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PMP Workouts and Pace

2

Comments

  • #32
    Sosa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    Tisnotover,
    I think your a shoe in for thread of the year !


  • #33
    tergat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 187 ✭✭tergat


    Peckham wrote: »
    This is fast becoming "thread of the millennium" for marathoners - especially those of us trying to push up to the next level.

    Another question for tergat - you mention running the PMP runs at today's marathon pace. Assuming that fitness improves throughout training, and that your marathon pace gets faster, this means that you're likely to only do (at most) one training session at the pace that you run in the race. Does this not defeat a key objective of PMP - i.e. getting used to clocking around 12-15 miles at the pace you run on the day?

    And a related question....how do identify today's marathon pace? McMillan? I can see how it's easy to keep track on 5k/10k pace by the races that you run, but as often discussed here those types of races aren't a great predictor of where you are in terms of marathon pace.



    Peckham,

    Good questions, hopefully some answers below:

    I think this PMP term confuses a lot of people. You cant force your body to run at a pace that it simply is not ready for. You will just lose form and burn more of the precious glycogen stores you are trying to store.

    The better way to go about it is to run at the pace on that particular day you think you could run for a marathon taking into account your current fitness level, recent race times, recent sleep patterns, weather, the terrain you are using, hydration status, time of day etc etc.

    If for instance you feel you can run 7.00 per mile for a 4*3 mile marathon pace workout on Feb 15th and on April 1st you feel you can run 6.50 per mile for the same workout that is fine. You have followed the basic prinicple of PROGRESSION. The effort it took to run the 7.00 min pace in Feb is equal to the effort it takes to run 6.50 pace in April, you have just adapted, progressed and got fitter thats all. So if by May you feel you can run 6.40-6.45 per mile for a full Marathon thats great. But running the Marathon at 6.40-6.45 pace is equal to the feeling of how 7.00 minpace felt in Feb relative to your fitness level then. Can you see where I am going?

    A tip estimate your 10k race-pace for the day, on that course taking into account the factors mentioned above and then add 10% to it. If you think you can run 32 minutes (5:08.99 per mile pace), then 10% more would be 5:39.89 per mile pace (MP for that day). If you think on that day you are not fresh, it's warm, you are tired and 33 minutes (5:18.65 per mile pace) is more realistic, then run 5:50.51 per mile for MP training. Oddly, though the pace is slower, you'll get better long-term benefit from it than running too hard / too fast. Hope that helps.

    Tergat


  • #34
    tyler71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 214 ✭✭tyler71


    Is it possible to equate your heart rate with the various paces recommended above? I'm in the same boat as tisnotover, doing my first marathon (Barcelona in three weeks) and similarly the Macmillan recommendations looked too fast so I wasn't sure what pacing to use. As a result I've been doing my training based off heartrate, doing my long runs at Zone 1/2, tempo/steady runs at low Zone 3 and speedwork at lactate threshold. I've noticed that my pace when maintaining these heartrates has actually been pretty consistent, so it's been a good way of estimating my pace, but I don't know if that's just coincidence or not.
    My problem up to now has been knowing what heartrate to maintain for the marathon itself - looking at the scale of paces that Tergat recommends, it looks like the recommended marathon pace is halfway between lactate threshold and easy run so I'm guessing low Zone 3, which is around the pace I've been using for my 'tempo' runs. I was talking to an experienced marathon runner and he runs at his lactate threshold for the first twenty miles and lets his heartrate max out for the finish, but he knows his limits and that sounds a bit risky to me, so I was looking to go lower. Is using heartrate feasible?


  • #35
    tergat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 187 ✭✭tergat


    tyler71 wrote: »
    Is it possible to equate your heart rate with the various paces recommended above? I'm in the same boat as tisnotover, doing my first marathon (Barcelona in three weeks) and similarly the Macmillan recommendations looked too fast so I wasn't sure what pacing to use. As a result I've been doing my training based off heartrate, doing my long runs at Zone 1/2, tempo/steady runs at low Zone 3 and speedwork at lactate threshold. I've noticed that my pace when maintaining these heartrates has actually been pretty consistent, so it's been a good way of estimating my pace, but I don't know if that's just coincidence or not.
    My problem up to now has been knowing what heartrate to maintain for the marathon itself - looking at the scale of paces that Tergat recommends, it looks like the recommended marathon pace is halfway between lactate threshold and easy run so I'm guessing low Zone 3, which is around the pace I've been using for my 'tempo' runs. I was talking to an experienced marathon runner and he runs at his lactate threshold for the first twenty miles and lets his heartrate max out for the finish, but he knows his limits and that sounds a bit risky to me, so I was looking to go lower. Is using heartrate feasible?


    tyler71,

    My advice is not to get to attached to your HR monitor, use paces from recent races as guides aswell as HR but MOST important go by how you feel.

