PMP Workouts and Pace

tisnotover

Something i've been thinking about lately...

Hoping to do 1st marathon in Cork this year. At moment, McMillan would say i'm on for a 2:58 marathon based on my 10mile time, thats say 6:48min/mile pace, ridiculous:

Reality check its Cork (heat!), its your first marathon, so maybe with right training, actual PMP will be 7:15min/mile for close to 3:10, I don't even want to think about sub-3, maybe some other time!

Question:
Should you train at the 7:15min/mile pace, or faster for PMP workouts. I'm thinking of training for about 6:48/6:50 pace as that is where I'm at relative to the tempo/interval workouts I do, but again on marathon day, to drop back to 7:15 pace???

--amadeus--

Sounds like you are approaching this the right way. IMO train at the intensity McMillan recommends on the assumption you have the background to manage it. As in fast tempo, PMP and interval sessions are tough on the body and that combined with the increased mileage loads of a first marathon program can cause overuse injuries to develop quite quickly.

Assuming that you are able to maintain the 6:48 / PMP training then that is certainly the way to go, for a couple of reasons. First you aren't closing off options - who knows with decent weather and a changed course maybe sub 3 on the day could happen, but it won't if you haven't trained for it. And training slightly faster than PMP means that PMP itself feels a little easier on teh day. In my last race I was targeting 6:50s for sub 3 but tried to maintain sub 6:45 on my PMP runs. On the day the course was measured in kms and 4:15 min/kms (sub 3 pace) felt quite comfortable. Well for the first 23 miles anyway

On the day you can always set off at 7:15 (or even 7:10 or 7:05) pace and pick it up towards the end if you feel good. Trust me, it's better to finish a marathon strongly than set out too fast and suffer at the end.

Krusty_Clown

Far from an expert, but as you progress on your marathon training plan, you'll get an idea of how comfortable you feel at PMP pace. The problem with a MacMillan equivalent time is that it assumes that you have done the appropriate training for the distance/pace you are trying to achieve, which in this case is lots of heavy mileage. If you don't do the appropriate training, all the MacMillan predictions in the world won't mean a thing.

You obviously have a solid 10 mile time, so have some natural ability or a predisposition for solid training, so why not set out with the goal of aiming for 2:58, and as the training program progresses adjust your target upwards or downwards? You might find with marathon mileage that your target may become more aggressive. Do a 10k, 10mile and half-marathon along the way which will also give you more information about an appropriate target pace.

Maybe avoid making out loud predictions about your marathon time until later in the schedule, so you avoid committing yourself to a time that may not be achievable. Tell people that you're aiming for 3:10, but train for 2:58 and see how it goes. Only make your decision in the final weeks leading up to the race. Your first marathon is a tough one, as you don't know what to expect. Your second marathon is the one for which you really want to start setting agressive goals.

Sosa

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Trust me, it's better to finish a marathon strongly than set out too fast and suffer at the end.

Since i made a mebs of Dublin,i now have a different approach to 10m and half marathons.
Start easy and then start passing people occasionaly,then over the last 3 miles or so push on with what you have in the tank.
Every person you pass...its like if you rob any energy they may have left in there bodies and use it for yourself (thats how i felt for the half in dec and the dungarvan 10 last week.)
People start looking over there shoulder ant this person blowing by them,its a great feeling...i have only got that feeling in my last 2 races,heres hoping it stays that way.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Far from an expert, but as you progress on your marathon training plan, you'll get an idea of how comfortable you feel at PMP pace. The problem with a MacMillan equivalent time is that it assumes that you have done the appropriate training for the distance/pace you are trying to achieve, which in this case is lots of heavy mileage. If you don't do the appropriate training, all the MacMillan predictions in the world won't mean a thing.

You obviously have a solid 10 mile time, so have some natural ability or a predisposition for solid training, so why not set out with the goal of aiming for 2:58, and as the training program progresses adjust your target upwards or downwards? You might find with marathon mileage that your target may become more aggressive. Do a 10k, 10mile and half-marathon along the way which will also give you more information about an appropriate target pace.

Maybe avoid making out loud predictions about your marathon time until later in the schedule, so you avoid committing yourself to a time that may not be achievable. Tell people that you're aiming for 3:10, but train for 2:58 and see how it goes. Only make your decision in the final weeks leading up to the race. Your first marathon is a tough one, as you don't know what to expect. Your second marathon is the one for which you really want to start setting agressive goals.

+1 Krusty...you saved me typing all that out.

Train harder than your target time tissy and then see how the weather is on the day and how you feel yourself.

Gringo78

I came accross the following before someplace and for me, it seems to hold reasonably true. Most calculators including McMillan use the factor 4.7 times 10km time = marathon time. However, for the marathon, its reckoned that factor only holds true if you do >60mpw. You should adjust with the following factors according to your weekly mileage. In a way its a correction factor as to how effective you marathon training is (i.e you cannot be training optimally for a marathon if you are only doing 30-35mpw)

30-35 mpw 5.5
40 mpw 5.0-5.3
55 mpw 4.9
60 mpw 4.75-4.85
70 mpw 4.7-4.8
80-100 mpw 4.55-4.65

In 2009 I ran a 10km in 38:54. McMillan would have predicted 3:02. However, as I only did 30mpw per week training, the above factor 5.5 would have actually predicted 3:34. I actually ran 3:26.

McMillan predicts a 3 hr marathon from a 64min 10mile. However, for me, I only will average max 45mpw in marathon training therefore I reckon I need to be running sub 60 for 10 miles to run a sub 3hr marathon. For others, a 65min 10 mile would be enough with 70mpw training.

If you were to train 45-50mpw then I reckon 7:10-7:15 pace would be right for you for cork in the heat, but if you were to up it to 60mpw I reckon you'd be good for sub 3 hr. Even though its your first marathon, you train very smart and consistently but more than that, you already do a decent long run 10-13miles every week outside of marathon training and your short course times have transferred into proportionally as fast 10 milers and HM's so I reckon endurance is not going to be a problem for you.

--amadeus--

Gringo78 wrote: »

30-35 mpw 5.5
40 mpw 5.0-5.3
55 mpw 4.9
60 mpw 4.75-4.85
70 mpw 4.7-4.8
80-100 mpw 4.55-4.65

Interesting - I hadn't seen that before and it makes a lot of sense. Did you work out the factors or is that from somewhere?

meathcountysec

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

Gringo78

meathcountysec wrote: »

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

As far as i can tell, the mileage/age/sex is just data collecting by McMillan, its not factored into the equation. Maybe he is intending to build up an archive of data but its kinda useless unless he gets people to input 2 actual race results rather than one.

tisnotover

Thanks for feedback guys.

Krusty, Amadeus, Sosa, will approach PMP runs as you say, if its too much (impacting rest of runs in week), then will revise pace. Key thing, as PMP runs are all new to me, is to see how they start to fit in to training plan..also agree that the marathon pace for the day, can be decided on much much later, there's a long way to go yet...

@ Gringo, very interesting on mileage/week and it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Would hope to build to 50miles/week and on way race UCC 10k and maybe a half marathon. Will know better how things are going from that.

