900 jobs to go at Quinn Insurance

Aids By Google · 30-04-2010 09:27PM

The 900 jobs wouldn't exist if it were not for him.

I am glad to see the regulator taking a hard line. Lord knows the mentality of those saying otherwise considering how the country got screwed because the regulator was once lax elsewhere!

eth0_ · 30-04-2010 09:34PM

Aids By Google wrote: »

The 900 jobs wouldn't exist if it were not for him.

He didn't create 900 jobs as a charity service to the people of Cavan and Blanchardstown. He expanded the company to expand his own wealth. Quinn Direct did not pay particularly well either. The employees owe him nothing and have no reason to be grateful to him when you consider how he knowingly gambled with their futures and lied through his teeth even after was caught out by the regulators.

Aids By Google · 30-04-2010 09:41PM

eth0_ wrote: »

He didn't create 900 jobs as a charity service to the people of Cavan and Blanchardstown. He expanded the company to expand his own wealth. Quinn Direct did not pay particularly well either. The employees owe him nothing and have no reason to be grateful to him when you consider how he knowingly gambled with their futures and lied through his teeth even after was caught out by the regulators.

I didn't say he did it as charity? Why should the employees, that he paid, owe him anything or be grateful to him or why should he be gratefull to them even?

Companies grow and companies fail.

Wibbs · 30-04-2010 09:55PM

Aids By Google wrote: »

Companies grow and companies fail.

No disagreement there, but when a company is driven into the ground by unwise/dodgy delete as applicable directions from the head of the company, when the same head salts away money from said company to members of his family to keep it safe, the billionaire version of "puttin the oul house in d'wifes name", then its a very different story.

If the economic downturn hadnt happened, if this country hadnt inflated a housing boom, the quinn group would have still gone under because of shady/unwise practice. Never mind the quinn group in isolation, look at the connections with Anglo that have cost the taxpayers of this country billions. Billions your grandkids will be paying off after you're gone. That's why I call for him and others like him to be brought to book and brought hard to the same book.

Of course it wont happen. He'll be fine, he'll apologise again, maybe a tribunal appearance which will cost us dear and still fcuk all will come from it and the little people, the people him and his ilk fcuked over for at least a generation into the future will still support the likes of him. And the familiar comes back again. And we deserve it.

ANDYBOND777 · 30-04-2010 10:04PM

ah here now...900 is a big number.......
it is recessionary time but still...900 job losses will hit the economy harder...

The_Minister · 30-04-2010 10:37PM

eth0_ wrote: »

He gambled his own personal fortune on Anglo because his greed knows no bounds, he messed up, so instead of taking the hit to his OWN fortune, he re-mortgaged his company. He knew he was taking another gamble. He knew how vital his company was to the people of Cavan.

But he doesn't give a crap about the "little people".

He owns the company, he did take a hit to his fortune.

He shouldn't have risked his assets like that, by breaking the regulations, but I don't see how you can give out about him not caring that his company is important to Cavan, and then in a later post refuse to give him an credit for creating jobs there (even though he really would have been better elsewhere).

ejmaztec · 30-04-2010 10:52PM

Quinn was like many of the high fliers in this country, so blinded by the big numbers flying around, and imaging that they were so wealthy that nothing could possibly go wrong.

The only thing wrong now is that the greedy bastards are still roaming free, not giving a flying fuck about the devastation left behind.

The Quinns won't be down the dole office.

eth0_ · 30-04-2010 11:11PM

The_Minister wrote: »

He owns the company, he did take a hit to his fortune.

The hit he took was to his OWN money when he bought shares in Anglo, not Quinn Group's money.

eth0_ · 30-04-2010 11:13PM

Aids By Google wrote: »

I didn't say he did it as charity? Why should the employees, that he paid, owe him anything or be grateful to him or why should he be gratefull to them even?

Companies grow and companies fail.

"The 900 jobs wouldn't exist if it were not for him" <-- sort of implies that you thought he was doing the people of Cavan a favour by employing them.

