PMP Workouts and Pace

tisnotover

Something i've been thinking about lately...

Hoping to do 1st marathon in Cork this year. At moment, McMillan would say i'm on for a 2:58 marathon based on my 10mile time, thats say 6:48min/mile pace, ridiculous:

Reality check its Cork (heat!), its your first marathon, so maybe with right training, actual PMP will be 7:15min/mile for close to 3:10, I don't even want to think about sub-3, maybe some other time!

Question:
Should you train at the 7:15min/mile pace, or faster for PMP workouts. I'm thinking of training for about 6:48/6:50 pace as that is where I'm at relative to the tempo/interval workouts I do, but again on marathon day, to drop back to 7:15 pace???

--amadeus--

Sounds like you are approaching this the right way. IMO train at the intensity McMillan recommends on the assumption you have the background to manage it. As in fast tempo, PMP and interval sessions are tough on the body and that combined with the increased mileage loads of a first marathon program can cause overuse injuries to develop quite quickly.

Assuming that you are able to maintain the 6:48 / PMP training then that is certainly the way to go, for a couple of reasons. First you aren't closing off options - who knows with decent weather and a changed course maybe sub 3 on the day could happen, but it won't if you haven't trained for it. And training slightly faster than PMP means that PMP itself feels a little easier on teh day. In my last race I was targeting 6:50s for sub 3 but tried to maintain sub 6:45 on my PMP runs. On the day the course was measured in kms and 4:15 min/kms (sub 3 pace) felt quite comfortable. Well for the first 23 miles anyway

On the day you can always set off at 7:15 (or even 7:10 or 7:05) pace and pick it up towards the end if you feel good. Trust me, it's better to finish a marathon strongly than set out too fast and suffer at the end.

Krusty_Clown

Far from an expert, but as you progress on your marathon training plan, you'll get an idea of how comfortable you feel at PMP pace. The problem with a MacMillan equivalent time is that it assumes that you have done the appropriate training for the distance/pace you are trying to achieve, which in this case is lots of heavy mileage. If you don't do the appropriate training, all the MacMillan predictions in the world won't mean a thing.

You obviously have a solid 10 mile time, so have some natural ability or a predisposition for solid training, so why not set out with the goal of aiming for 2:58, and as the training program progresses adjust your target upwards or downwards? You might find with marathon mileage that your target may become more aggressive. Do a 10k, 10mile and half-marathon along the way which will also give you more information about an appropriate target pace.

Maybe avoid making out loud predictions about your marathon time until later in the schedule, so you avoid committing yourself to a time that may not be achievable. Tell people that you're aiming for 3:10, but train for 2:58 and see how it goes. Only make your decision in the final weeks leading up to the race. Your first marathon is a tough one, as you don't know what to expect. Your second marathon is the one for which you really want to start setting agressive goals.

Sosa

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Trust me, it's better to finish a marathon strongly than set out too fast and suffer at the end.

Since i made a mebs of Dublin,i now have a different approach to 10m and half marathons.
Start easy and then start passing people occasionaly,then over the last 3 miles or so push on with what you have in the tank.
Every person you pass...its like if you rob any energy they may have left in there bodies and use it for yourself (thats how i felt for the half in dec and the dungarvan 10 last week.)
People start looking over there shoulder ant this person blowing by them,its a great feeling...i have only got that feeling in my last 2 races,heres hoping it stays that way.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Far from an expert, but as you progress on your marathon training plan, you'll get an idea of how comfortable you feel at PMP pace. The problem with a MacMillan equivalent time is that it assumes that you have done the appropriate training for the distance/pace you are trying to achieve, which in this case is lots of heavy mileage. If you don't do the appropriate training, all the MacMillan predictions in the world won't mean a thing.

You obviously have a solid 10 mile time, so have some natural ability or a predisposition for solid training, so why not set out with the goal of aiming for 2:58, and as the training program progresses adjust your target upwards or downwards? You might find with marathon mileage that your target may become more aggressive. Do a 10k, 10mile and half-marathon along the way which will also give you more information about an appropriate target pace.

Maybe avoid making out loud predictions about your marathon time until later in the schedule, so you avoid committing yourself to a time that may not be achievable. Tell people that you're aiming for 3:10, but train for 2:58 and see how it goes. Only make your decision in the final weeks leading up to the race. Your first marathon is a tough one, as you don't know what to expect. Your second marathon is the one for which you really want to start setting agressive goals.