Krusty_Clown

meathcountysec wrote: »

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

AFAIK, they only collect that data to do a little bit of market research (and in fact it's gone from the site already).
Otherwise, they'd have a lot of females who run 10-15 miles per week aiming for sub-3 (the first options in their drop-down lists!).

Gringo78

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Interesting - I hadn't seen that before and it makes a lot of sense. Did you work out the factors or is that from somewhere?

Will try to dig out the link again...it was based on data collected by some guy. Interestingly though the factors did not apply to himself, he was able to manage a factor of 4.7 iirc off 40-50mpw per week training. His suggestion was however that after 3-4 marathons you could work out what factors worked for you. There are other things to take into account also, the quality of your training etc. I did 20-25mpw training aug - jan but they were a hell of a lot better quality than the 30mpw I did for the marathon in mar-june. If I had done 60mpw back then I would have probably just got injured rather than getting a better marathon time.

macinalli

tisnotover wrote: »

Would hope to build to 50miles/week and on way race UCC 10k and maybe a half marathon. Will know better how things are going from that.

Can only dream of a 3 hr marathon but have gone through the grind of marathon training. Regardless of whatever pace you're settling on, I think that 2-3 races over the ~4month training programme are essential for keeping you focussed with the training. Every now and again it's great just to be able to go out and run and not spending your Fridays thinking of a 15-20 miler the next morning...

misty floyd

Thanks, I'm getting lots from this thread too. Tisnotover, I'm in the same boat as you (apart from this being your first marathon) regarding times. I said I wouldn't, but I'm starting to think about predictions/paces etc etc.

Doing PMP runs at McMillan's pace makes sence and I'm glad others have said so. I am taking this approach and will run at 3:10 marathon pace and see how that feels by 20m. If I were you, I would run at 7:15m/m regardless of how training is going. I'm no expert but I think its important to run a sensible marathon.....especially the first. Having blown up twice, I did learn a lot but I think I would have learned more if I ran conservativly. Even splits would be perfect but you can never be sure what pace to run at unless you have run one or more marathons .....surely??.

I'm doing 60 mile weeks but I'm not prepared to play with fire. I'll see how 7:15m/m feels up to 20, pick it up if I can and finish knowing what I can do with 60mile week averages. I'll know where I stand for DCM 2010.

Krusty_Clown

You're making potentially incorrect assumptions here though. 2:58 may be the original posters sensible marathon, with 2:50 being the 'blow-up option'. I don't think we can advise somebody on their specific pace, as it's a very individual variable (and is very much coloured by our own experiences). All we can do is provide advice on tactics and strategy, e.g. run at a comfortable heart rate, long runs at PMP+20% etc.

Also, we shouldn't try and limit an individual's potential. If someone feels they can break that sub-3 in their first outing, that's their own decision, responsibility and of course risk. I'm sure the OP runs a much faster 10 mile than I do. I'm targeting a sub-3 in a few weeks time, so why shouldn't they?

misty floyd

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You're making potentially incorrect assumptions here though. 2:58 may be the original posters sensible marathon, with 2:50 being the 'blow-up option'. I don't think we can advise somebody on their specific pace, as it's a very individual variable (and is very much coloured by our own experiences). All we can do is provide advice on tactics and strategy, e.g. run at a comfortable heart rate, long runs at PMP+20% etc.

Also, we shouldn't try and limit an individual's potential. If someone feels they can break that sub-3 in their first outing, that's their own decision, responsibility and of course risk. I'm sure the OP runs a much faster 10 mile than I do. I'm targeting a sub-3 in a few weeks time, so why shouldn't they?

you are right Krusty but I was just saying what I would do. I took advice from lots of people here about what pace I should do for DCM....I ran near it or at it and bang, disaster. My advice was to be cautious, thats all.

Krusty_Clown

You're exactly right with the philosophy/strategy. It's just the implementation that differs from person to person. (If this was a game of w@nk-words bingo, that's one race I'd win).

My views always tend to be influenced by where I am at a particular point in my training. Right now, it's all [be all that you can be][live up to your potential] and other Nike-like slogans.

In a couple of weeks time, it could all be: [Take the safer option, finishing is more important than failure][A race is a good run spoiled].

tisnotover

misty floyd wrote: »

Thanks, I'm getting lots from this thread too. Tisnotover, I'm in the same boat as you (apart from this being your first marathon) regarding times. I said I wouldn't, but I'm starting to think about predictions/paces etc etc.

Doing PMP runs at McMillan's pace makes sence and I'm glad others have said so. I am taking this approach and will run at 3:10 marathon pace and see how that feels by 20m. If I were you, I would run at 7:15m/m regardless of how training is going. I'm no expert but I think its important to run a sensible marathon.....especially the first. Having blown up twice, I did learn a lot but I think I would have learned more if I ran conservativly. Even splits would be perfect but you can never be sure what pace to run at unless you have run one or more marathons .....surely??.

I'm doing 60 mile weeks but I'm not prepared to play with fire. I'll see how 7:15m/m feels up to 20, pick it up if I can and finish knowing what I can do with 60mile week averages. I'll know where I stand for DCM 2010.

Its a sound approach Misty and I would feel more aligned to your approach of putting in a solid first marathon, review it and the training leading upto it and take things from there for the next one...

Its enough in this poster's head at moment, to just step up and start getting the longer runs in, increased weekly mileage and PMP runs. (the marathon day thoughts on pacing can come later...)

KentuckyPete

This is a great thread lads - thanks.

I reckon MacMillan doesn't mean much without 60miles per week - a distance I don't have time to cover. I'm looking at managing 45-50 mpw before the taper for Rotterdam so Gringo's adjusted Macmillan weighting is excellent for me.

Am aiming for 3:20 to 3:15 on the day (7:24-7:36 minute miles) so am doing PMP runs at 7:15.

Doing LSRs at 8:00

Now I'm off to apply the Gringo weighting to my MacMillan numbers

BeepBeep67

meathcountysec wrote: »

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

Is that endurance or speed ?

tergat

tisnotover wrote: »

Something i've been thinking about lately...

Hoping to do 1st marathon in Cork this year. At moment, McMillan would say i'm on for a 2:58 marathon based on my 10mile time, thats say 6:48min/mile pace, ridiculous:

Reality check its Cork (heat!), its your first marathon, so maybe with right training, actual PMP will be 7:15min/mile for close to 3:10, I don't even want to think about sub-3, maybe some other time!

Question:
Should you train at the 7:15min/mile pace, or faster for PMP workouts. I'm thinking of training for about 6:48/6:50 pace as that is where I'm at relative to the tempo/interval workouts I do, but again on marathon day, to drop back to 7:15 pace???

tisnotover,

Interesting question and having looked over your post I advise to be very careful with running faster than CURRENT Marathon pace in workouts. This is a 'grey' area just like junk mileage is. In training you should be running one of the following paces and have a reason for it:
- Recovery Pace
- Easy Pace
- Marathon Pace
- Half Marathon Pace
- LT (Lactate Threshold) Pace
- CV (Critical Velocity) Pace
- 10km Pace
- 5km Pace
- 3km (Vo2 Max) Pace
- 400m-1500m (Speed) Paces

Each has a role to play and affects our bodys phsiology differently. If you are running a Marathon and have done a block of training aimed at 5km-10km training then your last 8-12 week block should be aimed at CV, HM and Marathon paces included in long workouts and long runs. These are the paces that will give you the most 'bang for your buck' for the Marathon.