Quinn Direct has not "failed" as a business. It has a massive customer base and it makes huge amounts of profits. It was placed into administration because Sean Quinn removed a shedload of cash from the business.

clikityclak · 30-04-2010 11:15PM

Where i live a good 60 miles from the nearest Quinn office, but people in my area are already worrying a about the fall out... It's suprising how far the spin off business spans.
Sean Quinn may have built his business from nothing, provided jobs etc., but at the end of the day it was for his own back pocket.
He's a gambler and it was only a matter of time before his house of cards fell...
The poor workers

K-9 · 01-05-2010 01:20AM

I am extremely sad that 90O people will lose jobs because of a badly managed company. This hass happened to thousands of people in the last couple of years in industries like Construction but the reasons for it are astounding. It really shows what was going on in this country due to lack of regulation:

Seán Quinn's risky business

Here you have what Quinn did with Anglo and indirectly the Quinn Group put in perspective:
Quinn's Anglo bet 'biggest cfd loss ever'

To quote from the article:

David Buick of financial bookie Cantor Fitzgerald said that the losses Sean Quinn made betting on a single share, Anglo Irish, through contracts for difference (CFDs) were "undoubtedly" the biggest an individual has suffered in the history of CFD trading.

Remember this is Ireland, a small country on a small bank, well, what should have been a small bank!

Another quote:

Leading market historian David Schwartz, who also writes on his stock-market trading activities for the Financial Times, said that Sean Quinn's overall losses were "eye-watering" regardless of whether they propelled him to near the top list of those losing most money in the stock market crash. Big investors such as Bill Gates and Warren Buffett would have lost more but over a longer period, he said.

Its GUBU material to quote Charles J., Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre and Unprecedented

Wudyaquit · 01-05-2010 02:39AM

Aidric wrote: »

Certainly will. They should direct their anger square at the door of Sean Quinn. Ironic really, he giveth then he take it away with recklessness.

T-Square wrote: »

Sean Quinn has a lot to say sorry for.

eth0_ wrote: »

That's reported and you're talking about the Quinn Group. Quinn insurance was removed from the Quinn Group by the High Court earlier this month.

The only person to blame here is Sean Quinn. He's the epitome of the vile cancer of greed that has invaded this country in the last 20 years or so. He lost a fortune buying shares in Anglo so to cover his personal losses he took another massive gamble and remortgaged the company! Except this time there was no risk of personal loss to him, but massive loss to his 900 employees.

Hopefully a buyer will be found and these jobs will be saved but it's galling that Sean Quinn won't receive any punishment for this. He has lied and lied and lied, and I feel so sorry for the Quinn employees who have been sucked in by him to the extent they demonstrated on his behalf to stop the company being put into administration, completely ignoring the fact it was entirely HIS FAULT. Vile, vile man.

Inquitus wrote: »

To run an insurance group you have to keep a required level of capital to cover claims. Making a million a day may be true, but if we had a disaster like the floods of a few years ago, an insurer flouting the rules like Quinn may not be able to pay the claims resulting.

Its like a bookie who only lays 100/1 shots, but doesn't have the money behind him to pay, one day one of the 100/1 donkeys finally wins a race, and he can't payout.

Quinns the disgrace here, and his refusal to follow the rules.

I've only gone through the first page but what an unaldulterated pack of self-righteous bull****.

"Aaarrrgghh I hate Gombeenism and this new fella's sorted it all out. God bless him That Quinn fella got what's comin to him, the huare"

I'm not even going to argue the facts, as as an employee I've argued them on here over the last couple of weeks and had no balanced response yet. Half of the loudmouth begrudgers with nothing to lose have taken great satisfaction in what's happened thinking it's not going to affect them and whatever the loss, at least the big bad wolf might be gone.

Yesterday's news is not good news for anyone. Not the employees, their families, or the Irish taxpayer, who will now have to pick up the tab.
And point the finger at Quinn all ya want. The Financial Regulator has purposely lost tens of millions of euros going against the advice of the Administrators. The new golden child, Elderfield can do no wrong, but regardless of posters' opinions of Quinn and his disasterous investment in Anglo, a bad situation has exacerbated terribly by Elderfield's pride and short-sightedness, forcing one of Ireland's most successful companies to the brink.

Dress your opinions up all you like, but all it comes down to is good old Irish begrudgery, mixed with a fair bit of ignorance of the facts

Inquitus · 01-05-2010 07:51AM

Wudyaquit wrote: »

I've only gone through the first page but what an unaldulterated pack of self-righteous bull****.