    Heart rates vary! If you are low on water, it will go up at the same training intensity (pace, if you will). If you are depleted of sugar, it will go down. If it is hot or you have too much clothing, it will go up at the same intensity, too. If you are nervous, it will go up because you are jacked with adrenaline. If you are overtrained and run hard, your legs may feel it but your heart rate may not be high enough to show you that you are straining because you are not producing adrenaline due to adrenal fatigue.

    Heart rate varies, depending on weather, fatigue, hydration status, and fitness level, so no perfect answer exists. However, here are some rough general guidelines:

    Recovery (Slow) = about 70-73% HR max (your current max)
    Easy = about 75-78% of max
    Long Tempo = about 84-86% of max
    Threshold = about 88-90% of max
    CV = about 92.5% of max
    VO2 max = about 97.5% of max

    Tergat


  • #36
    Condo131
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    Some excellent advice here, especially (but not limited to) Tergat's - take a bow!

    Your first marathon is a learning experience.

    Patience, patience, during the early stages of the marathon.

    I strongly advise using a 5M/10k just a few (3 to 4) weeks before your target marathon and run this as a practice run at target marathon pace. Aim to get each individual mile as close to target pace as possible. Don't worry about the finishing time - you're trying to get a feel for the actual pace. After doing this, I find it easier to get into the right rhythm on the day. *Remember* a huge number of people go out *way too fast* in any marathon. This will be compounded by the relay runners in Cork (especially with Boards AC trying to catch Golden Eagles :D:D:D (another gauntlet thrown down!)

    As tergat said, staying injury free, along with consistency, is absolutely vital.

    A decent marathon training plan will have a pretty heavy and increasing load - you need to ensure recovery and that means *recovery*. You CANNOT do a hard session or long run and do a hard run the next day. Your goal is now approx. 3.5 months away. You need to map out the entire period. Target some races as milestones in that period and taper/ease up slightly for those. Forget the other races, or just run through them, using them instead of hard workouts, but do NOT 'go to the well' on these. Patience, patience, patience.

    Again as Tergat says, use your CURRENT race times to guide your track sessions. If you use a pace that is too ambitious, you'll either be injured, or fatigued mentally and/or physically.

    In the Marathon itself, start off at target pace - absolutely no faster - and hold that till at least 20. You can then push on if you feel like it. At this stage it's critical to monitor and maintain body form/posture - sloppy form is far more tiring.

    One important word of warning: In a marathon, you *CANNOT* 'bank' time. Go out 10 mins too fast and you'll probably end up 30 slower.

    The good news is that Cork has got considerably flatter (continental drift an all that y'know :D) Seriously, the course has been 'tweaked' and some of the hills have gone, along with a good deal of the Model Farm Road and Carrigrohane (aka 'De Straight Road') sections. A full re-measurement is starting this weekend and an official unveiling will be announced soon. (I was asked to take down my 'sneak preview' so that it wouldn't take the wind out of the sails for the Official Launch - but I hope to do a detailed course description c/w photos shortly)


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  • #37
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    tergat wrote: »
    tisnotover,

    If you feel you can run 85 mins for a HM then 3.00-3.05 should be realistic with a good block of endurance training and getting to the start line healthy. I would use 6.55-7.00 min pace for now and revise as you get fitter.

    Remember the marathon starts at 20 miles so why not get there running 7 min miles and then if feeling good drop to 6.50's. best way to run it and be careful of the start. Be controlled that first few miles to save precious glycogen (stored sugar) which is burned almost exclusively at the beginning of the race. If you run too fast, early-on, then you ruin the whole race!

    Tergat

    Bringing back up a thread I started couple of months ago.
    In recent races i've ran 37:19 for 10k and 1:22:39 for half marathon.

    PMP runs are going well and have seen some progression w.r.t pace there being run at versus heart-rate and are feeling easier each time.

    Running under 1:23 would indicate sub-3hrs is manageable with right training. However, my thinking here still is to err on the cautious side !