When doing workouts at Marathon pace ALWAYS use todays (CURRENT) Marathon pace and NOT GOAL Marathon pace. Revise this as you get fitter. Going into a marathon aiming for a pace that is unrealistic is madness. Also trying to run 'Marathon' workouts in training at faster than your current Marathon pace is not a good idea. You will more than likely be running closer to HM pace and thus have completely different running mechanics and be burning more glycogen (which is not what you want to do). You need to get your body efficient at running CURRENT marathon pace and teach it to utilise fats better and spare precious glycogen stores.

Real Life Case:
My friend decided to run his first Marathon in Dublin and was convinced he could run 6.00-6.05 per mile for the 26.2 miles. He regularly trained at 6.00-6.10 pace doing longer workouts such as 3-4*3 Miles etc and found them 'tough'. i tried to explain to him that he was running at his HM pace and not marathon pace and he should be running 6.25-6.30 pace. He couldnt see it and started off in Dublin running 6.10's and working down to 6.05's by 10 miles feeling ok. He hit 12 miles and bang race over. The point is you need to be REALISTIC and use CURRENT paces in training not GOAL paces. Aim for a HM about 4-6 weeks before the big race and report back here and we'll be able to confirm your race day pace for you.

Also be careful with running paces faster than 10km pace leading up to the marathon. It isn't that 5km-3km paced workouts are "bad" for marathon runners it's that they are abused, typically. From a physiological stance, running well in the marathon requires suppression of glucose and glycogen burning rates. You have a limited supply of sugar, that is, and you can't burn it up too fast. If you set the thermostat high, it burns hot! VO2 max types of workouts set the thermostat high. It's ok to include some 3k to 5k running, but not much should be done, in my opinion, during the 10 weeks prior to the marathon. Just enough to improve leg strength, that's it!

I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big (Long) Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 80-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 80-90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

Hope that helps.

Tergat

aero2k

tergat wrote: »

In training you should be running one of the following paces and have a reason for it:
- Recovery Pace
- Easy Pace
- Marathon Pace
- Half Marathon Pace
- LT (Lactate Threshold) Pace
- CV (Critical Velocity) Pace
- 10km Pace
- 5km Pace
- 3km (Vo2 Max) Pace
- 400m-1500m (Speed) Paces

Hi tergat,

I'm reluctant to aks someone who's already contributed so much to a range of discussions for more detail, but I think it might be really helpful to lots of people on here if you could elaborate on the various paces above and the purpose of each. I'm particularly interested in CV pace - what it is and when and why I should use it. I have a very simple and crude approach to training which has been effective so far, but I think I'm reaching the point of diminishing returns and so I may have to take a different tack after Edinburgh.

tisnotover,

I think there's a lot of good advice above. I can second tergat's story about HMP vs MP - I reckon the marathon would be 20-30 sec per mile slower than HMP for someone with your 10 mile time.
It depends on your mindset as well as your physical ability. If you've got your heart set on achieving a goal time, then maybe you should be conservative. If you want to give yourself a chance at the fastest possible time, then maybe use McMillan, but be prepared for the possibility of it all going horribly wrong any time from 16 miles on (blowing up even happens to experienced marathoners). I found that hard to deal with after DCM '08, but maybe if I'd gone in feeling "ah, sure I'll give it a go and sure if I have to walk a bit, no harm done" I wouldn't have been so devastated. Keep up your disciplined training program, do a half marathon 5 or 6 weeks before the marathon, and use that to come up with a realistic PMP.
Also, regarding the weather, I'm told it hit 18 deg in places during DCM '09 but I wasn't conscious of it. I know Cork has been hot for the last two years, but that's not guaranteed for this year. Heat doesn't seem to be a huge problem if you're well prepared - I think the womens' winner last year was well under 3 hrs, and she's over 50!

tisnotover

@ Tergat,

Thanks again for the detailed post, the last time I posted something like this here was asking "How best to improve my 5-mile time", which worked and now look what i'm jumping into !?!

So if I try and put some numbers on it, my current 10mile PB is 63:30, 6:21 pace. I feel I could run 6:25-> 6:30 pace (1.24 / 1.25) for a half marathon at present.

I think the example you gave of the distinction between HMP and PMP agrees with what aero2k just posted also.

For the times listed, this would mean doing PMP runs at 6:50 -> 7:00 pace, which sounds reasonable to me...??

@ aero2k, tx for the post

--amadeus--

Like Aero I'd be really interested in a more detailed breakdown of the paces used, especially CV.

Likewise I'd like some clarity on the idea of not training faster than goal pace. I can understand teh difference if you are training massively too quickly (as in a sub 3 running doing "PMP" runs at 6:30 - 6:40 rather than 6:48 - 6:50) but is there danger to training a few seconds per mile (say a max of 5) faster than PMP? As I said above I have done this so that PMP feels comfortable, is a few secs per mile really going to shift you through the zones?

Finally if running faster than PMP is not advised then what are your recommendations for moving up to aggressive marathon targets? There are a few of us here looking to move from ~3:00 to 2:55 and 2:50 (VR, Krusty and myself for a start) how do you recommend we do so? My method in the past has been to train to planned pace to push myself on but it sounds like you think this is a bad idea. How should you train to PB?

Much appreciated!!

tergat

aero2k wrote: »

Hi tergat,

I'm reluctant to aks someone who's already contributed so much to a range of discussions for more detail, but I think it might be really helpful to lots of people on here if you could elaborate on the various paces above and the purpose of each. I'm particularly interested in CV pace - what it is and when and why I should use it. I have a very simple and crude approach to training which has been effective so far, but I think I'm reaching the point of diminishing returns and so I may have to take a different tack after Edinburgh.

tisnotover,

I think there's a lot of good advice above. I can second tergat's story about HMP vs MP - I reckon the marathon would be 20-30 sec per mile slower than HMP for someone with your 10 mile time.
It depends on your mindset as well as your physical ability. If you've got your heart set on achieving a goal time, then maybe you should be conservative. If you want to give yourself a chance at the fastest possible time, then maybe use McMillan, but be prepared for the possibility of it all going horribly wrong any time from 16 miles on (blowing up even happens to experienced marathoners). I found that hard to deal with after DCM '08, but maybe if I'd gone in feeling "ah, sure I'll give it a go and sure if I have to walk a bit, no harm done" I wouldn't have been so devastated. Keep up your disciplined training program, do a half marathon 5 or 6 weeks before the marathon, and use that to come up with a realistic PMP.
Also, regarding the weather, I'm told it hit 18 deg in places during DCM '09 but I wasn't conscious of it. I know Cork has been hot for the last two years, but that's not guaranteed for this year. Heat doesn't seem to be a huge problem if you're well prepared - I think the womens' winner last year was well under 3 hrs, and she's over 50!

aero2k,

Some info below on the paces:

