DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

carrolls · 17-04-2010 11:04AM

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

Goodbye OneVision.

Headline on today's indo.

Eircom’s paid-for TV project falters

Eircom’s plans for the next generation of paid-for TV is hanging by a thread after the One Vision consortium ended crucial negotiations with RTE.

This can only be good news for Irish DTT. I hope EasyTV does not go down the same road as OneVision/Boxer in regarding BBC1, BBC2, ITV and Channel 4 as pay channels. This is a surefire way of killing Irish DTT before it even begins.

BoredNaMoaner · 17-04-2010 11:22AM

Hmm.
The text on the front page of the Indo differs slightly from the actual article.

One Vision consortium ended crucial negotiations
One Vision consortium apparently reached the end of the line

The article does not state that One Vision are actually gone, and hints of possible legal action. I suspect that it could be difficult to shake them off and this saga has a little more to run.

17-04-2010 11:39AM

Only in Ireland could you have one of the bidders in control of the negotiations with the rival bidders...

Competition authority anyone?

European law anyone?

This farce is best hushed up at this stage and like Bazil told polly never to mention the war ...
Embarrassments are best swept under the carpet.

Time to get on with saorview on one mux and use the remaining muxes around the country for infills.

scath · 17-04-2010 12:00PM

carrolls wrote: »

This can only be good news for Irish DTT. I hope EasyTV does not go down the same road as OneVision/Boxer in regarding BBC1, BBC2, ITV and Channel 4 as pay channels. This is a surefire way of killing Irish DTT before it even begins.

Nope. No pay DTT is not good for Irish DTT. The whole idea of pay DTT is to assist RTÉ in the DTT investment process in helping it break even on the network upgrade. If pay DTT doesn't happen then it will have to come out of RTÉ reserves which inevitably down the line affects programming investment so nope.

Agree with you having BBC etc as pay will not help DTT. But then again the combo option is there. Also don't understimate Sky going the Sky Picnic Ireland here, just to sign up those who have difficulty in apartment blocks regading a dish. Is an alternative way for Sky to gather subs and challenge UPC.That said the numbers, hardly justify the platform carriage costs. So different to UK proposition I suppose.

I expect Easy TV to take up the offer and move quickly on it. Would always appear a problem once RTÉ networks were one of the consortium, why would they want to make it easy for someone else given they want it. For Liberty Global its a way to challenge sky further so I suspect their interest still there but may argue lower DTT spectrum charges from Comreg as last one standing!

Getting close to the suggested thread change time (ie One Vision Gone, Easy TV awarded ...., will they launch), but I suspect if the BAI call time on One Vision that it could end up in court. I suspect the BAI should have been setting the multiplexing fees, security etc from the start before the beauty contest started revising it due to economic situation. That way would have short cut the whole long delays. That said the BAI only had that power over RTÉ since October last. They should have stepped in at that stage. Now they leave themselves open to challenge as to whether RTÉ's charges are fair, and in reflection of charges elsewhere. It should be the BAI setting those, in conjuction with RTÉ's opinion, just as Comreg does with Eircom. This is a further reason why the argument of Simon Coveney regarding 1 regulator makes sense. Because Comreg have experience of dealing with monopoly situations and are backed up by EU legislation. The BCI staff should have been subsumed into a division of ComReg.

Regarding the marketing budget, RTÉ has to play its part as does the DCENR. It can't all be left to the Pay operator. That isn't fair. I think the best hope for pay DTT is to have 1 mux FTA and 2 pay. For RTÉ's muxes you're talking HD versions. But if we went T2 there'd be spare capacity. Anyhow that argument is already put to bed before.

SPDUB · 17-04-2010 10:52PM

scath wrote: »

Regarding the marketing budget, RTÉ has to play its part as does the DCENR. It can't all be left to the Pay operator.

The problem with marketing wasn't with RTE

carrolls · 18-04-2010 11:07AM

scath wrote: »

Nope. No pay DTT is not good for Irish DTT.

