Greatest Irish Traitor: Neary Vs MacMurrough Vs Cowen vs Fitzpatrick

DeVore wrote: »

Hi,

Mate of mine and I were kicking around this question yesterday over a few pints, as you do! So, we both thought we'd ask on Boards, and I figured this was the best place.

So, everyone is most likely aware of Mr Neary's recent activities in the banking sector.... But some might need a recap on this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermot_MacMurrough


So, what do you think? Vote in the poll and/or post here. Its just a bit of fun...

DeV.

...and more properly belongs in AH.

moderately,
Scofflaw

How is Cowen a traitor? Sure he's doing a shite job but if it wasn't for Bertie he wouldn't even be the taoiseacht.

Does anyone in that list fit the bill as a Traitor according to the constitution?

Treason shall consist only in levying war against the State, or assisting any State or person or inciting or conspiring with any person to levy war against the State, or attempting by force of arms or other violent means to overthrow the organs of government established by this Constitution, or taking part or being concerned in or inciting or conspiring with any person to make or to take part or be concerned in any such attempt.

Dev, you - and most of the Media misunderstand the term traitor.

Yes, these bank officials have all but wrecked the country, but they are not traitors

You need to intentionally do harm with the aim to harm the country to be called a traitor...

These people were business men.. obviously poor ones, regulated by a regulator that didnt regulate.

Stephen Ireland.. Hes a fcuking traitor

The Catholic Church as an entity are the greatest traitors against the Irish people.

There is no such thing as a traitor against a government IMO, only those who oppose through violent means.

The Greatest traitor against the country as a whole...I can't think of any right now too tired.

DeVore wrote: »

Hi,

Mate of mine and I were kicking around this question yesterday over a few pints, as you do! So, we both thought we'd ask on Boards, and I figured this was the best place.

So, everyone is most likely aware of Mr Neary's recent activities in the banking sector.... But some might need a recap on this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermot_MacMurrough


So, what do you think? Vote in the poll and/or post here. Its just a bit of fun...

DeV.

As regards the MacMurroughs there aren't any anymore; they reverted to Murphy as well as Kavanagh and Kinsella who are descended from Diarmuid's sons.

The Fianna Fail quadumvirate gets my vote or should that be Quadumvirus?

My name is URL wrote: »

Anyone that lived here during the boom years and made their fortunes, and are now abandoning the country rather than staying to try and improve it

Those are the real traitors

Sure they'll say 'well what can we do' and 'I'm not going to hang around to pay of NAMA hurrhurr'.. but they're cowardly cop outs, and the kind of single minded, money driven people that got the country into this mess in the first place.

No, they aren't traitors. Some may be criminals, others just cnuts, but they are not traitors. They are oppertunists who are getting off a sinking ship. As people they suck, but still, not traitors.

The Government is simply incompetant, criminally so I would argue, but again not traitors.

The Bankers are simply criminals. But not traitors.

By the time my eyes caught "Neary" in the thread title, my brain went into superdrive and I thought "what about MacMurrough" before I got to the end of the line.

However, I'm a big fan of never ascribing to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Given that MacMurrough's first action was to plead with Henry II to allow him to hire mercenaries to retake his kingdom and then the high kingship and after defeat his second action was to plead for help from Strongbow for some proper soldiers, pushing out to the third, which was Henry invading, moving to the fourth, which was most of the Irish kings submitting to him to halt Leinster's expansion of influence on a permanent basis and more importantly, Rory O'Connor (high king from 1166-1198) signing the Treaty of Windsor and formally recognising Henry II as Lord of Ireland to keep his own land, which even as high king he wasn't entitled to do, MacMurrough's actions were far more stupid than malicious. Lack of foresight. MacMurrough was far more vilified by historians after 1800 than he had been before. O'Connor's actions were worse than those of MacMurrough. I realise the current O'Conor Don (Desmond Roderick O'Conor), who lives in Sussex and has a claim on the Irish kingship, wouldn't be best pleased at me calling his ancestor a festering wimpy boil on Irish history who should be remembered as such but he was what he was.

Moving on to Neary, he appears to have been far better tooled for information. After all, it was all available to him on his desk, and it was his specific job to be aware of that information, read it and take appropriate action. Which he failed to do. He should be a winner on that basis maybe. Despite, again, what appears to have been rampant stupidity as oppsoed to malice. MacMurrough set into effect a series of events that culminated with the invasion of Ireland by a foreign power but his specific action didn't result in subjugation. Neary's main failing appears to have been complete non-action.

Here's where the former legal student in me steps up to the plate. Non-action is rarely a crime in my head, regardless of how abhorrent the non-action may be. Mind you, I'd have refused to pay any of the little goodies Neary got on his way out on the basis of incompetence. If I found out that he was actively complicit, he'd be a sure winner though.

We're not big on treason in Ireland. Perhaps because we fling around the term so often. Depending on your view, DeValera or Collins might have been traitors and their respective followers too. Everyone living in the South has been taunted as a traitor at various times, including on these boards, for abandoning people to the foreign rule and not caring about Cathleen's fourth green field. Provisional shinners have thrown it at the officials, the 32CSN crowd have thrown it at both, as have RSF and the provisionals have recently thown it at the still-active splits. People have been condemned from the pulpit for it and sometimes people have thrown it at the pulpit too. We're actually quite actively small on treason, in the past it's been like wedding confetti at times. It's easy to point the finger at MacMurrough (and regard him as our Benedict Arnold) or Neary but both of them were just pretty awful at what they were doing.

So despite the proposal of Neary and MacMurrough, Rory O'Connor's streets ahead of the above two in my view. Specific positive action taken that knowingly betrayed his countrymen and gave away their freedom specifically for his own benefit when he signed the Treaty of Windsor in 1185. That's treason. If it helps, he kept none of his land - the lower-level invading soldiers didn't care much for treaties and took it all without Henry II knowing much about it. Additionally he gets extra points for treasonous behaviour because no-one saw it coming. MacMurrough was a brat to his enemies and a tyrant to his subjects so at least he was behaving to type in hiring a few mercenaries. O'Connor tried to hang on to his own possessions and vassals and wilfully gave the country away as the price for retaining his own power. Top of the charts.

However, my vote doesn't even go there. For repeated, wilful, personally beneficial double dealings that earned him a few quid for his troubles, one firm vote for Leonard MacNally. Read his bio and you'll see why.


Bleh, we're now in After Hours. That's cool and more appropriate, though I fear only two people will read my exciting conclusion. I hope your surname is O'Connor or MacNally though:p

DeVore wrote: »

That reaction always confuses me.... when have I ever asked for special treatment from any Mod?
Jesus, I'm not an Ogre.... though sometimes I feel like the giant who just wanted to play but scared everyone off

DeV.

You are ruining my view that you are a dictator!

I find it hard to use the word traitor (against the state) actually. I mean, I think armed rebellion is all well and good as long as the people taking part trully believe it is for the better of the country nad they can't do it through political means.

And that is the definition of traitor in our constitution. I would consider someone a traitor if they incited an armed rebellion for personal gain rather than true belief I suppose.

Though that is a hard thing to prove.

Commiting treason against the people of Ireland is simpler for me, The Church and a number of people in the past governments have commited such deplorable acts to abuse the trust of the people of Ireland, that I would consider them traitors.

questioner wrote: »

there should be another button there called " everyone ", as in the vast vast majority of us who profiteered or reaped the benefits of others profiteering during the last ten years.

Not treason, that was willful ignorance TBH.

parker kent wrote: »

Ian Paisley

He's not an Irish citizen, therefore he can't commit treason against this country.