"Aaarrrgghh I hate Gombeenism and this new fella's sorted it all out. God bless him That Quinn fella got what's comin to him, the huare"

I'm not even going to argue the facts, as as an employee I've argued them on here over the last couple of weeks and had no balanced response yet. Half of the loudmouth begrudgers with nothing to lose have taken great satisfaction in what's happened thinking it's not going to affect them and whatever the loss, at least the big bad wolf might be gone.

Yesterday's news is not good news for anyone. Not the employees, their families, or the Irish taxpayer, who will now have to pick up the tab.
And point the finger at Quinn all ya want. The Financial Regulator has purposely lost tens of millions of euros going against the advice of the Administrators. The new golden child, Elderfield can do no wrong, but regardless of posters' opinions of Quinn and his disasterous investment in Anglo, a bad situation has exacerbated terribly by Elderfield's pride and short-sightedness, forcing one of Ireland's most successful companies to the brink.

Dress your opinions up all you like, but all it comes down to is good old Irish begrudgery, mixed with a fair bit of ignorance of the facts

There is simply no defending Quinn in this situation, the company was operating outside of the required capital ratios for an insurer. To do so is against the rules and also gives the company an artificial advantage over competitors. What makes me sick is all the fools defending Quinn and arguing for any other course of action.

Yes its bad for Ireland, bad for Navan among other places, and bad for the employees, but it's noones fault bar Sean Quinn's, and unfortunately whats happening is necessary.

SarahMs · 01-05-2010 09:15AM

'900 hand jobs to go in Quinns'

thats what no sleep and dyslexia doz to ya.....

danbohan · 01-05-2010 09:50AM

betafrog wrote: »

The company has been overstaffed for years.

and that's based on what ?, you have inside information, please do share , now the company that's really overstaffed for years here is our public service hopefully we can shed a third of jobs there too

ch750536 · 01-05-2010 10:11AM

The backward attitude to this was showing last night, the number of people who blamed the English for this.... unreal.

'The english want to take over the company, that's why it's an Englishman making the decisions.'

When I made the point that it was a disgrace that people were being put in a place where they would not have been paid due to the corrupt, immoral but sadly not illegal behaviour of Quinn they leapt to his defence.

wtf?

I totally support the financial regulator here, should have closed Anglo too.

Its a shame for those losing jobs but there is chance that someone will but the company.

dixiefly · 01-05-2010 10:24AM

SugarHigh wrote: »

"Navan will be particularly badly hit, with around half the workforce going, 109 out of 220. 37 will go in the first phase."

That's a huge building in Navan it must be practically empty already.

Edit: It was built to to hold 700 jobs but will now be holding just 87.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/quinn-to-open-700-job-facility-in-navan-85592.html

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2010/04/30/3996770-more-than-half-quinns-navan-workforce-face-redundancy/

First of all I suspect that Quinn has been more than a little niaive in his dealings with Seanie Fitz and his cohorts. I would say that Quinn got sucked into the belief that he was being offered a deal that was impossible to refuse - a no brainer. Of course he was being selfish but he didnt get to where he is without making big decisions and going for broke on some deals, investments etc.
He has made big big mistakes but, in my opinion, he is a different case to Fitzspatrick, Fingelton, Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowan, Charlie McCreery who are culpable for the bigger mess in their organisations / the country and whom, in my opinion, carried out many of their actions for their own / their parties gain.

I would also worry about the future of the Navan office. Anyone running the organisation with any sense will look to get efficiencies and it is hard to see them continuing with the office if there are only 87 employees left with other offices in Cavan & Blanchardstown.

danbohan · 01-05-2010 10:28AM

betafrog wrote: »

Having worked for the company and knowing several higher ups... Quinn's policy was never to let people go, instead they just keep moving them around within the company and hiring new people. What's more there are often several teams doing work that would struggle to keep more than a few people busy.

sean quinn might be a lot of things , but a charity i doubt , he was pretty ruthless employer in the early years for sure , so keeping people on if it was cost to company seems unlikely ,

JohnCleary · 01-05-2010 10:36AM

danbohan wrote: »

and that's based on what ?, you have inside information, please do share , now the company that's really overstaffed for years here is our public service hopefully we can shed a third of jobs there too

First hand information that the Insurance company was overstaffed. For example in claims, staff generally had about 20-30 claims per head. Comparing that with Hibernian, where one member of staff could have up to 200 claims.