+1 Krusty...you saved me typing all that out.

Train harder than your target time tissy and then see how the weather is on the day and how you feel yourself.

Gringo78

I came accross the following before someplace and for me, it seems to hold reasonably true. Most calculators including McMillan use the factor 4.7 times 10km time = marathon time. However, for the marathon, its reckoned that factor only holds true if you do >60mpw. You should adjust with the following factors according to your weekly mileage. In a way its a correction factor as to how effective you marathon training is (i.e you cannot be training optimally for a marathon if you are only doing 30-35mpw)

30-35 mpw 5.5
40 mpw 5.0-5.3
55 mpw 4.9
60 mpw 4.75-4.85
70 mpw 4.7-4.8
80-100 mpw 4.55-4.65

In 2009 I ran a 10km in 38:54. McMillan would have predicted 3:02. However, as I only did 30mpw per week training, the above factor 5.5 would have actually predicted 3:34. I actually ran 3:26.

McMillan predicts a 3 hr marathon from a 64min 10mile. However, for me, I only will average max 45mpw in marathon training therefore I reckon I need to be running sub 60 for 10 miles to run a sub 3hr marathon. For others, a 65min 10 mile would be enough with 70mpw training.

If you were to train 45-50mpw then I reckon 7:10-7:15 pace would be right for you for cork in the heat, but if you were to up it to 60mpw I reckon you'd be good for sub 3 hr. Even though its your first marathon, you train very smart and consistently but more than that, you already do a decent long run 10-13miles every week outside of marathon training and your short course times have transferred into proportionally as fast 10 milers and HM's so I reckon endurance is not going to be a problem for you.

--amadeus--

Gringo78 wrote: »

30-35 mpw 5.5
40 mpw 5.0-5.3
55 mpw 4.9
60 mpw 4.75-4.85
70 mpw 4.7-4.8
80-100 mpw 4.55-4.65

Interesting - I hadn't seen that before and it makes a lot of sense. Did you work out the factors or is that from somewhere?

meathcountysec

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

Gringo78

meathcountysec wrote: »

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

As far as i can tell, the mileage/age/sex is just data collecting by McMillan, its not factored into the equation. Maybe he is intending to build up an archive of data but its kinda useless unless he gets people to input 2 actual race results rather than one.

tisnotover

Thanks for feedback guys.

Krusty, Amadeus, Sosa, will approach PMP runs as you say, if its too much (impacting rest of runs in week), then will revise pace. Key thing, as PMP runs are all new to me, is to see how they start to fit in to training plan..also agree that the marathon pace for the day, can be decided on much much later, there's a long way to go yet...

@ Gringo, very interesting on mileage/week and it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Would hope to build to 50miles/week and on way race UCC 10k and maybe a half marathon. Will know better how things are going from that.

Krusty_Clown

meathcountysec wrote: »

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

AFAIK, they only collect that data to do a little bit of market research (and in fact it's gone from the site already).
Otherwise, they'd have a lot of females who run 10-15 miles per week aiming for sub-3 (the first options in their drop-down lists!).

Gringo78

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Interesting - I hadn't seen that before and it makes a lot of sense. Did you work out the factors or is that from somewhere?

Will try to dig out the link again...it was based on data collected by some guy. Interestingly though the factors did not apply to himself, he was able to manage a factor of 4.7 iirc off 40-50mpw per week training. His suggestion was however that after 3-4 marathons you could work out what factors worked for you. There are other things to take into account also, the quality of your training etc. I did 20-25mpw training aug - jan but they were a hell of a lot better quality than the 30mpw I did for the marathon in mar-june. If I had done 60mpw back then I would have probably just got injured rather than getting a better marathon time.

macinalli

tisnotover wrote: »

Would hope to build to 50miles/week and on way race UCC 10k and maybe a half marathon. Will know better how things are going from that.

Can only dream of a 3 hr marathon but have gone through the grind of marathon training. Regardless of whatever pace you're settling on, I think that 2-3 races over the ~4month training programme are essential for keeping you focussed with the training. Every now and again it's great just to be able to go out and run and not spending your Fridays thinking of a 15-20 miler the next morning...

misty floyd

Thanks, I'm getting lots from this thread too. Tisnotover, I'm in the same boat as you (apart from this being your first marathon) regarding times. I said I wouldn't, but I'm starting to think about predictions/paces etc etc.