1) Easy runs should be roughly 2 minutes a mile slower than TODAY’S 5km race pace
2) Tempo runs should be 1 minute a mile slower than (today's) 5km race pace
3) Long intervals (5 minutes or longer per rep) should be no faster than 5km pace
4) Medium (length) Intervals (2.5-5 minutes in length) should be no faster than 3km to 5k pace.
5) Short Intervals (30 seconds to 2.5 minutes) should be run no faster than MVO pace (Max VO2 pace - what can be run in a time trial or race that lasts 6:40 minutes at full effort) to 3k pace
6) Speed-endurance Reps (200 to 400s) should be run at 1500m to 800m pace, depending upon how many you do, the rest between reps, and the type of runner you are
7) Sprint Reps should be run at 400m pace (normally 50s to 150s), no faster unless you are an actual sprinter


Recovery runs - current 5k pace plus 2.5 minutes per mile
Regular Eesy runs - current 5k plus 2 minutes per mile
Slow Tempos - current 5k plus plus about 1:15-1:30 per minute
Regular (medium) tempos - current 5k pace plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
Fast Tempos - current 5k pace plus 30-45 seconds per mile
CV intervals - current 5k pace plus 8-10 seconds per km

CV running = 5k pace plus 8-12 seconds per km. A 16 minute 5k runner needs about 4 miles of CV running, on average, but no more than 5 miles per workout. Thus a 7-8 x 1k at CV pace (jog 200m recoveries) is about right.It raises VO2 max. It raises LT or AnT or whatever you want to call it. It improves efficiency. It raises overall leg strength (substantially more than easy distance running) and nearly as much as much as VO2 max - which is 100% of aerobic power - because you can do a lot of CV compared to VO2 max pace. CV pace can be used year round and done weekly. Using reps 800m-1200m is about right and always use CURRENT 5km pace. It is a great training tool try it out.

Hope that helps a bit.

Tergat

tergat

tisnotover wrote: »

@ Tergat,

Thanks again for the detailed post, the last time I posted something like this here was asking "How best to improve my 5-mile time", which worked and now look what i'm jumping into !?!

So if I try and put some numbers on it, my current 10mile PB is 63:30, 6:21 pace. I feel I could run 6:25-> 6:30 pace (1.24 / 1.25) for a half marathon at present.

I think the example you gave of the distinction between HMP and PMP agrees with what aero2k just posted also.

For the times listed, this would mean doing PMP runs at 6:50 -> 7:00 pace, which sounds reasonable to me...??

@ aero2k, tx for the post

tisnotover,

If you feel you can run 85 mins for a HM then 3.00-3.05 should be realistic with a good block of endurance training and getting to the start line healthy. I would use 6.55-7.00 min pace for now and revise as you get fitter.

Remember the marathon starts at 20 miles so why not get there running 7 min miles and then if feeling good drop to 6.50's. best way to run it and be careful of the start. Be controlled that first few miles to save precious glycogen (stored sugar) which is burned almost exclusively at the beginning of the race. If you run too fast, early-on, then you ruin the whole race!

Tergat

Peckham

--amadeus-- wrote: »

My method in the past has been to train to planned pace to push myself on but it sounds like you think this is a bad idea. How should you train to PB?

Much appreciated!!

Looking forward to reading the answer to this, as I could be way off with my PMP 8 miles on last Saturday's long run, ran PMP at 6:30/mi (also with a 2:55 target, ~6:35/mi target pace). Felt so confident after that run, now it's draining away!!

tergat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Like Aero I'd be really interested in a more detailed breakdown of the paces used, especially CV.

Likewise I'd like some clarity on the idea of not training faster than goal pace. I can understand teh difference if you are training massively too quickly (as in a sub 3 running doing "PMP" runs at 6:30 - 6:40 rather than 6:48 - 6:50) but is there danger to training a few seconds per mile (say a max of 5) faster than PMP? As I said above I have done this so that PMP feels comfortable, is a few secs per mile really going to shift you through the zones?

Finally if running faster than PMP is not advised then what are your recommendations for moving up to aggressive marathon targets? There are a few of us here looking to move from ~3:00 to 2:55 and 2:50 (VR, Krusty and myself for a start) how do you recommend we do so? My method in the past has been to train to planned pace to push myself on but it sounds like you think this is a bad idea. How should you train to PB?

Much appreciated!!

amadeus,

Running up to 5 secs or so faster than Marathon pace is fine once it feels comfortable. Think about it this way:

Have you ever gone out on a long run say 16-18 miles running the first 12 easy and then running the last 4-6 maybe 20-30 secs per mile faster? What happens? You quickly change your fuel burning rate and eat into your precious gylcogen stores and begin to feel flat.

During workouts where you are doing say 2-3 mile reps at marathon pace, you are teaching your body to relax at this pace, to utilise fats better and preserve those vital glycogen stores at this pace. That extra 5-10 secs faster could be enough to negate this.

Also it is TRAINING and on race day you should be able to run that pace comfortably until 16 miles or so where your endurance, mental tenacity and sheer guts kicks in to get you to the finish.

Running a marathon PB requires the following:
- Consistant Training over time staying completley injury/illness free
- Getting to the start line 100% healthy with the WORK done (Miles in the bank)
- A strong body that has adapted to the pounding of 26.2 miles on the road
- A strong mind/mental tenacity (it is not a race for those that give up easily)
- A solid training plan that first builds a strong base then focuses on 5km/10km training. Next part is your Marathon specific part before tapering.
- Patience and a realistic pace for the first half of the race

Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 10k training. The last two to three months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training.

You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise. Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training.

Marathon Training is all about two words: Big (Long) Workouts. It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

One final note, do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. It is assumed that you are healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months. If in doubt, consult a doctor who is specialist in exercise.

To keep things simple be patient, keep training consistant, looking after the little details sleep, diet etc, get in the long workouts/long runs and enjoy your running. Then your PB will come:)

Tergat

village runner

tergat wrote: »

tisnotover,

Interesting question and having looked over your post I advise to be very careful with running faster than CURRENT Marathon pace in workouts. This is a 'grey' area just like junk mileage is. In training you should be running one of the following paces and have a reason for it:
- Recovery Pace
- Easy Pace
- Marathon Pace
- Half Marathon Pace
- LT (Lactate Threshold) Pace
- CV (Critical Velocity) Pace
- 10km Pace
- 5km Pace
- 3km (Vo2 Max) Pace
- 400m-1500m (Speed) Paces

Each has a role to play and affects our bodys phsiology differently. If you are running a Marathon and have done a block of training aimed at 5km-10km training then your last 8-12 week block should be aimed at CV, HM and Marathon paces included in long workouts and long runs. These are the paces that will give you the most 'bang for your buck' for the Marathon.

When doing workouts at Marathon pace ALWAYS use todays (CURRENT) Marathon pace and NOT GOAL Marathon pace. Revise this as you get fitter. Going into a marathon aiming for a pace that is unrealistic is madness. Also trying to run 'Marathon' workouts in training at faster than your current Marathon pace is not a good idea. You will more than likely be running closer to HM pace and thus have completely different running mechanics and be burning more glycogen (which is not what you want to do). You need to get your body efficient at running CURRENT marathon pace and teach it to utilise fats better and spare precious glycogen stores.

