 01:26PM

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Fair enough, it's alive and well then. Statistics dont speak for themselves.

Defintion of a Dead Language:

A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community.

Census 2006:

1,656,790 out of 4,057,646 people (40.8%) speak Irish in Ireland.[/COLOR]

Theres your statistics. Seems to me Irish is alive and kicking.
[/LEFT]

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

No. But having rights doesnt mean putting unrealistic demands on a body which is not there to provide for those purposes.

Your well able to say that the SU isn't here to serve for Irish. So, does the SU do? I am yet to see what the SU has done for me? I thought that the SU is here to support the students. There is ovbiously a group of students who want to speak Irish. Why can't the SU support them?

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Sure wouldnt we all like to speak Irish. I'd like to speak German too, and Arabic for that matter.

Why don't you? It would make our lives easier.

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Stop speaking for other people? How about stop with all this militancy.

We're not like you, we don't speak for other people. We simply raising a platform to allow freedom of opinion. It just doesn't suit you that the opinions clash with yours. Nothing militant about that.

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Ok, well then you obviously realise that you are part of a tiny, tiny minority. So should the college bend over backwards to suit such a small pool of people? No - the world just doesnt work like that.

I may be part of tiny minority that is in DCU who hail from Gaeltacht regions. However, I'm not in a small majority of people who wish to speak Irish here in DCU.

Alexa Cold Treasurer wrote: »

Why?

Do you really want answer?

Go back and read some of your replies. Some soul searching might help also.

What is this???

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