Doing PMP runs at McMillan's pace makes sence and I'm glad others have said so. I am taking this approach and will run at 3:10 marathon pace and see how that feels by 20m. If I were you, I would run at 7:15m/m regardless of how training is going. I'm no expert but I think its important to run a sensible marathon.....especially the first. Having blown up twice, I did learn a lot but I think I would have learned more if I ran conservativly. Even splits would be perfect but you can never be sure what pace to run at unless you have run one or more marathons .....surely??.

I'm doing 60 mile weeks but I'm not prepared to play with fire. I'll see how 7:15m/m feels up to 20, pick it up if I can and finish knowing what I can do with 60mile week averages. I'll know where I stand for DCM 2010.

Krusty_Clown

You're making potentially incorrect assumptions here though. 2:58 may be the original posters sensible marathon, with 2:50 being the 'blow-up option'. I don't think we can advise somebody on their specific pace, as it's a very individual variable (and is very much coloured by our own experiences). All we can do is provide advice on tactics and strategy, e.g. run at a comfortable heart rate, long runs at PMP+20% etc.

Also, we shouldn't try and limit an individual's potential. If someone feels they can break that sub-3 in their first outing, that's their own decision, responsibility and of course risk. I'm sure the OP runs a much faster 10 mile than I do. I'm targeting a sub-3 in a few weeks time, so why shouldn't they?

misty floyd

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You're making potentially incorrect assumptions here though. 2:58 may be the original posters sensible marathon, with 2:50 being the 'blow-up option'. I don't think we can advise somebody on their specific pace, as it's a very individual variable (and is very much coloured by our own experiences). All we can do is provide advice on tactics and strategy, e.g. run at a comfortable heart rate, long runs at PMP+20% etc.

Also, we shouldn't try and limit an individual's potential. If someone feels they can break that sub-3 in their first outing, that's their own decision, responsibility and of course risk. I'm sure the OP runs a much faster 10 mile than I do. I'm targeting a sub-3 in a few weeks time, so why shouldn't they?

you are right Krusty but I was just saying what I would do. I took advice from lots of people here about what pace I should do for DCM....I ran near it or at it and bang, disaster. My advice was to be cautious, thats all.

Krusty_Clown

You're exactly right with the philosophy/strategy. It's just the implementation that differs from person to person. (If this was a game of w@nk-words bingo, that's one race I'd win).

My views always tend to be influenced by where I am at a particular point in my training. Right now, it's all [be all that you can be][live up to your potential] and other Nike-like slogans.

In a couple of weeks time, it could all be: [Take the safer option, finishing is more important than failure][A race is a good run spoiled].

tisnotover

misty floyd wrote: »

Thanks, I'm getting lots from this thread too. Tisnotover, I'm in the same boat as you (apart from this being your first marathon) regarding times. I said I wouldn't, but I'm starting to think about predictions/paces etc etc.

Doing PMP runs at McMillan's pace makes sence and I'm glad others have said so. I am taking this approach and will run at 3:10 marathon pace and see how that feels by 20m. If I were you, I would run at 7:15m/m regardless of how training is going. I'm no expert but I think its important to run a sensible marathon.....especially the first. Having blown up twice, I did learn a lot but I think I would have learned more if I ran conservativly. Even splits would be perfect but you can never be sure what pace to run at unless you have run one or more marathons .....surely??.

I'm doing 60 mile weeks but I'm not prepared to play with fire. I'll see how 7:15m/m feels up to 20, pick it up if I can and finish knowing what I can do with 60mile week averages. I'll know where I stand for DCM 2010.

Its a sound approach Misty and I would feel more aligned to your approach of putting in a solid first marathon, review it and the training leading upto it and take things from there for the next one...

Its enough in this poster's head at moment, to just step up and start getting the longer runs in, increased weekly mileage and PMP runs. (the marathon day thoughts on pacing can come later...)

KentuckyPete

This is a great thread lads - thanks.

I reckon MacMillan doesn't mean much without 60miles per week - a distance I don't have time to cover. I'm looking at managing 45-50 mpw before the taper for Rotterdam so Gringo's adjusted Macmillan weighting is excellent for me.

Am aiming for 3:20 to 3:15 on the day (7:24-7:36 minute miles) so am doing PMP runs at 7:15.

Doing LSRs at 8:00

Now I'm off to apply the Gringo weighting to my MacMillan numbers

BeepBeep67

meathcountysec wrote: »

McMillan now seems to take mileage/age/sex into account.

Is that endurance or speed ?

tergat

tisnotover wrote: »

Something i've been thinking about lately...

