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  • 19-04-2010 12:39AM
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭


    I'm 24 and I'm half Irish and half English. I lived in England until I was 11, then in Northern Ireland after that but went to a Protestant school so never learned any Irish. I went to college in Dublin but never learned it there either, as so many people gave me the impression that it was a near impossible language to learn,telling me they'd done it for 15 years and could barely say a sentence etc. I was already doing a degree in Spanish and French, so learning another language which I probably would never speak well didn't seem appealing. I was also put off by the fact that I'd probably sound like an idiot trying to pronounce words which come so easily to any Irish person - took me ages to figure out 'Aras an Phiarsaigh (sp?)' in Trinity, yet any Irish person would immediately know how to say it, having grown up learning the language.

    I now really, really want to learn some Irish. I hate not knowing the language of my ancestors (well half of them), I hate not being able to pronounce Irish names even though I've spent most of my life there. I'm living in London now so cheap Irish courses are thin on the ground, as well as places to practise, but I'm determined to learn something. My boyfriend grew up in Ireland but like most Irish people, his knowledge of the language is really patchy. I can say the numbers 1-10, the days of the week, conas ata tu and very basic things like that, but I'd like to learn more. What would be the best approach to take? I watch the news and weather in Irish but get frustrated as I can only pick out a few words - I can't imagine ever being able to understand it all, it must take years?! Whereas with Spanish, I was able to do that within six months, and understand most of it. What should I do?


Comments

  • #2
    Intothesea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    Hello Izzy. There's method in the apparent madness of Irish that you're likely to uncover a lot sooner than most given that you're already a linguist :) Are you interested in learning a particular dialect at all? (though at the early learning stage this is mostly a question of pronunciation styles). For starting out I'd go with:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Learning-Irish-Introductory-Self-tutor-Language/dp/0300064624/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271667683&sr=8-1 -- a basic learning text nicely oriented towards those with good linguistic background.

    Along with http://www.amazon.co.uk/Turas-Teanga-Eamonn-O-Donaill/dp/0717137430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271667924&sr=1-1 -- this is more useful for pronunciations initially, and could be useful basic revision for your other half.

    Useful dictionaries might be: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Focloir-Poca-Irish-English-English-Irish-Dictionary/dp/1857910478/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1271668263&sr=1-1-spell for basic discussion and http://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Irish-Dictionary-Edited-T-Bhaldraithe/dp/B000WQFVD8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271668310&sr=1-2 (English-Irish) and http://www.amazon.co.uk/Focloir-Gaeilge-Bearla-Irish-English-Dictionary-ODonaill/dp/1857910389/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271668377&sr=1-5 (Irish-English) for more satisfying discussion.

    Some online communities:
    http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/board-topics.html
    http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/

    Hope that helps and go n-éirí go geal leat! (may you succeed with it) :)


  • #3
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    I think you will catch on with Irish with your language background, Irish isn't a difficult language it's just different and Irish is alot more easy to read then English once you get to grips with what letter combos make what sound, it's more regular phonetically
    Irish is a very idiomatic language and with the copula "is" and preposition "le" you can say a whole load of things

    le(with) + mé(me/I) = liom(with me)

    is maith liom - i like (lit. is good with me)
    is féidir liom - i can (is possible with me)
    is fearr liom - i prefer (is better with me)
    is mian liom - i wish (is a desire with me)
    is breá liom - i love (is fine with me)

    just for a an example


  • #4
    pog it
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    Hi Izzy, just wondering if you have tried to find a beginners Irish conversation group in London with a teacher/facilitator? Or have you tried Irish pubs, internet, etc. to find a beginners class?

    I think that would give you a good start. After that there are loads and loads of Irish books and cds. Some of these focus on specific dialects- like Donegal dialect, Conamara dialect, etc. so like Intothesea mentioned there, it would be a big help for you if you listened to the dialects and picked the one you'd like to have yourself! And then you can find the language books/cds that teach that dialect.

    At the very beginning when you are really trying to learn Irish and listening to different dialects, it can get really confusing, and it can hold you back a bit, that's why it is good to choose the dialect as early as possible.

    Irish is harder than French or Spanish at the beginning, but once you get in on it, you get faster and faster at picking things up. You just can't translate from English into Irish as easily as English into French or Spanish.
    But to be honest it's a much more intense and beautiful language than French Spanish or German and worth the extra effort.

    As always, having goals in life is really good to keep you motivated. If you set out 12 months with some kind of 'ceann scríbe' (destination!) planned for the end of that period, that will keep you practicing and learning.