Real Life Case:
My friend decided to run his first Marathon in Dublin and was convinced he could run 6.00-6.05 per mile for the 26.2 miles. He regularly trained at 6.00-6.10 pace doing longer workouts such as 3-4*3 Miles etc and found them 'tough'. i tried to explain to him that he was running at his HM pace and not marathon pace and he should be running 6.25-6.30 pace. He couldnt see it and started off in Dublin running 6.10's and working down to 6.05's by 10 miles feeling ok. He hit 12 miles and bang race over. The point is you need to be REALISTIC and use CURRENT paces in training not GOAL paces. Aim for a HM about 4-6 weeks before the big race and report back here and we'll be able to confirm your race day pace for you.

Also be careful with running paces faster than 10km pace leading up to the marathon. It isn't that 5km-3km paced workouts are "bad" for marathon runners it's that they are abused, typically. From a physiological stance, running well in the marathon requires suppression of glucose and glycogen burning rates. You have a limited supply of sugar, that is, and you can't burn it up too fast. If you set the thermostat high, it burns hot! VO2 max types of workouts set the thermostat high. It's ok to include some 3k to 5k running, but not much should be done, in my opinion, during the 10 weeks prior to the marathon. Just enough to improve leg strength, that's it!

I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big (Long) Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 80-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 80-90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

Hope that helps.

Tergat

tergat wrote: »

amadeus,

Running up to 5 secs or so faster than Marathon pace is fine once it feels comfortable. Think about it this way:

Have you ever gone out on a long run say 16-18 miles running the first 12 easy and then running the last 4-6 maybe 20-30 secs per mile faster? What happens? You quickly change your fuel burning rate and eat into your precious gylcogen stores and begin to feel flat.

During workouts where you are doing say 2-3 mile reps at marathon pace, you are teaching your body to relax at this pace, to utilise fats better and preserve those vital glycogen stores at this pace. That extra 5-10 secs faster could be enough to negate this.

Also it is TRAINING and on race day you should be able to run that pace comfortably until 16 miles or so where your endurance, mental tenacity and sheer guts kicks in to get you to the finish.

Running a marathon PB requires the following:
- Consistant Training over time staying completley injury/illness free
- Getting to the start line 100% healthy with the WORK done (Miles in the bank)
- A strong body that has adapted to the pounding of 26.2 miles on the road
- A strong mind/mental tenacity (it is not a race for those that give up easily)
- A solid training plan that first builds a strong base then focuses on 5km/10km training. Next part is your Marathon specific part before tapering.
- Patience and a realistic pace for the first half of the race

Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 10k training. The last two to three months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training.

You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise. Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training.

Marathon Training is all about two words: Big (Long) Workouts. It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

One final note, do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. It is assumed that you are healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months. If in doubt, consult a doctor who is specialist in exercise.

To keep things simple be patient, keep training consistant, looking after the little details sleep, diet etc, get in the long workouts/long runs and enjoy your running. Then your PB will come:)

Tergat

What did you mean "never run super hero workouts" ? Are we talking a blowout or an all out effort on the threadmill or whatever ?
Getting alot out of this thread.

tergat

village runner wrote: »

What did you mean "never run super hero workouts" ? Are we talking a blowout or an all out effort on the threadmill or whatever ?
Getting alot out of this thread.

village runner,

I have touched on some of this before but I think it is not adviseable to run 'very hard' workouts 2-3 times a week every week. I think two workouts a week is all that should be done and athletes should always have something in reserve. There are times when a 'blowout' workout is fine once you recover well but not every week. You can only race as well as you recover.

If you are going to run an important race soon and you have only done very slow distance running, you may have good aerobic endurance and your slow twitch muscle fibers are fit, but you won't be able to use your fast twitch (oxidative or glycolytic) much at all. Thus, you won't have power to get the speed to a good level. But, it only takes a handful of faster workouts to get that power up and to get those fast fibers functioning well.

The worst thing you can do is run too fast on a regular basis. You burn up your glycogen and thus have no energy to run really fast in a race. And, I think you probably jeopardize your health, too, because your endrocrine system becomes exhausted. Thus, you'll become ill quite easily.

If you run too fast on your distance runs between scheduled key workouts, then you won't run your key workouts very well. So, you might as well not run key workouts if you run fast on a daily basis.

You can run fast in races without doing fast workouts, provided you run medium to medium-fast often and you stay below the limit of where you break down and become depleted. It is a very hard thing to do. To do it well requires enormous patience and a great internal sense of when you've "had enough." I warn you, though, running medium-fast often is like playing with fire. If you get it right, it provides great warmth but if you do it wrong you burn up completely everything in sight. You can NOT run medium-fast daily and include fast workouts and races without risking overkill. The two together are hazardous.

So, the theme is this: it is important to modulate (vary) the pace of your distance runs and it is important to NOT run hard every day. If you follow a simple general philosophy, you will run no more than 2 hard workouts per week. The only exception is if you don't run much in a particular workout fast so that you can actually come back and do another moderate volume fast workout, making two moderate volume fast workouts that had the same impact or stress as one very hard workout, and thus the potential to run three faster workouts per week (but be careful!). And, during the majority of your build up to a race, you don't need to be running hard, period. Rather, a couple of challenging endurance workouts per week is about all you really need. For most runners, 5-10 fast workouts will bring them to peak fitness and performance, so why do them 2-3 times per week for many weeks in a row?

REMEMBER the key to success in distance running is staying injury/illness free and being consistant in your training over months and years (NOT WEEKS). Why risk this by trying 'super hero' workouts and getting run down or injured.

Just my thoughts/experience.

Tergat

Peckham

This is fast becoming "thread of the millennium" for marathoners - especially those of us trying to push up to the next level.

Another question for tergat - you mention running the PMP runs at today's marathon pace. Assuming that fitness improves throughout training, and that your marathon pace gets faster, this means that you're likely to only do (at most) one training session at the pace that you run in the race. Does this not defeat a key objective of PMP - i.e. getting used to clocking around 12-15 miles at the pace you run on the day?

And a related question....how do identify today's marathon pace? McMillan? I can see how it's easy to keep track on 5k/10k pace by the races that you run, but as often discussed here those types of races aren't a great predictor of where you are in terms of marathon pace.

Abhainn

tergat wrote: »

REMEMBER the key to success in distance running is staying injury/illness free and being consistant in your training over months and years (NOT WEEKS).
Tergat

I second this advise Tergat.

And finally "Be Patient" in your progress

(Great thread)

Sosa

Tisnotover,
I think your a shoe in for thread of the year !

tergat

Peckham wrote: »

This is fast becoming "thread of the millennium" for marathoners - especially those of us trying to push up to the next level.

Another question for tergat - you mention running the PMP runs at today's marathon pace. Assuming that fitness improves throughout training, and that your marathon pace gets faster, this means that you're likely to only do (at most) one training session at the pace that you run in the race. Does this not defeat a key objective of PMP - i.e. getting used to clocking around 12-15 miles at the pace you run on the day?