Hoping to do 1st marathon in Cork this year. At moment, McMillan would say i'm on for a 2:58 marathon based on my 10mile time, thats say 6:48min/mile pace, ridiculous:

Reality check its Cork (heat!), its your first marathon, so maybe with right training, actual PMP will be 7:15min/mile for close to 3:10, I don't even want to think about sub-3, maybe some other time!

Question:
Should you train at the 7:15min/mile pace, or faster for PMP workouts. I'm thinking of training for about 6:48/6:50 pace as that is where I'm at relative to the tempo/interval workouts I do, but again on marathon day, to drop back to 7:15 pace???

tisnotover,

Interesting question and having looked over your post I advise to be very careful with running faster than CURRENT Marathon pace in workouts. This is a 'grey' area just like junk mileage is. In training you should be running one of the following paces and have a reason for it:
- Recovery Pace
- Easy Pace
- Marathon Pace
- Half Marathon Pace
- LT (Lactate Threshold) Pace
- CV (Critical Velocity) Pace
- 10km Pace
- 5km Pace
- 3km (Vo2 Max) Pace
- 400m-1500m (Speed) Paces

Each has a role to play and affects our bodys phsiology differently. If you are running a Marathon and have done a block of training aimed at 5km-10km training then your last 8-12 week block should be aimed at CV, HM and Marathon paces included in long workouts and long runs. These are the paces that will give you the most 'bang for your buck' for the Marathon.

When doing workouts at Marathon pace ALWAYS use todays (CURRENT) Marathon pace and NOT GOAL Marathon pace. Revise this as you get fitter. Going into a marathon aiming for a pace that is unrealistic is madness. Also trying to run 'Marathon' workouts in training at faster than your current Marathon pace is not a good idea. You will more than likely be running closer to HM pace and thus have completely different running mechanics and be burning more glycogen (which is not what you want to do). You need to get your body efficient at running CURRENT marathon pace and teach it to utilise fats better and spare precious glycogen stores.

Real Life Case:
My friend decided to run his first Marathon in Dublin and was convinced he could run 6.00-6.05 per mile for the 26.2 miles. He regularly trained at 6.00-6.10 pace doing longer workouts such as 3-4*3 Miles etc and found them 'tough'. i tried to explain to him that he was running at his HM pace and not marathon pace and he should be running 6.25-6.30 pace. He couldnt see it and started off in Dublin running 6.10's and working down to 6.05's by 10 miles feeling ok. He hit 12 miles and bang race over. The point is you need to be REALISTIC and use CURRENT paces in training not GOAL paces. Aim for a HM about 4-6 weeks before the big race and report back here and we'll be able to confirm your race day pace for you.

Also be careful with running paces faster than 10km pace leading up to the marathon. It isn't that 5km-3km paced workouts are "bad" for marathon runners it's that they are abused, typically. From a physiological stance, running well in the marathon requires suppression of glucose and glycogen burning rates. You have a limited supply of sugar, that is, and you can't burn it up too fast. If you set the thermostat high, it burns hot! VO2 max types of workouts set the thermostat high. It's ok to include some 3k to 5k running, but not much should be done, in my opinion, during the 10 weeks prior to the marathon. Just enough to improve leg strength, that's it!

I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big (Long) Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 80-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 80-90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

Hope that helps.

Tergat

aero2k

tergat wrote: »

In training you should be running one of the following paces and have a reason for it:
- Recovery Pace
- Easy Pace
- Marathon Pace
- Half Marathon Pace
- LT (Lactate Threshold) Pace
- CV (Critical Velocity) Pace
- 10km Pace
- 5km Pace
- 3km (Vo2 Max) Pace
- 400m-1500m (Speed) Paces

Hi tergat,

I'm reluctant to aks someone who's already contributed so much to a range of discussions for more detail, but I think it might be really helpful to lots of people on here if you could elaborate on the various paces above and the purpose of each. I'm particularly interested in CV pace - what it is and when and why I should use it. I have a very simple and crude approach to training which has been effective so far, but I think I'm reaching the point of diminishing returns and so I may have to take a different tack after Edinburgh.