    Tergat's post above of going out at 7min/mile pace to 20 or so seems solid and should be doable if conditions are right and i'm right on the day. Could then pick it up for last 10km if I have it in tank !

    I think that'll be my race strategy, be interested to hear other people's approaches. will continue to do PMP runs for next few weeks, not long to go now till June 7th !?! :eek:


  • #38
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,523 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Just to point out that 20 x 00:07:00 = 2:20, which leaves you with a sub-40 10k, to dip in under the three hour mark (picking up the pace to 6:25/mile). So if sub-three is your goal, you'd need to make sure you've done enough longs runs, picking up the pace towards the end of the long run, to be prepared for this kind of pace increase on tired legs.

    If getting 'near' to sub-3 is your goal, then it's a perfectly acceptable strategy, that will see you finish fast and comfortably, in a time you can be happy with.


  • #39
    KentuckyPete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭KentuckyPete


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Just to point out that 20 x 00:07:00 = 2:20, which leaves you with a sub-40 10k, to dip in under the three hour mark (picking up the pace to 6:25/mile). So if sub-three is your goal, you'd need to make sure you've done enough longs runs, picking up the pace towards the end of the long run, to be prepared for this kind of pace increase on tired legs.

    If getting 'near' to sub-3 is your goal, then it's a perfectly acceptable strategy, that will see you finish fast and comfortably, in a time you can be happy with.

    tisnotover, I'm a good bit short of 3:00 but I'd agree with Krusty on this one.
    I ran 3:14 in Rotterdam (race report here) by executing a similar strategy to what you're proposing - going at a steady pace out to 20 then giving it holly for the last 6. I felt good at 20 and was able to take advantage of a flat course and able to spring off a relatively comfortable pace.

    I think you need to be WAY within yourself at 7:00 pace to finish the last 6 at sub 40 10k pace.

    Granted, I did the whole thing at 20 seconds slower per mile than what you're planning but surely the technique and situation is similar. Also, if you get any problems along the route (like I did in the early part of the Rotterdam race), you're leaving it very tight to make up the ground.

    Another way to look at it is to say if you run to 20 miles at 7:00 pace you'd be well over three minutes behind someone running the exact target sub 3:00 pace. Could you really beat a fast-moving runner over the last 6 miles of a marathon by over 3 minutes? Presumably your final few long runs over the coming fortnight can tell you this.

    As I say, I'm 14 minutes behind your target so I'm far from the expert but thought this might help.


  • #40
    misty floyd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭misty floyd


    I've had a good few weeks to think about those damn 30 seconds (don't get me wrong, I'm still happy with my time). I think if I was to do it again I would still go out for the ~7:00 m/m for the first 3m and hit around 6:50/55ish to get to half way at no more than +45s (was +1:04 in Rotterdam). I wish I concentrated more on hitting PMP from miles 7-18. I'd still try hammer home at 18m. I really believe its the right thing for me. Its hard to know whats right as so much can happen in a race. Thats why targetting 2:55 - 2:58 (as mentioned by Krusty in sub 3 thread) is the best approach but when you feel you are so close to sub 3, that it is a fair but big ask, its not so easy or wise to target 2:55. Not that anyone is saying target 2:55 but you know what I mean.

    tno, ealier in this thread you mentioned a 3:15 goal and I commented thats its right to be conservative as its your first marathon. Upon reflection (what do I know?) and seeing how much you've improved I'd like to take that back;). Hard to know what to do isn't it? I really like the controlled start, concentrate on even pace in the middle and then let it rip approach.


  • #41
    misty floyd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭misty floyd


    /\ thats a load of balls really. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Only one way to know Tno is to go with what feels right....what sits well in your head, then go try to execute it.


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  • #42
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    Tx for feedback, I wrote above like capturing my train of thought since the half !

    Its a difficult one to call at moment, but my first instinct would be that i'd be happy to be close to 3hr mark, like 3:00->3:05.

    we'll see how the next couple of weeks go like and make a better call on it when we get to taper time, must chat to coach later anyhow, he said I was conservative about my approach to the half last week and he was damn right on that one!

    I finished ahead of a couple of club-mates on Sunday, one by ~3mins and he's going out at 6:40 pace for Cork (to break 3hrs), that I can't fathom at all, but the difference between him and me is that he's an experience marathon runner!

    7mins/mile upto half way would be 1:31:4x or so, in fairness, that does seem doable, the race is only starting from that point in my mind though !