Yes, i'd call that over-staffed compared to other rival companies anyhow.

dixiefly · 01-05-2010 10:40AM

JohnCleary wrote: »

First hand information that the Insurance company was overstaffed. For example in claims, staff generally had about 20-30 claims per head. Comparing that with Hibernian, where one member of staff could have up to 200 claims.

Yes, i'd call that over-staffed compared to other rival companies anyhow.

How were they able to be competitive if the efficiencies were that different? They were touted as the company with the lowest costs / best efficiencies.

JohnCleary · 01-05-2010 10:49AM

goat2 wrote: »

is this true
cannot beleive this
the numbers dont add up
so they could offload mroe than half the staff, and still keep going full tilt
as there is a big diference between 30 and 200
sorry a sixth of the staff is all that is needed at that rate

I don't care if you don't believe it, this is an internet forum, i'm not going to lose sleep over your thoughts. You asked a question (doubted another poster) and I backed it up with my own first hand information which is fact (to me - I don't care what you think)

Wudyaquit · 01-05-2010 10:58AM

JohnCleary wrote: »

First hand information that the Insurance company was overstaffed. For example in claims, staff generally had about 20-30 claims per head. Comparing that with Hibernian, where one member of staff could have up to 200 claims.

Yes, i'd call that over-staffed compared to other rival companies anyhow.

And yet they were massively profitable.
Me no countie so good.

Wibbs · 01-05-2010 11:45AM

The_Minister wrote: »

He shouldn't have risked his assets like that, by breaking the regulations,

That's the important bit.

Wudyaquit wrote: »

I've only gone through the first page but what an unaldulterated pack of self-righteous bull****.

"Aaarrrgghh I hate Gombeenism and this new fella's sorted it all out. God bless him That Quinn fella got what's comin to him, the huare"

That goes the other way and we have people saying "ah shure is Quinn a fine man, gave us all these jobs and made one little mistake, shure dont we all do that. How dare these people, especially brits make any comment".

I'm not even going to argue the facts, as as an employee I've argued them on here over the last couple of weeks and had no balanced response yet. Half of the loudmouth begrudgers with nothing to lose have taken great satisfaction in what's happened thinking it's not going to affect them and whatever the loss, at least the big bad wolf might be gone.

No. Only an idiot would take satisfaction at the loss of so many peoples jobs and security and probably more loss before this is over.

Yesterday's news is not good news for anyone. Not the employees, their families, or the Irish taxpayer, who will now have to pick up the tab.

No its not and we will all be living with the fallout for many many years to come.

And point the finger at Quinn all ya want.

Oh I do and I point the finger at previous regulators and the lack of checks and balances across the board. People who were tasked with watching out for potentially dangerous and unsustainable business practices.

The Financial Regulator has purposely lost tens of millions of euros going against the advice of the Administrators. The new golden child, Elderfield can do no wrong, but regardless of posters' opinions of Quinn and his disasterous investment in Anglo, a bad situation has exacerbated terribly by Elderfield's pride and short-sightedness, forcing one of Ireland's most successful companies to the brink.

If it was one of "Ireland's most successful companies" we would not find ourselves in this sorry situation. Quinn had a very high risk set of assets for too long. Undercutting the market in a race to the bottom with not enough money to cover the costs of paying out. Basically they were selling under cost across the board looking for market share. In the UK they were at it too. Underwriting small to medium sized solicitors business. A very high risk group. In any event the money wasnt there to cover the costs. The buck had to stop somewhere. Then the "disastrous investment" in Anglo was the straw huge plank of wood that broke the camels back.

Like so many Irish people were doing in homes up and down the country during the "boom" mania, they were bouncing one credit card against another, remortgaging to buy the new swanky kitchen/car/flat in spain while spending more than they could earn all predicated on non sustainable economics. Now like them, they cant understand why they can't buy their new car or make repayments on the house or feck off to Thailand on a whim anymore.