tisnotover,

I think there's a lot of good advice above. I can second tergat's story about HMP vs MP - I reckon the marathon would be 20-30 sec per mile slower than HMP for someone with your 10 mile time.
It depends on your mindset as well as your physical ability. If you've got your heart set on achieving a goal time, then maybe you should be conservative. If you want to give yourself a chance at the fastest possible time, then maybe use McMillan, but be prepared for the possibility of it all going horribly wrong any time from 16 miles on (blowing up even happens to experienced marathoners). I found that hard to deal with after DCM '08, but maybe if I'd gone in feeling "ah, sure I'll give it a go and sure if I have to walk a bit, no harm done" I wouldn't have been so devastated. Keep up your disciplined training program, do a half marathon 5 or 6 weeks before the marathon, and use that to come up with a realistic PMP.
Also, regarding the weather, I'm told it hit 18 deg in places during DCM '09 but I wasn't conscious of it. I know Cork has been hot for the last two years, but that's not guaranteed for this year. Heat doesn't seem to be a huge problem if you're well prepared - I think the womens' winner last year was well under 3 hrs, and she's over 50!

tisnotover

@ Tergat,

Thanks again for the detailed post, the last time I posted something like this here was asking "How best to improve my 5-mile time", which worked and now look what i'm jumping into !?!

So if I try and put some numbers on it, my current 10mile PB is 63:30, 6:21 pace. I feel I could run 6:25-> 6:30 pace (1.24 / 1.25) for a half marathon at present.

I think the example you gave of the distinction between HMP and PMP agrees with what aero2k just posted also.

For the times listed, this would mean doing PMP runs at 6:50 -> 7:00 pace, which sounds reasonable to me...??

@ aero2k, tx for the post

--amadeus--

Like Aero I'd be really interested in a more detailed breakdown of the paces used, especially CV.

Likewise I'd like some clarity on the idea of not training faster than goal pace. I can understand teh difference if you are training massively too quickly (as in a sub 3 running doing "PMP" runs at 6:30 - 6:40 rather than 6:48 - 6:50) but is there danger to training a few seconds per mile (say a max of 5) faster than PMP? As I said above I have done this so that PMP feels comfortable, is a few secs per mile really going to shift you through the zones?

Finally if running faster than PMP is not advised then what are your recommendations for moving up to aggressive marathon targets? There are a few of us here looking to move from ~3:00 to 2:55 and 2:50 (VR, Krusty and myself for a start) how do you recommend we do so? My method in the past has been to train to planned pace to push myself on but it sounds like you think this is a bad idea. How should you train to PB?

Much appreciated!!

tergat

aero2k wrote: »

Hi tergat,

I'm reluctant to aks someone who's already contributed so much to a range of discussions for more detail, but I think it might be really helpful to lots of people on here if you could elaborate on the various paces above and the purpose of each. I'm particularly interested in CV pace - what it is and when and why I should use it. I have a very simple and crude approach to training which has been effective so far, but I think I'm reaching the point of diminishing returns and so I may have to take a different tack after Edinburgh.

tisnotover,

I think there's a lot of good advice above. I can second tergat's story about HMP vs MP - I reckon the marathon would be 20-30 sec per mile slower than HMP for someone with your 10 mile time.
It depends on your mindset as well as your physical ability. If you've got your heart set on achieving a goal time, then maybe you should be conservative. If you want to give yourself a chance at the fastest possible time, then maybe use McMillan, but be prepared for the possibility of it all going horribly wrong any time from 16 miles on (blowing up even happens to experienced marathoners). I found that hard to deal with after DCM '08, but maybe if I'd gone in feeling "ah, sure I'll give it a go and sure if I have to walk a bit, no harm done" I wouldn't have been so devastated. Keep up your disciplined training program, do a half marathon 5 or 6 weeks before the marathon, and use that to come up with a realistic PMP.
Also, regarding the weather, I'm told it hit 18 deg in places during DCM '09 but I wasn't conscious of it. I know Cork has been hot for the last two years, but that's not guaranteed for this year. Heat doesn't seem to be a huge problem if you're well prepared - I think the womens' winner last year was well under 3 hrs, and she's over 50!

aero2k,

Some info below on the paces:

1) Easy runs should be roughly 2 minutes a mile slower than TODAY’S 5km race pace
2) Tempo runs should be 1 minute a mile slower than (today's) 5km race pace
3) Long intervals (5 minutes or longer per rep) should be no faster than 5km pace
4) Medium (length) Intervals (2.5-5 minutes in length) should be no faster than 3km to 5k pace.
5) Short Intervals (30 seconds to 2.5 minutes) should be run no faster than MVO pace (Max VO2 pace - what can be run in a time trial or race that lasts 6:40 minutes at full effort) to 3k pace
6) Speed-endurance Reps (200 to 400s) should be run at 1500m to 800m pace, depending upon how many you do, the rest between reps, and the type of runner you are
7) Sprint Reps should be run at 400m pace (normally 50s to 150s), no faster unless you are an actual sprinter