    Cork will give a good few stories of atempts in/around and under 3hr mark, be interesting to see how we all get on !

    (The mcmillan calcualtor should never have been invented ;) )


  • #43
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,523 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    In my last raced marathon, I finished my last 10k in just over 40 mins (40:29) and I had a very strong finish, my last 5k split being my fastest, to finish in 2:55.

    I like Misty's suggestion/approach: 7 min/mile for th first few miles, and if feeling great, pick it up a small bit for the next 5, and then re-assess every 5 miles. It will bring you closer to your goal, while still moving up in a controlled fashion.
    Lets say you do something like the following:
    5 Miles @7mm=35:00
    5 Miles @6:55=34:35
    5 Miles @6:50=34:10
    5 Miles @6:50=34:10
    Total=2:17:55
    That leaves you 42 minutes to cover the remaining 10k. I'm not saying you should follow the above exactly, just the general approach. If after the first 5 miles, you don't feel happy increasing to 6:55/mile, then stick with 7min/mile until/if you do.


  • #44
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    Looks interesting Krusty, thanks. Must read over the "sub-3" thread later as well, as there was some discussions there on pacing as well like.

    Misty and your approach is solid and is based on how you feel at each point in race, pushing on when you feel good and steadying when not.
    It might be better than trying to flat-target say 6:4x min/mile for the full 26.2miles and fading, with hindsight telling ya your PMP pace was too aggressive for that day.


  • #45
    misty floyd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭misty floyd


    When you look at the two approaches (even splits V Slower/steady/let it rip), there are pro's and cons to both.

    - Its hard to run faster when you've just run 20miles. Yes.
    - Setting an even pace approach, doing that and getting to the end thinking, "that pace was too aggresive for me". The flip side is you could get to the end doing the other approach and say to yourself, "I should have gone faster earlier".
    - There are lots more pro's and con's

    The deciding factor for me is the comfort in knowing that you are not cooking too early. Its only an extra half a minute or so by half way but knowing* that you won't blow up is comforting and you always have the option of taking it easy if the PMP that you thought was right, isn't. Its always good to be in control yourself and not have your body dictate what happens.

    *you don't know:D


  • #46
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    misty floyd wrote: »
    When you look at the two approaches (even splits V Slower/steady/let it rip), there are pro's and cons to both.

    - Its hard to run faster when you've just run 20miles. Yes.
    - Setting an even pace approach, doing that and getting to the end thinking, "that pace was too aggresive for me". The flip side is you could get to the end doing the other approach and say to yourself, "I should have gone faster earlier".
    - There are lots more pro's and con's

    The deciding factor for me is the comfort in knowing that you are not cooking too early. Its only an extra half a minute or so by half way but knowing* that you won't blow up is comforting and you always have the option of taking it easy if the PMP that you thought was right, isn't. Its always good to be in control yourself and not have your body dictate what happens.

    *you don't know:D

    I still go with your approach Misty! If I look at it this way: If some-one told me to go for sub 1:23 on Sunday and go out at that target pace, I would have told them they were mad. I went out at 1:24 pace, got over the main hill, felt fine and pushed on to finish strong in under 1:23. The same type of approach I will have to take for this marathon if ya get my drift.

    God I wish I had a marathon under my belt...if anything else this will be a learning experience !


  • #47
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    tisnotover wrote: »
    PMP runs are going well and have seen some progression w.r.t pace there being run at versus heart-rate and are feeling easier each time.

    Running under 1:23 would indicate sub-3hrs is manageable with right training. However, my thinking here still is to err on the cautious side !

    Go for Sub 3. Your PMP runs are at sub 3 pace, so you have the specificity of training. Also, your LSR's are nice and slowly run plus you have been doing decent length runs every weekend consistently since about last July so you have a very solid base to your marathon training. I think you are naturally more of a long distance endurance runner than a fast 3k or 5k runner, so to be honest, i think its fair to say your HM marathon time is a fair indicator of sub 3 capability (actually indicates 2:55 so you ARE being conservative by going for sub 3).

    Run first 2-3 miles steady, 7:00 pace and then ease into sub 3 pace. I think you'll regret it later not going for it.


  • #48
    brownian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭brownian


    I'll stick my neck out here and suggest that it's not easy to aim for 3:05, or "near 3" - at that level, you're surely in the sub-3 objective zone, in your heart of hearts. And even though you'll be happy to get 3:05 or whatever in your first marathon (a serious achievement!), you'll wonder if you shouldn't have gone harder.