Thats not actually what I said.
There should be a pay tv aspect to Irish DTT, but success of Irish DTT cannot be dependent on the pay tv aspect. The pay tv model should be a top-up tv model that gives viewers access to premium content such as HD sports, movies and arts. Getting people to fork out €10-€20 a month for content that is already freely available to 90% of the population is an idiotic business plan.
If EasyTV offer the same or a similar model to what OneVision were proposing, failure is the only outcome.

BoredNaMoaner · 18-04-2010 11:52AM

So much for the reports of an imminent signing of contracts reported a few months ago. From the information gleamed from the Indo report it seems that the positions were never even close.

In response to demands for the 20 million Euro upfront bond, One Vision had the following to say to the Minister:

"Our offer is this -- nothing. Not even the fee for the DTT license, which we would appreciate if you would put up personally."

Eamon will wake up one day to find an uprooted tree in his bed.

Sam Russell · 18-04-2010 01:08PM

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

So much for the reports of an imminent signing of contracts reported a few months ago. From the information gleamed from the Indo report it seems that the positions were never even close.

In response to demands for the 20 million Euro upfront bond, One Vision had the following to say to the Minister:

"Our offer is this -- nothing. Not even the fee for the DTT license, which we would appreciate if you would put up personally."

Eamon will wake up one day to find an uprooted tree in his bed.

If that is true, why didn't the IBA pull the plug straight away. Clearly that is not bona fide negotiations. It is an insult if that was the style of the 'discussions'.

I hope that Liberty can negotiate with RTE quickly and get a full launch in October, if not sooner.

Sponge Bob · 18-04-2010 01:57PM

A €20m bond does not cost €20m any more than €1m worth of insurance costs €1m. eircom is a dismal risk and would have paid quite a lot for that bond, tv3 is not much better , setanta was bankrupt last time I remember. eircom jiggied the consortium shareholdings last year to get better T&C's on the bond.

RTE are unlikely to default _on themselves_ and Liberty have OK ratings considering and this would mean that such a bond should be cheaper to take out commercially.

It would certainly be highly invidious to eircom were RTENL not to charge the €20m bond to all consortia ALTHOUGH it may well be that the rest of the network upgrade will not even cost €20m....most of the money has already been spent I think.

Sam Russell · 18-04-2010 03:13PM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

....most of the money has already been spent I think.

That is not the point, RTENL still have to pay for the network, and get return for that money. If Onevision were to go bust in a year or two, they would leave a lot of debts behind, that is what the bond is for, not to pay for the network. RTE would be left to clear up the resulting mess.

18-04-2010 03:53PM

I think what RTE might have been looking for was an actual €20 mill as opposed to an insurance promise in the event of default.
A non refundable deposit if you will..

Do ye seriously think any insurance company would provide cover for this farce going bust at a commercially viable premium?

icdg · 18-04-2010 10:14PM

I would have serious misgivings about awarding a pay-DTT contract to Easy TV. UPC already have a national pay-TV platform in terms of Cable/MMDS, it is actually in their interest to see pay-DTT fail. As for RTÉ I don't think our national public service broadcaster should also be involved in a pay-TV platform. There are so many conflicts of interest involved in the Easy TV consortium that I would prefer to see either (a) the competition re-run or (b) pay-TV given up on and the multiplexes used for free to air services.

If the BAI are to go down the road of Easy TV, it should be on strict conditions that it be operated completely seperate from UPC, that no common directors or staff be allowed between UPC and Easy TV, that they not be allowed share premises, and that content negotiations be completely seperate (ie that UPC and Easy TV should not be allowed form a cartel for the purposes of negotating with channel operators).

Kristopherus · 18-04-2010 10:31PM

I agree with you ICDG. But I would like to see UPC go on DTT with their MMDS service. That would give the MMDS customers the ability to have PVR digital services, something that UPC either currently cannot or will not provide at present.