And a related question....how do identify today's marathon pace? McMillan? I can see how it's easy to keep track on 5k/10k pace by the races that you run, but as often discussed here those types of races aren't a great predictor of where you are in terms of marathon pace.

Peckham,

Good questions, hopefully some answers below:

I think this PMP term confuses a lot of people. You cant force your body to run at a pace that it simply is not ready for. You will just lose form and burn more of the precious glycogen stores you are trying to store.

The better way to go about it is to run at the pace on that particular day you think you could run for a marathon taking into account your current fitness level, recent race times, recent sleep patterns, weather, the terrain you are using, hydration status, time of day etc etc.

If for instance you feel you can run 7.00 per mile for a 4*3 mile marathon pace workout on Feb 15th and on April 1st you feel you can run 6.50 per mile for the same workout that is fine. You have followed the basic prinicple of PROGRESSION. The effort it took to run the 7.00 min pace in Feb is equal to the effort it takes to run 6.50 pace in April, you have just adapted, progressed and got fitter thats all. So if by May you feel you can run 6.40-6.45 per mile for a full Marathon thats great. But running the Marathon at 6.40-6.45 pace is equal to the feeling of how 7.00 minpace felt in Feb relative to your fitness level then. Can you see where I am going?

A tip estimate your 10k race-pace for the day, on that course taking into account the factors mentioned above and then add 10% to it. If you think you can run 32 minutes (5:08.99 per mile pace), then 10% more would be 5:39.89 per mile pace (MP for that day). If you think on that day you are not fresh, it's warm, you are tired and 33 minutes (5:18.65 per mile pace) is more realistic, then run 5:50.51 per mile for MP training. Oddly, though the pace is slower, you'll get better long-term benefit from it than running too hard / too fast. Hope that helps.

Tergat

tyler71

Is it possible to equate your heart rate with the various paces recommended above? I'm in the same boat as tisnotover, doing my first marathon (Barcelona in three weeks) and similarly the Macmillan recommendations looked too fast so I wasn't sure what pacing to use. As a result I've been doing my training based off heartrate, doing my long runs at Zone 1/2, tempo/steady runs at low Zone 3 and speedwork at lactate threshold. I've noticed that my pace when maintaining these heartrates has actually been pretty consistent, so it's been a good way of estimating my pace, but I don't know if that's just coincidence or not.
My problem up to now has been knowing what heartrate to maintain for the marathon itself - looking at the scale of paces that Tergat recommends, it looks like the recommended marathon pace is halfway between lactate threshold and easy run so I'm guessing low Zone 3, which is around the pace I've been using for my 'tempo' runs. I was talking to an experienced marathon runner and he runs at his lactate threshold for the first twenty miles and lets his heartrate max out for the finish, but he knows his limits and that sounds a bit risky to me, so I was looking to go lower. Is using heartrate feasible?

tergat

tyler71 wrote: »

Is it possible to equate your heart rate with the various paces recommended above? I'm in the same boat as tisnotover, doing my first marathon (Barcelona in three weeks) and similarly the Macmillan recommendations looked too fast so I wasn't sure what pacing to use. As a result I've been doing my training based off heartrate, doing my long runs at Zone 1/2, tempo/steady runs at low Zone 3 and speedwork at lactate threshold. I've noticed that my pace when maintaining these heartrates has actually been pretty consistent, so it's been a good way of estimating my pace, but I don't know if that's just coincidence or not.
My problem up to now has been knowing what heartrate to maintain for the marathon itself - looking at the scale of paces that Tergat recommends, it looks like the recommended marathon pace is halfway between lactate threshold and easy run so I'm guessing low Zone 3, which is around the pace I've been using for my 'tempo' runs. I was talking to an experienced marathon runner and he runs at his lactate threshold for the first twenty miles and lets his heartrate max out for the finish, but he knows his limits and that sounds a bit risky to me, so I was looking to go lower. Is using heartrate feasible?

tyler71,

My advice is not to get to attached to your HR monitor, use paces from recent races as guides aswell as HR but MOST important go by how you feel.

Heart rates vary! If you are low on water, it will go up at the same training intensity (pace, if you will). If you are depleted of sugar, it will go down. If it is hot or you have too much clothing, it will go up at the same intensity, too. If you are nervous, it will go up because you are jacked with adrenaline. If you are overtrained and run hard, your legs may feel it but your heart rate may not be high enough to show you that you are straining because you are not producing adrenaline due to adrenal fatigue.

Heart rate varies, depending on weather, fatigue, hydration status, and fitness level, so no perfect answer exists. However, here are some rough general guidelines:

Recovery (Slow) = about 70-73% HR max (your current max)
Easy = about 75-78% of max
Long Tempo = about 84-86% of max
Threshold = about 88-90% of max
CV = about 92.5% of max
VO2 max = about 97.5% of max

Tergat

Condo131

Some excellent advice here, especially (but not limited to) Tergat's - take a bow!

Your first marathon is a learning experience.

Patience, patience, during the early stages of the marathon.

I strongly advise using a 5M/10k just a few (3 to 4) weeks before your target marathon and run this as a practice run at target marathon pace. Aim to get each individual mile as close to target pace as possible. Don't worry about the finishing time - you're trying to get a feel for the actual pace. After doing this, I find it easier to get into the right rhythm on the day. *Remember* a huge number of people go out *way too fast* in any marathon. This will be compounded by the relay runners in Cork (especially with Boards AC trying to catch Golden Eagles :D:D (another gauntlet thrown down!)

As tergat said, staying injury free, along with consistency, is absolutely vital.

A decent marathon training plan will have a pretty heavy and increasing load - you need to ensure recovery and that means *recovery*. You CANNOT do a hard session or long run and do a hard run the next day. Your goal is now approx. 3.5 months away. You need to map out the entire period. Target some races as milestones in that period and taper/ease up slightly for those. Forget the other races, or just run through them, using them instead of hard workouts, but do NOT 'go to the well' on these. Patience, patience, patience.

Again as Tergat says, use your CURRENT race times to guide your track sessions. If you use a pace that is too ambitious, you'll either be injured, or fatigued mentally and/or physically.

In the Marathon itself, start off at target pace - absolutely no faster - and hold that till at least 20. You can then push on if you feel like it. At this stage it's critical to monitor and maintain body form/posture - sloppy form is far more tiring.

One important word of warning: In a marathon, you *CANNOT* 'bank' time. Go out 10 mins too fast and you'll probably end up 30 slower.

The good news is that Cork has got considerably flatter (continental drift an all that y'know ) Seriously, the course has been 'tweaked' and some of the hills have gone, along with a good deal of the Model Farm Road and Carrigrohane (aka 'De Straight Road') sections. A full re-measurement is starting this weekend and an official unveiling will be announced soon. (I was asked to take down my 'sneak preview' so that it wouldn't take the wind out of the sails for the Official Launch - but I hope to do a detailed course description c/w photos shortly)

tisnotover

tergat wrote: »

tisnotover,

If you feel you can run 85 mins for a HM then 3.00-3.05 should be realistic with a good block of endurance training and getting to the start line healthy. I would use 6.55-7.00 min pace for now and revise as you get fitter.