Recovery runs - current 5k pace plus 2.5 minutes per mile
Regular Eesy runs - current 5k plus 2 minutes per mile
Slow Tempos - current 5k plus plus about 1:15-1:30 per minute
Regular (medium) tempos - current 5k pace plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
Fast Tempos - current 5k pace plus 30-45 seconds per mile
CV intervals - current 5k pace plus 8-10 seconds per km

CV running = 5k pace plus 8-12 seconds per km. A 16 minute 5k runner needs about 4 miles of CV running, on average, but no more than 5 miles per workout. Thus a 7-8 x 1k at CV pace (jog 200m recoveries) is about right.It raises VO2 max. It raises LT or AnT or whatever you want to call it. It improves efficiency. It raises overall leg strength (substantially more than easy distance running) and nearly as much as much as VO2 max - which is 100% of aerobic power - because you can do a lot of CV compared to VO2 max pace. CV pace can be used year round and done weekly. Using reps 800m-1200m is about right and always use CURRENT 5km pace. It is a great training tool try it out.

Hope that helps a bit.

Tergat

tergat

tisnotover wrote: »

@ Tergat,

Thanks again for the detailed post, the last time I posted something like this here was asking "How best to improve my 5-mile time", which worked and now look what i'm jumping into !?!

So if I try and put some numbers on it, my current 10mile PB is 63:30, 6:21 pace. I feel I could run 6:25-> 6:30 pace (1.24 / 1.25) for a half marathon at present.

I think the example you gave of the distinction between HMP and PMP agrees with what aero2k just posted also.

For the times listed, this would mean doing PMP runs at 6:50 -> 7:00 pace, which sounds reasonable to me...??

@ aero2k, tx for the post

tisnotover,

If you feel you can run 85 mins for a HM then 3.00-3.05 should be realistic with a good block of endurance training and getting to the start line healthy. I would use 6.55-7.00 min pace for now and revise as you get fitter.

Remember the marathon starts at 20 miles so why not get there running 7 min miles and then if feeling good drop to 6.50's. best way to run it and be careful of the start. Be controlled that first few miles to save precious glycogen (stored sugar) which is burned almost exclusively at the beginning of the race. If you run too fast, early-on, then you ruin the whole race!

Tergat

Peckham

--amadeus-- wrote: »

My method in the past has been to train to planned pace to push myself on but it sounds like you think this is a bad idea. How should you train to PB?

Much appreciated!!

Looking forward to reading the answer to this, as I could be way off with my PMP 8 miles on last Saturday's long run, ran PMP at 6:30/mi (also with a 2:55 target, ~6:35/mi target pace). Felt so confident after that run, now it's draining away!!

tergat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Like Aero I'd be really interested in a more detailed breakdown of the paces used, especially CV.

Likewise I'd like some clarity on the idea of not training faster than goal pace. I can understand teh difference if you are training massively too quickly (as in a sub 3 running doing "PMP" runs at 6:30 - 6:40 rather than 6:48 - 6:50) but is there danger to training a few seconds per mile (say a max of 5) faster than PMP? As I said above I have done this so that PMP feels comfortable, is a few secs per mile really going to shift you through the zones?

Finally if running faster than PMP is not advised then what are your recommendations for moving up to aggressive marathon targets? There are a few of us here looking to move from ~3:00 to 2:55 and 2:50 (VR, Krusty and myself for a start) how do you recommend we do so? My method in the past has been to train to planned pace to push myself on but it sounds like you think this is a bad idea. How should you train to PB?

Much appreciated!!

amadeus,

Running up to 5 secs or so faster than Marathon pace is fine once it feels comfortable. Think about it this way:

Have you ever gone out on a long run say 16-18 miles running the first 12 easy and then running the last 4-6 maybe 20-30 secs per mile faster? What happens? You quickly change your fuel burning rate and eat into your precious gylcogen stores and begin to feel flat.

During workouts where you are doing say 2-3 mile reps at marathon pace, you are teaching your body to relax at this pace, to utilise fats better and preserve those vital glycogen stores at this pace. That extra 5-10 secs faster could be enough to negate this.