    Every runner is different, but I think it might be hard to make up serious amounts of time if you deliberately aim for a half-way split of more than 1:30. While you'll have read here that it's not possible to "bank" time in a marathon, I do think it's possible to put yourself in an ugly overdraft situation. Given your track record so far, in your position I'd be looking to run the first half in sub-90 minutes, maybe 88 or 89. Then to chug on to mile 22 or 23, then put the boot down with whatever you've got. The last 10km is a looong way, I've certainly found it infeasible to up the pace substantially from M20 onwards; the last couple of miles you can run on adrenaline and that "nothing left to lose" feeling. That's very subjective, and you may find that you can in fact pull a sub-40 last 10km out of the bag - though in that case maybe you should have been aiming for 2:50!!

    Apart from avoiding the time overdraft issue, the other thing I'd be inclined to look out for (given your solid HM pace) is not to go too fast in M3-M13. If you go through half way in 1:25, you may feel that you've a great reserve, but you'd better be really really strong. Hold back, and if you still feel powerful at 18, then go up a notch from M18 to M23, then let loose.

    Best of luck on your run - regardless of the final clock time, it's a great sense of accomplishment.


  • #49
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    @Gringo78 and @Brownian

    Thanks for advice lads, will have to strongly consider it now I think, prob right that I'd regret it after if I finished in 3:03, especially if I finished strong last 10km strong to hit that time.

    I'd agree on the "long distance runner" bit Gringo, saw that as well last year when I raced the Cork to Cobh 15miler, and it felt good like.

    A couple of solid weeks training now and we'll be in good shape to give it a go.


  • #50
    OuterBombie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭OuterBombie


    Great Thread, I missed it the first time and am enjoying reading it this morning.

    I have two sub-3's under my belt from the DCM.

    One negative split (1:31/1:27) and one positive split (1:26/1:31).

    The negative split was my first marathon, I had 10k and half times similar to yourself (37/1:23). I went out with the start slow, built through 14-19 and then held the pace for the last 10k.

    The positive split was my third marathon and I was hoping for around 2:55, I probably started a bit too fast, just a shade but in hindsight it was too fast, got to halfway, pushed to 18/19 and then the lights went out, the last 10K were a nightmare, ok I got in under the 3 but I was reduced to a walk in the last mile with total leg cramp :eek:, lovely!

    I came away from the first with a great feeling of accomplishment, eager to train more and push the time in the future. I came away from the second one, busted, barely able to walk for a week and dejected.

    I've learned my lesson, start off well within my ability and build steadily through the race. I guess its not so much building as not slowing down as much as everyone else!

    The mental positive's of feeling (relatively) good, running steadily and overtaking people in that last 10k are the way to go, compared to suffering, running in pain from lamppost to lamppost and been overtaken.

    It'll take discipline to hold back in the first hour so having your goal pace and mental strategy plan solid and ready to rock is so important.

    Once the training is done the path to a solid race is all in the head.

    After that the old mantra kicks in "You don't have to feel good to do good!"

    Enjoy it.


  • #51
    Sosa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    OuterBombie wrote: »
    Great Thread, I missed it the first time and am enjoying reading it this morning.

    I have two sub-3's under my belt from the DCM.

    One negative split (1:31/1:27) and one positive split (1:26/1:31).

    The negative split was my first marathon, I had 10k and half times similar to yourself (37/1:23). I went out with the start slow, built through 14-19 and then held the pace for the last 10k.

    The positive split was my third marathon and I was hoping for around 2:55, I probably started a bit too fast, just a shade but in hindsight it was too fast, got to halfway, pushed to 18/19 and then the lights went out, the last 10K were a nightmare, ok I got in under the 3 but I was reduced to a walk in the last mile with total leg cramp :eek:, lovely!

    I came away from the first with a great feeling of accomplishment, eager to train more and push the time in the future. I came away from the second one, busted, barely able to walk for a week and dejected.

    I've learned my lesson, start off well within my ability and build steadily through the race. I guess its not so much building as not slowing down as much as everyone else!

    The mental positive's of feeling (relatively) good, running steadily and overtaking people in that last 10k are the way to go, compared to suffering, running in pain from lamppost to lamppost and been overtaken.