  • #5
    Jay Pentatonic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭Jay Pentatonic


    Intothesea wrote: »

    Useful dictionaries might be: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Focloir-Poca-Irish-English-English-Irish-Dictionary/dp/1857910478/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1271668263&sr=1-1-spell

    +1 on this,
    it was one of the first things I bought when I started out, & I found the pronunciation guide very helpful & easy to follow, still use it today! :)


  • #6
    MissHoneyBun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭MissHoneyBun


    If you are really serious about learning to speak Irish I'd forget language courses if I were you. Reason being, the language is learned in isolation and with little or no application to everyday life. Learning via a language course may help you to acquire an academic comprehension of the language but in order to recall the skills you learn, they need to be applied in a practical capacity ie. spoken in everyday life. As is the case with most languages, you either 'Use it or lose it', which is why Des Bishop is now a fluent Irish speaker whilst the remainder of the country flounder over the basics despite their years of learning Irish academically.

    My advice would be to immerse yourself in the language if possible. Spend time in a Gaeltacht region or join a local Cumann na nGael and put what you learn into practice. Exposure to and regular use of the language are the most important steps towards fluency.


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  • #7
    pog it
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    MissHoneyBun wrote: »
    If you are really serious about learning to speak Irish I'd forget language courses if I were you. Reason being, the language is learned in isolation and with little or no application to everyday life. Learning via a language course may help you to acquire an academic comprehension of the language but in order to recall the skills you learn, they need to be applied in a practical capacity ie. spoken in everyday life. As is the case with most languages, you either 'Use it or lose it', which is why Des Bishop is now a fluent Irish speaker whilst the remainder of the country flounder over the basics despite their years of learning Irish academically.

    My advice would be to immerse yourself in the language if possible. Spend time in a Gaeltacht region or join a local Cumann na nGael and put what you learn into practice. Exposure to and regular use of the language are the most important steps towards fluency.

    But did you not read that the OP is in London? She can't go to a Gaeltacht region or speak it every day like Des Bishop who was immersed in it, while he was making his TV program with the native speakers.

    There is some good advice in your message, about joining a group like Cumann na nGael, but 'Use it or lose it' doesn't apply with languages, just like riding a bicycle- You never forget. You may be unused to it when you pick it up again, but it comes back to you really quickly. Like I came back to French a month ago, almost 10 years after leaving secondary school, and I'm pretty much back to my Leaving Cert standard with not that much effort- just from watching DVDs, going over verbs, etc. And I came out of school with decent French, unlike Irish. Irish is not taught properly, the majority of people don't leave school with much Irish at all, so you can't 'lose' what you don't have.

    There is no one way into a language. And truly, you don't need to speak it constantly to learn how to speak it. It's more important to listen to good native speakers on RnaG and TG4, read loads, looking up all the new things, so that you actually know what something is in Irish. Talk to yourself in the car, wherever, and get used to hearing yourself speak. 90% of your spoken fluency will come from self-study, not from speaking it.

    There is an American guy who is a scriptwriter for Ros na Run. I met him in Conamara.
    He speaks 100% like a native- no caighdeán Irish!- proper beautiful native spoken Irish, and he said he was fluent before he got to Ireland! Yes he joined a class in America with others, but he said he learned it from cds and audio. He is a huge role model, but not as well known as Des Bishop the comedian of course. The point is that his is fluent natural use of language- his Irish is at same level as his English!

    I am so grateful to Des Bishop for what he did, but he isn't what you would call "fluent" in Irish- he has a very good grasp of conversational Irish. I think he'd be the first to admit that. But he is a fantastic role model to encourage people to come back to Irish. After that - it's will and time put in that gets you properly fluent.


  • #8
    MissHoneyBun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭MissHoneyBun


    pog it wrote: »
    There is some good advice in your message, about joining a group like Cumann na nGael, but 'Use it or lose it' doesn't apply with languages, just like riding a bicycle- You never forget. .

    Tell that to the thousands who learned Irish in isolation in schools without putting it into practice and now can't speak a word of it as a result. And riding a bicycle is an entirely different procedure pog it and has no comparison to learning a language, as it's mainly a sensori-motor process which allows our muscle memory to recall and implement the action. Language learning is primarily a cognitive based process and therefore needs to be used regularly in order to move it from short-term to long-term memory.


  • #9
    pog it
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    MissHoneyBun wrote: »
    Tell that to the thousands who learned Irish in isolation in schools without putting it into practice and now can't speak a word of it as a result. And riding a bicycle is an entirely different procedure pog it and has no comparison to learning a language, as it's mainly a sensori-motor process which allows our muscle memory to recall and implement the action. Language learning is primarily a cognitive based process and therefore needs to be used regularly in order to move it from short-term to long-term memory.