18-04-2010 10:41PM

Kristopherus wrote: »

I agree with you ICDG. But I would like to see UPC go on DTT with their MMDS service. That would give the MMDS customers the ability to have PVR digital services, something that UPC either currently cannot or will not provide at present.

The reason they won't is that the standard UPC DVR hardware has a DVB-C tuner while ex-Chorus MMDS uses DVB-T. So putting the MMDS service on DTT wouldn't help in any way.

The Cush · 19-04-2010 01:41AM

icdg wrote: »

I would have serious misgivings about awarding a pay-DTT contract to Easy TV. UPC already have a national pay-TV platform in terms of Cable/MMDS, it is actually in their interest to see pay-DTT fail. As for RTÉ I don't think our national public service broadcaster should also be involved in a pay-TV platform. There are so many conflicts of interest involved in the Easy TV consortium that I would prefer to see either (a) the competition re-run or (b) pay-TV given up on and the multiplexes used for free to air services.

If the BAI are to go down the road of Easy TV, it should be on strict conditions that it be operated completely seperate from UPC, that no common directors or staff be allowed between UPC and Easy TV, that they not be allowed share premises, and that content negotiations be completely seperate (ie that UPC and Easy TV should not be allowed form a cartel for the purposes of negotating with channel operators).

I disagree on your first point, the two organisations are already involved in broadcasting, network transmission and pay television and are the best possible chance right now to roll out commercial DTT. Re tendering would add a further 12-18 months (or longer) to the process.

On your second point I agree, UPC have already been down the Competition Authority route with the Chorus/NTL merger. I'm sure appropriate conditions could be put in place by the Authority considering UPC is not a majority shareholder. Neither organisation was prohibited from tendering for the commercial multiplexes two years ago. The other two consortia were placed first and second in the process and got their chance to operate the service. Time to move on.

Whether RTÉ can afford it is another question, up to €70 million to complete the network rollout, the costs associated with creating EasyTV, their share of the bond and transmission costs (I know it may be moving money from A to B to A, but EasyTV will be operated as a seperate company) and of course the marketing costs. UPC (aka Liberty Global) should have no problem meeting their 50% share.

If the BAI reject OneVision's bid I can't see a posssible legal challenge being successful if RTÉNL's contract conditions were the same for Boxer, OneVision and EasyTV.

Kristopherus wrote: »

I agree with you ICDG. But I would like to see UPC go on DTT with their MMDS service. That would give the MMDS customers the ability to have PVR digital services, something that UPC either currently cannot or will not provide at present.

I see your point but DTT will not have the same capacity as MMDS.

Sam Russell · 19-04-2010 09:37AM

If UPC had to yield analogue MMDS and substitute it with DTT, that would make sense. UPC should also be required to yield spectrum from MMDS.

UPC should be allowed to mingle the two operations if they give up MMDS spectrum. RTE are also part of the consortium, so they have to contribute, and if UPC can give much to reduce setup costs, it will benefit RTE and thus the taxpayer/licence payer.

19-04-2010 12:02PM

As I said earlier.
Upc moving to dtt would cost them more which is not a runner in the current or any environment.
They would be moving their existing customers onto it and have to replace all their stb's and give them less channels to boot.

So thats preposterous.

Also preposterous is the situation that RTE via easy tv have an ear at both sides of the table when it comes to negotiating carriage.

Thats bound to be in breach of competition law.

mike65 · 19-04-2010 12:06PM

From a practical POV does any of this matter, will the analogue set-up just carry on until whenever under no real pressure to switch over?

ftakeith · 19-04-2010 12:11PM

mike65 wrote: »

From a practical POV does any of this matter, will the analogue set-up just carry on until whenever under no real pressure to switch over?

I have a mvsion 300 combo receiver
So the fta mux would suit me alongside my freesat satellite
so when DTT begins here in Dublin, I'll just add the irish digital channels to my favourite channels
I would have 34 decent channels

At least I am ready for irish digital switchover

rabbitsears · 19-04-2010 01:22PM

Erm, there are FTA digital terrestrial channels already available in Dublin. They might be tests but they are still available! You just need to plug in a suitable aerial aimed at Kippure or Three Rock.