Remember the marathon starts at 20 miles so why not get there running 7 min miles and then if feeling good drop to 6.50's. best way to run it and be careful of the start. Be controlled that first few miles to save precious glycogen (stored sugar) which is burned almost exclusively at the beginning of the race. If you run too fast, early-on, then you ruin the whole race!

Tergat

Bringing back up a thread I started couple of months ago.
In recent races i've ran 37:19 for 10k and 1:22:39 for half marathon.

PMP runs are going well and have seen some progression w.r.t pace there being run at versus heart-rate and are feeling easier each time.

Running under 1:23 would indicate sub-3hrs is manageable with right training. However, my thinking here still is to err on the cautious side !

Tergat's post above of going out at 7min/mile pace to 20 or so seems solid and should be doable if conditions are right and i'm right on the day. Could then pick it up for last 10km if I have it in tank !

I think that'll be my race strategy, be interested to hear other people's approaches. will continue to do PMP runs for next few weeks, not long to go now till June 7th !?! :eek:

Krusty_Clown

Just to point out that 20 x 00:07:00 = 2:20, which leaves you with a sub-40 10k, to dip in under the three hour mark (picking up the pace to 6:25/mile). So if sub-three is your goal, you'd need to make sure you've done enough longs runs, picking up the pace towards the end of the long run, to be prepared for this kind of pace increase on tired legs.

If getting 'near' to sub-3 is your goal, then it's a perfectly acceptable strategy, that will see you finish fast and comfortably, in a time you can be happy with.

KentuckyPete

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Just to point out that 20 x 00:07:00 = 2:20, which leaves you with a sub-40 10k, to dip in under the three hour mark (picking up the pace to 6:25/mile). So if sub-three is your goal, you'd need to make sure you've done enough longs runs, picking up the pace towards the end of the long run, to be prepared for this kind of pace increase on tired legs.

If getting 'near' to sub-3 is your goal, then it's a perfectly acceptable strategy, that will see you finish fast and comfortably, in a time you can be happy with.

tisnotover, I'm a good bit short of 3:00 but I'd agree with Krusty on this one.
I ran 3:14 in Rotterdam (race report here) by executing a similar strategy to what you're proposing - going at a steady pace out to 20 then giving it holly for the last 6. I felt good at 20 and was able to take advantage of a flat course and able to spring off a relatively comfortable pace.

I think you need to be WAY within yourself at 7:00 pace to finish the last 6 at sub 40 10k pace.

Granted, I did the whole thing at 20 seconds slower per mile than what you're planning but surely the technique and situation is similar. Also, if you get any problems along the route (like I did in the early part of the Rotterdam race), you're leaving it very tight to make up the ground.

Another way to look at it is to say if you run to 20 miles at 7:00 pace you'd be well over three minutes behind someone running the exact target sub 3:00 pace. Could you really beat a fast-moving runner over the last 6 miles of a marathon by over 3 minutes? Presumably your final few long runs over the coming fortnight can tell you this.

As I say, I'm 14 minutes behind your target so I'm far from the expert but thought this might help.

misty floyd

I've had a good few weeks to think about those damn 30 seconds (don't get me wrong, I'm still happy with my time). I think if I was to do it again I would still go out for the ~7:00 m/m for the first 3m and hit around 6:50/55ish to get to half way at no more than +45s (was +1:04 in Rotterdam). I wish I concentrated more on hitting PMP from miles 7-18. I'd still try hammer home at 18m. I really believe its the right thing for me. Its hard to know whats right as so much can happen in a race. Thats why targetting 2:55 - 2:58 (as mentioned by Krusty in sub 3 thread) is the best approach but when you feel you are so close to sub 3, that it is a fair but big ask, its not so easy or wise to target 2:55. Not that anyone is saying target 2:55 but you know what I mean.

tno, ealier in this thread you mentioned a 3:15 goal and I commented thats its right to be conservative as its your first marathon. Upon reflection (what do I know?) and seeing how much you've improved I'd like to take that back;). Hard to know what to do isn't it? I really like the controlled start, concentrate on even pace in the middle and then let it rip approach.

misty floyd

/\ thats a load of balls really. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Only one way to know Tno is to go with what feels right....what sits well in your head, then go try to execute it.

tisnotover

Tx for feedback, I wrote above like capturing my train of thought since the half !

Its a difficult one to call at moment, but my first instinct would be that i'd be happy to be close to 3hr mark, like 3:00->3:05.

we'll see how the next couple of weeks go like and make a better call on it when we get to taper time, must chat to coach later anyhow, he said I was conservative about my approach to the half last week and he was damn right on that one!

I finished ahead of a couple of club-mates on Sunday, one by ~3mins and he's going out at 6:40 pace for Cork (to break 3hrs), that I can't fathom at all, but the difference between him and me is that he's an experience marathon runner!

7mins/mile upto half way would be 1:31:4x or so, in fairness, that does seem doable, the race is only starting from that point in my mind though !

Cork will give a good few stories of atempts in/around and under 3hr mark, be interesting to see how we all get on !

(The mcmillan calcualtor should never have been invented )

Krusty_Clown

In my last raced marathon, I finished my last 10k in just over 40 mins (40:29) and I had a very strong finish, my last 5k split being my fastest, to finish in 2:55.

I like Misty's suggestion/approach: 7 min/mile for th first few miles, and if feeling great, pick it up a small bit for the next 5, and then re-assess every 5 miles. It will bring you closer to your goal, while still moving up in a controlled fashion.
Lets say you do something like the following:
5 Miles @7mm=35:00
5 Miles @6:55=34:35
5 Miles @6:50=34:10
5 Miles @6:50=34:10
Total=2:17:55
That leaves you 42 minutes to cover the remaining 10k. I'm not saying you should follow the above exactly, just the general approach. If after the first 5 miles, you don't feel happy increasing to 6:55/mile, then stick with 7min/mile until/if you do.

tisnotover

Looks interesting Krusty, thanks. Must read over the "sub-3" thread later as well, as there was some discussions there on pacing as well like.

Misty and your approach is solid and is based on how you feel at each point in race, pushing on when you feel good and steadying when not.
It might be better than trying to flat-target say 6:4x min/mile for the full 26.2miles and fading, with hindsight telling ya your PMP pace was too aggressive for that day.

misty floyd

When you look at the two approaches (even splits V Slower/steady/let it rip), there are pro's and cons to both.

- Its hard to run faster when you've just run 20miles. Yes.
- Setting an even pace approach, doing that and getting to the end thinking, "that pace was too aggresive for me". The flip side is you could get to the end doing the other approach and say to yourself, "I should have gone faster earlier".
- There are lots more pro's and con's

The deciding factor for me is the comfort in knowing that you are not cooking too early. Its only an extra half a minute or so by half way but knowing* that you won't blow up is comforting and you always have the option of taking it easy if the PMP that you thought was right, isn't. Its always good to be in control yourself and not have your body dictate what happens.

*you don't know

tisnotover

misty floyd wrote: »

When you look at the two approaches (even splits V Slower/steady/let it rip), there are pro's and cons to both.