The banks were doing similar, the builders, the developers, the government, the public and private sector, aer lingus the same. Its a damn pity that more werent run like ryanair during the boom or we'd still have a boom and a sustainable one at that.

Wibbs · 01-05-2010 11:52AM

Wudyaquit wrote: »

Me no countie so good.

It seems a common problem in the company at the top level too.

And yet they were massively profitable.

Profits have to be set against costs and potential costs. People were and are confusing this. If there are insufficient funds to cover the costs of running the business, then "profits" mean very little. They didnt have the resources to cover claims should they come in and they were underwriting high risk markets. That's neither profitable nor sustainable. But like I said another example of a form of Hibernoeconomics that was at play in the last 15 years in many businesses and homes in this country.

Wudyaquit · 01-05-2010 01:13PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Profits have to be set against costs and potential costs. People were and are confusing this. If there are insufficient funds to cover the costs of running the business, then "profits" mean very little. They didnt have the resources to cover claims should they come in and they were underwriting high risk markets. That's neither profitable nor sustainable. But like I said another example of a form of Hibernoeconomics that was at play in the last 15 years in many businesses and homes in this country.

If you don't think the company was making money you're in a minority that doesn't include the administrators who've been through the finances with a fine tooth comb at this stage.
The company made profits every year in the UK, up until last year, when most of the insurance companies there recorded losses and were forced to increase premiums this year.
The professional indemnity business was loss making, but a small fraction of the overall business and the company had already decided to get rid of that arm of the business.

We know they didn't have the required margins, but it would have taken a very short length of time to get them to the required levels if they'd been allowed to trade normally. The disproportionate response by the regulator and his refusal to listen to the administrators who were running the business ensured the company had no chance of avoiding lay-offs.

goat2 · 01-05-2010 01:36PM

i only have good things to say about this company
my children would never have been able to get an insurance
as all the others were priced way out of their league
quinn can be thanked for that, i found staff very helpful, and my kids got their first insurance from his company at a decent price, if i had to depend on any other insurance company and beleive me i tried them all.
my offsprings would only been able to afford being named drivers
so thank you quinn direct

Venom · 01-05-2010 01:49PM

goat2 wrote: »

i only have good things to say about this company
my children would never have been able to get an insurance
as all the others were priced way out of their league
quinn can be thanked for that, i found staff very helpful, and my kids got their first insurance from his company at a decent price, if i had to depend on any other insurance company and beleive me i tried them all.
my offsprings would only been able to afford being named drivers
so thank you quinn direct

Pity the company lacked the funds to back up the premiums sold to you're children.

Mike 1972 · 01-05-2010 01:53PM

Wudyaquit wrote: »

And yet they were massively profitable..

Phase 1: Collect Underpants
Phase 2: ? Start insurance company with insufficent reserves
Phase 3: Profit !

K-9 · 01-05-2010 01:54PM

Venom wrote: »

Pity the company lacked the funds to back up the premiums sold to you're children.

But sure I'm alright Jack.

Wibbs · 01-05-2010 01:59PM

Wudyaquit wrote: »

If you don't think the company was making money you're in a minority that doesn't include the administrators who've been through the finances with a fine tooth comb at this stage.

Again you're confusing profits with sustainability. Never mind the ability to pay claims, they had a serious liquidity risk with too much(a third) wrapped up in an unsafe property market that has since crashed.

We know they didn't have the required margins, but it would have taken a very short length of time to get them to the required levels if they'd been allowed to trade normally. The disproportionate response by the regulator and his refusal to listen to the administrators who were running the business ensured the company had no chance of avoiding lay-offs.

I'm pretty confident that if the administrators hadnt been brought in you would still have had lay offs and actually more lay offs.

Look this chant of "we can trade our way out of this" is not a recent thing. The regulator has been concerned for quite a while with Quinns ability to cover its costs. In 08 the group was fined a 3,250,000(plus 200,000 for Mr Quinn personally) for inter company loans to cover personal investment losses in among other areas Anglo. Back in 08 they themselves also admitted that their recovery plan was not viable. This continued up to the present and when this lack of realist economic thinking hit a certain point the regulator stepped in. Too little too late IMHO.

The company was run over the last few years wearing blinders and thats being charitable. Sadly the blinders are still on.

900 jobs to go at Quinn Insurance

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