    It'll take discipline to hold back in the first hour so having your goal pace and mental strategy plan solid and ready to rock is so important.

    Once the training is done the path to a solid race is all in the head.

    After that the old mantra kicks in "You don't have to feel good to do good!"

    Enjoy it.

    This sounds like very good advice,Tis

    I wish i read it before Dublin last year.
    Your clearly capable of at least getting very close to sub 3,if not under it.

    IF i had my time back,i would have started conservatively and tried to pick it up.That way i would not have blown up and probably have finished sub 3:05 if not closer.

    There are loads of us on here on the cusp of 3:00...but its no mean feat,look how few here do it....Krusty,Village Runner,Asimonov.....look who have missed out.....Amadeus,Peckham,Misty,Slogger.
    I dont even include the likes of abhainn,Heffsarmy and Dermcu...who are a level above 3:00

    I would heir on the side of caution.
    You have one main objective in Cork and its not sub 3.
    Its to have a good first marathon experience.
    If that gets you 3:05...what a fantastic achievement that would be.
    Sub 3 for your next one then.
    All your training and races have progressed very well over time.

    Thats just my opinion based on my first marathon.
    I wish now that i took that approach last year.


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  • #52
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    @ OuterBombie, Thanks for the post, some great advice there and will def take it on board, you had some very strong running in second half of that first marathon, great going!

    @ Sosa, A very good post thank you, last nite I went back over your log upto DCM last year and my times at moment are very similar to yours back then, even the mileage leading in is similar?

    Unfortunately, there is no way of telling how it'll go on the day until i'm out there, and to that end, starting steady and picking things up if things are comfortable is probably the way to go.
    As a couple of lads said to me last nite at training, it is only my first marathon, i'm young-ish (29 this month), so plenty of time for future marathons, main thing is to enjoy it, like all other races we do (exception 5k's, have never enjoyed a 5k! ;) )

    As always, the advice on this forum is priceless, great stuff! :D


  • #53
    aero2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Hi tno,

    This is a great thread, and the views above, on both sides of the arguement, are very well expressed and compelling. There's only one way to find out for sure...
    I'll give you my opinion which is just that - an opinion, as I can't prove it scientifically. I favour Krusty's approach above, i.e. taking 3 miles or so to settle in at approx 7:00 pace then getting down to 6:50. I had a plan along those lines for DCM '09 - in fact as I was very familiar with the 4 miles through the Phoenix Park (miles 5-8) and figured it would be possible to make up 45 secs there, I decided that I'd be happy with a first mile of 7:30-7:40. On the day the first mile was 6:50 and it felt fine. The bit in italics is the important point. I know we all worry about blowing up around 20 miles, but my guess is that this is caused by running a few miles well in excess of target pace, rather than lots of miles maybe 5 sec too fast. I had major problems in '08, but I was under pressure from about 5 miles trying to keep to schedule, and a 6:30 mile around mile 14 killed me. In '09 I probably checked the watch at least 100 times (at the time I felt I was only having the odd glance) and I was on track every time until around mile 23 where I briefly drifted over 7:00/mile. More importantly, I felt fine, and didn't feel as if I was pushing it. (Of course I was increasingly fatigued as the race went on, but in a nice way)
    I think you need to take psychological factors into account. I think it was a huge benefit for me to have hit those first miles at average 6:50 - all I had to do then was keep that pace, not worry about speeding up. Again, this is a subjective view.
    Have a look at the profile, make a plan - I memorised the 5 mile splits I wanted to hit to allow for different gradients, wind etc - and be prepared to adjust up or down depending on how you feel on the day.


  • #54
    smmoore79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭smmoore79


    Yep, agree that this is a very good thread. Id air on the side of aiming for slightly under sub 3 if i were you Tis. Your shorter distance times suggest that you have it in you for sub 3. Whether ya do or dont get sub 3 on the day, at least you'll have gained the experience of doin the marathon. You'll know what adjustments are needed for the next one. On my last marathon, i finished 3hrs 10 mins but was aiming for sub 3. What i learnt from that experience was;

    1. I didnt do enough mileage in training (equal or less than 35m pw)
    2. I started too fast - 1 hr 27 at 13.1 miles and ended up stopping twice in the last 3 miles.
    3. I should have bought a decent stop watch to accurately tell my pace at all times. Without 1, i tended to naturally speed up.