    That's why I said Irish is not taught properly - so you cannot 'lose' it- you don't 'have' it leaving school. It's such a shame- and funnily people hate 'Irish' then and not the system = Department of Education and the Minister for Education with the final say in curriculum- of course the civil servants in the Dept. who come up with their excuses of 'curriculums' - not to mention the national school teachers who are in the career to get a good quality of living out of it mostly. Much easier for people to turn on the language than blame shoddy teaching in national school- they make a waste of your 8 years 'learning' Irish there.

    No I really do believe that picking up a language (once you had learned it and been taught it properly) is like riding a bicycle - in so far as you don't lose it.

    Well that's my experience of it anyway with French. I had to start over with Irish, but still it was a help to have learned it in school- better than nothing.

    I'd be interested in hearing your own level of Irish (near-native/ conversational/beginner) and how you got to it.


  • #10
    pog it
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    Oops, sorry OP, if you reading this, didn't mean to go off on a tangent, but I guess something there may be a help anyway..


  • #11
    MissHoneyBun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭MissHoneyBun


    I'm not sure why you're directing an anti-teacher tirade at me because I agree entirely that the Irish language was destroyed by outdated methodolgies used in Irish classrooms for years. And of course things are easier to recall once they're already learned pogit but that's not the issue here. The OP is at the stage of learning, not recall.

    And like I suggested to the OP, the process of learning a language involves cleachtadh, cleachtadh agus baint as an gcleachtadh aris! And the best way to do this is to immerse yourself in the language so you have exposure to high frequency words, pronunciation, comprehension, and of course the opportunity to put all the knowledge you acquire into practice. Because at the end of the day, that's what the essence of a language is about. To speak it and to communciate it. Not to keep it inside your head. So the OP will need to actively seek out opportunities to speak the language functionally and communicatively. Otherwise, all she will have is an academic understanding inside her head.

    I am a fluent speaker as a result of using the language I was taught as much as I could, at any given opportunity. My motivation was derived mainly from a love of the language but also by being lucky to have a very passionate Primary School teacher followed by an inspirational Secondary School teacher. I suppose there was also an element of me having a natural aptitude for languages. I went on to study Irish in university then, started teaching Irish in Secondary Schools as part of an outreach programme with the college, was involved with my local Cumann na nGael, spent lots of time in Ceathra Rua and Corca Dhuibhne. Even my nights out were spent in the Conradh on Harcourt Street! So yeah I guess I'm speaking from experience when I suggest immersing yourself in the language to develop fluency, which was one of the things suggested to me by the great Mr Maidhc Dainin O Se. Cad mar gheall ar tusa?

    I would also like to take this opportunity to point out to you that the 1999 Curriculum adopts an entirely different approach to teaching Irish than perhaps you are familiar with.


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  • #12
    pog it
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    MissHoneyBun wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you're directing an anti-teacher tirade at me because I agree entirely that the Irish language was destroyed by outdated methodolgies used in Irish classrooms for years. And of course things are easier to recall once they're already learned pogit but that's not the issue here. The OP is at the stage of learning, not recall.

    And like I suggested to the OP, the process of learning a language involves cleachtadh, cleachtadh agus baint as an gcleachtadh aris! And the best way to do this is to immerse yourself in the language so you have exposure to high frequency words, pronunciation, comprehension, and of course the opportunity to put all the knowledge you acquire into practice. Because at the end of the day, that's what the essence of a language is about. To speak it and to communciate it. Not to keep it inside your head. So the OP will need to actively seek out opportunities to speak the language functionally and communicatively. Otherwise, all she will have is an academic understanding inside her head.

    I am a fluent speaker as a result of using the language I was taught as much as I could, at any given opportunity. My motivation was derived mainly from a love of the language but also by being lucky to have a very passionate Primary School teacher followed by an inspirational Secondary School teacher. I suppose there was also an element of me having a natural aptitude for languages. I went on to study Irish in university then, started teaching Irish in Secondary Schools as part of an outreach programme with the college, was involved with my local Cumann na nGael, spent lots of time in Ceathra Rua and Corca Dhuibhne. Even my nights out were spent in the Conradh on Harcourt Street! So yeah I guess I'm speaking from experience when I suggest immersing yourself in the language to develop fluency, which was one of the things suggested to me by the great Mr Maidhc Dainin O Se. Cad mar gheall ar tusa?

    I would also like to take this opportunity to point out to you that the 1999 Curriculum adopts an entirely different approach to teaching Irish than perhaps you are familiar with.