- Its hard to run faster when you've just run 20miles. Yes.
- Setting an even pace approach, doing that and getting to the end thinking, "that pace was too aggresive for me". The flip side is you could get to the end doing the other approach and say to yourself, "I should have gone faster earlier".
- There are lots more pro's and con's

The deciding factor for me is the comfort in knowing that you are not cooking too early. Its only an extra half a minute or so by half way but knowing* that you won't blow up is comforting and you always have the option of taking it easy if the PMP that you thought was right, isn't. Its always good to be in control yourself and not have your body dictate what happens.

*you don't know

I still go with your approach Misty! If I look at it this way: If some-one told me to go for sub 1:23 on Sunday and go out at that target pace, I would have told them they were mad. I went out at 1:24 pace, got over the main hill, felt fine and pushed on to finish strong in under 1:23. The same type of approach I will have to take for this marathon if ya get my drift.

God I wish I had a marathon under my belt...if anything else this will be a learning experience !

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

PMP runs are going well and have seen some progression w.r.t pace there being run at versus heart-rate and are feeling easier each time.

Running under 1:23 would indicate sub-3hrs is manageable with right training. However, my thinking here still is to err on the cautious side !

Go for Sub 3. Your PMP runs are at sub 3 pace, so you have the specificity of training. Also, your LSR's are nice and slowly run plus you have been doing decent length runs every weekend consistently since about last July so you have a very solid base to your marathon training. I think you are naturally more of a long distance endurance runner than a fast 3k or 5k runner, so to be honest, i think its fair to say your HM marathon time is a fair indicator of sub 3 capability (actually indicates 2:55 so you ARE being conservative by going for sub 3).

Run first 2-3 miles steady, 7:00 pace and then ease into sub 3 pace. I think you'll regret it later not going for it.

brownian

I'll stick my neck out here and suggest that it's not easy to aim for 3:05, or "near 3" - at that level, you're surely in the sub-3 objective zone, in your heart of hearts. And even though you'll be happy to get 3:05 or whatever in your first marathon (a serious achievement!), you'll wonder if you shouldn't have gone harder.

Every runner is different, but I think it might be hard to make up serious amounts of time if you deliberately aim for a half-way split of more than 1:30. While you'll have read here that it's not possible to "bank" time in a marathon, I do think it's possible to put yourself in an ugly overdraft situation. Given your track record so far, in your position I'd be looking to run the first half in sub-90 minutes, maybe 88 or 89. Then to chug on to mile 22 or 23, then put the boot down with whatever you've got. The last 10km is a looong way, I've certainly found it infeasible to up the pace substantially from M20 onwards; the last couple of miles you can run on adrenaline and that "nothing left to lose" feeling. That's very subjective, and you may find that you can in fact pull a sub-40 last 10km out of the bag - though in that case maybe you should have been aiming for 2:50!!

Apart from avoiding the time overdraft issue, the other thing I'd be inclined to look out for (given your solid HM pace) is not to go too fast in M3-M13. If you go through half way in 1:25, you may feel that you've a great reserve, but you'd better be really really strong. Hold back, and if you still feel powerful at 18, then go up a notch from M18 to M23, then let loose.

Best of luck on your run - regardless of the final clock time, it's a great sense of accomplishment.

tisnotover

@Gringo78 and @Brownian

Thanks for advice lads, will have to strongly consider it now I think, prob right that I'd regret it after if I finished in 3:03, especially if I finished strong last 10km strong to hit that time.

I'd agree on the "long distance runner" bit Gringo, saw that as well last year when I raced the Cork to Cobh 15miler, and it felt good like.

A couple of solid weeks training now and we'll be in good shape to give it a go.

OuterBombie

Great Thread, I missed it the first time and am enjoying reading it this morning.

I have two sub-3's under my belt from the DCM.

One negative split (1:31/1:27) and one positive split (1:26/1:31).

The negative split was my first marathon, I had 10k and half times similar to yourself (37/1:23). I went out with the start slow, built through 14-19 and then held the pace for the last 10k.

The positive split was my third marathon and I was hoping for around 2:55, I probably started a bit too fast, just a shade but in hindsight it was too fast, got to halfway, pushed to 18/19 and then the lights went out, the last 10K were a nightmare, ok I got in under the 3 but I was reduced to a walk in the last mile with total leg cramp :eek:, lovely!

I came away from the first with a great feeling of accomplishment, eager to train more and push the time in the future. I came away from the second one, busted, barely able to walk for a week and dejected.

I've learned my lesson, start off well within my ability and build steadily through the race. I guess its not so much building as not slowing down as much as everyone else!

The mental positive's of feeling (relatively) good, running steadily and overtaking people in that last 10k are the way to go, compared to suffering, running in pain from lamppost to lamppost and been overtaken.

It'll take discipline to hold back in the first hour so having your goal pace and mental strategy plan solid and ready to rock is so important.

Once the training is done the path to a solid race is all in the head.

After that the old mantra kicks in "You don't have to feel good to do good!"

Enjoy it.

Sosa

OuterBombie wrote: »

Great Thread, I missed it the first time and am enjoying reading it this morning.

I have two sub-3's under my belt from the DCM.

One negative split (1:31/1:27) and one positive split (1:26/1:31).

The negative split was my first marathon, I had 10k and half times similar to yourself (37/1:23). I went out with the start slow, built through 14-19 and then held the pace for the last 10k.

The positive split was my third marathon and I was hoping for around 2:55, I probably started a bit too fast, just a shade but in hindsight it was too fast, got to halfway, pushed to 18/19 and then the lights went out, the last 10K were a nightmare, ok I got in under the 3 but I was reduced to a walk in the last mile with total leg cramp :eek:, lovely!

I came away from the first with a great feeling of accomplishment, eager to train more and push the time in the future. I came away from the second one, busted, barely able to walk for a week and dejected.

I've learned my lesson, start off well within my ability and build steadily through the race. I guess its not so much building as not slowing down as much as everyone else!

The mental positive's of feeling (relatively) good, running steadily and overtaking people in that last 10k are the way to go, compared to suffering, running in pain from lamppost to lamppost and been overtaken.

It'll take discipline to hold back in the first hour so having your goal pace and mental strategy plan solid and ready to rock is so important.

Once the training is done the path to a solid race is all in the head.

After that the old mantra kicks in "You don't have to feel good to do good!"

Enjoy it.

This sounds like very good advice,Tis

I wish i read it before Dublin last year.
Your clearly capable of at least getting very close to sub 3,if not under it.

IF i had my time back,i would have started conservatively and tried to pick it up.That way i would not have blown up and probably have finished sub 3:05 if not closer.

There are loads of us on here on the cusp of 3:00...but its no mean feat,look how few here do it....Krusty,Village Runner,Asimonov.....look who have missed out.....Amadeus,Peckham,Misty,Slogger.
I dont even include the likes of abhainn,Heffsarmy and Dermcu...who are a level above 3:00

I would heir on the side of caution.
You have one main objective in Cork and its not sub 3.
Its to have a good first marathon experience.
If that gets you 3:05...what a fantastic achievement that would be.
Sub 3 for your next one then.
All your training and races have progressed very well over time.

Thats just my opinion based on my first marathon.
I wish now that i took that approach last year.