Also it is TRAINING and on race day you should be able to run that pace comfortably until 16 miles or so where your endurance, mental tenacity and sheer guts kicks in to get you to the finish.

Running a marathon PB requires the following:
- Consistant Training over time staying completley injury/illness free
- Getting to the start line 100% healthy with the WORK done (Miles in the bank)
- A strong body that has adapted to the pounding of 26.2 miles on the road
- A strong mind/mental tenacity (it is not a race for those that give up easily)
- A solid training plan that first builds a strong base then focuses on 5km/10km training. Next part is your Marathon specific part before tapering.
- Patience and a realistic pace for the first half of the race

Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 10k training. The last two to three months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training.

You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise. Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training.

Marathon Training is all about two words: Big (Long) Workouts. It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

One final note, do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. It is assumed that you are healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months. If in doubt, consult a doctor who is specialist in exercise.

To keep things simple be patient, keep training consistant, looking after the little details sleep, diet etc, get in the long workouts/long runs and enjoy your running. Then your PB will come:)

Tergat

village runner

tergat wrote: »

tisnotover,

Interesting question and having looked over your post I advise to be very careful with running faster than CURRENT Marathon pace in workouts. This is a 'grey' area just like junk mileage is. In training you should be running one of the following paces and have a reason for it:
- Recovery Pace
- Easy Pace
- Marathon Pace
- Half Marathon Pace
- LT (Lactate Threshold) Pace
- CV (Critical Velocity) Pace
- 10km Pace
- 5km Pace
- 3km (Vo2 Max) Pace
- 400m-1500m (Speed) Paces

Each has a role to play and affects our bodys phsiology differently. If you are running a Marathon and have done a block of training aimed at 5km-10km training then your last 8-12 week block should be aimed at CV, HM and Marathon paces included in long workouts and long runs. These are the paces that will give you the most 'bang for your buck' for the Marathon.

When doing workouts at Marathon pace ALWAYS use todays (CURRENT) Marathon pace and NOT GOAL Marathon pace. Revise this as you get fitter. Going into a marathon aiming for a pace that is unrealistic is madness. Also trying to run 'Marathon' workouts in training at faster than your current Marathon pace is not a good idea. You will more than likely be running closer to HM pace and thus have completely different running mechanics and be burning more glycogen (which is not what you want to do). You need to get your body efficient at running CURRENT marathon pace and teach it to utilise fats better and spare precious glycogen stores.

Real Life Case:
My friend decided to run his first Marathon in Dublin and was convinced he could run 6.00-6.05 per mile for the 26.2 miles. He regularly trained at 6.00-6.10 pace doing longer workouts such as 3-4*3 Miles etc and found them 'tough'. i tried to explain to him that he was running at his HM pace and not marathon pace and he should be running 6.25-6.30 pace. He couldnt see it and started off in Dublin running 6.10's and working down to 6.05's by 10 miles feeling ok. He hit 12 miles and bang race over. The point is you need to be REALISTIC and use CURRENT paces in training not GOAL paces. Aim for a HM about 4-6 weeks before the big race and report back here and we'll be able to confirm your race day pace for you.

Also be careful with running paces faster than 10km pace leading up to the marathon. It isn't that 5km-3km paced workouts are "bad" for marathon runners it's that they are abused, typically. From a physiological stance, running well in the marathon requires suppression of glucose and glycogen burning rates. You have a limited supply of sugar, that is, and you can't burn it up too fast. If you set the thermostat high, it burns hot! VO2 max types of workouts set the thermostat high. It's ok to include some 3k to 5k running, but not much should be done, in my opinion, during the 10 weeks prior to the marathon. Just enough to improve leg strength, that's it!

I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big (Long) Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 80-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 80-90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

Hope that helps.

Tergat

tergat wrote: »

amadeus,

Running up to 5 secs or so faster than Marathon pace is fine once it feels comfortable. Think about it this way:

Have you ever gone out on a long run say 16-18 miles running the first 12 easy and then running the last 4-6 maybe 20-30 secs per mile faster? What happens? You quickly change your fuel burning rate and eat into your precious gylcogen stores and begin to feel flat.

During workouts where you are doing say 2-3 mile reps at marathon pace, you are teaching your body to relax at this pace, to utilise fats better and preserve those vital glycogen stores at this pace. That extra 5-10 secs faster could be enough to negate this.

Also it is TRAINING and on race day you should be able to run that pace comfortably until 16 miles or so where your endurance, mental tenacity and sheer guts kicks in to get you to the finish.