I can get the FTA DVB-T mpeg-4 tests fine where I am with a bent coat hanger hanging out of the aerial socket.

ftakeith · 19-04-2010 01:26PM

rabbitsears wrote: »

Erm, there are FTA digital terrestrial channels already available in Dublin. They might be tests but they are still available! You just need to plug in a suitable aerial aimed at Kippure or Three Rock.

I can get the FTA DVB-T mpeg-4 tests fine where I am with a bent coat hanger hanging out of the aerial socket.

I also have the tests on my combo receiver

I am talking about Irish DTT live

scath · 20-04-2010 03:26PM

ftakeith wrote: »

I also have the tests on my combo receiver

I am talking about Irish DTT live

Well then that should be the case, that you'll receive the live channels the same as the tests. Why would you not. But really that is down to near the time and whether RTÉ NL stick with T1 & MPEG4. We've debated that at length here and many posters don't wish us to conjecture any further on it. Strong chance they'll stick with the test spec for 5 years and then switch over to T2. That said, given that any set top boxes going in for testing some will most likely be T2, MPEG4 so they could if they wanted make the change. But they may prefer to just let it happen that people by Freeview HD TVs and set top boxes or what you have and leave it afew years and just switch. But as people buy new TVs there won't be that much switching now that the new boxes will come on stream over the next 2 years and get cheaper

rpm1966 · 20-04-2010 03:38PM

How long are we likely to have to wait for TVs to be on the market in the ROI that include decoding for reception of:

FreeSat
Irish DTT
FTA Satellite channels

Do they currently exist?

I would prefer not to have to buy a STB but it appears that I'm going to have to wait for ages for a iDTV with all that stuff in it.

Realistically, are we all going to need STBs anyway - even those of us that only want the free stuff.

Sam Russell · 20-04-2010 03:48PM

I think the Sony Freesat TV nearly gets there, and the new batch of Freeview HD sets come close, and if they produce a Freesat/ Freeview HD combo, then that will do everything you could wish for, as long as they do not disable the Freesat when Ireland is set as the country code. But I could live with that, I think.

rpm1966 · 20-04-2010 04:01PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the Sony Freesat TV nearly gets there, and the new batch of Freeview HD sets come close, and if they produce a Freesat/ Freeview HD combo, then that will do everything you could wish for, as long as they do not disable the Freesat when Ireland is set as the country code. But I could live with that, I think.

When you say "nearly gets there", does that mean it does UK Freeview with FreeSat but wouldn't handle MPEG 4 Irish DTT? I suspect that a UK sourced Panasonic TXL37G10 will do the same.

pa990 · 20-04-2010 04:16PM

saw an ad on tv earlier, only caught the end of it.
It was for a panasonic, that had both a Freeview HD and Freesat HD tuner

d8player · 20-04-2010 04:24PM

The Panasonic G20 and V20 ranges have both Freesat and MPEG4 DVB-T

JDxtra · 20-04-2010 04:26PM

pa990 wrote: »

saw an ad on tv earlier, only caught the end of it.
It was for a panasonic, that had both a Freeview HD and Freesat HD tuner

They were not demonstrating a specific model with combined receivers - just that they have Freeview HD and Freesat HD capable televisions.

d8player · 20-04-2010 04:29PM

JDxtra wrote: »

They were not demonstrating a specific model with combined receivers - just that they have Freeview HD and Freesat HD capable televisions.

The G20 can receive both Freesat and Freeview

pa990 · 20-04-2010 05:23PM

JDxtra wrote: »

They were not demonstrating a specific model with combined receivers - just that they have Freeview HD and Freesat HD capable televisions.

I'm pretty sure that the ad mentioned "dual tuner"
Thus it being able to recieve both formats

DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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