    Gosh it wasn't a tirade, nor was I challenging you. I was just giving my side of the argument re. use it or lose it, and re. you must speak the language to learn how to speak it fluently, which I didn't agree with..

    But there are many ways into language learning - does my example of the man from the US not illustrate that? He speaks 100% like a native speaker from Conamara. To be honest that example was for the OP as they are in London..

    The only familiarity I have with the more recent Irish curriculum is from my little brother who did his in 2008! I have his books!! Also I'm very familiar with the 'literature-lite' curriculum they are enforcing now, reducing the native speakers to the same exam as students in the Galltacht.

    The Dept. of Education and the widespread poor teaching is to blame.

    4 out of the 5 teachers I had in national school were more interested in renewing their car registration plate and wardrobe than they were in teaching Irish properly. So I only had 2 years with a really good teacher in ational school- 2 years out of 8. That's ain't good enough.


  • #13
    whatthefeck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭whatthefeck



    Hi IzzyWizzy

    You may find this useful Giota Beag: Irish Level 1


  • #14
    lfqnic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 169 ✭✭lfqnic


    Hi Izzy,

    [Gabh mo leithsceál pogit and misshoneybun, not trying to steam-roller your debate!]

    I was in a veeeery similar position to you - I'm from the north and went to a state school, so I didn't have the slightest experience of the language until I was 20 even though I desperately wanted to learn it. I know just how frustrating it is trying to get dribs and drabs by yourself, and hunting for night classes which are too far/too dear/finished/undersubscribed - arrrgh! Not fun.

    But don't despair. Admittedly I'm in a far better position than you because I had a bit of a breakthrough with Irish when I moved to Dublin, but there are ways around it for you too. Firstly, I met a guy at a crash-course in Belfast recently from London who does classes with Irish Pride (? that sounds like a bread make but I'm almost sure!) and the London Irish Centre - I think they have a few branches.
    You might be surprised at how many courses there are about if you keep looking, but more importantly once you meet people associated with them you'll be kept in the know-how about informal things like conversation classes, and places were you can go to speak whatever Irish you have. It sounds terrifying, but quite a lot of people cut their teeth that way - as my dad says, you sweat for six months and then click, you can speak some Irish, well.
    This London guy had an interesting approach - he went to night classes when he could (which was an absolutely major part of how I progressed in the language reasonably quickly, I went out for hours week in week out and, unfortunately, paid through the nose for it) but he also made a point of being really organised and buying cheap flights to accessible places where Irish crashcourses were running, so by the time I met him he'd not only spent a few weeks in the Gaeltacht - massive investment that I can't really afford to do and I live in the same province, so I know its not easy! - but he'd attended a bunch of these weekend long courses too, and it showed.
    In a strange way, the status of Irish in the North makes it more accessible, in that you'd be hard pushed to find profiteering language groups in Belfast - everything is cheap, cheap cheap. So if you have a weekend off, you could consider coming to some of these relatively frequent crashcourses - An Droichead's are excellent and never more than £15-25 inc. lunch and tea etc. Or if you fancy an Irish language holiday but can't afford the Gaeltacht, there is another excellent crash course in Belfast during the West Belfast Festival, which is 5 mornings or evenings for like... £15. I'm not canvassing for Ulster Irish by the way hah its just the one I know ;)

    If you do have to keep going it alone, you can still get reasonably good from exposing yourself to the language as much as you possibly can. I know its frustrating and feels pointless to listen to something you can't understand, but TG4 and RnaG are really great resources for training your ear. Before you understand a single word you'll get an idea of how native speakers talk, which will help you no end when you're trying to speak yourself (though thats not to say you should put on a Donegal accent!). Once you start understanding, the folks on RnaG are genuinely fascinating to listen to!
    TG4 is good too - I can see why you're getting annoyed with the weather.. why not pick something a bit more engaging, so that while you're listening you can also follow a story? I'm guessing it would be a lot more palatable. They have subtitled soap operas in their online archive - Ros na Rún is always popular among learners, and Aifric [Gaeltacht Home and Away] - some comedy and reality shows (an crisis, barr an ranga) and some really interesting documentaries (check out fíorscéal).
    This is ridiculously long but to finish up, if you do go down the road of self-taught courses, as someone who must understand grammar reasonably well, Learning Irish might be the one for you, or if you want something a bit less dense and intimidating, I think the Tús Maith series are really good. focal.ie and irishdictionary.ie are your friends, and as someone else pointed out, BBC Irish page has podcasts for learners and stuff.

    Ádh mór ort! Good luck :)


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