Running a marathon PB requires the following:
- Consistant Training over time staying completley injury/illness free
- Getting to the start line 100% healthy with the WORK done (Miles in the bank)
- A strong body that has adapted to the pounding of 26.2 miles on the road
- A strong mind/mental tenacity (it is not a race for those that give up easily)
- A solid training plan that first builds a strong base then focuses on 5km/10km training. Next part is your Marathon specific part before tapering.
- Patience and a realistic pace for the first half of the race

Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 10k training. The last two to three months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training.

You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise. Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training.

Marathon Training is all about two words: Big (Long) Workouts. It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

One final note, do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. It is assumed that you are healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months. If in doubt, consult a doctor who is specialist in exercise.

To keep things simple be patient, keep training consistant, looking after the little details sleep, diet etc, get in the long workouts/long runs and enjoy your running. Then your PB will come:)

Tergat

What did you mean "never run super hero workouts" ? Are we talking a blowout or an all out effort on the threadmill or whatever ?
Getting alot out of this thread.

tergat

village runner wrote: »

What did you mean "never run super hero workouts" ? Are we talking a blowout or an all out effort on the threadmill or whatever ?
Getting alot out of this thread.

village runner,

I have touched on some of this before but I think it is not adviseable to run 'very hard' workouts 2-3 times a week every week. I think two workouts a week is all that should be done and athletes should always have something in reserve. There are times when a 'blowout' workout is fine once you recover well but not every week. You can only race as well as you recover.

If you are going to run an important race soon and you have only done very slow distance running, you may have good aerobic endurance and your slow twitch muscle fibers are fit, but you won't be able to use your fast twitch (oxidative or glycolytic) much at all. Thus, you won't have power to get the speed to a good level. But, it only takes a handful of faster workouts to get that power up and to get those fast fibers functioning well.

The worst thing you can do is run too fast on a regular basis. You burn up your glycogen and thus have no energy to run really fast in a race. And, I think you probably jeopardize your health, too, because your endrocrine system becomes exhausted. Thus, you'll become ill quite easily.

If you run too fast on your distance runs between scheduled key workouts, then you won't run your key workouts very well. So, you might as well not run key workouts if you run fast on a daily basis.

You can run fast in races without doing fast workouts, provided you run medium to medium-fast often and you stay below the limit of where you break down and become depleted. It is a very hard thing to do. To do it well requires enormous patience and a great internal sense of when you've "had enough." I warn you, though, running medium-fast often is like playing with fire. If you get it right, it provides great warmth but if you do it wrong you burn up completely everything in sight. You can NOT run medium-fast daily and include fast workouts and races without risking overkill. The two together are hazardous.

So, the theme is this: it is important to modulate (vary) the pace of your distance runs and it is important to NOT run hard every day. If you follow a simple general philosophy, you will run no more than 2 hard workouts per week. The only exception is if you don't run much in a particular workout fast so that you can actually come back and do another moderate volume fast workout, making two moderate volume fast workouts that had the same impact or stress as one very hard workout, and thus the potential to run three faster workouts per week (but be careful!). And, during the majority of your build up to a race, you don't need to be running hard, period. Rather, a couple of challenging endurance workouts per week is about all you really need. For most runners, 5-10 fast workouts will bring them to peak fitness and performance, so why do them 2-3 times per week for many weeks in a row?

REMEMBER the key to success in distance running is staying injury/illness free and being consistant in your training over months and years (NOT WEEKS). Why risk this by trying 'super hero' workouts and getting run down or injured.

Just my thoughts/experience.

Tergat

Peckham

This is fast becoming "thread of the millennium" for marathoners - especially those of us trying to push up to the next level.

Another question for tergat - you mention running the PMP runs at today's marathon pace. Assuming that fitness improves throughout training, and that your marathon pace gets faster, this means that you're likely to only do (at most) one training session at the pace that you run in the race. Does this not defeat a key objective of PMP - i.e. getting used to clocking around 12-15 miles at the pace you run on the day?

And a related question....how do identify today's marathon pace? McMillan? I can see how it's easy to keep track on 5k/10k pace by the races that you run, but as often discussed here those types of races aren't a great predictor of where you are in terms of marathon pace.

Abhainn

tergat wrote: »

REMEMBER the key to success in distance running is staying injury/illness free and being consistant in your training over months and years (NOT WEEKS).
Tergat

I second this advise Tergat.

And finally "Be Patient" in your progress

(Great thread)