  • #55
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    @aero2k, great post tx ! Be interested to hear what your half and full splits were ? The thing about it feeling fine is an interesting one for first 3 miles. In the half I did, I was at 6:25min/mile pace for first 3miles+that felt fine.

    @ smmoore79, tx for advice, especially on what you learnt from your 3:10 marathon.

    What will be difficult is to hold back to 7:00min/mile pace, especially running down Patrick's street, adrenaline and everything else on race day. I guess thats what PMP runs are for though, to teach ya what pace is to feel like. Gives me an idea for a PMP training run, aim for 7:00 for first 3miles before picking it up to 6:55->6:50.


  • #56
    aero2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭aero2k


    tisnotover wrote: »
    Be interested to hear what your half and full splits were ?
    10k 1/2, 30k, full
    42:32 1:29:31 2:07:14 2:58:55 ('09)
    44:19 1:32:24 2:13:00 3:22:19 ('08)

    expressed in average pace per km

    10k 1/2 30k full
    4:26 4:23 4:26 4:48 ('08)
    4:15 4:15 4:14 4:15 ('09)
    tisnotover wrote: »
    What will be difficult is to hold back to 7:00min/mile pace, especially running down Patrick's street, adrenaline and everything else on race day. I guess thats what PMP runs are for though, to teach ya what pace is to feel like.
    That is a problem. I nearly sh1t myself in DCM '09 when I looked at the Garmin after 200m and saw I was on a 6:00 mile! Make sure it feels easy at the start, and don't panic if it's too slow - you'll still have 26 miles to sort it out. Have you got a Garmin?


  • #57
    tisnotover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭tisnotover


    aero2k wrote: »
    10k 1/2, 30k, full
    42:32 1:29:31 2:07:14 2:58:55 ('09)
    44:19 1:32:24 2:13:00 3:22:19 ('08)

    expressed in average pace per km

    10k 1/2 30k full
    4:26 4:23 4:26 4:48 ('08)
    4:15 4:15 4:14 4:15 ('09)


    That is a problem. I nearly sh1t myself in DCM '09 when I looked at the Garmin after 200m and saw I was on a 6:00 mile! Make sure it feels easy at the start, and don't panic if it's too slow - you'll still have 26 miles to sort it out. Have you got a Garmin?

    tx for splits !

    I've a garmin alrite, which I see as a life-saver lately. Will print off target splits as well for the 26miles, so I can compare at mile marks.


  • #58
    Sosa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭Sosa


    tisnotover wrote: »
    tx for splits !

    I've a garmin alrite, which I see as a life-saver lately. Will print off target splits as well for the 26miles, so I can compare at mile marks.

    http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/marathonpaceguide/0,7167,s6-239-283-317-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

    this will do it for you ....i had one last year and ripped it off during one of my walks late on.


  • #59
    misty floyd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭misty floyd


    tisnotover wrote: »
    tx for splits !

    I've a garmin alrite, which I see as a life-saver lately. Will print off target splits as well for the 26miles, so I can compare at mile marks.

    Keep looking at the garmin for the first couple of miles. I fecked up and ran a 6:07 second mile at Rotterdam. Was dodging people, missed the km markers and ran the second mile to what I thought was the same effort as the first (around 7:10). Couldn't believe it, should have kept an eye on the watch but the plan was to use the pace band. That too was another mistake...make sure the font is big enough to read when running.

    These are mistakes I made, hopefully you won't but I don't know if they would cause time loss overall. Just wee tips.


  • #60
    DustyBin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭DustyBin


    aero2k wrote: »

    expressed in average pace per km

    10k 1/2 30k full

    4:15 4:15 4:14 4:15 ('09)

    Wow, like a machine!

    You said earlier aero2k that you were constantly checking your garmin for pace feedback. It obviously worked because the proofs in the splits up above. Question is do you reckon that it might have burnt up restless/needless energy on you?
    Reason being that I tend to constantly run by my watch when racing or running to a target pace in training, and am just worried that the constant checking of speed and adjusting of pace might use up energy that over the course of a marathon I cant afford to be wasting. What do you think?


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  • #61
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    DustyBin wrote: »
    Reason being that I tend to constantly run by my watch when racing or running to a target pace in training, and am just worried that the constant checking of speed and adjusting of pace might use up energy that over the course of a marathon I cant afford to be wasting. What do you think?

    Great thread. I'd be interesting in hearing some opinions on Dusty's question re running to race pace. Constantly adjusting my pace to get it 'right' on the garmin.


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